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View Full Version : Do you use speed (dynamic effort method) in your training?



Travis Bell
02-07-2013, 07:36 AM
Pretty much what the title says. Do you use it? Why or why not?

Obviously you all know where I stand on the issue but I'm interested in hearing what you all have to say.

I'm noticing a trend (maybe i'm imagining it) that it seems a lot of guys are doing away with speed training.

Brian Hopper
02-07-2013, 08:19 AM
I've gotten away from it since I've gone raw. I'm always back and forth with speed bench, and after this meet, I plan on adding it back in. Because I have noticed a difference with my speed when I'm doing it or not. As far as my squat and deadlift, every now and then I'll do speed pulls vs bands in my jump stretch board, but I haven't in awhile. Not sure when the last time I did speed squats.

When I was in gear, I followed a basic WSB template. So the speed work was there.

Darracq
02-07-2013, 02:51 PM
I dont do it, i am pretty thin and i feel like i need more rep work, and speed bench kills my junky shoulders lol.

Buccos1
02-07-2013, 06:52 PM
I never did any speed or band work... ever, until about 2 months ago. I was looking to change things up and adopted a few things I read about from Westside. In the past few months, my bench has climbed, both shirted and raw! The only thing I have changed in my bench routine has been the speed work. In addition to bringing my bench numbers up, the change-in-pace has me looking forward to something "new" each week.

chris mason
02-07-2013, 09:11 PM
I do speed work, yes. If you do it as prescribed in Westside you are using pretty heavy loads. For instance, 50% bar weight plus bands which are roughly 25% at the top means you are using 75% at the top and probably 65% at the bottom, so you are really training the strength speed end of the spectrum. Training in that fashion allows you to generate a high degree of force in a shorter timeframe for max effort movements. In other words, it directly benefits it. You also get more volume which can help with the contractile elements of strength.

DontTakeEmOff31
02-07-2013, 09:21 PM
I haven't started speed work yet, mostly because I feel I'm still building my base and my form. Any attempt at speed work right now for me is always extremely sloppy. Until I feel more consistent with my form (i.e lowering the bar the exact same each time, something I really struggle with) I probably won't incorporate it.

I do lots of jumps and throws though, boxes and hurdles etc.

Jonathan E
02-07-2013, 11:31 PM
I do it in varied fashions with football training.

ScottYard
02-08-2013, 05:16 PM
I have in the past but had to cut it loose as 2x a week benching was tearing me up. I went 3-4 years without it and then added it back in for a meet cycle and again felt tore up. I think it helps if you can handle the extra work

Brian Hopper
02-08-2013, 05:53 PM
Scott, didn't you add speed work in after your regular bench work (I think I got the idea from you, lol)? I also felt beat up from benching 2x a week. But I did add some speed work after my bench session and it worked out for me. Eventually I ended up getting away from it and not sure why.

MarcusWild
02-08-2013, 09:46 PM
Yes. I'm not sure experienced lifters need to do it every week though. I think you hit a point of diminishing returns. I think if speed work is done every 2-3 weeks, then that's often enough. The trick is what to do instead of it. If you do something with too much intensity, then it impacts ME day. I try to stick to the principal of lower intensity and higher volume regardless of if I do DE work or something else.

NickAus
02-09-2013, 05:24 AM
Yes, big fan of speed work.

Always enjoy speed days!

ScottYard
02-09-2013, 09:15 AM
Scott, didn't you add speed work in after your regular bench work (I think I got the idea from you, lol)? I also felt beat up from benching 2x a week. But I did add some speed work after my bench session and it worked out for me. Eventually I ended up getting away from it and not sure why.

I did. I started adding speed work after my heavy bench work. Due to time and energy I replaced it with top end work and more time for triceps.

Travis Bell
02-09-2013, 10:25 AM
Since we are kinda more focusing on bench at this point, I'll direct my question towards that.

When you guys say you were tore up from benching twice a week, what exactly felt tore up?

I realize as a bench only lifter I often can forego squat or deadlift training if I have to, to recover from benching, but it rarely happens. Actually I often do two workouts on ME day and still feel good to go on DE day for speed bench. I know a common thing I hear is beat up triceps or elbows, or sometimes biceps. Is it a weight thing? Technique thing?

