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DravenCarey
06-12-2012, 02:32 AM
Hello everyone, my name is Jon and I'm new to the site. I've got history with lifting, just never let it stick long term. That said, my current problem is that I've started a weight training routine that is just taking way too long. I took a fellow's advice and changed to a new routine where everything is 5 sets of 5 reps (big lifts like squat, deadlift, bench/military press and supplementary lifts like arm curls, leg extensions, shrugs, etc... [with very few exceptions, some have higher reps depending on the lift]) with the goal of getting maximum strength gains. I figured, well hell, why not. I've done conventional splits and 4 sets of 10 for long enough, let's try something new. My story is this: I'm a discus thrower and will be moving on to the local University where I will try out for the team and hopefully be a contender. I know my strength is my weakest point and I need to fix that immediately so I'll be spending from now until January fixing that problem.
I've come to these forums in the hopes of getting some advice as to the best, most efficient ways of making strength gains and maintaining athleticism (size is nice, but I care far more for strength). Here is my current routine, and again, pretty much everything is in 5 sets of 5 reps. It's currently taking me upwards of 2-2.5 hrs to complete my exercise (I think the 2.5 hour ones are just me taking too long on my rest cycles between sets). Now, I don't have any problem sticking it out and going for 2-2.5 hrs however all the reading I've done is saying that's useless and the work is hardly affecting me positively (if at all) and I'd just like to get the advice of those more experienced. Any and all knowledgeable help is appreciated, thanks a ton for taking the time to look this over. =================================================
These are in no particular order, but I do start with my biggest "core" lifts then work my way down based on whatever stations/machines/spots are available. Some of the "home-grown" exercises have a little description to better visualize what I'm doing. =================================================

Monday:
Core Lifts- Squat (5x5), Bench Press (5x5)

Chest Exercises- Dumbbell Chest Presses (5x5), Inclined Dumbbell Chest Presses (5x5), Machine Chest Flys (5x5), Outter Grip 45lb. Plate Chest Presses (4x15), Inner Grip 45lb. Plate Chest Presses (4x15)

Back Exercises- Barbell Rows (5x5), Cable Rows (5x5), Trunk Lifts (5x5)

Triceps Exercises- Triceps Pulldown (Cable Machine) (5x5), Dips (off of a bench/platform, not full body) (5x5), Triceps Press (5x5), 3-Way Skull Crushers (5x5) (think of it as skull crushers from different angles), Triceps Kickbacks (5x5)
=================================================

Tuesday:
Core Lifts- None

Leg Exercises- Deadlifts (5x5), Leg Press (5x5), Hamstring Curls (5x5), Calf Raises (5x5), Quad. Extensions (5x5)

Biceps Exercises- Preacher Curls with an Outter Grip (5x5), Preacher Curls with an Inner Grip (5x5), Preacher Curls, Reverse Grip (5x5), Standing Dumbbell Hammer Curls (5x5), Inclined Bench Biceps Curls, Outward (5x5), Inclined Bench Biceps Curls, Inward (5x5)

Deltoid Exercises- 90 Degree Shoulder Raises (from the hip until my forearms are parallel with the floor) (5x5), 90 Degree "Goal Post Rotations" (place my hands like I'm mimicking a football goalpost and, keeping my upper arm still, rotate my forearms and the weight until it is pointed towards the floor [or as close to that direction as I can]) (5x5), Machine Shoulder Press (5x5)

Trapezius Exercises- Barbell High Pulls (5x5), Shrugs (5x5), Shoulder Rolls (5x5)
Lats Exercies- Lat Pulldowns (5x5), "Thigh to Head Dumbbell Raises" (laying on a bench I hold dumbbells in each and with straight arms raise them from my thighs to straight "over" or behind my head and back) (5x5)

Compound Trapezius/Deltoid Exercises- "4-Way Raises/Pulls" (Combination of raises/pulls/presses, think of it as a burnout type workout) (5x5)
=================================================

Wednesday:
Core Lifts- Squat (5x5), Military Press (5x5)

Forearm Exercises- Various (6 total) Barbell/Dumbbell Curls (different grips, some going up, others down) (5x5),

Abdominal Exercises- To Be Announced (sorry, missed that day and haven't figured out what I want to do for abs yet)
=================================================

Thursday:
Core Lifts- Bench Press (5x5)

Leg Exercises- Deadlifts (5x5), Leg Press (5x5), Hamstring Curls (5x5), Calf Raises (5x5), Quad. Extensions (5x5)

Chest Exercises- Dumbbell Chest Presses (5x5), Inclined Dumbbell Chest Presses (5x5), Machine Chest Flys (5x5), Outter Grip 45lb. Plate Chest Presses (4x15), Inner Grip 45lb. Plate Chest Presses (4x15)

Back Exercises- Barbell Rows (5x5), Cable Rows (5x5), Trunk Lifts (5x5)

Triceps Exercises- Triceps Pulldown (Cable Machine) (5x5), Dips (off of a bench/platform, not full body) (5x5), Triceps Press (5x5), 3-Way Skull Crushers (5x5) (think of it as skull crushers from different angles), Triceps Kickbacks (5x5)
=================================================

Friday:
Core Lifts- Military Press (5x5), Squat (5x5)

Biceps Exercises- Preacher Curls with an Outter Grip (5x5), Preacher Curls with an Inner Grip (5x5), Preacher Curls, Reverse Grip (5x5), Standing Dumbbell Hammer Curls (5x5), Inclined Bench Biceps Curls, Outward (5x5), Inclined Bench Biceps Curls, Inward (5x5)

Deltoid Exercises- 90 Degree Shoulder Raises (from the hip until my forearms are parallel with the floor) (5x5), 90 Degree "Goal Post Rotations" (place my hands like I'm mimicking a football goalpost and, keeping my upper arm still, rotate my forearms and the weight until it is pointed towards the floor [or as close to that direction as I can]) (5x5), Machine Shoulder Press (5x5)

Trapezius Exercises- Barbell High Pulls (5x5), Shrugs (5x5), Shoulder Rolls (5x5)

Lats Exercies- Lat Pulldowns (5x5), "Thigh to Head Dumbbell Raises" (laying on a bench I hold dumbbells in each and with straight arms raise them from my thighs to straight "over" or behind my head and back) (5x5)

Compound Trapezius/Deltoid Exercises- "4-Way Raises/Pulls" (Combination of raises/pulls/presses, think of it as a burnout type workout) (5x5)
=================================================

And that's it for the week. Other stuff you may need/want to know is that I'm 21 years old, 6'4" tall, I weigh ~250lbs, and the only supplements I take are Whey Protein and Post-Workout Creatine. My current bench max is ~250lbs and my current squat max is ~300lbs. I've neglected my legs for FAR too long (3+ years) and I'm trying to make up for lost time, that's why there is some sort of leg exercise every day. Again, thank you for taking the time to read this friggin huge wall of text and hopefully offering me some suggestions as to what I can do to shorten this up (if that's even needed) or if you think this should work just fine.

