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pbclax1
09-12-2012, 10:18 AM
Posting this here cause there are tons of knowledgeable people here. Looking for some help on my conventional deadlift form. Right now I have my feet pretty narrow and with talking to my training partner, im going to move them out a little so it allows me to drop my hips lower...other than that, can anyone help? I always slow down about 2" above the knee. Just thought of creating this thread after seeing B.Money's deadlift progression through form changes! Here is 405x1 from a couple weeks ago that was harder than it should have been...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKKx6-0S23M

pbclax1
09-12-2012, 10:23 AM
Pulled sumo for a long time. I have been pulling conventional now for about 6 months. My best sumo was 440 and my best conventional is 445. I just haven't been able to really break past any of those numbers though.

Here are my 3/5/1 singles from last week....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z12C0fxXQFY

J L S
09-12-2012, 10:33 AM
im far from a deadlift expert but a few little things I see which are more apparent on the 405 video is you do have a very very narrow stance, you also start the pull with the bar quite far away from you.

As you bend down you can see it gets closer to your shins but it also puts alot of the weight out in front of you. Id try to sit back into your hamstrings/glutes a bit more like a hinge and try and think about pulling the bar back and in towards you rather than just up. Its quite hard to explain without a video.

try and pull your head and chest up a bit more too so they are in line or behind the bar, not way out in front of it. If you pause the 405 at 0:03-0:04 you'll see what I mean. You form is really not that bad at all though. Hopefully I've got the ball rolling for the real specialists to chime in

Kiaran
09-12-2012, 10:46 AM
I'll toss in my thoughts as well. Looks like you're using wrist wraps on that second video. Stop using those, they are gonna hold you back later on. You seem to have a lot of trouble getting your hips forward, shoulders back and knees straightened out; locking the bar out. I don't think your stance is the problem. You are fast off the floor and that is huge! Honestly I wouldn't mess with your stance, it looks good. I love a narrow stance; hips lined up with knees and ankles. How is your pullup and rowing strength? My initial guess is your quads and hamstrings are strong, but you have a weakness in your glutes and lats; ruining your lockout. I would try hitting heavy pullups and GMs for 3 weeks and see if that carries over to your lockout. Hope that helps.

pbclax1
09-12-2012, 12:50 PM
JLS - thanks, I did widen my stance some and I liked how it felt. That latest video was with a wider stance. I will really look into what you're saying and work to incorporate it.

Kiaran - appreciate the input. I rarely use straps, but at the gym here those bar's are like wet noodles. I ended up using straps because I tore up my hand a bit. Like I was saying I did move my stance out a little in that second video compared to the first. It felt pretty good. To be honest, my pullup strength is very mediocre basically only being able to do around 5x5 with bodyweight. Do you think a bent over row would be a good thing to have on deadlift day?

BloodandThunder
09-12-2012, 01:55 PM
Watch your back angle as it's almost parallel to the floor when you break the bar from the ground. Has alot to do with hamstrings. Pry your chest up while working that lumbar arch hard before the bar breaks the floor. Your speed around your sticking point has alot more to do with your setup and initial drive than it does a clear individual weakness.

RDLs and dimel deads are prob your best bet for accessory exercises. You need to learn to squeeze the glutes and drive your hips through once the bar passes the knee. As long as the bar isn't getting away from you, your lats are not holding you back; that said, stronger lats and upper back never hurt a conventional pull.

pbclax1
09-12-2012, 02:25 PM
Watch your back angle as it's almost parallel to the floor when you break the bar from the ground. Has alot to do with hamstrings. Pry your chest up while working that lumbar arch hard before the bar breaks the floor. Your speed around your sticking point has alot more to do with your setup and initial drive than it does a clear individual weakness.

RDLs and dimel deads are prob your best bet for accessory exercises. You need to learn to squeeze the glutes and drive your hips through once the bar passes the knee. As long as the bar isn't getting away from you, your lats are not holding you back; that said, stronger lats and upper back never hurt a conventional pull.
Yeah I did notice my back angle being almost parallel to the floor. That is something I've been trying to work on but I can't seem to 'sit down' like I should be and its really pissing me off, any tips for that?

RDL's and dimel deads sound like a plan. I had seen Justin Randal's dimel deads against bands, was going to try that out for working the glutes and hips.

miguel7
09-12-2012, 02:34 PM
I'll toss in my thoughts as well. Looks like you're using wrist wraps on that second video. Stop using those, they are gonna hold you back later on. You seem to have a lot of trouble getting your hips forward, shoulders back and knees straightened out; locking the bar out. I don't think your stance is the problem. You are fast off the floor and that is huge! Honestly I wouldn't mess with your stance, it looks good. I love a narrow stance; hips lined up with knees and ankles. How is your pullup and rowing strength? My initial guess is your quads and hamstrings are strong, but you have a weakness in your glutes and lats; ruining your lockout. I would try hitting heavy pullups and GMs for 3 weeks and see if that carries over to your lockout. Hope that helps.