I'm just curious as to what causes people to drop the DE bench is all.

ScottYard
02-09-2013, 12:19 PM
Sore elbows, shoulders, and per tendons. Not to mention my low back from 2 days a week of hard arching and leg drive.

gaz90
02-09-2013, 01:32 PM
i like speed work but it kills the lower part of my right bicep.(90% sure its the tendon but correct me if im wrong)

bought some TK sleeves, also stopped lowering the weight so damn fast, thankfully i am now able to keep using it without any pain

naites
02-09-2013, 09:46 PM
So many people don't know how to do speed benching. On an above post one guy said 50% and then bands on top of that (25% more).

That is totally wrong. Yeah you can move that with decent speed but NOT real speed.

Look at Travis bells logs. He is well below 50%. BTW the %'s are based on chest level including bands/chains when deloaded at chest level.

Also, speed training is just not for making max weights move faster. A load of 100% of your max will pretty much always move the same speed no matter how strong you are.

Speed training really helps train more muscle motor units. It recruits a hell of a lot more muscle than say lifting that same weight slowly. This is a big difference between to dudes who are the same size and build. The stronger dude more than likely is more coordinated and can recruit in more muscle motor units at once. Thus lifting way more weight and seemingly looking way more explosive! Speed training helps this!!!!!!

But I do understand it can be harder on the body obviously. Moving 225 for slow reps is nothing and hardly any force. But 225 fast as hell (2.5 secs for all 3 reps) generates a hell of a lot of force!

RFabsik
02-09-2013, 11:24 PM
Naites--never heard anyone choosing band percentages the way you do. Maybe I misunderstood your post. But the standard is somewhere between 50-60% of weight plus band or chains that are around 25% at the top. Some go a little lower and some a little higher. Speed being the determining factor.

Paulo_Santos
02-10-2013, 04:31 AM
I do speed bench, speed press, speed squats, and speed pulls on a regular basis. I alternate them each week. I use 40% for my speed bench and speed press. It works well for me and I believe it is the reason my bench is going up.

naites
02-10-2013, 12:21 PM
Pretty sure Louie bases his percents off the weights at chest level. But you are right, it's all based on the speed. But most people can't feel this correctly. Sure I can rep 405 for 3 fast but not SPEED fast like I can do 225 lbs. Some people need an experienced eye to watch this.

chris mason
02-10-2013, 02:46 PM
Naites, pretty sure I know Louie's system a bit better than you. I have worked many seminars with him, know him personally (stay at his house when I visit), and have trained at Westside many times.

What I said was 100% correct... Now, some of the Westside guys go as low as 40% or so bar load and the band tension isn't always 25% exactly (as there are only a few sets of bands used with speed benching and their resistance is more or less set), but those guidelines are quite accurate.

The purpose of DE work in the Westside system sure as hell is to increase your ability to move big loads quickly via the ability to generate peak force in a shorter period of time. They serve the additional purpose of adding training volume and preventing overtraining because the vast majority of lifters cannot tolerate 2 ME days per week for any length of time.

naites
02-10-2013, 03:17 PM
Chris, I have also been to a few seminars and met Louie (trained there a few times) so don't just assume you know more ;) Been training the Westside methods since 1998. You? 800+ bench at 242 class for some backup ;)

We both made some valid points on why we do speed lifting. I agree with both of us.

vdizenzo
02-10-2013, 03:18 PM
I have used speed work for the past couple of years. However, in working with Josh Bryant, right now we figure my speed is such a strength that it won't suffer. More importantly I need the day to recovery. Especially considering my age. We'll see how it goes.

Travis Bell
02-10-2013, 09:04 PM
So many people don't know how to do speed benching. On an above post one guy said 50% and then bands on top of that (25% more).

That is totally wrong. Yeah you can move that with decent speed but NOT real speed.

Look at Travis bells logs. He is well below 50%. BTW the %'s are based on chest level including bands/chains when deloaded at chest level.

