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heathj
05-07-2001, 08:58 PM
Got this friend..he is overweight and he wants to lose weight. I have talked to him for a while about it and he has motivation to actually get started. He usually eats fast food and all, because he doesn't take the time to cook. I think I have convinced him to start cooking and he says he will start going on the treadmill and all. Well, anyway..I'm not the smartest on diets and all so I was wondering if I could get some help from you people and ask if you could come up with some diet to help him lose weight and quick, but still keeping him healthy and all. Please help, thanks ;)

YatesNightBlade
05-08-2001, 01:27 AM
Getting him to do his Cardio on an empty stomach in the morning would be a good start. Also, make sure he's getting enough essential fats (Naturel peanut butter, Flax seed oil ... egg yolks etc).

If he's carb sensitive it might be an idea for him to stick to Carbs that are low Glycemic. Brown Rice, Pasta, black beans etc etc. But thats just an idea .... if fat loss is his only goal then this is probebly overkill.

No sugery foods and no fatty food ... plenty of cardio .... and he'll be slim in no time. Tell him he can have a treat once a week though.

heathj
05-08-2001, 08:00 AM
Thanks.

Chris Rodgers
05-08-2001, 09:35 AM
You don't have any friends. :rolleyes:

Cackerot69
05-08-2001, 01:39 PM
"Getting him to do his Cardio on an empty stomach in the morning would be a good start."

DO NOT do your cardio in the morning on an empty stomach.

beercan
05-08-2001, 01:51 PM
LOL@ cack telling yates he's wrong.

Do tell, why it's not a good idea...

I'm not looking to argue...I'd just like to hear why you feel this way...

Twiztid
05-08-2001, 02:01 PM
Yeah Cack.. why is that wrong?

Cackerot69
05-08-2001, 02:08 PM
I'm not going to start this whole damn thing all over again.

I've been debating it for the last 3 days at elitefitness.

Here's the link: http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7689&pagenumber=2

Anything new to add, feel free.

hemants
05-08-2001, 02:42 PM
The resolution to this debate is simple:

1. Cardio is most effective when glycogen stores are low
2. Cardio affects metabolism not only during, but also after.
3. Cardio can lead to muscle catabolism, most of which is the taking of free form Gluatamine from your muscle tissue.

Implications?

1. Do cardio first thing in the morning or after lifting weights.
2. The earlier in the day the better as the effects last until you sleep.
3. Don't eat carbs before but protein and even better, Glutamine, taken before cardio can prevent muscle catabolism.

:)

Avatar
05-08-2001, 05:01 PM
Cack I read a bit of that thread and your wrong on the order in which energy is used. You said the body uses 1. Glycogen stores
2. Muscle
3. Fat stores

Well according to every kinesiology book in print its in this order:
1. Glycogen stores
2. Fat stores
3. protein

I'd like to see where you got your info from.

BTW - Weren't we talking about this a month ago and you were saying how cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is superior?

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-08-2001, 05:06 PM
Fat is tapped into first i know that, and i do believe both fat AND muscle are broken down together in a 60% fat 40% muscle ratio.

Don't take that as text book cause it is just something that has been at the back of my mind now for some time, I'm quite sure it's correct though.

Dabomber
05-08-2001, 10:17 PM
Cack, as u said in Elite fitness that muscle will burn before fat burns, do u mean that if you do cardio 24/7 u'll have very little muscle before ur body starts to burn fat......??

I agree with CD, i did read about it somewhere and i tried to find it.. but damn i dont know where i saw it.. i'll keep looking for it though..
I believe that muscle and fat burns off at about same rate..

Good points HEMANTS

heathj
05-08-2001, 11:22 PM
So can someone tell me a good calorie/fat/carb/protein ratio for him? And help me set up a diet? This info is good, thanks.

YatesNightBlade
05-09-2001, 01:33 AM
CARDIO IS MORE PRODUCTIVE IN A MORNING ON AN EMPTY STOMACH. Im not gonna say it again.

I've tried both !!!!!! Night Cardio and Morning Cardio. The difference is shocking :eek:

I suggest you try it Cack and see if your opitions change.

beercan
05-09-2001, 05:46 AM
I agree with you, yates. Who cares what some cut and paste says. It's what happens in real life, not on some paper, that matters anyway.

Ronan
05-09-2001, 03:08 PM
nothing is better than first hand experience doing these things yourself. Learn to be sensory accute to changes within your body, every top level athlete is able to do this

Maki Riddington
05-09-2001, 04:22 PM
I agree with Yates and Beercan on the topic that fat burning can be more productive in the morning after a night of fasting.