I totally agree if yiu bring hips in faster once you pass your knees. I think you will lock out better. And i quote bloodand thunder. I watched this video 20 times. His right angle of back is off. And I still am trying to figure out how lucky you got setting bar down like that in one lift video. I did same thing you did and i was light heated leaned a lil to far forward an bam blew it out. I swear i thought you were gonna grab your back when you set it down

loganchristophe
09-13-2012, 05:54 AM
I fear for your back even if you wear a belt.

Get your bar closely to your shins, get your deltoids 2-5 centimeters in front of the bar, stick your a** out, get your chest high up and close with your hips rather than with your back as you did in almost all of your moves

pbclax1
09-13-2012, 08:03 AM
Really appreciate all the comments and help. Tonight is just 5's on pulls up to a medium weight (350x5). Going to get my hips lower and work on returning the bar to the floor via an RDL movement, not just dropping it straight down like I have been like an idiot.

joey54
09-13-2012, 10:39 AM
Loosen your belt 1 notch

pbclax1
09-13-2012, 10:42 AM
Loosen your belt 1 notch
Keep the belt loose? I will do that tonight, what is the reason for doing this?

BloodandThunder
09-13-2012, 10:55 AM
Keep the belt loose? I will do that tonight, what is the reason for doing this?

Sometimes an overly tight belt can cause you to lose your air, shift your setup, or cause discomfort to your ribs. It also minimizes the ability to actively push out against it.

Stick to Dimels, light weight, moving fast, 2-3 sets of 20 as accessory. No need to complicate things with bands on them. There's a good video of Dave Tate teaching them on Youtube. Either that or perform 3-4 sets of 5-8 reps of RDLs with a modest weight and focus on pushing those hard over a few cycles after your 5/3/1 squats.

You need to work on your setup as your other videos show a rounded lumbar prior to breaking the bar off the ground. Work on your hamstring flexibility and focus on prying your chest up as you arch very hard off the ground. This poor starting position transfers over to your lockout (as said, it's not really a singular weakness as much as it's just a mechanics issue). If I was to put 80% on the bar and have you pull it to right below your knees and hold it 3-4 secs before locking it out, you'd be hunched over with a terrible inability to push your glutes through and lockout cleanly. Fix this issue now before it becomes a tendency, otherwise you'll begin to hitch 90%+ weights commonly.

pbclax1
09-13-2012, 11:07 AM
Sometimes an overly tight belt can cause you to lose your air, shift your setup, or cause discomfort to your ribs. It also minimizes the ability to actively push out against it.

Stick to Dimels, light weight, moving fast, 2-3 sets of 20 as accessory. No need to complicate things with bands on them. There's a good video of Dave Tate teaching them on Youtube. Either that or perform 3-4 sets of 5-8 reps of RDLs with a modest weight and focus on pushing those hard over a few cycles after your 5/3/1 squats.

You need to work on your setup as your other videos show a rounded lumbar prior to breaking the bar off the ground. Work on your hamstring flexibility and focus on prying your chest up as you arch very hard off the ground. This poor starting position transfers over to your lockout (as said, it's not really a singular weakness as much as it's just a mechanics issue). If I was to put 80% on the bar and have you pull it to right below your knees and hold it 3-4 secs before locking it out, you'd be hunched over with a terrible inability to push your glutes through and lockout cleanly. Fix this issue now before it becomes a tendency, otherwise you'll begin to hitch 90%+ weights commonly.
Thank you. Would it be ok to do the dimel's on deadlift day and still have RDLs as a squat day accessory?

I will work on my setup as I really don't want this to become a tendency and I'm the only one who determines whether it does or not.

BloodandThunder
09-13-2012, 02:22 PM
Personally I've always used RDLs as a supplementary lift after speed squats on DE day or after squatting on say a squat 5/3/1 day. It's up to you where you place them. Just don't do overkill and ensure you're recovering. Dimels to me were always more of a glute accessory because you do them very light (135-225) and high rep, accelerating hard each rep through lockout. So you could add like 1 or 2 sets at the end of the other day.

If you're doing 5/3/1, you could periodize the RDLs so 4x8 on your 5's week, 4 x 6 on your 3's week, 4 x 5 on your 5/3/1 week (increasing the weight, largest volume on 5's week, lowest volume on 5/3/1 week). Do these after your 5/3/1 squats. The next wave, try doing 3 sets and increase the intensity/weight. A good 2-3 waves of RDLs will do great things.

What matters most is your progress and your technique/form become better on your main sets though.

A good setup for you might be (and I'm not sure of how you're approaching squats):
5/3/1 Squat, RDLs, Quad accessory, Abs/Erectors
Speed or Squat alternative, 5/3/1 DL, GHR, Dimels, Abs

miguel7
09-13-2012, 03:05 PM
Im sorry I so totally disagree with loose belt loudly. Just to make sure I'm correct in general consenous. I watched 10 deadlift videos of bodybuilders. All were wearing belt as tight as they could get it. Im sorry to disagree even i cinch mine up. Blow your back out once you'll never wanna do it again.

pbclax1
09-13-2012, 09:08 PM
Tonights pulls....