Actually Louie teaches the 50% bar weight is a guideline. Most of rest of the guys at Westside use similar percentages as I do.

As a person gets stronger, more times than not their percentages will go lower and lower. My best raw bench is 575 so I'd need to be using about 285lbs bar weight. I know I can't move 285 with bands or chains at the speed necessary to make it beneficial.

However I think we are actually saying the same thing here.


Also, speed training is just not for making max weights move faster. A load of 100% of your max will pretty much always move the same speed no matter how strong you are.

I'll have to disagree here. There's plenty of research out there about the stretch reflex and training it. Dynamic effort training greatly helps increase the efficiency of the stretch reflex, which in turn will help you move max weights faster than it would without DE work.



Speed training really helps train more muscle motor units. It recruits a hell of a lot more muscle than say lifting that same weight slowly. This is a big difference between to dudes who are the same size and build. The stronger dude more than likely is more coordinated and can recruit in more muscle motor units at once. Thus lifting way more weight and seemingly looking way more explosive! Speed training helps this!!!!!!

I'm not sure there is any real way to quantify this or really prove it. I understand what you're saying about recruiting motor units, but speed training really doesn't improve or hurt this. Motor units are recruited the same whether or not you are moving a weight fast or slow. however the stretch reflex and training to use it is what's effected.


But I do understand it can be harder on the body obviously. Moving 225 for slow reps is nothing and hardly any force. But 225 fast as hell (2.5 secs for all 3 reps) generates a hell of a lot of force!

True.


Chris, I have also been to a few seminars and met Louie (trained there a few times) so don't just assume you know more ;) Been training the Westside methods since 1998. You? 800+ bench at 242 class for some backup ;)

We both made some valid points on why we do speed lifting. I agree with both of us.

That's a solid bench right there. If you trained there between 2005 and now, you probably trained with me? Although I was on the bench only crew for a year when I started. I've been with Lou since then.

Travis Bell
02-10-2013, 09:10 PM
I'm only arguing from the point of what Louie teaches. On that I think I know pretty well lol.

As far as the topic of whether or not any of you feel DE is effective or not is obviously up to everyone's experience and opinion, which is what I'm more interested in hearing.

Obviously any one form of training isn't going to work for everyone around the world. However what I find curious is often times the things that people get frustrated with in the speed training is due to ocassionally confusion or misunderstanding.

Honestly though having a coach like Louie does help greatly.

kingns
02-10-2013, 09:23 PM
Like most people on here I have gone back and fourth.But right now Im benching mostly like all the articles say, and my bench has blown up. Last time I did regular bench for my ME lift I hit a 15 lb pr and almost a 30lb pr.
I think using bands for speed work tends to beat you up more than chains, so I have been only using chains and just been varying the way I set up the chains to add variety.

Theres no one way to train, but FOR ME benching 9x3, different grips, with very short rest and bands or chains on the bar makes my raw bench stronger.

RhodeHouse
02-11-2013, 08:40 AM
I think it's a part of training that should be addressed, but it depends on your strengths as a lifter how important it is.

I'm pretty explosive. I don't feel it's necessary for me to use. I push all of my stes with maximal force. For those that are just plain slow, I think it has it's place in their training.

For those with no muscle, it's a waste of time. You can't flex bone. No need for speed work if you can see or feel bones in your chest, shoulders and arms. It's just like speed training for athletes. if you're weak and have no muscle, speed training is a waste.

SEOINAGE
02-11-2013, 10:47 AM
I don't usually use speed work on bench, although I am implementing it now for a few weeks till competition since I can bench more frequent with it. I find I make better bench progress doing a 5x5 with straight weight, helps my raw bench moreso than speed work ever does.

I still do speed squats about every other week, although doing it more now for a bit. It seems to help fairly well, although not so much that I am neglecting my regular squats, do a fair amount of 5 rep work with them.

naites
02-11-2013, 12:47 PM
You do know you can still do speed bench and also your other work as well. For example, you can do speed 9 sets of 3 (only takes like 10 mins!). Then you can do your 5x5 sets since you feel that helps you.

