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ncsuLuke
07-30-2012, 05:43 PM
I quit posting on the crossfit board a while ago because I got sick of all the cool aid drinkers on there who take personal offense to saying things like grains aren't all that is evil but this whole Anthos deal has been interesting to say the least. From the looks of it Laura Glassman seems to be out for blood and while I wouldn't care if it only hurt Greg's wallet, I would hate for this to impact my friends businesses.

Chubrock
07-30-2012, 06:00 PM
Haven't really paid attention to it. Can you give me a run down?

ncsuLuke
07-30-2012, 06:06 PM
Greg Glassmans ex wife is looking to sell her 50% stake to Anthos, a venture capital company. There is a lot of BS to sift through and it is pretty impossible to know who is being sincere but it looks like Greg and others offered her more than the $20 million Anthos is offering but she is turning them down because she wants to be vengeful (who knows what happened with their divorce).

The reason people are upset is there is worry that Anthos will want to change the affiliate agreement to make it more like a franchise and push certain supplements and other products at the different boxes. Essentially they want to squeeze more profit out of the crossfit name like a VC firm would typically do. Now granted this POV is from current crossfit staff so who knows the real deal.

Chubrock
07-30-2012, 06:17 PM
Hmmmm. I've got a lot of mixed feelings about anything associated with CFHQ, so anything I say would probably be tainted by my opinion of them.

ncsuLuke
07-30-2012, 06:39 PM
Yeah I am not a huge CFHQ fan so I wouldn't mind seeing them get knocked down a peg, I just don't want it to impact my friends that are affiliates.

Bako Lifter
07-30-2012, 06:45 PM
I'm having mixed feelings towards crossfit as a whole as well, I don't even like reading their forums anymore. Now that the games are over I'm less excited about all of it. This could push me out all together depending how it plays out. I saw a video of Austin malleolo teaching farris (our USA representative for weightlifting) a kipping pull up and trying to teach him about power. Idk why but it just kind of pissed me off.. Crossfit trying to teach power to an olympian...

Chubrock
07-30-2012, 06:51 PM
The biggest thing that pisses me off about HQ is that they constantly bitch and moan about quality and quality control, but then continue to churn out Level 1 Certifications to any dumbass with the money.

I'm not so sure it would be a bad thing for affiliates to lose their title. The good affiliates, that weren't willing to sell out, would rise to the top as strength and conditioning facilities. The rest, the majority, would fall to the wayside when they no longer have the name to hide behind.

chris mason
07-30-2012, 07:52 PM
Chubrock,

They put people through a quality class. They do their part. If the individual does not take notes and strive to learn then shame on them. That is not a reflection of the class HQ is offering.

chris mason
07-30-2012, 07:53 PM
My position is I 100% back Mr. Glassman and his crew. I have met many of them and found them to be a great bunch. I like the affiliate program as it currently exists and agree with it. I am NOT for some equity firm getting 50% ownership of CF and therefore major decision making power.

Chubrock
07-30-2012, 07:59 PM
Chubrock,

They put people through a quality class. They do their part. If the individual does not take notes and strive to learn then shame on them. That is not a reflection of the class HQ is offering.


I've never said the class was bad. In fact, it likely is a very good class. What irritates me is the assertion made by HQ that the class, alone, makes someone a suitable coach and that a lack of CF Certification somehow represents a potential danger. Certified does not equal qualified, though many seem to feel this way.

chris mason
07-30-2012, 09:49 PM
I've never said the class was bad. In fact, it likely is a very good class. What irritates me is the assertion made by HQ that the class, alone, makes someone a suitable coach and that a lack of CF Certification somehow represents a potential danger. Certified does not equal qualified, though many seem to feel this way.

The run a business... They want a certain degree of homogenous presentation of their concepts at the gyms that carry their name hence they require a certification. It is a pretty sensible model.

Chubrock
07-31-2012, 06:36 PM
The run a business... They want a certain degree of homogenous presentation of their concepts at the gyms that carry their name hence they require a certification. It is a pretty sensible model.

A business, and its model, should be able to stand on its own merit. If your position is strong enough, you can promote your strengths without resorting to gross hyperbole. Sadly there are those out there that are ignorant (of the subject) enough to believe some of the lines that HQ puts out from time to time.

If the buyout occurs, IMHO, you'll see the better affiliates drop their names and stand as strength and conditioning facilities. The rest will attempt to ride out the money as long as possible before failing due to lack of quality instruction.

JustinM
07-31-2012, 08:52 PM
Hey Andrew.

I don't think anyone on that board has a clue about the law or how business voting works. The 1 other attorney thinks it is a pretty funny situation.

Anthos will not be able to elect enough (maybe any) board members to make ANY change in the way that CF is run without Greg's consent. Grdg won't consent. So Anthos can suck it up and take an equal portion of profits, or it can force a dissolution. A dissolution would give it a bunch of branding worth nothing, since nobody would support Anthos CrossFit. So, bottom line is that thid is all legally meaningless.

And from Lauren Glassman's perspective, I believe she was cheated on countless times, and she just wants out. Greg apparently offered more money but over a long period, rather than cash. So a sale to someone seems pretty imminent, but still completely meaningless. Even if you prefer Greg's vision, Lauren owns half, and she should have every right to sell.

r2473
08-01-2012, 11:42 AM
.....

Ben Norris
08-01-2012, 10:43 PM
A little bird knows.. his wife isn't out for blood. Greg explicitly wants her away from the business. She has been pushed out since their whole divorce and issues started happening. He tried to offer her an out based on future earnings of CFHQ earlier this year. The problem is, there's some legal issues because she's entitled to her half now and HQ isn't financially stable (never has been- for a lot of reasons, mostly personnel aren't capable). And it isn't more than the Anthos offer. The reality is that Anthos comes to the table with a legitimate offer and a clean break for her. Just like Greg wants. Whereas, CFHQ can't. Having been a part of that place, they nearly break even on cash because of the lack of control of their operational spending (they even couldn't make payroll a few times. And they still drew out those huge salaries in the meantime- irresponsible). Take a wild guess about how much salary some of those folks make. I'll give you a hint. High six figures, low seven. straight cash. Plus the way these folks conduct themselves professionally is appalling. The fact that they are lying and making a public scene out of this benefits no one and it's childish. Their brand suffers, and all of the CF'ers out there suffer. They are selfish and deserve what they get. I know that Anthos wouldn't come in and disrupt a good thing. First rule: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There are obvious ways that they can insert a little operational control, and perhaps even help encourage better service to the affiliates. I know that their aim isn't to do what Greg is claiming. Those claims are lies that Greg is spreading because his ego is getting crushed over this. Simply because someone outsmarted him. To quote some of them when they try to backpedal from doing something stupid "It's just business".

Perhaps you would like to reveal your real name, what your postion was at Crossfit HQ, how long you worked there and what was your salary? Without these you are simply some internet troll throwing around wild and unproven statements. I suppose I wont get an answer because trolls tend to run away when confronted.

Crossfit is not perfect and people have bagged it in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Having said this I challenge anybody to name another company that has done more for people fitness, health and nutrition than Crossfit. There is factors of elitism in the Crossfit community, but most of us are not. We respect Rowers, gymnasts, runners, olympic lifters, powerlifters and anybody who is out there achieving his or her best at their chosen sport. Hell If i did not have immense respect for powerlifters then why would i have bought the Westside Book of methods, the Westside squat and deadlift manual and the Westside bench press manual, became a member of this forum and read the Westside forum daily and plan on doing Westside for 2 years to drastically improve my strength and become better at Crossfit?

We can achieve so much more as a group than alone. I mean Crossfitters love Powerlifting and we turn up to meets to learn and to compete. We turn up to Olympic lifting meets to do the same thing. We then spread the word about Crossfit, Powerlifting and Olympic lifting to more and more people who have never tried these things. How can getting more people interested in Getting stronger faster and fitter not be beneficial to all of our communities?

Greg started Crossfit and has backed every affiliate owner 100%. He stands for improving peoples lives and snubs his nose at making huge profits because this would not be in the best interest of our community. I stand behind Mr Glassman 100%. He has always had our backs and we will always have his.

Russ Greene
08-01-2012, 11:53 PM
Perhaps you would like to reveal your real name, what your postion was at Crossfit HQ, how long you worked there and what was your salary? Without these you are simply some internet troll throwing around wild and unproven statements. I suppose I wont get an answer because trolls tend to run away when confronted.

Crossfit is not perfect and people have bagged it in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Having said this I challenge anybody to name another company that has done more for people fitness, health and nutrition than Crossfit. There is factors of elitism in the Crossfit community, but most of us are not. We respect Rowers, gymnasts, runners, olympic lifters, powerlifters and anybody who is out there achieving his or her best at their chosen sport. Hell If i did not have immense respect for powerlifters then why would i have bought the Westside Book of methods, the Westside squat and deadlift manual and the Westside bench press manual, became a member of this forum and read the Westside forum daily and plan on doing Westside for 2 years to drastically improve my strength and become better at Crossfit?