Brandon Lilly
06-12-2012, 08:12 AM
You must be resting too long or something. There are three guys in my group, we do similar amounts of work and never go over an hour unless we get in our bench shirts and it's an hour and a half.

Off Road
06-12-2012, 08:28 AM
With a few warm-up sets thrown in here and there, that comes out close to 100 sets per workout. With weight changes, equipment changes, rest periods, etc., there is no way to do that effectively in an hour. No wonder it's taking you so much longer, that's a ton of work.

Most tried-and-tested 5x5 routines (like Star's) will have you doing far less work and still take around an hour to complete.

LuNa
06-12-2012, 08:48 AM
Brandon Lilly has a lot more experience than me, but to me that program looks like a lot of work. You say strength is your main goal, but for some reason on Friday you are performing one exercise for legs with 25 reps (squats), but are then doing 6 exercises for biceps (150 reps), which is only a small muscle and will have little impact for overal strength.

You mention that you are a discus thrower so your training will be specific for that goal and might include more arm work than what a Powerlifter would do. However, to me it seems very excessive.

I think that if you would do the regular 5x5 version with some specific work added for your sport, it would cut your work in half and would allow you to have shorter sessions.

Alex.V
06-12-2012, 09:09 AM
You're a thrower. 5x5, especially uber ultra high volume 5x5 isn't really what you need.

You need to be developing leg strength and explosiveness, core strength and flexibility, and upper body strength/speed.

I would HIGHLY suggest completely scrapping the workout you're doing and adopting a concurrent periodization strength scheme...

Essentially, I'd structure it with two lower body workouts a week, two upper body workouts, and one throwing specific workout.

For the two upper and lower, I would divide the days into one day designed for building maximum power and hypertrophy, and a second designed for building explosive strength.

For throwing specific, this would involve a good deal of core work, particularly rotational movements like russian twists, windshield wipers, flags... then possibly plyo/quickness work like box jumps/ lateral box jumps.

For upper, I'd focus on the bench press, push press, pendlay rows, face pulls, and JM presses. For lower, squats, power cleans, deadlifts, jammer extensions (if your gym has one) and front squats.

ZAR-FIT
06-12-2012, 12:21 PM
If you like the routine and dont mind the time i would suggest drinking a protein and carb shake during the workout. I did this with my long workouts and really benefited from it. This way you never go catabolic. I would drink 1.5 scoops of nitean + with 1 scoop of RESULTS pre-workout, during my workout, and after my workout. My energy and strength were awesome. As long as i didnt have any time constraints limiting my workout, i loved it.

ironwill727
06-12-2012, 01:06 PM
You are doing entirely too much work. Quality over quantity. You need a more structure program with progression. Focus on the big lifts like Squat, DL, Bench, Oh, Cleans, Snatches, Pullups and Rows. Let the throwing practice help you get better at your sport and let the gym make you stronger. See 5/3/1 or Westside.

DravenCarey
06-12-2012, 01:38 PM
First and foremost, thanks to everyone who took the time to read this and give their suggestions. Some of these posts I'd like to address and get more info on.


You must be resting too long or something. There are three guys in my group, we do similar amounts of work and never go over an hour unless we get in our bench shirts and it's an hour and a half.
Brandon, I certainly considered this and it very well may play a part but even on days where i felt like i really pushed the tempo it took me upwards of 2 hours and that alone makes me think i'm doing far more than I should be.


You're a thrower. 5x5, especially uber ultra high volume 5x5 isn't really what you need.

You need to be developing leg strength and explosiveness, core strength and flexibility, and upper body strength/speed.

I would HIGHLY suggest completely scrapping the workout you're doing and adopting a concurrent periodization strength scheme...

Essentially, I'd structure it with two lower body workouts a week, two upper body workouts, and one throwing specific workout.

For the two upper and lower, I would divide the days into one day designed for building maximum power and hypertrophy, and a second designed for building explosive strength.

For throwing specific, this would involve a good deal of core work, particularly rotational movements like russian twists, windshield wipers, flags... then possibly plyo/quickness work like box jumps/ lateral box jumps.

For upper, I'd focus on the bench press, push press, pendlay rows, face pulls, and JM presses. For lower, squats, power cleans, deadlifts, jammer extensions (if your gym has one) and front squats.

This, good sir, sounds exactly like something that'd be beneficial. I love the way this looks. Some questions I have are:

1.) How often would I include the core work? I remember beign told that the abs are quite resistant and can be worked almost everyday with little to no negative side effects. If this is so should I be doing all of those exercises each day?

2.) You seem like someone who's knowledgeable about throwing, what plyometrics drills would you suggest?

3.) For the upper/lower/throwing specific split would you suggest it be something like Mon/Thurs: Upper, Tues/Fri: Lower, Weds: throwing specific?

4.) Any suggestions on stuff specific to throwing the discus and hammer (i dont do shot put or javelin)?

5.) Due to an injured arm, I cant do powercleans due to the pain it causes my elbow. Think snatch would work just as good?

6.) If my gym doesnt have a jammer extension machine, any other suggestions?

7.) What's the difference between a front and back squat? I presume there's a benefit to doing both and I just don't know that benefit.

8.) Should I be looking to do all these exercises as 5x5 or something else?

9.) Lastly: You suggested that I "divide the days into one day designed for building maximum power and hypertrophy, and a second designed for building explosive strength". Are you suggestion that Mon/Tues (upper/lower) be the days I go for very heavy weight and Thurs/Fri I go for less weight and more explosiveness?