Life4ever
05-09-2001, 07:26 PM
I think if you do an EXCESSIVE amount of cardio in the morning, muscle loss can occur. But if you do moderate levels, no more than 30 mins, I think you shouldnt have to worry about muscle loss.

Cackerot69
05-09-2001, 08:27 PM
Sorry i took so long...

Yes, cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is more effective at burning fat, i never said it wasn't. It's just that you lose so much muscle in the process. More negatives than positives. BTW, "experience" means nothing on a message board.

Avatar, did the book state weight training experience?

Maki Riddington
05-09-2001, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Cackerot69

Yes, cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is more effective at burning fat, i never said it wasn't. It's just that you lose so much muscle in the process. More negatives than positives.

I'm assuming you are theorizing on this topic?
There are other factors that need to be addressed.
To state that it will eat into your muscles is not entirely true.

Podium Kreatin
05-09-2001, 09:23 PM
cardio in most cases is catabolic no matter when u do it. what i did to lose weight was to spike my basal metabolism with intense lifting w/o breakfast. u don't emphasize burning cals during the workout, rather for the rest of the day. this sounds wierd, but it works. i never did cardio (willfully that is :)), but i have managed to drop to 4%bf with just intense lifting in the morning w/o breakfast.

Maki Riddington
05-09-2001, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Podium Kreatin
cardio in most cases is catabolic no matter when u do it.

We are talking about cardiovascular exercise right?
If so how do you explain 100-400 metre sprinters.
Are you talking about aerobic exercise?

YatesNightBlade
05-10-2001, 02:19 AM
Intense lifting in a morning without breakfast is a very very very very bad idea.

Note how many times I said very. ;)

Cackerot69
05-10-2001, 07:59 AM
Mac, or should i say Maki Riddington :)...

Yes, I am pretty much theorizing, so are you guys, there is no proof, and barely any evidence that morning cardio is superior. All we have to work with is knowledge of the body. The body is built for survival, you think it's going to burn that fat before it burns all of that excess calorie wasting muscle?

Red C
05-10-2001, 08:21 AM
If most cardio is catabolic, consuming some glutamine b4 I play rugby would help wouldnt it?

Savannah
05-10-2001, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Cackerot69

BTW, "experience" means nothing on a message board.
[/B]

First hand experience means EVERYTHING:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Cackerot69
05-10-2001, 09:07 AM
"I walked around the entire world and didn't see any circles, the earth is flat" - Anthony :)

"Experience" means absolutely nothing as we are sitting here having an online discussion. There are so many other variables that someone could overlook entirely and explain it with something completely unrelated. Besides, would science ever progress if people "proved" myths with "experience"? No.

I take advice much more seriously from someone who can back up what they say, than from someone who can say "I experienced it".

Avatar
05-10-2001, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Cackerot69

Avatar, did the book state weight training experience?

No. We are talking about cardiovascular activity.

johnny123
05-10-2001, 11:19 AM
after all this back and forth, lets discuss how to best burn the most fat and sacrifce the least muscle. glutamine before and after perhaps?

gino
05-10-2001, 11:29 AM
Cack, I think you're part of the minority then. A fat guy can spit out all the scientific jargon he wants about weight loss, but I'd rather hear from the thin guy who USED to be fat about what he did to lose the weight.

Cackerot69
05-10-2001, 12:30 PM
"No. We are talking about cardiovascular activity."

Yes, but weight training experience is important. If the individual doesn't have any weight training experience, then he doesn't have any "excess" muscle to burn. So, yes in an untrained person, fat would be burned before muscle...but if you have weight training experience, you have excess muscle (well, you should have), thus you would burn it before fat, as it is more energy consuming than fat.

Most of the population here has weight training experience.

Maki Riddington
05-10-2001, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Cackerot69
[B
but if you have weight training experience, you have excess muscle (well, you should have), thus you would burn it before fat, as it is more energy consuming than fat.
[/B]

*** Would it not depend on how low ones BF levels are?
If I were at 5% and were to try to lower it then I could see that no matter what method used unless drugs were involved some muscle would be sacrificed in the process.


Yes, I am pretty much theorizing, so are you guys, there is no proof, and barely any evidence that morning cardio is superior. All we have to work with is knowledge of the body. The body is built for survival, you think it's going to burn that fat before it burns all of that excess calorie wasting muscle?

*** Yes the body is built for survival but all to many times common sense does not suffice when trying to understand the human body.
Let me ask you this, since you're a firm believer in this theory.
What happens during a fasted state in the body up to 16 hours?
Remember that the body systems are intertwined.