We can achieve so much more as a group than alone. I mean Crossfitters love Powerlifting and we turn up to meets to learn and to compete. We turn up to Olympic lifting meets to do the same thing. We then spread the word about Crossfit, Powerlifting and Olympic lifting to more and more people who have never tried these things. How can getting more people interested in Getting stronger faster and fitter not be beneficial to all of our communities?

Greg started Crossfit and has backed every affiliate owner 100%. He stands for improving peoples lives and snubs his nose at making huge profits because this would not be in the best interest of our community. I stand behind Mr Glassman 100%. He has always had our backs and we will always have his.

To answer your question, Ben, ExCFHQ's name is Ron Wilhelm. He did work at CrossFit HQ, a while ago. I'm not sure how he would claim to have insider knowledge about anything that's going on now. Unless, that is, he is getting his stories from the woman who's selling to Anthos...

Ron Wilhelm
08-02-2012, 02:41 AM
To answer your question, Ben, ExCFHQ's name is Ron Wilhelm. He did work at CrossFit HQ, a while ago. I'm not sure how he would claim to have insider knowledge about anything that's going on now. Unless, that is, he is getting his stories from the woman who's selling to Anthos...

Sorry Ross Greeenburg, ExCFHQ isn't me. Does being wrong make you a liar, or just wrong? If you compare the "tone and demeanor", as Greg Glassman once asked me to do, of what ExCFHQ wrote with what I have written, you'll find substantial differences. I have a strong suspicion of who ExCFHQ is, but no hints for you Sheerluck Greene.

Big_Byrd52
08-02-2012, 03:49 PM
haha u all are like a bunch of catty high school cheerleaders!

chris mason
08-10-2012, 10:46 PM
Well, we won't be hearing from ExCFHQ again, so no worries on that.

As for the tale he or she told, not accurate.

chris mason
08-10-2012, 10:51 PM
Perhaps you would like to reveal your real name, what your postion was at Crossfit HQ, how long you worked there and what was your salary? Without these you are simply some internet troll throwing around wild and unproven statements. I suppose I wont get an answer because trolls tend to run away when confronted.

Crossfit is not perfect and people have bagged it in the past and will continue to do so in the future. Having said this I challenge anybody to name another company that has done more for people fitness, health and nutrition than Crossfit. There is factors of elitism in the Crossfit community, but most of us are not. We respect Rowers, gymnasts, runners, olympic lifters, powerlifters and anybody who is out there achieving his or her best at their chosen sport. Hell If i did not have immense respect for powerlifters then why would i have bought the Westside Book of methods, the Westside squat and deadlift manual and the Westside bench press manual, became a member of this forum and read the Westside forum daily and plan on doing Westside for 2 years to drastically improve my strength and become better at Crossfit?

We can achieve so much more as a group than alone. I mean Crossfitters love Powerlifting and we turn up to meets to learn and to compete. We turn up to Olympic lifting meets to do the same thing. We then spread the word about Crossfit, Powerlifting and Olympic lifting to more and more people who have never tried these things. How can getting more people interested in Getting stronger faster and fitter not be beneficial to all of our communities?

Greg started Crossfit and has backed every affiliate owner 100%. He stands for improving peoples lives and snubs his nose at making huge profits because this would not be in the best interest of our community. I stand behind Mr Glassman 100%. He has always had our backs and we will always have his.

You are right about Mr. Glassman and what he has done.

The bottom line to the whole thing is as follows:

Private equity firms seek a 5X return on investment. The want to realize it in a relatively short period of time. Therefore, by definition, if Anthos buys into CF things will HAVE to change. If you are a CrossFitter or affiliate owner and are happy with how things are then you MUST not want this buyout to occur. Forget all of the rest.

One aside, I don't the circumstances of their marriage, but the very fact Mrs. Glassman refuses to sell to Mr. Glassman ANY percentage of her ownership smacks of spite to me. That is unfortunate.

Workhorse
08-11-2012, 07:39 AM
One aside, I don't the circumstances of their marriage, but the very fact Mrs. Glassman refuses to sell to Mr. Glassman ANY percentage of her ownership smacks of spite to me. That is unfortunate.

Chris, I don't think we know if that's true. We only know that Glassman offered her 17million over 5 years and Anthos offered her 20million in one payment upfront. I have not seen anywhere that Greg asked for a % of her shares, nor did Lauren say she wouldn't sell a % of her shares to him. However, she's signed an agreement with Anthos already and she's committed to them for ALL of her shares - the courts will decide if Anthos gets the shares for the 20million they offered. Right now there's nothing, unfortunately, that anyone can do to stop it other than doing what CFHQ asked and use social media to speak up about it and try to devalue CF should Anthos take over.

I know you're at the Affiliate gathering right now in Montana by Greg's invitation, maybe you'll have more insight for us from being there?

Workhorse
08-13-2012, 09:27 AM
Very cool video posted up by CFHQ from the Big Sky gathering.

http://youtu.be/M-gFFOf6CfQ

Sensei
08-13-2012, 01:48 PM
The biggest thing that pisses me off about HQ is that they constantly bitch and moan about quality and quality control, but then continue to churn out Level 1 Certifications to any dumbass with the money.
Agreed.

Chris,
No offense, but you aren't exactly impartial on any of this.

Paulo_Santos
08-13-2012, 02:52 PM
The biggest thing that pisses me off about HQ is that they constantly bitch and moan about quality and quality control, but then continue to churn out Level 1 Certifications to any dumbass with the money.

If someone goes to a certification class and passes the written test, how are they a dumbass? Most people that open up a CrossFit box already have been doing CrossFit for a while before they get their certs and open up a box, so I don't understand what you are talking about. I think you are just regurgitating crap you read on the internut.

DoUgL@S
08-13-2012, 03:11 PM
If someone goes to a certification class and passes the written test, how are they a dumbass? Most people that open up a CrossFit box already have been doing CrossFit for a while before they get their certs and open up a box, so I don't understand what you are talking about. I think you are just regurgitating crap you read on the internut.

Just because someone passes a test, does not mean they are in a position to train others. Don't drink the kool-aid. Doing crossfit for a while, does not equate to being a good trainer and having the ability to program effective workouts for high level athletes and everyday Joes. I fyou look through the posts at the crossfit boards, there seems to be plenty of affiliates complaining about this same issue. Just like there are quality coaches that choose to learn the crossfit methodology, there are a lot of people using the crossfit name just to make a buck. As an aside, doing crossfit does not prepare you to coach, neither does a weekend cert. It is your dedication to learning about training and being able to apply it in the real world effectively and safely that does. JMHO.

Sensei
08-13-2012, 03:29 PM
If someone goes to a certification class and passes the written test, how are they a dumbass? Most people that open up a CrossFit box already have been doing CrossFit for a while before they get their certs and open up a box, so I don't understand what you are talking about. I think you are just regurgitating crap you read on the internut.Well, what qualifies as a competent trainer is a subjective thing, I guess... It's not uncommon to see box owners/trainers that have very little experience training themselves or others... For those, it's tough to say that attending a cert and passing a written test is adequate.

Paulo_Santos
08-13-2012, 04:35 PM
Just because someone passes a test, does not mean they are in a position to train others. Don't drink the kool-aid. Doing crossfit for a while, does not equate to being a good trainer and having the ability to program effective workouts for high level athletes and everyday Joes. I fyou look through the posts at the crossfit boards, there seems to be plenty of affiliates complaining about this same issue. Just like there are quality coaches that choose to learn the crossfit methodology, there are a lot of people using the crossfit name just to make a buck. As an aside, doing crossfit does not prepare you to coach, neither does a weekend cert. It is your dedication to learning about training and being able to apply it in the real world effectively and safely that does. JMHO.

Sorry, I don't drink kool-aid. I've been crossfitting since January of 2010 and I have been doing my own programming since November of 2011. I can tell you that doing my own programming is not as easy as it looks and I'm finally getting the hang of it after a few months of trial and error. I'm going to the level 1 cert this weekend and I'm pretty confident I could train some people. There are already 2 of my co-workers following my programming with great results.

As far as other CrossFit trainers, most of them are very good. The ones that suck won't last too long.

Paulo_Santos
08-13-2012, 04:37 PM
Well, what qualifies as a competent trainer is a subjective thing, I guess... It's not uncommon to see box owners/trainers that have very little experience training themselves or others... For those, it's tough to say that attending a cert and passing a written test is adequate.

Early on, I know that there were people opening boxes with very little experience just because at the time there weren't too many CrossFit boxes around to train at. It isn't like that anymore.

Chubrock
08-13-2012, 05:13 PM
Early on, I know that there were people opening boxes with very little experience just because at the time there weren't too many CrossFit boxes around to train at. It isn't like that anymore.

I disagree. HQ is churning out Level 1 certs just as fast as they can process their paypal account. My area has several CF boxes, and while I agree there are good ones out there, many more still continue to pop up that are run by individuals that simply don't know how to train. They make their money on name recognition and not on merit.

The only concern of HQ is whether or not the individual can pass a multiple choice test prior to receiving their certification. As I said before, certified doesn't equal qualified. There are several ways they can improve their so called quality control, but until they do so, many will continue to take their affiliation process less seriously.

Paulo_Santos
08-13-2012, 05:21 PM
There are several ways they can improve their so called quality control, but until they do so, many will continue to take their affiliation process less seriously.