Thank you SOOOOOOOOOOO much if you take the time to help me with this it's INCREDIBLY appreciated and I think this is EXACTLY what I need to get my lifting in line with my goals.

crk
06-12-2012, 04:37 PM
Jon Cole, who's raw totals have stood as world records in the 242, 275, and 308 weight classes for the last 40 years would train 2 times a week for 6-8 hours/workout.

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2011/01/jon-cole-forgotten-legend-ron-fernando.html

not advocating this, I'm currently trying to get my workouts done faster too. just thought i'd throw this out there to see what people think since it's related to workout times.

chris mason
06-12-2012, 04:47 PM
Yep, Alex's advice is the best thing in this thread.

Your current routine borders on horrific... Waaaayyyyyy too much volume and work.

You don't need powercleans. In fact, skip O-lifts all together.

Finally, I can't believe you have ignored strength training thus far. The best throwers of all-time were all brutally strong (Udo Beyer anyone?). The fact you have been lackadaisical about strength training thus far makes me really question your commitment to the sport.

chris mason
06-12-2012, 04:51 PM
Jon Cole, who's raw totals have stood as world records in the 242, 275, and 308 weight classes for the last 40 years would train 2 times a week for 6-8 hours/workout.

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2011/01/jon-cole-forgotten-legend-ron-fernando.html

not advocating this, I'm currently trying to get my workouts done faster too. just thought i'd throw this out there to see what people think since it's related to workout times.

Cole was one of the strongest men ever, perhaps even the strongest in an overall sense. With that said, he was the freak of freaks and I would not try to emulate his training and expect similar results.

Alex.V
06-12-2012, 07:08 PM
1.) How often would I include the core work? I remember beign told that the abs are quite resistant and can be worked almost everyday with little to no negative side effects. If this is so should I be doing all of those exercises each day?
Abs, yes, but true core work shouldn't just be abs- core work should be full body movements focused around movement of the entire midsection. This will incorporate multiple muscle groups that are still being hit on other days, including your arms, chest, back, hip flexors, lower back, glutes, etc... high power russian twists will make your whole body sore, so I wouldn't do much core work on other days/

2.) You seem like someone who's knowledgeable about throwing, what plyometrics drills would you suggest?
For plyos, I'd stick with the basic explosive leg movements for now, so the more critical thing is developing quick lateral rebound to help in the spin. Lateral box jumps were always my favorite for these, but hurdle hops and lateral triple jumps are also good choices. Single leg tuck jumps off your trailing leg are good for the follow through.

3.) For the upper/lower/throwing specific split would you suggest it be something like Mon/Thurs: Upper, Tues/Fri: Lower, Weds: throwing specific?

That sounds exactly right to me. Are you planning on throwing at all in the off-season?

4.) Any suggestions on stuff specific to throwing the discus and hammer (i dont do shot put or javelin)?
Check out Jake Sullivan's journal on this site- he's a highland games guy, and a damn good hammer thrower- he may have some input. It's called Road to Pro. I never coached or threw the hammer myself, so I'd have some ideas, but I'd defer to him on this. For discus, explosive russian twists, windshield wipers, and push presses are some of the best. If you have access to a smith machine, plyometric bar tosses are excellent- set the safety stops to a few inches above chest level, load about 30% of your bench max on the bar, and do explosive throws/catches. Builds tremendous anterior deltoid strength and speed.

5.) Due to an injured arm, I cant do powercleans due to the pain it causes my elbow. Think snatch would work just as good? Absolutely, though only if your form is technically sound. Are you trained in it?

6.) If my gym doesnt have a jammer extension machine, any other suggestions? The bar tosses I mentioned are a good option. Also, try them from an incline. Do you have access to a sled/prowler at your gym?

7.) What's the difference between a front and back squat? I presume there's a benefit to doing both and I just don't know that benefit. The front squat takes the posterior chain out of the equation a bit. More quad emphasis, and also a great transition to a push press if your elbow can take it

8.) Should I be looking to do all these exercises as 5x5 or something else? I would structure your power days towards lower repetitions and max doubles or triples- reps of 8-10 as you increase poundage, once reaching 75% or greater 2-3 reps. For the hypertrophy work, 8-12 repetitions. For the speed work, 3-5 repetitions at maximum velocity with short rest periods.

9.) Lastly: You suggested that I "divide the days into one day designed for building maximum power and hypertrophy, and a second designed for building explosive strength". Are you suggestion that Mon/Tues (upper/lower) be the days I go for very heavy weight and Thurs/Fri I go for less weight and more explosiveness?Yes, though I wouldn't do two power days back to back- I'd do power/hypertrophy upper followed by speed lower, then alternate on thurs/fri. Otherwise, the focus on day two could suffer. Still, this is academic, as long as you're getting the work in, the order doesn't much matter

Thank you SOOOOOOOOOOO much if you take the time to help me with this it's INCREDIBLY appreciated and I think this is EXACTLY what I need to get my lifting in line with my goals.




No problem, good advice here from many folks so far, hopefully others will chime in with their opinions. Do check out some of the journals, especially Jake's and some of the ones labeled "pro journal". A lot of great strength athletes on this board competing at a very high level- you might find some good ideas in there

DravenCarey
06-12-2012, 07:18 PM
Yep, Alex's advice is the best thing in this thread.

You don't need powercleans. In fact, skip O-lifts all together.

Finally, I can't believe you have ignored strength training thus far. The best throwers of all-time were all brutally strong (Udo Beyer anyone?). The fact you have been lackadaisical about strength training thus far makes me really question your commitment to the sport.

I started my experiences with strength training in high school (graduated in 2009). I was a 3-sport letterman (football, wrestling, and track) and strength training was present but only really pushed for football (which was something to do between wrestling and track). Both the wrestling and track programs werent really designed to work in strength training, it was more of a "do it on your own if you want" approach. After high school i quit persueing the sport and was mostly just lifting for personal satisfaction (aiming for better physical fitness and appearance, not necessarily strength) and that always seemed to be only a semster at a time. I would lift during the semster then get lazy over summer/winter break. So, in that regard i certainly wasn't dedicated to my lifting (nor did i claim to have been). However, now that I'm again working towards my track goals (after 3 years, and about 2-3 months of current practice mind you) I've finally got a good, solid reason to motivate myself to strength training. That said, there's nothing to question about my dedication to the sport. I'm all in. It just wasn't until pretty much a few months ago that I decided I'd like to give this another shot. Hope that helps give you an idea of my mindset about the whole thing. Thanks for taking the time to read/reply.