Cackerot69
05-10-2001, 02:52 PM
Mac...i see you on Supertraining...i hope you find the study :)

"Would it not depend on how low ones BF levels are?
If I were at 5% and were to try to lower it then I could see that no matter what method used unless drugs were involved some muscle would be sacrificed in the process."

Yes it would matter, less fat = less stored energy. So you will burn more muscle with less bodyfat.

"Let me ask you this, since you're a firm believer in this theory.
What happens during a fasted state in the body up to 16 hours?"

After about 10 hours glycogen stores are depleted, and the body starts to catabolize muscle and fat for energy.

Maki Riddington
05-10-2001, 03:00 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cackerot69
[B]Mac...I see you on Supertraining...i hope you find the study :)

*** I have read the study but can't pinpoint where I read it. I have a feeling that it is lying in one of my books at home.

After about 10 hours glycogen stores are depleted, and the body starts to catabolize muscle and fat for energy.

*** That is to much of a general statement.
Would it not make a difference if the relation of protein synthesis and protein degradation wre brought into this?

Cackerot69
05-10-2001, 03:04 PM
"I have read the study but can't pinpoint where I read it. I have a feeling that it is lying in one of my books at home."

Was it performed on fat chicks?

"That is to much of a general statement.
Would it not make a difference if the relation of protein synthesis and protein degradation wre brought into this?"

I agree that it was too general, but so was the question. It would make a difference, yes. I don't know how much of a difference it would make at the timing of catabolism and anabolism, but the actual effects would be different.

hemants
05-10-2001, 03:18 PM
Both personal testimony and scientific "textbook" evidence have their value.

I like to use both.

When I'm overwhelmed with theory about training or fat burning, I'd much rather hear testimony from someone who has gone through a personal experience and achieved a measure of success in doing so. Testimony becomes more valuable when:

1. there is no bias
2. many people claim to have experienced similar things
3. you can relate the testimony to something you yourself have experienced.

On the other hand, science is absolutely necessary to assigning any certainty as to whether or not someone else's experience may be indicative of what you yourself may experience.

:D

Maki Riddington
05-10-2001, 03:23 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cackerot69
[B
Was it performed on fat chicks?

*** Not that I recall.

I agree that it was too general, but so was the question. It would make a difference, yes. I don't know how much of a difference it would make at the timing of catabolism and anabolism, but the actual effects would be different.

*** What I was trying to get at is that these factors are influenced by the hormonal system which as I said in the above post is intertwined with the other systems of the body.
During a fasted state GH is released in pulses even more so at certain times of the day. GH is responsable for anabolisim and lypolisis. So if there were a breakdown of protein where would it come from?
Dietary protein (consuming some before a workout)
Tissue free amino acid pools
Endogenous tissue

Each is different and since the body is in a state of anobolisim and fat is being burned maybe there might be a balancing act?

Cackerot69
05-10-2001, 03:34 PM
"During a fasted state GH is released in pulses even more so at certain times of the day. GH is responsable for anabolisim and lypolisis. So if there were a breakdown of protein where would it come from?
Dietary protein (consuming some before a workout)
Tissue free amino acid pools
Endogenous tissue"

All three. In that order, too.

Maki Riddington
05-10-2001, 03:47 PM
Cack said, Dietary protein (consuming some before a workout)
Tissue free amino acid pools
Endogenous tissue"

All three. In that order

*** Again it depends, if you didn't consume any protein then the order would change but you can't say for sure because there a host of variables involved.

This is a very complicated topic as you can see and using your logic does not suffice.
Science helps but science and experience would be the ultimate indicator if it is effective or not.

beercan
05-10-2001, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by gino
Cack, I think you're part of the minority then. A fat guy can spit out all the scientific jargon he wants about weight loss, but I'd rather hear from the thin guy who USED to be fat about what he did to lose the weight.


Well said, Gino...

Cack just wants people to listen to him, instead of me , ronan, and yates, LOL

Cutting and pasting some 120lb scientists theories ain't gonna do it....


BTW, Gino, here's another analogy for ya....I know, I want to learn some sex tips, I think I'll ask a virgin, Bwahahahahahaha

Ronan
05-10-2001, 04:19 PM
bwahahahahahahahahaha

Cackerot69
05-10-2001, 06:00 PM
"Cack, I think you're part of the minority then. A fat guy can spit out all the scientific jargon he wants about weight loss, but I'd rather hear from the thin guy who USED to be fat about what he did to lose the weight."

Who said he was fat?

Mac,

I agree. We are using generalizations here, as we do very often. It's usually best to keep things simple.

"Cutting and pasting some 120lb scientists theories ain't gonna do it...."

Yes, he disagrees with you...so that must mean he is 120lbs. :rolleyes:

"Cack just wants people to listen to him, instead of me , ronan, and yates, LOL"

When you are wrong, of course.