I'm listening.

ncsuLuke
08-13-2012, 05:42 PM
Early on, I know that there were people opening boxes with very little experience just because at the time there weren't too many CrossFit boxes around to train at. It isn't like that anymore.

And this is based on?

Paulo_Santos
08-13-2012, 05:47 PM
And this is based on?

Just from talking with trainers/friends that I know. The first crossfit programming that I followed, the guy was a marathon runner who went to the Level 1 Cert and opened up a box with very little to no experience (at that time, they didn't even have a test at the end of the cert). I notice a huge difference in his programming from when he first started to now.

chris mason
08-13-2012, 10:42 PM
Chris, I don't think we know if that's true. We only know that Glassman offered her 17million over 5 years and Anthos offered her 20million in one payment upfront. I have not seen anywhere that Greg asked for a % of her shares, nor did Lauren say she wouldn't sell a % of her shares to him. However, she's signed an agreement with Anthos already and she's committed to them for ALL of her shares - the courts will decide if Anthos gets the shares for the 20million they offered. Right now there's nothing, unfortunately, that anyone can do to stop it other than doing what CFHQ asked and use social media to speak up about it and try to devalue CF should Anthos take over.

I know you're at the Affiliate gathering right now in Montana by Greg's invitation, maybe you'll have more insight for us from being there?

I think it is pretty clear she is not merely accepting a better offer (or trying to).

chris mason
08-13-2012, 10:46 PM
Agreed.

Chris,
No offense, but you aren't exactly impartial on any of this.

No, but I know a LOT more than you do due to direct experience. I KNOW many of the people that put on the Level 1 certs. I will personally be going to one soon.

chris mason
08-13-2012, 10:53 PM
Just because someone passes a test, does not mean they are in a position to train others. Don't drink the kool-aid. Doing crossfit for a while, does not equate to being a good trainer and having the ability to program effective workouts for high level athletes and everyday Joes. I fyou look through the posts at the crossfit boards, there seems to be plenty of affiliates complaining about this same issue. Just like there are quality coaches that choose to learn the crossfit methodology, there are a lot of people using the crossfit name just to make a buck. As an aside, doing crossfit does not prepare you to coach, neither does a weekend cert. It is your dedication to learning about training and being able to apply it in the real world effectively and safely that does. JMHO.

Your point makes no sense.

First, I have met many, many CrossFit affiliate owners and trainers. I have also met many, many trainers in other gyms. The average CrossFit owner/trainer knows more about proper training than the average trainer in most gyms.

Next, CrossFit requires a quality course in order to open an affiliate. They then offer many other courses for continuing education. They do a good job. Tell me a fitness company that does a better job?

chris mason
08-13-2012, 10:59 PM
I disagree. HQ is churning out Level 1 certs just as fast as they can process their paypal account. My area has several CF boxes, and while I agree there are good ones out there, many more still continue to pop up that are run by individuals that simply don't know how to train. They make their money on name recognition and not on merit.

The only concern of HQ is whether or not the individual can pass a multiple choice test prior to receiving their certification. As I said before, certified doesn't equal qualified. There are several ways they can improve their so called quality control, but until they do so, many will continue to take their affiliation process less seriously.

Why talk out of your ass? Do you personally know anyone at CrossFit HQ in order to make such a statement? Have you spoken with coach Glassman? Did he tell you that himself?

You are wrong. As wrong as you can be. HQ absolutely cares about turning out a quality product.

Fuck, I really hate it when someone who is ignorant makes definitive statements. It smacks of stupidity.

DoUgL@S
08-13-2012, 11:40 PM
Your point makes no sense.

First, I have met many, many CrossFit affiliate owners and trainers. I have also met many, many trainers in other gyms. The average CrossFit owner/trainer knows more about proper training than the average trainer in most gyms.

Next, CrossFit requires a quality course in order to open an affiliate. They then offer many other courses for continuing education. They do a good job. Tell me a fitness company that does a better job?

What exactly makes no sense. Maybe I rambled. A level 1 cert does not equate a good trainer, but there are good trainers with a level 1 cert. It is not the one weekend cert that guarantees that makes great trainers.

To counter your point I have met many people a globo gyms that know more than some L1 certified crossfit coaches. You are fortunate to have been around quality crossfit coaches. I am sure most of them have much more knowledge and are using the cert as continuing education. There are still people with just the l1 cert as their only real education which are now "qualified" to coach. These are not mutually exclusive.

I do not know of any other fitness company/chain that does a better job. I think crossfit is great, don't get me wrong. Most of the affiliates around me know their stuff.

You have to admit though, that if I go take and pass the test, I probably will not be the best coach. I just don't have the background. Yet I could affiliate and run a "box". This needs to be addressed to make the community better.

chris mason
08-14-2012, 12:00 AM
What exactly makes no sense. Maybe I rambled. A level 1 cert does not equate a good trainer, but there are good trainers with a level 1 cert. It is not the one weekend cert that guarantees that makes great trainers.

To counter your point I have met many people a globo gyms that know more than some L1 certified crossfit coaches. You are fortunate to have been around quality crossfit coaches. I am sure most of them have much more knowledge and are using the cert as continuing education. There are still people with just the l1 cert as their only real education which are now "qualified" to coach. These are not mutually exclusive.

There are better and worse people in EVERY endeavor. Your post did not make sense as it was pointing out, in a way that seemed to be an attack, or a negative light, that some CF trainers aren't the best. Well, no shit??? That is called humanity. What I can tell you is that on average from my VAST experience (especially compared to yours), on average, the CrossFit trainer knows more about PROPER training than most trainers.

DoUgL@S
08-14-2012, 12:12 AM
There are better and worse people in EVERY endeavor. Your post did not make sense as it was pointing out, in a way that seemed to be an attack, or a negative light, that some CF trainers aren't the best. Well, no shit??? That is called humanity. What I can tell you is that on average from my VAST experience (especially compared to yours), on average, the CrossFit trainer knows more about PROPER training than most trainers.

My bad, not meant as an attack. I actually like CF. :)

Chubrock
08-14-2012, 07:30 AM
Fuck, I really hate it when someone who is ignorant makes definitive statements. It smacks of stupidity.

Fuck, I really hate when someone is so blinded by their next business opportunity that they're unwilling to accept criticism of the community they're going to be joining...

Everything I've stated has been my opinion, and has read as such. I even stated early on that my dislike for the way HQ runs things would likely taint any opinion I might have on the subject. Not sure how I could preface my comments with anything more overt. Maybe a spoiler alert?

I've personally seen HQ staff members tout their superior quality control. Anything less than a Level 1 cert is "dangerous". When you have affiliate owner's sleeping with members whose husbands are deployed, that's not quality control. When you have affiliate owners laying shirts on homeless guys for a photo op, that's not quality control. When you have boxes that still can't teach people how to properly squat, even after they've been open for several years, that's not quality control.

Glassman created a very successful business model. I have no issue with that. I have no issue with the main driving force being the almighty dollar. Just be up front with it.


And let me make this big before somebody accuses me of trying to pass my opinion as fact. THIS IS MY OPINION.

chris mason
08-14-2012, 10:30 AM
Fuck, I really hate when someone is so blinded by their next business opportunity that they're unwilling to accept criticism of the community they're going to be joining...

Everything I've stated has been my opinion, and has read as such. I even stated early on that my dislike for the way HQ runs things would likely taint any opinion I might have on the subject. Not sure how I could preface my comments with anything more overt. Maybe a spoiler alert?

I've personally seen HQ staff members tout their superior quality control. Anything less than a Level 1 cert is "dangerous". When you have affiliate owner's sleeping with members whose husbands are deployed, that's not quality control. When you have affiliate owners laying shirts on homeless guys for a photo op, that's not quality control. When you have boxes that still can't teach people how to properly squat, even after they've been open for several years, that's not quality control.

Glassman created a very successful business model. I have no issue with that. I have no issue with the main driving force being the almighty dollar. Just be up front with it.


And let me make this big before somebody accuses me of trying to pass my opinion as fact. THIS IS MY OPINION.

You are being totally ridiculous on this topic. First, how the fuck is HQ going to control an affiliate owner sleeping with someone? Lol, that is the dumbest thing I have EVER hear of. As for the homeless thing, lol again. That was one affiliate and the problem was dealt with. Doesn't the internet love to blow everything out of proportion? One fucking affiliate out of almost 4,500 doing something questionable seems like pretty good quality control to me...

As for your accusation about me and my business, that has earned you a timeout. You have no idea what motivates me to do anything. You are not going to come into my house and say something like that. The balance of what you said is fine (albeit uninformed and stupid), but calling my integrity into question is not acceptable.

You also have no idea what Mr. Glassman's motivations are. You are making assumptions based upon your own biases and experiences.

Alex.V
08-14-2012, 10:35 AM
Not to get involved in an argument, because I hate those, but...

Nearly every certification, regardless of how prestigious, will have people obtaining it with zero skill involved. My USAT coaching certification requires a two day clinic and a written exam, and quite frankly... what else could they possibly require and still make it feasible for people to get? Good coaches are going to be good coaches, and for them the certification is a tool. Crap coaches will be crap coaches, but they can still study for a test. Quite frankly, unless the business owner/founder is willing to PERSONALLY interview and vet every single new coach, there are bound to be folks who slip through the cracks.