DravenCarey
06-12-2012, 07:39 PM
Alex, YOU'RE FREAKING AMAZING. Dude, you've helped sooooo much. Here are a few answers to you're questions and some more questions about your answers lol.

"3.) For the upper/lower/throwing specific split would you suggest it be something like Mon/Thurs: Upper, Tues/Fri: Lower, Weds: throwing specific?
That sounds exactly right to me. Are you planning on throwing at all in the off-season?"

I've been throwing twice a week with my old coach. I plan to increase this to throw Mon-Fri with M/W/F being "light" days more for form and making it a bit of fun and Tues/Thurs being my heavy hitting days with alot of throws and a huge emphasis on explosiveness.

"5.) Due to an injured arm, I cant do powercleans due to the pain it causes my elbow. Think snatch would work just as good? Absolutely, though only if your form is technically sound. Are you trained in it?

Somewhat. I'm familiar with the form and I'm sure it's only a matter of time, practice, and repetition that I get it down solid. Any suggestion on what % of a given max I should start trying with?

"6.) If my gym doesnt have a jammer extension machine, any other suggestions?
The bar tosses I mentioned are a good option. Also, try them from an incline. Do you have access to a sled/prowler at your gym?"

Good question, I'm not sure. I'll find out. If they do what do you recommend?


"7.) What's the difference between a front and back squat? I presume there's a benefit to doing both and I just don't know that benefit.
The front squat takes the posterior chain out of the equation a bit. More quad emphasis, and also a great transition to a push press if your elbow can take it"

If my elbow has trouble with the weight (I've only seen a front squat done with hands crossed over the bar, but i presume you're suggesting i hold it like i am going to attempt a jerk or overhead press), should I just drop the weight and still do it, or abandon it for something like machine quad extensions? Also, a "push press" is this the same as a military press or overhead press?

"8.) Should I be looking to do all these exercises as 5x5 or something else?
I would structure your power days towards lower repetitions and max doubles or triples- reps of 8-10 as you increase poundage, once reaching 75% or greater 2-3 reps. For the hypertrophy work, 8-12 repetitions. For the speed work, 3-5 repetitions at maximum velocity with short rest periods."

I was totally following you until i got to this one lol. Lets see if i can get this right. On Monday/Friday (my heavy days) do 2-3 sets of 8-10 reps. Once i get to 75% of my max..... I'm lost here lol. For the hypertrophy days (which i thought were the power days which you first talked abou >,<) aim for 8-12 reps. But how many sets? And what about the 8-10 reps you mentioned earlier for power days (this is where i got confused because i thought the power days were my hypertrophy days lol, I could be misunderstanding the word). On Tues/Thurs (speed days) aim for 3-5 reps as fast as i can, but again, how many sets would you suggest?

Once again, thanks a ton for your help. Out of three forums you've definitely given me the most/best insight. You rock!

Alex.V
06-13-2012, 08:13 AM
Sorry mate, I blame the IPA.

So for your power/hypertrophy days, you'd essentially be working two goals at once- development of maximum strength (absolute force you can generate) and building of size (increasing muscular cross-sectional area, and therefore absolute force potential).

The way you accomplish the first- yes, typically high weight, low repetition. Stick to your big compound lifts for this type of work, warming up with light weight in that particular lift, and slowly increasing poundage with doubles or singles until you hit a max. You could go Westside style and rotate this main lift weekly, or (since your goal isn't to increase these lifts, but really just increase strength overall), simply focus on one lift for a few weeks, rotate in the next one, and so forth. For this, I would say stick to the back squat, front squat, deadlift, flat bench press, barbell row, and JM press.. all lifts with relatively low technical requirements that engage multiple muscle groups.

For the remainder of the workout, you would do hypertrophy work, or more typical "bodybuilding" type exercises. As a thrower, you want to develop a bit more size in your posterior chain and shoulder girdle, so I would focus on higher repetition (8-12) good mornings, stiff legged deadlifts, incline press, and face pulls/shrugs- still compound exercises, but more specifically focused on specific muscle groups.

For your speed/dynamic days, the emphasis is development of speed-strength- the ability to generate maximum force against submaximal weight quickly and effectively. This is also lower repetition- if you think about it, a throw is a single repetition- more than 3-5 repetitions and your form starts to suffer, and velocity goes down. For a thrower, it makes more sense to keep loads at less than 60% or so of max (less for upper... I'd recommend around 40-50% for non-shot throwers), since you'll be primarily exerting force against your own body and relatively light objects. Warm up with just the bar, then perform rapid but controlled doubles or triples at a chosen weight. For this, here's where you do your push presses (explosive military press with leg drive at the start), pendlay rows, close grip bench press, incline plyometric bar tosses, box squats, hang cleans.

As for number of sets- don't worry too much about this. For speed work, pick 6 and go from there, but your objective is maximum performance during each set. If your form begins to break down or you start moving slowly, GO HOME. Practice makes fuck all. Perfect practice makes perfect. If your speed and form break down, you're getting zero benefit from the workout. Every time you walk into the gym, or walk out onto the field, ask yourself what you're going to have specifically improved when you walk out that door. Make that your only goal. If you're no longer working towards that goal, then it's time to leave.

A few other points:

-Don't substitute leg extensions for front squats. If you can't do front squats, stick to back squats. Leg extension doesn't really translate to improved performance in much beyond leg extensions.

-Snatches- Start VERY light. I'm not a fan of anybody doing oly lifts without a coach, but provided you know the basics, you can certainly get some benefit working on technique. Careful with your rotators, and stick with a weight around 40-50% of what you think you could realistically manage as a max, and use them to practice that midrange acceleration. Don't spend a huge amount of time on these, though, unless you can find a coach to work with you on them.

And no problem, man. I've learned a hell of a lot from this site, too. I think it's got the highest signal to noise ratio of any board out there. Like I said, though, seriously check out those journals. If you want see how some of the most brutally strong guys in the world train, it's a good place to go.

RhodeHouse
06-13-2012, 11:54 AM
WAY toomuch work, as mentioned above. As a thrower you could do 2 different set-ups.

1. 3 days a week - full body. This would allow you timeto spend throwing. The only way to get good at that is to practice it all the time.