Anyway...this thread has deminished greatly. Mac i would love to see you produce the study, keep looking...hopefully Mel Siff can help you out. :)

Maki Riddington
05-10-2001, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Cackerot69
". Mac i would love to see you produce the study, keep looking...hopefully Mel Siff can help you out. :)

You mean Dr Siff.

beercan
05-11-2001, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Cackerot69
"

"Cack just wants people to listen to him, instead of me , ronan, and yates, LOL"

When you are wrong, of course.



Are we wrong, just because we disagree with you? :)

gino
05-11-2001, 08:11 AM
LOL @ beercan - sex tips from a virgin

Cack - that wasn't the point of that comment. You missed it entirely.

Avatar
05-11-2001, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Gino
"Cack, I think you're part of the minority then. A fat guy can spit out all the scientific jargon he wants about weight loss, but I'd rather hear from the thin guy who USED to be fat about what he did to lose the weight."


Cack, what Gino was trying to say I think was that your the fat guy, not the scientist. :o

johnny123
05-11-2001, 08:31 AM
im not sure who is on the "cardio 1st thing in the AM isnt optimal" side, but i think whoever is, should have experienced or experience putting on weight easily, and in a mostly bad way) ive been 210 at 5'9 at 25%+BF, wasnt a fun place to be, and i do my best to never be close to that again. so i just do what i can to maximize muscle and strength gain, and minimize muscle catabolism.

johnny123
05-11-2001, 08:37 AM
i guess id be the "thin guy" who used to be fat.
im 5'10 175 ~11%BF currently.

Yaz
05-11-2001, 11:05 AM
STFU - Eat your protein and get your honking ass on the treadmill. Stop making excuses!

johnny123
05-11-2001, 11:08 AM
who, me Yaz?

Yaz
05-11-2001, 11:13 AM
Yeah, you and your 11% fat boy!

Actually no, I was just screaming at anyone who thinks they can get away with doing no cardio and becoming mega lean + healthy. :D

Great job on the accomplishment. I used to be up around 28% myself. I know what you mean.

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-21-2001, 04:50 PM
So what was the final descision with this concept?

should be do morning cardio on an empty stomach or should we not due to excessive muscle breakdown?

Would doing 20 minutes of HIT interval sprinting breakdown much/any muscle compared to say 30 minutes cycling?

Tryska
11-21-2001, 05:05 PM
holy sh*t.

a thread i've never degenerated. don't worry, i'm no gonna start now....

anyways....i think Cardio in the morning definitely has it's benefits. as was mentioned earlier in this thread..muscle is going to be catabolized anytime you do cardio...however, i think th perks of doing morning anaerobic cardio would be even better....since you get a longer amount of revved metabolism from it, as opposed to having done the cardio from an endurance standpoint.

(hope that thought was lucid)

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-21-2001, 05:17 PM
how is your metabolism revved more from doing it in the morning as opposed to doing it any other time of day?

Tryska
11-21-2001, 05:21 PM
it's not...you just have more daytime hours to take advantage of it....

ie- going through you daily routine with the afterburn, as opposed to sleeping with it.....

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-21-2001, 05:21 PM
ok.

so how long [on average/approximately] can the metabolism be revved up for then?

Tryska
11-22-2001, 07:20 AM
hmm...i actually got these figures from Pualie i think in another thread....

but, if i recal correctly...with aerobic activity the metabolism is spiked 1-2 hours after, and with anaerobic 4-5?

i may be way off......so this question is Mr. Stagg.


i tried to search for the post...but the search function seems to be down again......

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-22-2001, 07:32 AM
also, would doing late night cardio not keep your metabolism revved while you sleep? or does the initiation of sleep automatically slow the metabolism?

Tryska
11-23-2001, 07:07 AM
i had forgotten i was planning on answering this question...

yes...your metabolism would be revved while you sleep....but if you truly wanna take avantage of the faster metabolism, wouldn't it make more sense to have it happen while you are relatively active so that your net calories burned would be higher?

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-23-2001, 07:12 AM
but how can you ensure that net calories burned will be higher?

Tryska
11-23-2001, 07:20 AM
i can't, however....let's look at it this way.

say your BMR is 1500

and your AMR is 2000.

say you do your HIIT in the am, thereby spiking your metabolism, say i dunno, 10kcal and hour.

are you gonna wind up burning more cals NET while you sleep or while you are active?

The_Chicken_Daddy
11-23-2001, 09:08 AM
Dunno. Just got back from the gym. My brain is scrambled. :)

Tryska
11-23-2001, 09:10 AM
k...i'll feed you the answer.

while you are active.