I worked on getting my hips down a lot more. Also did wear my belt a notch loose and what do you know, the tighter belt was creating a false sense of tightness. Form is still a work in progress, need a lil more neutral/arched back but overall I feel it is a really big improvement. Now to keep it when I'm in the 90%+ range. I also found if my shins are too vertical I feel like I have no power so I need to make sure to shift my knees forward a tad bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X0A8iAAUNY

Thanks for all the help guys and continue to critique!

RFabsik
09-13-2012, 10:22 PM
Looks better, strong work.
My only comment would be on the way down get the knees back more so you are not rolling the bar around your knee.

Great depth on the SSB.

pbclax1
09-13-2012, 10:45 PM
Thank you. I see what you are saying on the way down, thanks for the tip!

BloodandThunder
09-14-2012, 08:34 AM
My 0.02.

One thing I've had conventional pullers who use the same setup as you do (sitting the hips back with straight legs) is to set their lumbar arch while they are in that position. Freeze frame at 0:01 and see how you're already slouched. You're doing a better job of prying the chest up before breaking the bar off the ground. Ensure you're pulling the slack out of the bar and try to break the bar off the ground at the same time as your hips rise. If you're locking out your legs too early, this is typically a sign of weak hamstrings since you've essentially used all knee extension to get the bar up. With regards to your lockout, bring the bar to your hips, not your hips to the bar. From the side view, you should be pulling back as the shoulders round as you lockout for a more efficient lockout (watch how Konstantin or Bolton locks out for example).

You mentioned you were a sumo puller? Did you ever do accessory work for the erectors while pulling sumo? It seems your entire back is just very loose and lax as you pull and squat with the SSB. With regards to the SSB, your developing a tendency to "buttwink" at the bottom to make depth. This inhibits your ability to keep your erectors tight as you come up so your back angle completely collapses and you end up GMing the weight up. The buttwink is typically a result of tight hamstrings and a lack of flexibility. I'd take a guess and say that you most likely use a belt on most squatting/DL exercises and use it with low intensities.

The loose belt makes sense. This tells me you're not pushing hard enough into the belt with the abs. Ensure you're holding your air through the belly and actively pushing out on the belt. I'd say ditch the belt until your last two sets on the 5/3/1 and focus hard on developing your arch.

The RDL/dimels will definitely solve alot of issues as well as your continued focus on technique and form on your main sets. You'll most likely notice not only better hip extension to lockout your DLs but a better transition from the floor to your shin. You noticed that by keeping your shins vertical you have very little power, which is dead on (poor hamstring flexibility and strength and vertical shins reduce the amount your quads will contribute)

You've got a great attitude and these issues I'm sure will go away with more hard work.

pbclax1
09-14-2012, 10:19 AM
My 0.02.

One thing I've had conventional pullers who use the same setup as you do (sitting the hips back with straight legs) is to set their lumbar arch while they are in that position. Freeze frame at 0:01 and see how you're already slouched. You're doing a better job of prying the chest up before breaking the bar off the ground. Ensure you're pulling the slack out of the bar and try to break the bar off the ground at the same time as your hips rise. If you're locking out your legs too early, this is typically a sign of weak hamstrings since you've essentially used all knee extension to get the bar up. With regards to your lockout, bring the bar to your hips, not your hips to the bar. From the side view, you should be pulling back as the shoulders round as you lockout for a more efficient lockout (watch how Konstantin or Bolton locks out for example).

You mentioned you were a sumo puller? Did you ever do accessory work for the erectors while pulling sumo? It seems your entire back is just very loose and lax as you pull and squat with the SSB. With regards to the SSB, your developing a tendency to "buttwink" at the bottom to make depth. This inhibits your ability to keep your erectors tight as you come up so your back angle completely collapses and you end up GMing the weight up. The buttwink is typically a result of tight hamstrings and a lack of flexibility. I'd take a guess and say that you most likely use a belt on most squatting/DL exercises and use it with low intensities.

The loose belt makes sense. This tells me you're not pushing hard enough into the belt with the abs. Ensure you're holding your air through the belly and actively pushing out on the belt. I'd say ditch the belt until your last two sets on the 5/3/1 and focus hard on developing your arch.

The RDL/dimels will definitely solve alot of issues as well as your continued focus on technique and form on your main sets. You'll most likely notice not only better hip extension to lockout your DLs but a better transition from the floor to your shin. You noticed that by keeping your shins vertical you have very little power, which is dead on (poor hamstring flexibility and strength and vertical shins reduce the amount your quads will contribute)

You've got a great attitude and these issues I'm sure will go away with more hard work.

I appreciate all the time you took to write that huge post.

I will work on setting the lumbar arch while im straight legged. Yes, I used to pull primarily sumo. I would do some deficit pulls here and there but erector work I cant think of off hand that I did. I do use my belt on most squatting and deadlifting exercises but I don't put it on til my last 1 or 2 sets of the day, I go as long as I can with no belt. Usually thats up to around 315 pulls and 275-315 squat depending.

Any particular hamstring stretches you are a fan of?