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Dave Alan
07-10-2012, 08:50 PM
I'm going to try and make this make sense so please bear with me...

On ME days (I'm talking about the bench press specifically but I suppose this would apply to all three lifts) it's understood that you work up to a max for that day on the lift chosen for that day.

Obviously the whole point of lifting at all is to get stronger or build strength - my question is: why or how does performing a max single on a given lift build strength as opposed to testing strength on the lift being performed?

Say I floor press 365 pounds - okay, now I know I can floor press 365 but how is that a building block to me getting stronger and not just a marker of where my strength is on that particular lift?

I humbly apologize in advance if this doesn't make sense or if it is over simplified. I also do not mean to be disrespectful towards the conjugate method of training, not at all. I'm just trying to understand it better. :)

ChadDresden
07-10-2012, 09:24 PM
Well, take a look at what you said first. If you floor press 365, then you can floor press 365. That is precisely it my friend. Floor press isn't a competition lift, but obviously the bench press is. You pick lifts on ME day that you know carry over to your competition lifts. So when you max out on floor press, the idea is that the 365 will carry over to make your bench press stronger. See what I mean?

So let's say you were training raw and you wanted to set up some ME days on bench you could do Floor press the first week, Incline press the next week, 2 board press the week after and then close grip the week after and then repeat the 4 week cycle after that and try to break the numbers you hit in the previous weeks. So maxing out on a particular lift like the floor press is to help get a stronger bench press. When you work to a heavy single in the regular bench press that is your "test day." I hope this helps.

ChadDresden
07-10-2012, 09:26 PM
Also on a side note...when you are testing strength like let's say at a meet. You will make huge jumps generally to preserve energy for the max attempt. When you build strength it is better to take smaller jumps sometimes to get more work in. Forgot to add that in my previous post!

vdizenzo
07-11-2012, 06:22 AM
Max effort is only one part of conjugate training. If you are not using dynamic effort and repetition effort in addition to supplemental and assistance exercises, you will not get stronger. With the conjugate system you are basically training for speed, size, and strength at the same time. The program does not work if you are not following it in its entirety.

If you are worried about volume just take a look at DE work. If I use 300 lbs for 8x3, that's 7200 lbs of volume. You have to look at the bigger picture.

ScottYard
07-11-2012, 09:53 AM
We all have movements that test strength and others that build strength. Figuring what does what is the hard part. I wouldnt over comlicate it though. Lift heavy weights, strain, and you will get stronger.

Travis Bell
07-11-2012, 10:06 AM
Max effort is only one part of conjugate training. If you are not using dynamic effort and repetition effort in addition to supplemental and assistance exercises, you will not get stronger. With the conjugate system you are basically training for speed, size, and strength at the same time. The program does not work if you are not following it in its entirety.

If you are worried about volume just take a look at DE work. If I use 300 lbs for 8x3, that's 7200 lbs of volume. You have to look at the bigger picture.

^ This is the part most people miss.

Dave Alan
07-11-2012, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. I certainly appreciate all the input.

Vincent, I should have probably clarified that what you said is understood. I was asking about the ME stuff specifically but am aware trhat there is much more to it than just that. I understand what you're saying though and I do appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge with me. Thank you.

RhodeHouse
07-12-2012, 05:43 AM
For me, I have certain movements that I believe make me stronger (build strength) and certain ones that I feel directly affect my lifts (also build strength). When I compete or work some singles that is when I test my strength.

I don't follow the Conjugate system, but like Vincent said, you have to do it all and look at the big picture.

For instance, I feel that inclines, Close-grips, Chain Bench and competition Bench build my strength along with the assistance work.

I think Rack Pulls make me stronger, but have absolutely no carryover to my Pull. But, they make me strain, build my back and core and teach me to move heavy weights. When I Pull, I can use that strength I built to move some heavy Pulls.

Make sense?

Don't think too much. Just lift heavy, do your assistance work and keep track of everything. In time this question will answer itself.

BloodandThunder
07-12-2012, 10:12 AM
... my question is: why or how does performing a max single on a given lift build strength as opposed to testing strength on the lift being performed?