But you can't invalidate the certification because the requirements to obtain it may seem slim- after all, horrible doctors can graduate from medical school, terrible lawyers have their JDs, and complete morons can obtain their MBAs.

Neither here nor there in this argument, but just wanted to toss in my $0.02

chris mason
08-14-2012, 12:33 PM
Not to get involved in an argument, because I hate those, but...

Nearly every certification, regardless of how prestigious, will have people obtaining it with zero skill involved. My USAT coaching certification requires a two day clinic and a written exam, and quite frankly... what else could they possibly require and still make it feasible for people to get? Good coaches are going to be good coaches, and for them the certification is a tool. Crap coaches will be crap coaches, but they can still study for a test. Quite frankly, unless the business owner/founder is willing to PERSONALLY interview and vet every single new coach, there are bound to be folks who slip through the cracks.

But you can't invalidate the certification because the requirements to obtain it may seem slim- after all, horrible doctors can graduate from medical school, terrible lawyers have their JDs, and complete morons can obtain their MBAs.

Neither here nor there in this argument, but just wanted to toss in my $0.02

I agree. In this particular case I think the company offers a good certification which can most definitely benefit the attendee. What people do with it and get from it is highly individualized. So, yes, like ANY such thing there will be good ones and not so good ones which come out of it. What people don't realize is that you can't regulate stupidity. No matter how good the training, how strenuous, how long etc. there will always be bad seeds that get through. Planning should not be for the exception, it should be for the general populous.

Something naysayers don't realize is that the trainers at those Level 1 certs will gladly give out their contact information and answer questions after the fact etc.

Sensei
08-14-2012, 04:19 PM
No, but I know a LOT more than you do due to direct experience. I KNOW many of the people that put on the Level 1 certs. I will personally be going to one soon.
Chris,

The only point was that you are biased and your experience is working against you here. That's not a put down, just an observation. I know people that work with CF. I've worked w. people from CF. I've trained trainers from CF. In my experience, they were/are all very willing to learn and competent. I'm biased too, but not as invested as CFers or yourself - maybe that makes me more objective. Maybe not.

Fwiw, I like a lot of things about CF - a lot of things. I've never met anyone from HQ, so I don't know them personally - I only have opinions formed by what they have said and done online. I don't think it's outrageous to say that they can come off as pretty defensive and unbending on some of the programming and quality issues. And there ARE programming and quality control issues - period. I don't know if it's better or worse than the general S&C/fitness trainer and gym populace, but among the general S&C/fitness trainer populace, they aren't doing AMRAP/'for time' OLs, plyos, gymnastic skills, or KB work either.

JMO.

Paulo_Santos
08-14-2012, 05:51 PM
Chris,

The only point was that you are biased and your experience is working against you here. That's not a put down, just an observation. I know people that work with CF. I've worked w. people from CF. I've trained trainers from CF. In my experience, they were/are all very willing to learn and competent. I'm biased too, but not as invested as CFers or yourself - maybe that makes me more objective. Maybe not.

Fwiw, I like a lot of things about CF - a lot of things. I've never met anyone from HQ, so I don't know them personally - I only have opinions formed by what they have said and done online. I don't think it's outrageous to say that they can come off as pretty defensive and unbending on some of the programming and quality issues. And there ARE programming and quality control issues - period. I don't know if it's better or worse than the general S&C/fitness trainer and gym populace, but among the general S&C/fitness trainer populace, they aren't doing AMRAP/'for time' OLs, plyos, gymnastic skills, or KB work either.

JMO.

I'm not going to stick up for Chris because he does a great job sticking up for himself, but Chris has been helping out crossfitters getting stronger for a very long time. I've learned a lot from Chris and so have many others. The one thing I've noticed about Chris is that he stands behind what he believes in. He is a big supporter of CrossFit just like he is a big supporter of Westside.

Sensei
08-14-2012, 07:24 PM
I'm not going to stick up for Chris because he does a great job sticking up for himself, but Chris has been helping out crossfitters getting stronger for a very long time. I've learned a lot from Chris and so have many others. The one thing I've noticed about Chris is that he stands behind what he believes in. He is a big supporter of CrossFit just like he is a big supporter of Westside.
I don't think anything I've said is contrary at all to what you've just posted.

chris mason
08-14-2012, 10:14 PM
Chris,

The only point was that you are biased and your experience is working against you here. That's not a put down, just an observation. I know people that work with CF. I've worked w. people from CF. I've trained trainers from CF. In my experience, they were/are all very willing to learn and competent. I'm biased too, but not as invested as CFers or yourself - maybe that makes me more objective. Maybe not.

Fwiw, I like a lot of things about CF - a lot of things. I've never met anyone from HQ, so I don't know them personally - I only have opinions formed by what they have said and done online. I don't think it's outrageous to say that they can come off as pretty defensive and unbending on some of the programming and quality issues. And there ARE programming and quality control issues - period. I don't know if it's better or worse than the general S&C/fitness trainer and gym populace, but among the general S&C/fitness trainer populace, they aren't doing AMRAP/'for time' OLs, plyos, gymnastic skills, or KB work either.

JMO.

Again, what business is perfect and has no sub-par trainers etc.??? NONE. So what is your point? The truth is that CrossFit has better quality control than most fitness related businesses. You, and others, are pointing out imperfection as though it only exists with CrossFit. Ok, CrossFit is not perfect. Gee, can you imagine?

Rory Senseman
08-15-2012, 09:00 AM
And there ARE programming and quality control issues - period. I don't know if it's better or worse than the general S&C/fitness trainer and gym populace, but among the general S&C/fitness trainer populace, they aren't doing AMRAP/'for time' OLs, plyos, gymnastic skills, or KB work either.

JMO.

They aren't?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMBw3o768s WFS
That video is at DeFranco training. A pretty well known name in the strength and conditioning industry and a person who continuously provides clients with results. Just a basic fat bar complex which is including hang power cleans. Would you say that is a similar metabolic conditioning type complex you might see in CrossFit? I think we could agree his technique and range of motion leaves a lot to be desired as well but I'm not ready to start screaming quality control.

DoUgL@S
08-15-2012, 10:26 AM
Again, what business is perfect and has no sub-par trainers etc.??? NONE. So what is your point? The truth is that CrossFit has better quality control than most fitness related businesses. You, and others, are pointing out imperfection as though it only exists with CrossFit. Ok, CrossFit is not perfect. Gee, can you imagine?

I can only speak for myself, so take this as MY opinion. Do not lump your feelings for what others have said influence your response to me.

I never stated I wanted CrossFit to be perfect. We all got sidetracked with that argument, but my original post was this. I like CrossFit the exercise program, I really like that they are making this training available to all kinds of people. Any criticism I may have is independent of anything else, any other industry, because I think that CrossFit has so much potential reach a lot of people. Unlike bodybuilding and powerlifting that tends to attract a certain mentality and personality, CrossFit is now reaching the average Joe. It is unfair to the average Joe to walk in to a CrossFit facility with the assumption that they are going to get world class coaching/training. After all they expect to be exposed to "Elite Fitness." We as a community should strive to make it better.

I know you are not telling me that a weekend certification alone will provide this, and I do not expect it to, but that is all some facilities will have. A person with a weekend cert that has been crossfitting for a while (the original post by Paul that I was responding to when you responded to my post).

I want someone like you or Alex that used the cert as a continuing education, that knows his or her stuff. That is what we should shoot for. It will never be perfect, but I think CrossFit should aim to be better than the rest of the industry. JMHO.

Rory Senseman
08-15-2012, 01:25 PM
...CrossFit should aim to be better than the rest of the industry. JMHO.

Who say's they aren't already trying to do that? They just recently received ANSI accreditation for the Level 1 Trainer course. The same ANSI accreditation held by the NSCA/CSCS. The Level 2 is currently unavailable as it's being restructured for accreditation, and includes both a written exam and practical evaluation. Multiple specialty courses are offered and coached by individuals with excellent credentials in their respective fields (Louie Simmons, Burgener, Rob Orlando who holds multiple North American records, Jeff Martone, Kelly Starrett etc). They offer a CrossFit journal which publishes new videos and articles every day. They have branch off sites such as mobilitywod with people like Kelly Starrett preaching proper movement patterns to prevent injury and dysfunction. More importantly, they are making the information easily available to anyone and everyone. In todays fitness world, who can say the same?

It's a growing entity, which was only started in what, 1995? Refining things takes time, but it would be difficult to argue that they aren't constantly striving to improve the product.

chris mason
08-15-2012, 09:10 PM
I can only speak for myself, so take this as MY opinion. Do not lump your feelings for what others have said influence your response to me.

I never stated I wanted CrossFit to be perfect. We all got sidetracked with that argument, but my original post was this. I like CrossFit the exercise program, I really like that they are making this training available to all kinds of people. Any criticism I may have is independent of anything else, any other industry, because I think that CrossFit has so much potential reach a lot of people. Unlike bodybuilding and powerlifting that tends to attract a certain mentality and personality, CrossFit is now reaching the average Joe. It is unfair to the average Joe to walk in to a CrossFit facility with the assumption that they are going to get world class coaching/training. After all they expect to be exposed to "Elite Fitness." We as a community should strive to make it better.