2. 4 days a week - 2 upper and 2 lower. I don't believe that any explosive (DE work) you do in the weight room will translate to the throws. I would work repetiton method. There's no need dfor athletes to do ME work. It just doesn't translate to athletics.

Squat, Deadlift, Cleans, Bench, Military Press, Pull-ups, Bent Rows - anything other tha these are really a waste of time. You can play around with some curls and fluff like that, but it really is useless when your goal is to prepare to be an athlete.

DravenCarey
06-13-2012, 02:38 PM
Once again, Alex, you're freaking amazing. Some final questions before I feel comfortable setting a new routine up:




The way you accomplish the first- yes, typically high weight, low repetition. Stick to your big compound lifts for this type of work, warming up with light weight in that particular lift, and slowly increasing poundage with doubles or singles until you hit a max.

What do you mean increasing poundage with doubles or singles until I've hit a max?

Simply focus on one lift for a few weeks, rotate in the next one, and so forth. For this, I would say stick to the back squat, front squat, deadlift, flat bench press, barbell row, and JM press.

What do you mean exactly by focusing on one lift and rotating to the next one? Mind going a bit more in depth (my knowledge of actual lifting terminology is incredibly weak so it gets hard to follow sometimes).

Warm up with just the bar, then perform rapid but controlled doubles or triples at a chosen weight.

Same as before, just not sure what ya mean with the doubles or triples.

As for number of sets- don't worry too much about this. For speed work, pick 6 and go from there, but your objective is maximum performance during each set.

Being the person I am it's hard not to worry about it haha. I like to have everything planned and know ahead of time atleast some perimeters so that I'm not wasting time (like i had been previously). But here's what I've gathered so lets see if I'm on the right track so for speed days do about 6 sets of 6 reps? (I'm reading it as 6 sets from this post and you suggested about 6 reps per set in the previous post). And for heavy days aim for 5 sets of 5 reps (taking that from the popular Powerlifts 5x5 program, seems like all the same exercises more or less) and do my supplementary lifts on that day as "x" sets of about 10 (again, no idea how many sets i should be aiming for)?

DravenCarey
06-13-2012, 06:46 PM
Well after posting on three different forums this is what I've come up with, tell me what you guys think.

Monday (Upper Body- Maximum Strength):
Upper Body- Bench Press (5x5), Military Press w/ Smith Machine (5x5), Cable Rows (5x5), JM presses (5x5), Face Pulls (3x10)

Plyometrics- Lateral Box Jumps (3x6), Forward Double Leg Jumps (3x6), Single Leg Tuck Jumps (3x6), Plyometric Bar Tosses w/ Smith Machine (3x6)


Tuesday (Lower Body- Explosiveness):
Lower Body- Box Squat (4x6), Snatch, Deadlifts (4x6), Front Squat (w/ Jerk?) (4x6), Hang Cleans (give it a try) (4x6)

Core Work- Russian Twists (3x10), Windshield Wipers (3x10), Weighted Back Extensions (3x10), Weighted Side Bends (3x10), Sit-ups (3x10)


Wednesday (Throwing Specific Exercises):
Throwing Specific- TBA


Thursday (Upper Body- Explosiveness):
Upper Body- Close Grip Bench Press (4x6), Military Press w/ Smith Machine (4x6), Pendlay/Barbell Rows (4x6), Face Pulls (4x6), JM presses (4x6)

Plyometrics- Lateral Box Jumps (3x6), Forward Double Leg Jumps (3x6), Single Leg Tuck Jumps (3x6), Plyometric Bar Tosses w/ Smith Machine (3x6)


Friday (Lower Body- Maximum Strength):
Lower Body- Squat (5x5), Snatch (5x5), Deadlifts (5x5), Front Squat (w/ Jerk?) (5x5)

Core Work- Russian Twists (3x10), Windshield Wipers (3x10), Weighted Back Extensions (3x10), Weighted Side Bends (3x10), Sit-ups (3x10)

vdizenzo
06-14-2012, 05:28 AM
Quick question, have you been making progress on this program?

DravenCarey
06-14-2012, 01:40 PM
Quick question, have you been making progress on this program?

Are you asking for the most recent workout plan or the one at the top of this post? If you're asking about the most recent one (the one above ur post) I've just started and it's too early to tell (but i expect good things). If you're asking about the one at the top I've had some success with similar setups in the past but I dont think those results will be nearly as good as the ones from this most recent setup.

DravenCarey
06-14-2012, 11:52 PM
I'm scratching front squat and hang cleans off the list due to my elbow. Any good suggestions for replacements?

DravenCarey
06-16-2012, 12:19 PM
Hey there everyone, wanted to take the time to say thank you for all the help you've given me so far. I think I'm just about happy with the setup I've got, mind giving me your opinions on it? Here it is:

Monday (Upper Body- Maximum Strength):
Upper Body- Bench Press (5x5), Military Press w/ Smith Machine (5x5), Pendlay Rows (5x5), Dips (5x5), Face Pulls (4x10)
Plyometrics- Lateral Box Jumps (3x6), Forward Double Leg Jumps (3x6), Single Leg Tuck Jumps (3x6), Plyometric Bar Tosses w/ Smith Machine (3x6)


Tuesday (Lower Body- Explosiveness):
Lower Body- Box Squat (8x3), Snatch (8x3), Deadlifts (8x3), Goodmornings (8x3), Stiff-legged Deadlifts (8x3)
Core Work- Russian Twists (3x10), Windshield Wipers (3x10), Weighted Back Extensions (3x10), Weighted Side Bends (3x10), Sit-ups (3x10)


Wednesday (Flexibility):
Flexibility- Yoga?


Thursday (Upper Body- Explosiveness):
Upper Body- Close Grip Bench Press (8x3), Military Press w/ Smith Machine (8x3), Cable Rows (8x3), Bent Over Rows (8x3), Face Pulls (8x3),
Plyometrics- Lateral Box Jumps (3x6), Forward Double Leg Jumps (3x6), Single Leg Tuck Jumps (3x6), Plyometric Inclined Bar Tosses w/ Smith Machine (3x6)


Friday (Lower Body- Maximum Strength):
Lower Body- Squat (5x5), Snatch (5x5), Deadlifts (5x5)
Core Work- Russian Twists (3x10), Windshield Wipers (3x10), Weighted Back Extensions (3x10), Weighted Side Bends (3x10), Sit-ups (3x10)

And just one quick question: Should I be increasing my weight on every set? If so do I do this on both the heavy and the explosive days?