Say I floor press 365 pounds - okay, now I know I can floor press 365 but how is that a building block to me getting stronger and not just a marker of where my strength is on that particular lift?


Good advice in this thread. As a handler though, ME work can be very useful for meet day performance and attempt selection.

By hitting 3-4 lifts above 90% in a lift, you're developing maximal strength through that leverage point. Like Rhodes states, ME work trains a lifter how to strain and display maximal strength. This is why lifters like Chuck V are legendary for some of their seemingly "crazy" jumps in attempt selection. I'm the same way. My opener can look really hard yet I can go and dump 5-10% on because I can strain due to my training history.

Many lifters who incorporate Sheiko training do a bulk of their SPP (lift specific) work in the 70-85% area. This builds strength but come meet day, their ability to strain through a maximal lift is impaired due to a lack of training above 90%. When you look at IPF Worlds for example, many of those lifters utilize similar Volume Loading schemes but on the platform, they either make the lift look very easy or fail spectacularly. Brian Siders displayed this as well. It's been said that he looks so fast when lifting his attempts, but he simply had good attempt selection for his display of strength. 5 or 10 lbs could be the difference between lifting the weight with the speed of a Ferrari or the speed of a Tortoise.

In competition though, it may be necessary to attempt a weight higher than what you planned for to go for the win. ME training IMO is the best way to prepare for this. As a handler, if I know my lifter has a lack of ME training, I know I better put them in a position to force the other lifter to go for the win based on attempt selection. Also, say your attempt looks slow off the chest with a certain weight. If a handler knows your recent attempts with ME effort on certain lifts, they can have confidence in selecting a proper jump.

Dave Alan
07-12-2012, 01:31 PM
Make sense?

Don't think too much. Just lift heavy, do your assistance work and keep track of everything. In time this question will answer itself.

Thanks Matt, it does make sense.

Thinking too much hasn't been a problem for me in the past, I think I can continue not doing it, lol.

Thanks to everyone else who replied as well. Appreciate everyone's time and advice.

marcorock
07-12-2012, 05:26 PM
BloodandThunder, I've been using Sheiko/est european methods, and know a bunch of guys - some of them really strong - that use them, and I agree with what you say: you don't learn to strain, so it is either a blazing lift, or a trainwreck.

Good advice in here, folks.

Dave Alan
07-13-2012, 10:13 AM
Another plus to the conjugate method (to get kinda off track) is that it's more fun due to the variety that can be incorporated. The Sheiko stuff seems to work very well for some but I've tried it and the long training sessions and endless benching and squatting with almost no variety becomes tiresome fairly quickly. That is just my VERY limited experience with it and not to be taken as any kind of authority. Also, I'm not sure how correct the Sheiko templates are that you can find on the 'net - it seems a template like that would require more than just a cookie cutter template for each individual.

BloodandThunder
07-13-2012, 01:38 PM
BloodandThunder, I've been using Sheiko/est european methods, and know a bunch of guys - some of them really strong - that use them, and I agree with what you say: you don't learn to strain, so it is either a blazing lift, or a trainwreck.

An interesting training study would be to take a group of similar trainees with corresponding 3RM who either did Sheiko or WS/Conjugate and compare 1RM performance for raw, single, or multiply. It'd be very cool to see how much of an effect ME training at a higher frequency does. Conjugate, you're training 2 exercises a week, three lifts typically above 90%, say 6 lifts at the minimum. Whereas on a typical CMS/MS routine, you're doing 15-20 lifts above 90% in one week and 2 lifts above 90% in another over a 9 week prep/comp cycle. Comparing, that's 22 lifts over 9 weeks for Sheiko (at the most) vs. 40+ at the minimum for conjugate (7 weeks + 2 week deload). That's a big difference. Like I mentioned though if you look at how Siders trained and his performance (I saw a 1003 attempt by him that looked like a speed squat with the bar), it looked like he was doing speed work at meets.

Mike Tuscherer/RTS has stated I believe that instead of ME effort, you should push your reps with submax weights in the 70-85% range to get the "straining effect." I also think that's doable, but something can be said for the confidence you gain from ME effort and approaching a max attempt at a meet.

Both methods done correctly will get you stronger, more than one way to skin a cat that's for sure.