I know you are not telling me that a weekend certification alone will provide this, and I do not expect it to, but that is all some facilities will have. A person with a weekend cert that has been crossfitting for a while (the original post by Paul that I was responding to when you responded to my post).

I want someone like you or Alex that used the cert as a continuing education, that knows his or her stuff. That is what we should shoot for. It will never be perfect, but I think CrossFit should aim to be better than the rest of the industry. JMHO.

When was the last time you went to a CrossFit box and did a workout?

chris mason
08-15-2012, 09:11 PM
Who say's they aren't already trying to do that? They just recently received ANSI accreditation for the Level 1 Trainer course. The same ANSI accreditation held by the NSCA/CSCS. The Level 2 is currently unavailable as it's being restructured for accreditation, and includes both a written exam and practical evaluation. Multiple specialty courses are offered and coached by individuals with excellent credentials in their respective fields (Louie Simmons, Burgener, Rob Orlando who holds multiple North American records, Jeff Martone, Kelly Starrett etc). They offer a CrossFit journal which publishes new videos and articles every day. They have branch off sites such as mobilitywod with people like Kelly Starrett preaching proper movement patterns to prevent injury and dysfunction. More importantly, they are making the information easily available to anyone and everyone. In todays fitness world, who can say the same?

It's a growing entity, which was only started in what, 1995? Refining things takes time, but it would be difficult to argue that they aren't constantly striving to improve the product.


You are correct, they are. People just have opinions based on what they have read from others in many cases. The very fact CrossFit is so incredibly popular just bothers some people.

Sensei
08-16-2012, 08:21 AM
Again, what business is perfect and has no sub-par trainers etc.??? NONE. So what is your point? The truth is that CrossFit has better quality control than most fitness related businesses. You, and others, are pointing out imperfection as though it only exists with CrossFit. Ok, CrossFit is not perfect. Gee, can you imagine?
Other businesses aren't the topic of conversation here... I think you know the point - we just disagree whether it's a problem or not. Nowhere to go from there, I guess.

Sensei
08-16-2012, 08:28 AM
They aren't?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZMBw3o768s WFS
That video is at DeFranco training. A pretty well known name in the strength and conditioning industry and a person who continuously provides clients with results. Just a basic fat bar complex which is including hang power cleans. Would you say that is a similar metabolic conditioning type complex you might see in CrossFit? I think we could agree his technique and range of motion leaves a lot to be desired as well but I'm not ready to start screaming quality control.
I think we can both agree that the weight is probably somewhere around 30% of this guy's max power clean... The fat bar really makes the entire complex very grip-intensive and that changes things a lot. Beyond that, I don't know enough about his training to comment on Joe DeFranco's programming as a whole - looking at a single minute complex doesn't tell me anything about the big picture.

DoUgL@S
08-16-2012, 08:43 AM
When was the last time you went to a CrossFit box and did a workout?

I was a regular member up until early this year. My box followed main site programming. I went for about 6 months 2-4 times a week before I decided to build a garage gym to complement my 24 hour membership.

Rory Senseman
08-16-2012, 08:50 AM
I think we can both agree that the weight is probably somewhere around 30% of this guy's max power clean... The fat bar really makes the entire complex very grip-intensive and that changes things a lot. Beyond that, I don't know enough about his training to comment on Joe DeFranco's programming as a whole - looking at a single minute complex doesn't tell me anything about the big picture.

I agree 100%. But that in fact is my point.

Sensei
08-16-2012, 08:55 AM
I agree 100%. But that in fact is my point.
So, I can't comment on a box's programming when the post the WoD everyday and post videos frequently? I can't comment on a box's programming when I see first-hand injuries as a result of them?

I guess I'm not seeing what your point is.

Rory Senseman
08-16-2012, 11:47 AM
So, I can't comment on a box's programming when the post the WoD everyday and post videos frequently? I can't comment on a box's programming when I see first-hand injuries as a result of them?

I guess I'm not seeing what your point is.

My point is, you aren't commenting on "a box". I have yet to see a specific location mentioned, not implying that you would publicly throw someone under the bus like that. Though you have in fact, been grouping them together with all the other 4000 affiliates, and that I believe is what Mr. Mason and I are getting at. I personally know some CrossFit locations who have some terribly bad programming, but I also know some who have excellent programming and employ former National Champion weightlifters etc. Quality control can be a self imposed thing. People will gravitate towards the superior locations over time.

chris mason
08-16-2012, 03:31 PM
Other businesses aren't the topic of conversation here... I think you know the point - we just disagree whether it's a problem or not. Nowhere to go from there, I guess.

No business is perfect. Your "concern" about CrossFit is ridiculous because the exact same concern could be voiced about any similar business yet you seem to want to use it to attack CrossFit and its credibility. You have a reason you feel compelled to express your opinion and it is NOT some objective assessment as you wish people here to think. What is that reason? What is it really?

chris mason
08-16-2012, 03:35 PM
I was a regular member up until early this year. My box followed main site programming. I went for about 6 months 2-4 times a week before I decided to build a garage gym to complement my 24 hour membership.

Ok, so your experience at one box dictates what CrossFit as a 4,500 box entity is?

I'm curious, how many times have you been injured training? Please don't say never or I will say you obviously don't train, or train like an absolute pussy. So, when you were injured from your own programming, does that make you bad or incompetent? How many professional athletes do you know who have been injured? Are they all getting shit training?

r2473
08-16-2012, 04:14 PM
Ok, so your experience at one box dictates what CrossFit as a 4,500 box entity is?

How many of the 4,500 boxes have you been to?

DoUgL@S
08-16-2012, 04:24 PM
Ok, so your experience at one box dictates what CrossFit as a 4,500 box entity is?

I'm curious, how many times have you been injured training? Please don't say never or I will say you obviously don't train, or train like an absolute pussy. So, when you were injured from your own programming, does that make you bad or incompetent? How many professional athletes do you know who have been injured? Are they all getting shit training?

There we go. I trained at one box. I have looked at the programming at others. TRUE. I NEVER EVER said that all the boxes have terrible programming or terrible coaches, I never even said the box I went to had bad programming. I said they followed main site programming. You are putting words in my mouth. Please, lets not resort to that. Getting past your emotional response. What I said, more than once, is that I believe that CrossFit the movement should minimize the affiliation of "people who have been crossfitting for a while" and were able to get a weekend cert. Even you can agree that is a good thing. If you don't there is nothing more to say.

I don't deadlift 600 lbs, squat 500 or bench 400. I must not be lifting enough weight yet to get hurt while training. I am very conservative. I did tear a hammy a few years back sprinting. I have sprained ankles and broken wrists playing basketball and football. That probably does not qualify me then. If getting hurt training equates not training like a pussy, then I guess I'm shit out of luck. If I was injured from my own programming because of lack of proper form or from pushing more weight than I should, then yes it is bad programming/coaching.

What do professional athletes have to do with anything. Most of them get hurt playing their sport, not in the weight room. So what's your point. I hardly ever hear Ray Lewis got hurt doing power cleans or benching before the game, news at 11. I have heard of him getting hurt playing football though.

So let me get this straight. To really train, I must get injured in the weight room. Then I'm lifting like a man. Are you hearing yourself? That can be a topic for a different thread.

I am actually curious to hear what not training like a pussy entails. Please elucidate me.

Rory Senseman
08-16-2012, 05:36 PM
I believe that CrossFit the movement should minimize the affiliation of "people who have been crossfitting for a while" and were able to get a weekend cert. Even you can agree that is a good thing. If you don't there is nothing more to say.

I actually understand where you are coming from here. But no amount of training/certs will make up for the actual experience of training people. Only one way to get that experience...train people. What further would you suggest? A degree possibly or apprenticeship? Either way, is CrossFit the only mainstream fitness company that has a quick certification process?

Anytime Fitness - "1715 clubs in north america, 239 across the globe":
"During your initial training, you will learn about operational issues, sales techniques, and marketing strategies. Also during training, you will meet the Anytime Fitness preferred vendors. These vendors will discuss the many products available for outfitting your club and enhancing the member experience.
Our mandatory, one-week training course is required for the principal owner and/or operator of a new franchise. It can also be beneficial to invite key staff members to share in the knowledge!"

That one whole week prepares people. Of which I'm sure plenty of it is focused on those marketing and sales portions. Also I'm sure it is not an accredited program. Don't pretend quality control and assurance is a problem exclusive to CrossFit.



What do professional athletes have to do with anything. Most of them get hurt playing their sport, not in the weight room. So what's your point. I hardly ever hear Ray Lewis got hurt doing power cleans or benching before the game, news at 11. I have heard of him getting hurt playing football though.


Now that's a great point. While people are busy jumping on the bash CrossFit bandwagon, they mention nothing of kids being sent onto football fields. Muscles and joints can be repaired. The brain? Eh not so easy to fix. Also, what about the kid from USC who dropped the bar on his neck while bench pressing? Kid almost died, and probably didn't have his thumb wrapped around the bar. Down with USC!!??