DravenCarey
06-18-2012, 09:38 PM
First day of workouts is done. It took me about 1 hour, 40 min to complete everything but the plyometric bar tosses (smith machines weren't available at the time, I won't save them for last anymore). Not too bad for everything I did. Didn't feel overly exhausted or tired. Looking forward to what tomorrow has, that's when it'll really count with all the leg lifts I've got setup. I did notice that it felt like I was resting a fuck-ton. Not because I needed it, but because it was suggested to take atleast 2 minutes between sets for my heavy day. If I can get my sets in with about 1 minute rest should I go for it or should I just slow it down and take the full two minutes? On the smaller stuff like Dips and Facepulls I only rested for about a minute (same with the plyometrics, which freakin sucked). Also, I was wondering about whether or not the weight I use on an explosive day is the same as the weight I'd use on a heavy day. I remember someone saying it should be like 50-60% of my 1 rep max for explosive days and start at like 65-75+% of my 1 rep max on the heavier days at the begining of the program and see where it takes me. Any input on these things?

chris mason
06-18-2012, 10:46 PM
I think you are missing the boat completely with the strength training component. In addition, your plyometric training, if you are going to use it, should be directed to your particular sport. You throw the discuss, how will lateral jumps help you? Your ability to explode is important to a very specific type of rotational motion, no? If you are going to work on explosive power work on something that as closely mimics what you need for yor sport as possible.

Strength training should be used to increase the general force production capacity of the muscles used for your sport. You then use sport specific training to work on translating that capacity to increased sporting performance.

Doing deadlifts, GMs, and stiff-legged deadlifts all in the same sessions is absolute lower back suicide...

You simply don't need that much lower back work especially for your sport.

DravenCarey
06-19-2012, 12:11 AM
Thanks for the comment and concern Chris, let me address some of what you asked about:


I think you are missing the boat completely with the strength training component. In addition, your plyometric training, if you are going to use it, should be directed to your particular sport. You throw the discuss, how will lateral jumps help you?
Lateral jumps are perfect for throwing the discus because (I'm not sure how familiar you are with the motion so this might be confusing) but as I reach my power position I have to shift my body weight from my right leg to my left leg (I'm a right handed thrower) with as much exertable force as possible before reversing. The motion is similar with the lateral box jump with the exception that I'm using both feet at the same time rather than 1 foot quicly followed by the other.

Your ability to explode is important to a very specific type of rotational motion, no?
Not entirely. There is some explosion directed in a rotational orbit at the begining of the throw (this is typically the "slow" portion of the slow and generally isn't amazingly explosive until you get to the highest forms of the competition). Now, I'm fairly quick out of the back (being right handed I load up a vast majority of my momentum on my left leg just before I start my orbit) therefore any explosive rotational work you can think of (primarily involving the left leg) would be incredibly valued. That aside, the most important portion of the throw happens when the thrower reaches their power position. In this position you will see that the direction of force is no longer rotational, it's lateral; moving forward (thus producing the throw itself). That is why I've chosen to keep these suggestions on these plyometric drills. I can 100% see where they translate into a quicker, more explosive, and more powerful throw.

Strength training should be used to increase the general force production capacity of the muscles used for your sport. You then use sport specific training to work on translating that capacity to increased sporting performance.
That's precisely what this routine will do. Throws are pretty much 75% legs and 25% upper body. My legs are certainly my weakest area due to years of neglect/stupidity. The major muscles involved in the discus throw are the calves/quads/hamstrings/glutes (legs in general really), the deltoids, and the core of the thrower (biceps/triceps/chest all play partial roles).

Doing deadlifts, GMs, and stiff-legged deadlifts all in the same sessions is absolute lower back suicide...
I have just about no doubt on this. Please keep in mind this is a completely preliminary routine that I'll have to test out and further tweak. There's no doubts I'll be making changes to it. I've never done a Goodmorning and will prolly get my ass kicked by it, but I want to experience it and how it affects my body in tandem with the other things I've got listed. I'll then adjust that so that I'm doing it on another day. It's all a work in progress that will require me to experience it and see what I think. Just like people telling me it's still too much volume. I somewhat saw that today when it still took me almost 2 hours (would have taken about 1 hr 50 min if I had done my last lift). I'll have to adjust that. It's just a matter of finding out which exercises I like the most and I can see being the most useful to me (that I'm capable of doing, I have a few injury related limitations).

RhodeHouse
06-19-2012, 08:59 AM
You should stop posting on here and just do whatever you want. You clearly think you know what you're doing and when people who actually know what they're talking about tell you what you don't want to hear, you have something to say.

It's abundantly clear that you have no idea how to train, especially regarding throwing.

Off Road
06-19-2012, 09:06 AM
Guys are going to believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do. They will find a way to convince themselves...
I personally think you are making things too complicated, I'd just focus on getting stronger. But I am not a thrower so what do I know?

DravenCarey
06-19-2012, 02:53 PM
You should stop posting on here and just do whatever you want. You clearly think you know what you're doing and when people who actually know what they're talking about tell you what you don't want to hear, you have something to say.

It's abundantly clear that you have no idea how to train, especially regarding throwing.
Half of this is correct, and half isn't. You're right I dont have a damned clue on how to train effectively for throwing, that's why I'm here. You're wrong that I simple disregard what everyone says in favor of my own thoughts. My routine has changed DRASTICALLY from what it was, and certainly for the better. My posts in response to others like Chris aren't to tell them that I know everything (I surely don't) it's to clarify to them the questions in their post. I've been tracking this topic on 3 forums and taking advice from everyone who seems to have knowledge of lifting in regards to throwing as well as strength training in general. This routine is 100% subject to change and everything in it makes perfectly good sense as to how it'll translate into a throw. I'm happy with the exercises in the routine (that doesn't mean I won't be removing or adjusting some of them). However, I'm not 100% confident on the smaller things that can certainly make a difference (like the sets/reps on some things, how much weight to use on both strength and explosive days in relation to my max, and other small things). I've yet to disregard anything someone has said. I may have responded to it with the purpose of better understanding what they mean, where they're coming from, or simply their view on what they've said.