When I hear people say they hate this or that it's almost as if they think we do speed/max effort lift then leave the gym and are done. hehe

Some guys do speed sets followed by 5x5 on an assistance press or 3 sets of 6 on a heavy assistance press or some just do lighter high rep stuff like 3/5 sets of 10+ reps on something like extensions.

Why not get the best of all worlds?

Travis Bell
02-11-2013, 05:04 PM
I think it's a part of training that should be addressed, but it depends on your strengths as a lifter how important it is.

I'm pretty explosive. I don't feel it's necessary for me to use. I push all of my stes with maximal force. For those that are just plain slow, I think it has it's place in their training.

For those with no muscle, it's a waste of time. You can't flex bone. No need for speed work if you can see or feel bones in your chest, shoulders and arms. It's just like speed training for athletes. if you're weak and have no muscle, speed training is a waste.

I see your point, however if it were just all genetics, those of us who are considered explosive wouldn't have to train said reflex at all ever. Just because you have the genetic potential doesn't mean you are automatically there or once you attain your genetic potential you stay there for the rest of your life.

One of the things I see is guys get stuck in a rut with their DE stuff. They do the same two or three workouts for years and that's why they quit getting faster. I've been guilty of this myself. You have to constantly be changing stuff to make it work. Just like jump workouts for athletes. If you do the same box jump workout all the time, an athlete won't get any better at their vertical.

I can tolerate quite a bit of volume on training, but I think 5x5 after speed sets would be too much. Combining the two for me at least would get me in trouble. I could see overuse injuries in my near future should I try that.

chris mason
02-11-2013, 09:01 PM
Chris, I have also been to a few seminars and met Louie (trained there a few times) so don't just assume you know more ;) Been training the Westside methods since 1998. You? 800+ bench at 242 class for some backup ;)

We both made some valid points on why we do speed lifting. I agree with both of us.

You most certainly outbench me, then again, I would guess I can pull more than you. Have we compared dicks sufficiently now?

I do know more than you. I say that based upon what you had to say about speed benching. You are wrong. It's that simple. Now, that doesn't mean you don't know anything, nor does it mean you are not strong, it means you are wrong in what you stated about DE bench work as it relates to Westside and the principles upon which is it based.

chris mason
02-11-2013, 09:08 PM
I think it's a part of training that should be addressed, but it depends on your strengths as a lifter how important it is.

I'm pretty explosive. I don't feel it's necessary for me to use. I push all of my stes with maximal force. For those that are just plain slow, I think it has it's place in their training.

For those with no muscle, it's a waste of time. You can't flex bone. No need for speed work if you can see or feel bones in your chest, shoulders and arms. It's just like speed training for athletes. if you're weak and have no muscle, speed training is a waste.

Not really. Again, you have to consider what it is. With the addition of the accomodating resistance you are using between roughly 65-75% of your 1RM for multiple sets of 3 reps (8-9 sets). That is a fair amount of volume with a reasonable resistance. If you move through the sets relatively quickly they can certainly provide a hypertrophy stimulus especially for those who are relatively undeveloped.

You also have to be careful how you are defining speed training as it applies to athletes. Are we talking strength speed, or speed strength?

naites
02-12-2013, 10:46 AM
Wow, what a class act you are Mr. Admin!

joey54
02-12-2013, 11:39 AM
Well it takes two to tango. You are the one who choose to argue with the owner of the site, who does know quite a bit about training. It seems you do as well and in the big picture, this little bickering back and forth should not de-rail an informative topic.

Alex.V
02-12-2013, 11:51 AM
Aye, if y'all just hugged it out, it'd be some great conversation.

Well, don't actually hug it out. Nobody wants to see that. But you know what I mean.

Justin Randal
02-12-2013, 01:41 PM
Speed work is a huge part of my training! For those of you who say you don't need it, that's fine by me. I'll leave no stone unturned and be as well rounded as possible. Thanks for the edge!!

Justin Randal
02-12-2013, 03:58 PM
Chris,

Though I understand the difference between strength speed and speed strength, Wouldn't you say they are directly related? What I mean to ask is- Does speed strength development directly effect strength speed? In my experience the answer is yes, I just don't know why. Please discuss..