I don't deadlift 600 lbs, squat 500 or bench 400. I must not be lifting enough weight yet to get hurt while training. I am very conservative. I did tear a hammy a few years back sprinting. I have sprained ankles and broken wrists playing basketball and football. That probably does not qualify me then. If getting hurt training equates not training like a pussy, then I guess I'm shit out of luck. If I was injured from my own programming because of lack of proper form or from pushing more weight than I should, then yes it is bad programming/coaching...I am actually curious to hear what not training like a pussy entails. Please elucidate me.

The point he's trying to make is that for exceptional results, intensity is important. Coaches such as Glenn Pendlay will repeatedly tell you, to be competent at cleaning or snatching max weights, you have to attempt max weights somewhat regularly. If you aren't pushing the intensity you are stunting progress. Is that what a client should be paying for? How many mma fighters get injured in training prior to the fights? It happens, they have to train with intensity to be prepared. That doesn't mean you should go do 1000 box jumps for time, but nonetheless, show me a program without intensity and I'll show you marginal results.

DoUgL@S
08-16-2012, 05:52 PM
I see your point Rory. Again I was referencing the idea that it appeared to me that Paul was advocating that it is perfectly fine for someone with minimal experience to open an affiliate and train people. I agree that people need to get experience, and from what I have seen, usually people will apprentice in an established box before going out and opening their own. I like the fact that there are lots of boxes with people who have not only a Level I Cert but a Level II Cert, Olympic Lifting Cert, Power Lifting Cert, etc. So people who apprentice in such boxes are more in line with what I thought CrossFit as a whole advocated.

Intensity is one of the reasons CrossFit is so different and effective. I appreciate that. I have no argument there.

MMA is a different animal. Their workouts are intense, no doubt. There is also full contact sparring involved. It's like the football analogy again. If a receiver gets hurt getting cracked by a safety, no one is going to say that his trainer must not program or coach well. I do not have statistics, but I would venture to say that the injuries are not due to not exercising correctly, but most likely the result of the sparring.

I am sure that Chris will chime in soon, but in my opinion Intensity =! Injury. Do injuries happen, yes undoubtedly. No getting around that. But to say that if you have never been injured than you are not training right is ludicrous. Chris is a smart guy, I know he did not mean that as I spelled it out, but that is what it read like.

Paulo_Santos
08-16-2012, 07:47 PM
I see your point Rory. Again I was referencing the idea that it appeared to me that Paul was advocating that it is perfectly fine for someone with minimal experience to open an affiliate and train people. I agree that people need to get experience, and from what I have seen, usually people will apprentice in an established box before going out and opening their own. I like the fact that there are lots of boxes with people who have not only a Level I Cert but a Level II Cert, Olympic Lifting Cert, Power Lifting Cert, etc. So people who apprentice in such boxes are more in line with what I thought CrossFit as a whole advocated.

I never said that it was a good idea that someone open up an affiliate with just a Level 1 Cert. I just said that is exactly what happened early on, which is a fact. Right now, if someone were to open up an affiliate without having several certs and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, I'd say that would be dumb.

chris mason
08-16-2012, 07:50 PM
How many of the 4,500 boxes have you been to?

Dozens. In addition, I have met over 200+ affiliate owners and trainers. Next question...

chris mason
08-16-2012, 07:56 PM
There we go. I trained at one box. I have looked at the programming at others. TRUE. I NEVER EVER said that all the boxes have terrible programming or terrible coaches, I never even said the box I went to had bad programming. I said they followed main site programming. You are putting words in my mouth. Please, lets not resort to that. Getting past your emotional response. What I said, more than once, is that I believe that CrossFit the movement should minimize the affiliation of "people who have been crossfitting for a while" and were able to get a weekend cert. Even you can agree that is a good thing. If you don't there is nothing more to say.

I don't deadlift 600 lbs, squat 500 or bench 400. I must not be lifting enough weight yet to get hurt while training. I am very conservative. I did tear a hammy a few years back sprinting. I have sprained ankles and broken wrists playing basketball and football. That probably does not qualify me then. If getting hurt training equates not training like a pussy, then I guess I'm shit out of luck. If I was injured from my own programming because of lack of proper form or from pushing more weight than I should, then yes it is bad programming/coaching.

What do professional athletes have to do with anything. Most of them get hurt playing their sport, not in the weight room. So what's your point. I hardly ever hear Ray Lewis got hurt doing power cleans or benching before the game, news at 11. I have heard of him getting hurt playing football though.

So let me get this straight. To really train, I must get injured in the weight room. Then I'm lifting like a man. Are you hearing yourself? That can be a topic for a different thread.

I am actually curious to hear what not training like a pussy entails. Please elucidate me.

Yes, if you have trained for any length of time and with any reasonable level of intensity some form of injury is very, very, likely (it need not be a catastrophic injury). If not, you are simply not training yourself hard and THAT is probably why at 235 lbs your lifts suck and you are a self professed "fatty".

That is not an emotional response, it is the hard truth.

And yet through all of that you feel comfortable enough to critique a fitness movement that has gotten hundreds of thousands of people (probably more than that) into the best shape of their lives.

Interesting.

Sensei
08-16-2012, 08:01 PM
No business is perfect. Your "concern" about CrossFit is ridiculous because the exact same concern could be voiced about any similar business yet you seem to want to use it to attack CrossFit and its credibility. You have a reason you feel compelled to express your opinion and it is NOT some objective assessment as you wish people here to think. What is that reason? What is it really?
Wow, you're defensive. Look, whoever the current Kool-Aid dealer is is bound to get an inordinate share of crap whether that's Westside, kettle bells, CF, 5x5, FMS, or Starting Strength. They are all fine, but when they become THE answer to all training questions, the limitations start to show themselves.

I never said I was concerned about CF. Fwiw, outside of the people I know in CF, I'm not.

I think if you (and Rory) re-read all of my posts in this thread with a clear head, you might find I don't have a beef w. CF. I did suggest that it could be A LOT better - nothing more, nothing less. Whether those "issues" (that apparently aren't issues at all to you) would get better w. a merger with this company (which I know zero about) or not, I don't know but that's how the topic of potential improvement came up.

Whatever. I've spent too much time in this already. Read it however you want.

edit - last thing, I swear - Rory, I am NOT lumping all CF boxes into one category. Not at all. Thought I made that abundantly clear when I said that I had worked with CF boxes and trainers.

chris mason
08-16-2012, 08:01 PM
Douglas, I just reread your initial post in this thread and I will say I overreacted. I misread a bit of what you were saying based on what others were saying. I have thus been overly harsh on you and for that I apologize.

chris mason
08-16-2012, 08:07 PM
"The biggest thing that pisses me off about HQ is that they constantly bitch and moan about quality and quality control, but then continue to churn out Level 1 Certifications to any dumbass with the money."

Agreed.

Chris,
No offense, but you aren't exactly impartial on any of this.

This was your first statement.

Exactly how that is not a concern or criticism escapes me. You AGREED with some pretty harsh language about CF.

The bottom line to me on your opinion of CF is that it (your opinion) seems trite. It could be stated about ANY entity no matter how perfect as all business are imperfect by nature just as are the humans that run them.

Now, as with Douglas, if I have been overly harsh with you I apologize. What I consider ridiculous bandwagon criticisms of CrossFit just irk me and get my ire up.

DoUgL@S
08-16-2012, 10:25 PM
I never said that it was a good idea that someone open up an affiliate with just a Level 1 Cert. I just said that is exactly what happened early on, which is a fact. Right now, if someone were to open up an affiliate without having several certs and have been doing CrossFit for a few years, I'd say that would be dumb.

Ok that I understand, but this is what you said earlier.


If someone goes to a certification class and passes the written test, how are they a dumbass? [B[Most people that open up a CrossFit box already have been doing CrossFit for a while before they get their certs and open up a box[/B], so I don't understand what you are talking about. I think you are just regurgitating crap you read on the internut.

This implied, at least to me, that passing the test and doing CrossFit for a while was your criteria for someone to be able to open a box. I have seen people doing Crossfit for a while, and that does not necessarily mean the are competent. If I read this out of context, then that is my mistake.

DoUgL@S
08-16-2012, 10:45 PM
Yes, if you have trained for any length of time and with any reasonable level of intensity some form of injury is very, very, likely (it need not be a catastrophic injury). If not, you are simply not training yourself hard and THAT is probably why at 235 lbs your lifts suck and you are a self professed "fatty".

That is not an emotional response, it is the hard truth.

And yet through all of that you feel comfortable enough to critique a fitness movement that has gotten hundreds of thousands of people (probably more than that) into the best shape of their lives.

Interesting.

Interesting point of view.

Yes I am more than comfortable critiquing anything. My current level of conditioning has not hing to do with common sense.


Douglas, I just reread your initial post in this thread and I will say I overreacted. I misread a bit of what you were saying based on what others were saying. I have thus been overly harsh on you and for that I apologize.

Like you said it was not an emotional response to passive aggressively say that my lifts suck because they are not as big as yours. It's ok. While the gesture is nice, don't apologize for what you believe is the truth. Again, not everyone is trying to be a powerlifter. I wont go to bed crying. I am a big boy and I think I handled myself as an adult, and that is all I can control.