Guys are going to believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do. They will find a way to convince themselves...
I personally think you are making things too complicated, I'd just focus on getting stronger. But I am not a thrower so what do I know?
I'm with you for the most part. It's only complicated because I'm new to all this and I'm trying to learn and better understand. I am focused on getting strong and I'm just getting as much good advice on how to reach that goal (there's been atleast 40 people giving me different suggestions and comments). I'm taking the wealth of knowledge that has been presented to me and trying to combine it in the most effective way possible.

RhodeHouse
06-20-2012, 05:22 PM
Half of this is correct, and half isn't. You're right I dont have a damned clue on how to train effectively for throwing, that's why I'm here. You're wrong that I simple disregard what everyone says in favor of my own thoughts. My routine has changed DRASTICALLY from what it was, and certainly for the better. My posts in response to others like Chris aren't to tell them that I know everything (I surely don't) it's to clarify to them the questions in their post. I've been tracking this topic on 3 forums and taking advice from everyone who seems to have knowledge of lifting in regards to throwing as well as strength training in general. This routine is 100% subject to change and everything in it makes perfectly good sense as to how it'll translate into a throw. I'm happy with the exercises in the routine (that doesn't mean I won't be removing or adjusting some of them). However, I'm not 100% confident on the smaller things that can certainly make a difference (like the sets/reps on some things, how much weight to use on both strength and explosive days in relation to my max, and other small things). I've yet to disregard anything someone has said. I may have responded to it with the purpose of better understanding what they mean, where they're coming from, or simply their view on what they've said.


I'm with you for the most part. It's only complicated because I'm new to all this and I'm trying to learn and better understand. I am focused on getting strong and I'm just getting as much good advice on how to reach that goal (there's been atleast 40 people giving me different suggestions and comments). I'm taking the wealth of knowledge that has been presented to me and trying to combine it in the most effective way possible.

And here's a huge problem. You're getting information from way too many sources. 40 different people all telling you that they are right. Instead of asking people who don't throw, probably aren't very strong in the first place and who, themselves, probably have no idea what they're doing, why not google a thrower's lifting routine? I'm sure they are out there. I train college athletes and I can tell you throwers don't train like your program, at all.

Here's a hint - Nothing you do in the weight room will make you a better thrower, EVER! All it will do is make you stronger. The technique and skills involved in throwing (not plyometric drills - actual throwing) will make you a better thrower.

DravenCarey
06-21-2012, 04:06 PM
Here's a hint - Nothing you do in the weight room will make you a better thrower, EVER! All it will do is make you stronger. The technique and skills involved in throwing (not plyometric drills - actual throwing) will make you a better thrower.

Yea I'm with ya about all the people giving me advice. But this routine was brainstormed with the help of a few ex-throwers on these different forums. And quite contrarily, most of the video's I watch on throwing related lifting involve most of these exercises (some of cleans which I can't do because of my arm) or some variant of these exercises. I throw 3-5 times a week so I'm not relying on lifting to help me throw. I'm relying on lifting to help me throw further.

Travis Bell
06-21-2012, 08:26 PM
Rhodes is pointing out that being a better thrower and throwing farther are two different things is all. And he's right.

Look either you want to edit your routine or you don't. There's been a lot of high quality advice given in here.

chris mason
06-21-2012, 09:12 PM
Here's a hint - Nothing you do in the weight room will make you a better thrower, EVER! All it will do is make you stronger. The technique and skills involved in throwing (not plyometric drills - actual throwing) will make you a better thrower.

Hey, I think I said that...

chris mason
06-21-2012, 09:15 PM
FYI, lateral jumps using both feet and switching the loading from one foot to the other in your throwing motion have almost no correlation from the standpoint of your nervous system, so no, lateral jumps aren't going to do anything for you...

DravenCarey
06-22-2012, 12:32 AM
Rhodes is pointing out that being a better thrower and throwing farther are two different things is all. And he's right.

Look either you want to edit your routine or you don't. There's been a lot of high quality advice given in here.
Sure, there's a difference between being a better thrower and throwing farther. However, the point is irrelevant to the topic. Not only am I already throwing 4-5 days a week, I've asked for help that will assist me in becoming a stronger, more dynamic thrower (not technique work, that's what my coach is for). And I certainly don't have a problem changing up my routine provided it makes sense to me on how it'll translate into my athletic goals (hell, just look at what I started with and what I ended up with). I can't incorperate everyone's suggestions. Everybody has a different philosophy on weight training, even more so when it applies to a sport (a sport that many have probably never done). So people shouldn't feel like I'm blowing off their advice in favor of my own hardheadedness. This routine wasn't made by me. It was made largely by an ex-thrower and it has been slowly changed and manipulated to better suit what I'm looking for. There is always room for improvement, and if after a few months I don't experience the gains I'm looking for, I'd be happy to try something else.



FYI, lateral jumps using both feet and switching the loading from one foot to the other in your throwing motion have almost no correlation from the standpoint of your nervous system, so no, lateral jumps aren't going to do anything for you...
Wild guess that you've never thrown huh? At the end of the throw, the thrower uses BOTH legs to thrust laterally. The shifting of weight from one leg to the other (when done correctly) lasts for about .25 seconds, if that. It's incredibly quick. So quick that most people wouldn't even know it happens. With that in mind it's important for a thrower to work on having a dynamic leg explosion/extension which is the entire purpose of those lateral jumps.

patricky
06-22-2012, 12:40 AM
Why are you getting so defensive?
I saw both routines you posted. Both are garbage especially for someone lifting to improve a sport.

Something I've learnt in my years of lifting. DON'T try and make your own routines until you are advanced, even then it's probably better for most people to stick with one of the popular ones.

RhodeHouse
06-22-2012, 09:24 AM
Sure, there's a difference between being a better thrower and throwing farther. However, the point is irrelevant to the topic. Not only am I already throwing 4-5 days a week, I've asked for help that will assist me in becoming a stronger, more dynamic thrower (not technique work, that's what my coach is for). And I certainly don't have a problem changing up my routine provided it makes sense to me on how it'll translate into my athletic goals (hell, just look at what I started with and what I ended up with). I can't incorperate everyone's suggestions. Everybody has a different philosophy on weight training, even more so when it applies to a sport (a sport that many have probably never done). So people shouldn't feel like I'm blowing off their advice in favor of my own hardheadedness. This routine wasn't made by me. It was made largely by an ex-thrower and it has been slowly changed and manipulated to better suit what I'm looking for. There is always room for improvement, and if after a few months I don't experience the gains I'm looking for, I'd be happy to try something else.