Brian Hopper
02-12-2013, 06:38 PM
Since we are kinda more focusing on bench at this point, I'll direct my question towards that.

When you guys say you were tore up from benching twice a week, what exactly felt tore up?

I realize as a bench only lifter I often can forego squat or deadlift training if I have to, to recover from benching, but it rarely happens. Actually I often do two workouts on ME day and still feel good to go on DE day for speed bench. I know a common thing I hear is beat up triceps or elbows, or sometimes biceps. Is it a weight thing? Technique thing?

I'm just curious as to what causes people to drop the DE bench is all.

Travis, I think my problem was that I would do my regular bench session heavy and then a couple days later I would do speed bench. So I was pretty much flat benching 2x a week. I think If I took a more WSB approach by doing floor presses, reverse band, boards, inclines, and throwing in different bars, then I wouldn't get burned out. But for me, flat benching all the time around 85-95% and then adding in speed work, was killing me more mentally then physically...maybe that's why my bench is at a stand still...???

Travis Bell
02-12-2013, 06:48 PM
Wow, what a class act you are Mr. Admin!

What on earth was so wrong with what he said? If we are discussing purely in reference to what Louie says and Westside practices, Chris is right. Unless I have misunderstood what Lou has pounded into me for the last 7 years.

No need to get upset though. You both actually agree on the necessity of dynamic effort work so I don't see the problem. You experience is welcomed though. I enjoy hearing everyones experience with different training methods.


Chris,

Though I understand the difference between strength speed and speed strength, Wouldn't you say they are directly related? What I mean to ask is- Does speed strength development directly effect strength speed? In my experience the answer is yes, I just don't know why. Please discuss..

Even though they are related, you still need to train both of them to get the combined effect.

I believe it was in Supertraining (the book, not the gym) where they pointed out that in the absence of any dynamic work, as the body gets stronger and stronger it will also perform slower. So that's where the dynamic work really comes into effect.

How do you all vary your DE work? In my experience DE work needs to be varied all the time to keep you moving forward.

Travis Bell
02-12-2013, 06:50 PM
Travis, I think my problem was that I would do my regular bench session heavy and then a couple days later I would do speed bench. So I was pretty much flat benching 2x a week. I think If I took a more WSB approach by doing floor presses, reverse band, boards, inclines, and throwing in different bars, then I wouldn't get burned out. But for me, flat benching all the time around 85-95% and then adding in speed work, was killing me more mentally then physically...maybe that's why my bench is at a stand still...???


Ah, I could see that. So what are you doing instead of the speed bench? Or just nothing and rehabbing instead?

Brian Hopper
02-12-2013, 07:03 PM
Ah, I could see that. So what are you doing instead of the speed bench? Or just nothing and rehabbing instead?

I was going back in forth, with close grip work and shoulder presses. But latley i've been trying to work on my OHP. Since you started this post, I've been thinking about going back to a more WS approach with my bench.

Travis Bell
02-12-2013, 08:04 PM
i suppose everyone's body responds differently. After the thrashing my upper body takes on ME days, there is no way I could survive a OHP workout a few days after.

naites
02-12-2013, 10:16 PM
Of coarse Chris is right and I am completely wrong! Travis so you are using 75% at the top and probably 65% at the bottom? Pretty sure you are well below those percents and so should most lifters. So 540 lbs at bottom and 620 at top for a lifter at your max bench level. haha

I know you will all say yeah he uses less percents because he is advanced. But a beginner should not be a whole lot different in percents. Higher, yes but not that drastic. Here's an example of a beginner that presses 450 in a shirt:
If he used 50% plus 25% bands then he would basically be using Travis' bar weight!!! Not a good idea. 50% of 450 is 225 lbs. Now add the mini bands. That's another 80'ish lbs. So 300+ at lockout. This lifter will move the weight ok but not with the force/speed that say Travis is moving the bar at.