If you are sincere then apology accepted and lets move on. I am done with this thread.

JustinM
08-17-2012, 11:24 PM
Before I get the "you're ignorant" comment -- I think that I have been doing CF for longer than anyone here besides Anthony, and that I am the only person here to go to Regionals as an individual (BTW, Chubrock and I joined CrossFit Wilmington around 2007 and were doing CF workouts before that -- so he's not completely ignorant).


I think CrossFit is a community with good aspects and bad aspects. The idea of competing at fitness is awesome. The events are getting better each year, but they could still improve a bit. The biggest thing for me is the programming -- I think that goal of maximizing fitness could be achieved much more efficiently by applying long (or short) conjugate sequencing with a bigger focus on injury prevention and wayyy more aerobic conditioning (in place of metcons -- I'm not advocating for less strength work). I don't think that really anyone in the community has really tried intelligently implementing this approach.

Aside from that, most of the folks I've met through CrossFit are 10 steps ahead of the top 20% of folks in the globo gyms...but, I think it is lame that almost every box is $150+/m when they have relatively cheap equipment. I do not need anything but a workout partner, and I dislike paying extra for places without an open gym policy. I also dislike how mainstream it has gotten. When I first started, the people that did CF had a very different mentality than the people I see now who heard they can lose ten pounds by doing high intensity workouts (but give low intensity and leave thinking how much they accomplished). CFHQ has also made some stupid claims like saying CF is ideal for bodybuilding and can give you a 700lb deadlift following mainsite WODs. They also have opinions on SST that I disagree with (and which are internally inconsistent). I have also noticed thst most of the educated folks in the CF community frame their fitness mindset and hnderstanding in terms of CF. This is not terrible, because it is a good system, but they usually do not understand other perspectives very well.

So, yeah, lots of random opinions about CF. Back to the underlying issue: I still don't see how Anthos purchasing 50% of CF is going to change ANYTHING. Lauren has a right to sell, and there aren't a ton of groups that have enough money to purchase from her. Whether Anthos wants a big return on its investment is immaterial. They cannot control the business. If they try, it results in gridlock. Gridlock results in them losing a ton of money.

My take on the deal is that Anthos thinks CF is highly undervalued, not so much that they plan to change the model to make it grow more. Lauren probably just has a limited number of offers...

chris mason
08-18-2012, 11:26 AM
Before I get the "you're ignorant" comment -- I think that I have been doing CF for longer than anyone here besides Anthony, and that I am the only person here to go to Regionals as an individual (BTW, Chubrock and I joined CrossFit Wilmington around 2007 and were doing CF workouts before that -- so he's not completely ignorant).

I think CrossFit is a community with good aspects and bad aspects. The idea of competing at fitness is awesome. The events are getting better each year, but they could still improve a bit. The biggest thing for me is the programming -- I think that goal of maximizing fitness could be achieved much more efficiently by applying long (or short) conjugate sequencing with a bigger focus on injury prevention and wayyy more aerobic conditioning (in place of metcons -- I'm not advocating for less strength work). I don't think that really anyone in the community has really tried intelligently implementing this approach.

Aside from that, most of the folks I've met through CrossFit are 10 steps ahead of the folks in the globo gyms...but, I think it is lame that almost every box is $150+/m when they have relatively cheap equipment. I do not need anything but a workout partner, and I dislike paying extra for places without an open gym policy.

So, yeah, lots of random opinions about CF. Back to the underlying issue: I still don't see how Anthos purchasing 50% of CF is going to change ANYTHING. Lauren has a right to sell, and there aren't a ton of groups that have enough money to purchase from her. Whether Anthos wants a big return on its investment is immaterial. They cannot control the business. If they try, it results in gridlock. Gridlock results in them losing a ton of money.

My take on the deal is that Anthos thinks CF is highly undervalued, not so much that they plan to change the model to make it grow more. Lauren probably just has a limited number of offers...

Actually, Lauren has the right to do nothing until the divorce court approves it.

As for Anthos not changing anything, you are truly ignorant on the matter. You might know something about CF training, but you obviously don't know much about private equity investing...

If Anthos is allowed to buy-in there will 100% be significant changes to the CrossFit model.

As for your argument there are better training methods for fitness, I am totally cool with that. You are definitely entitled to your opinion on that subject as you seem to know something about it.

Patz
08-18-2012, 11:41 AM
I love Crossfit and have done it religiously for over 2 years, but i know very little about the business side or internal workings so I'll happily stay out of that discussion, but...

Is there something I'm missing?

The way I see it, if Anthos changes things too much, what's to stop gym owners from just dropping affiliation, changing the gym name (if it says Crossfit in it), and continuing on with the same philosophy? As it stands, even the "Crossfit Games" competition is open to anyone, regardless of affiliation. And from what I recall you don't even have to have full affiliation to lead Crossfit workouts at your gym as long as a Level 1 is running the sessions.

It's not like McDonalds, where without the franchise you have nothing. There's no secret sauce in bumper plates and kettle bells. :)

Alex.V
08-18-2012, 01:16 PM
Before I get the "you're ignorant" comment -- I think that I have been doing CF for longer than anyone here besides Anthony,

Psst- I did crossfit for about a year back in 2002 with a buddy of mine who was a former SEAL. So I win.

/pointless comment.

chris mason
08-18-2012, 03:19 PM
I love Crossfit and have done it religiously for over 2 years, but i know very little about the business side or internal workings so I'll happily stay out of that discussion, but...

Is there something I'm missing?

The way I see it, if Anthos changes things too much, what's to stop gym owners from just dropping affiliation, changing the gym name (if it says Crossfit in it), and continuing on with the same philosophy? As it stands, even the "Crossfit Games" competition is open to anyone, regardless of affiliation. And from what I recall you don't even have to have full affiliation to lead Crossfit workouts at your gym as long as a Level 1 is running the sessions.

It's not like McDonalds, where without the franchise you have nothing. There's no secret sauce in bumper plates and kettle bells. :)


I will partially disagree with you. The CrossFit name is a huge draw for membership. I guarantee you that if you opened two gyms with the same trainer and one was CrossFit the CrossFit one would grow significantly faster. CrossFit affiliates have a 2% failure rate. That is absolutely incredible and it is not simply due to the trainers.

Rory Senseman
08-18-2012, 03:35 PM
Yeah I mean, let me try and stick with the McDonald's analogy. I'm east coast, not sure if everyone is familiar with, I don't know, how about Five Guys Burgers and Fries? Five Guys as far as a burger goes kills a McDonald's burger. But that McDonald's brand is huge!

CrossFit could drop the title, affiliates de-affiliate and start up, TrueFit or whatever. That rebranding effort however would be a huge effort and a major drop off at first. Convince affiliates to take the risk, negotiations with Reebok and ESPN have to take place. A gridlock is just as bad. Imagine you own a company, which is now hugely successful and someone's simple disagreement keeps you from any further changes or innovations when your instinct and vision has obviously served the brand well up to this point. I mean, who actually starts by giving away the product for free?

Sounds like a nightmare scenario to me.

JustinM
08-19-2012, 09:06 AM
Chris, I have a pretty good finance background, and I am a transactional attorney. I also worked for the world's top consulting firm. I have a pretty good understanding of private equity and M&A..

Anyway, the issue is not whether they want to do anything. It is that they can't. A 50% owner can force gridlock, but that is about it. They cannot implement changes. If Anthos wants to do something and Greg does not want to allow it, then it cannot be implemented. This also works the other way around, but Greg is the current CEO and gridlock would be disastrous for Anthos.

And yeah, of course the divorce court would need to approve anything. But eventually, Lauren will sell her shares, and I really doubt the judge will let Greg decide who she can/cannot sell to.

JustinM
08-19-2012, 09:09 AM
Alex - you run a 4:40ish mile with something close to those lifts? Holy shit. You must get tons of girls. Are you super tan, too?

chris mason
08-19-2012, 10:26 PM
Chris, I have a pretty good finance background, and I am a transactional attorney. I also worked for the world's top consulting firm. I have a pretty good understanding of private equity and M&A..

Anyway, the issue is not whether they want to do anything. It is that they can't. A 50% owner can force gridlock, but that is about it. They cannot implement changes. If Anthos wants to do something and Greg does not want to allow it, then it cannot be implemented. This also works the other way around, but Greg is the current CEO and gridlock would be disastrous for Anthos.

And yeah, of course the divorce court would need to approve anything. But eventually, Lauren will sell her shares, and I really doubt the judge will let Greg decide who she can/cannot sell to.

While I do not possess your experience, I would bet a lot of money you are incorrect in what they can do (my guess is you are correct in a direct sense, but perhaps not in an indirect one). My guess is there are ways they can manipulate things once they get a 50% share.

With that said, I am no expert on that front, so I won't argue that point further.

Sirtificate
08-20-2012, 05:04 AM
Sorry Chris, I am not trying to call you out. I just thought Justin was correct with his post. I am roomies with an attorney who talks about the matter and says the same. I know you said you wont argue the point and neither will I. Just wondering why you would bet money on it? Just because the all mighty dollar controls all? Like you said, I am not an expert and do not want to start an argument. I am just hearing a lot of conflicting sides on the matter and like others here would like to know why.