Wild guess that you've never thrown huh? At the end of the throw, the thrower uses BOTH legs to thrust laterally. The shifting of weight from one leg to the other (when done correctly) lasts for about .25 seconds, if that. It's incredibly quick. So quick that most people wouldn't even know it happens. With that in mind it's important for a thrower to work on having a dynamic leg explosion/extension which is the entire purpose of those lateral jumps.

You are clearly right, here. Your program is fantastic. I've never seen a better one put together, ever. In all my years in strength and conditioning as a coach and athlete, I'm just blown away by how good this program is. I don't know why you even bothered posting it here because it is so good. The rest of the board, including myself, who is much more experienced and stronger should scrap everything we're doinb and follow this gem.

Travis Bell
06-22-2012, 10:08 AM
^haha

Only thing I'll say is that I've worked with several collegiate throwers, all of whom threw over 54'. One threw 58'. Not world record, but not shabby either. None of them used a program like you outlined.

Chris is actually right about the lateral jumps. It doesn't matter if you are gliding or spinning. The lateral jumps won't help for the very point you made. It's such a short amount of time, you'd need to be jumping at a ridiculous speed to have it benefit you. Just working on regular box jump variations will really be more than adequate for you.

DravenCarey
06-22-2012, 02:09 PM
Why are you getting so defensive?
I saw both routines you posted. Both are garbage especially for someone lifting to improve a sport.
"A sport" is pretty generic. For throwing discus, I don't see how this routine would be garbage. It involves a majority of the lifts found in other top end routines and it incorperates some of my weaknesses so that I can focus on those. If it's garbage please tell me why so I can be better informed.

Something I've learnt in my years of lifting. DON'T try and make your own routines until you are advanced, even then it's probably better for most people to stick with one of the popular ones.
Don't know how many times I'll end up saying it but this routine was NOT designed by me. It was a conglomerate of many people who have thrown or who coach throwing.


You are clearly right, here. Your program is fantastic. I've never seen a better one put together, ever. In all my years in strength and conditioning as a coach and athlete, I'm just blown away by how good this program is. I don't know why you even bothered posting it here because it is so good. The rest of the board, including myself, who is much more experienced and stronger should scrap everything we're doinb and follow this gem.
Seriously now? When did I ever claim that this was the holy grail of lifting. Never. I've simply said that everything in it makes perfect sense to me on how it'll translate into what I'm looking for. Don't get rude because I've not taken just your advice or just the advice of someone else here. I'm trying to experiment with different things to see what works for me. This is just the first in that line of experiments. If it doesn't work out then I'll happily change it to something else that has been suggested.


^haha

Only thing I'll say is that I've worked with several collegiate throwers, all of whom threw over 54'. One threw 58'. Not world record, but not shabby either. None of them used a program like you outlined.
That's awesome (that you've got experience with someone who throws) but keep in mind that someone who does shot put does not train the same as a discus/hammer thrower. The body types are drastically different and the skillset and training needed are completely different.

Chris is actually right about the lateral jumps. It doesn't matter if you are gliding or spinning. The lateral jumps won't help for the very point you made. It's such a short amount of time, you'd need to be jumping at a ridiculous speed to have it benefit you. Just working on regular box jump variations will really be more than adequate for you.
Probably should have stated that the lateral jumps are to a box. So I guess that would be a box jump variation. The primary reason I do the lateral box jumps is to work being more dynamic with my legs (my legs are my weakpoint). So I would imagine that no matter what type of box jump I do, it'd all benefit the same. I'm no plyometrics guru but if you all know of a variation that would work better by all means let me know about it and why it is better. Thanks for those who have posted so far.

DontTakeEmOff31
06-22-2012, 04:17 PM
Hire yourself a trainer. Then spend the first session, and probably every session after that, explaining to him the right program for you to use. Listen to everything he has to say, but remember that you only want to listen to the things that you agree with, everything else he says would be garbage.

DravenCarey
06-22-2012, 07:26 PM
Well since this routine is apparently so crap-tastic, can someone tell me (specifically) what's wrong and why it's wrong. I've never been the type to simply accept what I'm told. I like to have reasonable backing on information before I feed into it. If you've got something constructive to put forward please do. If you're going to continually tell me that everything is terrible about this routine without being able to back up the information (when I ask questions/try to qualify what I've got) then please go elsewhere. I'm simply here to learn, not interested in anyone being rude or snarky. That said, have at it:



Monday (Upper Body- Maximum Strength):
Upper Body- Bench Press (5x5), Military Press w/ Smith Machine (5x5), Pendlay Rows (5x5), Dips (5x5), Face Pulls (4x10)
Plyometrics- Lateral Box Jumps (3x6), Forward Double Leg Jumps (3x6), Single Leg Tuck Jumps (3x6), Plyometric Bar Tosses w/ Smith Machine (3x6)


Tuesday (Lower Body- Explosiveness):
Lower Body- Box Squat (8x3), Snatch (8x3), Deadlifts (8x3), Stiff-legged Deadlifts (8x3)
Core Work- Russian Twists (3x10), Windshield Wipers (3x10), Weighted Back Extensions (3x10), Sit-ups (3x10)



Wednesday (Flexibility):
Flexibility- Yoga


Thursday (Upper Body- Explosiveness):
Upper Body- Close Grip Bench Press (8x3), Military Press w/ Smith Machine (8x3), Cable Rows (8x3), Bent Over Rows (8x3), Face Pulls (8x3),
Plyometrics- Lateral Box Jumps (3x6), Forward Double Leg Jumps (3x6), Single Leg Tuck Jumps (3x6), Plyometric Inclined Bar Tosses w/ Smith Machine (3x6)


Friday (Lower Body- Maximum Strength):
Lower Body- Squat (5x5), Deadlifts (5x5), Stiff-legged Deadlifts (5x5), Goodmornings (4x5-6)
Core Work- Russian Twists (3x10), Windshield Wipers (3x10), Weighted Back Extensions (3x10), Sit-ups (3x10)

Travis Bell
06-22-2012, 09:54 PM
This really has just spun its wheels long enough. If you still are not sure what is wrong with the program, look back over the thread.

For someone as young and inexperienced as you, you sure do have this all figured out. Lots of luck.