So like I said before it's better to base the %'s off the chest level. ALso, I am pretty sure Louie has even said this before. I know Dave Tate has many times back when I talked with him back around 2001 when I visited. I know, I know Louie is documented and saying a lot of things that are similar but different. Like sometimes the speed is 40%, 50%, 60% or based on your floor press, etc......
OK, back to basing it off chest level for lifters. We will use 50% for the beginner. 450 lbs bench press, 50% is 225. But the band is about 50 lbs at chest level so we need to subtract that from the bar NOT add it. So this lifter will use 175 lbs + the mini band. Now he is well below Travis like he should be. Also using a higher percent than Travis as beginners tend to do.

Anyone see my point here??? Why am I being viewed as so wrong?

It's a common mistake beginners make and use weights too heavy. In some cases a lot of advanced lifters go too heavy as well. I have seen benchers that press in the 600's using 315-365 plus bands/chains for their speed sets!!! Decent speed but not real speed.

Sorry to use you as an example Travis. But you are a good example of an Elite bencher training these methods.

RFabsik
02-12-2013, 10:55 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but for bench doesn't Louie recommend using raw numbers or floor press not shirted bench? This would make the bar weight closer to what Naites is suggesting but using Chris's method of calculation.

Travis Bell
02-12-2013, 10:56 PM
haha Louie is VERY clear, you use raw percentages.

No you don't use your floor press or board press or whatever. You use your comp grip, full range bench - raw. Not equipped. But yes the weight is as low as 40%

I use between 245 and 275lbs bar weight for my speed bench. That's around 40-45%. However Louie has me switching band tensions and bars around pretty regularly so I just do what he says.

I can't believe I'm arguing about what my own coach does or does not teach haha. You are being viewed wrong because instead of arguing from your own perspective, you are trying to indicate you know better than I do what Louie himself recommends and teaches. I've been there for a very long time, I know what I'm talking about. The stuff you are recalling is bits and pieces that were used even before I was there. But even then it's still a little mixed up but I don't really want to bog down this thread with that.

Now if you want to argue from your own point of view and opinion then that's fine. What works for you has worked and nobody can say differently.

Why not just say that you see a lot of beginner lifters use too much weight and their form will fall apart and the speed is of no benefit?

To which I'd reply I agree. A lot of lifters need to begin without the percentages.

However the percentages is a way to keep the speed bench moving in a positive direction. That's why you wave it. In addition to varying tensions, grips and bars, varying percentages is a good way to change yet another variable.

Travis Bell
02-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but for bench doesn't Louie recommend using raw numbers or floor press not shirted bench? This would make the bar weight closer to what Naites is suggesting but using Chris's method of calculation.

Correct he does recommend using raw numbers.

chris mason
02-12-2013, 11:35 PM
Chris,

Though I understand the difference between strength speed and speed strength, Wouldn't you say they are directly related? What I mean to ask is- Does speed strength development directly effect strength speed? In my experience the answer is yes, I just don't know why. Please discuss..

All strengths have some relation, but the degree of correlation varies. Speed strength builds the kind of explosive power one uses to jump, throw a ball, throw a punch etc. That is true speed strength work. It involved very small loads and has essentially zero carryover to absolute strength (although absolute strength, to a degree, can effect it). Strength speed involves moving heavier loads more quickly. It has a significant effect on absolute strength expression.

Does that make sense?

chris mason
02-12-2013, 11:39 PM
Naites said:

"So many people don't know how to do speed benching. On an above post one guy said 50% and then bands on top of that (25% more).

That is totally wrong. Yeah you can move that with decent speed but NOT real speed."

You were wrong because you were ignorant of the context. As stated, the percentages are based on one's raw bench, not shirted.

You jumped on a statement I made because your were ignorant to the facts. That is pretty much par for the course in this world, so you are not unique to that end.

I agree with you that many, many people use too great of a load for proper speed work. That is a very common error.

GazzyG
02-13-2013, 05:17 AM
Regardless of the mud-slinging going on in here, this thread has inspired me to get some bands so I can crack on with adding some accomodating resistance to my speed-work. Mini and light bands all arrived this morning :)

naites
02-13-2013, 09:04 AM
BTW, there are many articles of Louie saying it's based off the max floor press. I know people have read them. I am not making this up.