Patz
08-20-2012, 10:32 AM
I will partially disagree with you. The CrossFit name is a huge draw for membership. I guarantee you that if you opened two gyms with the same trainer and one was CrossFit the CrossFit one would grow significantly faster. CrossFit affiliates have a 2% failure rate. That is absolutely incredible and it is not simply due to the trainers.

I agree 100% that it's a great business model and I'm a big fan of it for the most part, but from what I know of it it's largely dependent on individuals who own gyms and do their certs and lecture work on the side. Those individuals bailing and restructuring would pull the rug right out from under HQ. Maybe I'm wrong though?

I wonder how much leverage Reebok has in this?

chris mason
08-20-2012, 09:27 PM
Sorry Chris, I am not trying to call you out. I just thought Justin was correct with his post. I am roomies with an attorney who talks about the matter and says the same. I know you said you wont argue the point and neither will I. Just wondering why you would bet money on it? Just because the all mighty dollar controls all? Like you said, I am not an expert and do not want to start an argument. I am just hearing a lot of conflicting sides on the matter and like others here would like to know why.

I would bet on it for two reasons:

1) Anthos would NOT buy a 50% share unless they thought they could change the business model. To believe anything else is naive in my opinion.

2) There always seem to be ways. Perhaps they could find a legal way to oust coach Glassman etc.?

chris mason
08-20-2012, 09:28 PM
I agree 100% that it's a great business model and I'm a big fan of it for the most part, but from what I know of it it's largely dependent on individuals who own gyms and do their certs and lecture work on the side. Those individuals bailing and restructuring would pull the rug right out from under HQ. Maybe I'm wrong though?

I wonder how much leverage Reebok has in this?

Reebok has essentially none.

Sirtificate
08-21-2012, 01:05 AM
I would bet on it for two reasons:

1) Anthos would NOT buy a 50% share unless they thought they could change the business model. To believe anything else is naive in my opinion.

2) There always seem to be ways. Perhaps they could find a legal way to oust coach Glassman etc.?

Thanks Chris! I was wondering if Anthos would try to change the business model. I am naive on this subject though. The only reason why I was asking. And your right, there are always ways.

Patz
08-22-2012, 07:20 AM
Reebok has essentially none.

As far as the divorce, no, but I think they must have some leverage behind the scenes. They're too important to Crossfit's growth at this juncture. I would imagine there are some contractual obligations there that can't be broken either. Regardless, I hope this all turns out well.

Yamar
08-23-2012, 08:17 PM
Anyone see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdw_GxGZTa0

Alex.V
08-24-2012, 01:40 PM
Alex - you run a 4:40ish mile with something close to those lifts? Holy shit. You must get tons of girls. Are you super tan, too?

I'm taken, buddy. You shameless flirt, you.

minnieapple
08-25-2012, 07:57 PM
Private equity firms seek a 5X return on investment. The want to realize it in a relatively short period of time.

I'm not sure where this 5x return meme got started (it seems to pop up in any discussion of this deal), but it is simply untrue. Think about what you are saying -- Anthos expects to make 100 million on this, and if they only make 70 or 80 then it was a bad investment.

In any event, I'm not sure why bringing in some people with business savvy will be so bad for crossfit. Look at how much more exposure the sport has since the Reebok deal.

Alex.V
08-25-2012, 08:51 PM
I'm not sure where this 5x return meme got started (it seems to pop up in any discussion of this deal), but it is simply untrue. Think about what you are saying -- Anthos expects to make 100 million on this, and if they only make 70 or 80 then it was a bad investment.


This is not a meme- private equity firms typically have very high anticipated ROI for the companies they purchase/fund to make up for the vast number of failures- 500% ROI in 2-4 years is not uncommon.

ncsuLuke
08-26-2012, 07:01 PM
Anyone see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdw_GxGZTa0

I like this version...

NvTP0xbAhVY

JustinM
08-31-2012, 10:58 PM
This is not a meme- private equity firms typically have very high anticipated ROI for the companies they purchase/fund to make up for the vast number of failures- 500% ROI in 2-4 years is not uncommon.

And they usually are highly leveraged..

minnieapple
09-20-2012, 02:32 AM
1) Anthos would NOT buy a 50% share unless they thought they could change the business model. To believe anything else is naive in my opinion.

Are people as concerned about the millions that Greg is seeking from private equity firms? Or is that somehow different?

http://anthosandcrossfit.blogspot.kr/2012/09/gregs-loan-offers-from-private-equity.html

chris mason
09-20-2012, 11:10 AM
I'm not concerned at all. He needs a lot of cash to buyout his ex. Investors are where you go for that. If Greg makes the arrangements he controls the terms of said agreement. He is not a stupid man. He will protect his interests when he does so.

minnieapple
09-20-2012, 11:47 PM
I'm not concerned at all. He needs a lot of cash to buyout his ex.

And it will take a lot of cash flow to service the debt he is planning to take on. Assume he gets the $17 million at 6%, that would be $100,000/month just to stay on top of the interest. A little while back, HQ was trying to secure a loan to buy a $700,000 plane. Now they are going to take on interest payments that are almost as much as buying two planes a year?


If Greg makes the arrangements he controls the terms of said agreement.

Why would Greg be in control? He is the borrower.

chris mason
10-02-2012, 10:51 PM
Minnie,

1) You don't know anything about the plane deal. The deal did not go through for reasons having nothing to do with credit/profitability.

2) He would be in control because as the borrower you always have the power of choice. You can accept terms offered you or not. CrossFit is quite profitable, I am quite sure there are many lenders that would be happy to work with them.

minnieapple
10-04-2012, 05:52 PM
Minnie,

1) You don't know anything about the plane deal. The deal did not go through for reasons having nothing to do with credit/profitability.

Enlighten me.

Anyway, the point about the plane was more the fact that HQ needed a loan to purchase a $700k plane. And now they are going to take on a $17 million loan that will require $1.2 million a year (almost two planes) just in interest payments?



2) He would be in control because as the borrower you always have the power of choice. You can accept terms offered you or not. CrossFit is quite profitable, I am quite sure there are many lenders that would be happy to work with them.

I had the choice to walk away my mortgage lender, does that mean I was in control of the terms of my mortgage? Of course not, it's silly to suggest otherwise. All I got to do was shop around for the best rate and points package. All the actual terms of the agreement were essentially the same and set entirely by the bank.

minnieapple
10-04-2012, 05:59 PM
People need to actually take a look at these so-called banks Greg is seeking money from.

THL Credit (http://www.thlcredit.com/junior-credit/about-junior-debt/):


THL Credit’s junior debt group invests primarily in junior capital securities of sponsored and unsponsored companies that require capital for growth, acquisitions, recapitalizations or changes of control. Such securities include subordinated, or mezzanine, debt and second lien secured debt, which may include an associated equity component such as warrants, preferred stock and other similar securities. We also selectively invest in first lien senior secured loans that generally have structures with higher interest rates, which include unitranche investments. In certain instances, we also make direct equity investments.

They are making an investment by taking a security interest in Crossfit.

And take a look at this.


Our investment approach for junior debt consists of four separate and distinct phases: (1) sourcing; (2) selecting; (3) structuring; and (4) supervising investments....

Sponsored investments are sourced via long-standing relationships and ongoing development of new relationships with private equity sponsors and their advisors who view us as a value-added partner in the transaction, rather than simply a source of capital to leverage returns.

They are NOT passive investors.

Level Equity, the other "bank" (http://www.levelequity.com/results.php)


Level Equity’s principals bring 35 years of experience investing more than $500 million across 39 growth companies. These growth businesses have completed 6 public offerings and 24 have been acquired since 1998. The firm is currently investing from Level Equity Growth Partners I, LP, a $130 million vehicle.


They have invested in 39 companies, 6 have gone public and 24 have been acquired. Do these sound like the actions of a "bank" that gives out "mortgages"? Or does it look like a typical, profit-motivated, investment firm?

JustinM
10-07-2012, 12:01 PM
Minnie, it sounds like you do not have a great grasp on corporate finance. CrossFit (Greg) will probably secure a mix of equity and various forms of debt. CrossFit will make sure that it does not sell enough equity to allow 50% of the company to be owned by a third party. Therefore, Greg will retain control of CrossFit. The excess funding will come from various forms of debt. The excess (the debt) will be significantly less than the $17 million that Glassman is apparently seeking. He will probably grant a security interest in CrossFit so that rates stay low. It will also help to have mezzanine and similar classes of debt in order to keep the rates down. There may also be some kind of baloon payment that Greg sets up.

I think it is hard to determine CrossFit's cash flow...

(Another alternative would be to just sell non-voting equity, like preferred stock ... Glassman could have the minority of the outstanding equity, but still have full control)

minnieapple
10-08-2012, 12:55 AM
CrossFit (Greg) will probably ...

Probably? So everything above was just speculation on your part.

Bottom line, if Greg/HQ are succesful in attempting to buy out Lauren's half, it is going to require taking on a huge financial burden to do so. And getting that kind of money from an investment firm isn't going to be as simple or hands-off as getting a mortgage or a car loan.