Even based off peoples best raw full range most people are way too high in bar weight. So that doesn't change my point.

Enough arguing over pretty much the same points... I think we can all agree on like you said. The percents are all guide lines and a lifter needs to base it all off speed. I just see way too many lifters not understand this and they go too heavy. Almost like they think this, "Oh, so and so uses 225 for speed weight and comp benches 700 lbs. So if I use that same weight I will also." Not realizing he is not moving the bar nearly as fast as the real 700 lb bencher.

The wrong implementation of speed benching is why I think a lot of guys drop it for other stuff. If they are going to use a weight too heavy for speed for ego than they are better off dropping speed and just doing 5x5 or some kind of rep method they prefer.

Sorry guys for coming off the way I did. I am a big believer in speed benching and the conjugate methods. I guess after so many years of seeing people do it wrong and not understand followed by them dropping Westside that I get frustrated. If they would only give it a real chance by doing it somewha correctly.

Justin Randal
02-13-2013, 01:46 PM
All strengths have some relation, but the degree of correlation varies. Speed strength builds the kind of explosive power one uses to jump, throw a ball, throw a punch etc. That is true speed strength work. It involved very small loads and has essentially zero carryover to absolute strength (although absolute strength, to a degree, can effect it). Strength speed involves moving heavier loads more quickly. It has a significant effect on absolute strength expression.

Does that make sense?

Ah I get it now. LOL Thank you..

Justin Randal
02-13-2013, 01:51 PM
Even though they are related, you still need to train both of them to get the combined effect.

I believe it was in Supertraining (the book, not the gym) where they pointed out that in the absence of any dynamic work, as the body gets stronger and stronger it will also perform slower. So that's where the dynamic work really comes into effect.

How do you all vary your DE work? In my experience DE work needs to be varied all the time to keep you moving forward.

In the beginning I ran 3 week waves for squats and bench and only pulled for speed every 4th week (Between squat waves). Now I typically incorporate speed work every other week and just keep it different each time. On the off weeks I do more BB/hypertrophy work (always trying to get bigger).

Jonathan E
02-13-2013, 07:11 PM
In the beginning I ran 3 week waves for squats and bench and only pulled for speed every 4th week (Between squat waves). Now I typically incorporate speed work every other week and just keep it different each time. On the off weeks I do more BB/hypertrophy work (always trying to get bigger).

Do you combine squat and dead on the same day now?

In Louis' book I've read, he likes to place them on the same day, but i'm sure that can be adjusted.

SEOINAGE
02-13-2013, 09:08 PM
You do know you can still do speed bench and also your other work as well. For example, you can do speed 9 sets of 3 (only takes like 10 mins!). Then you can do your 5x5 sets since you feel that helps you.

When I hear people say they hate this or that it's almost as if they think we do speed/max effort lift then leave the gym and are done. hehe

Some guys do speed sets followed by 5x5 on an assistance press or 3 sets of 6 on a heavy assistance press or some just do lighter high rep stuff like 3/5 sets of 10+ reps on something like extensions.

Why not get the best of all worlds?

I understand they do a lot more work, and maybe i should give it a shot and see if that is better. Speed bench just always felt like it was tearing me up in the past. but maybe it's time to bring it back into my routine on a regular basis if i can do it right.

chris mason
02-13-2013, 11:25 PM
I understand they do a lot more work, and maybe i should give it a shot and see if that is better. Speed bench just always felt like it was tearing me up in the past. but maybe it's time to bring it back into my routine on a regular basis if i can do it right.

As stated, if you feel like it tore you up you likely were using poor form and or too high of a load. Speed benching should not tear you up at all.

RhodeHouse
02-14-2013, 09:11 AM
BTW, there are many articles of Louie saying it's based off the max floor press. I know people have read them. I am not making this up.

Even based off peoples best raw full range most people are way too high in bar weight. So that doesn't change my point.

Enough arguing over pretty much the same points... I think we can all agree on like you said. The percents are all guide lines and a lifter needs to base it all off speed. I just see way too many lifters not understand this and they go too heavy. Almost like they think this, "Oh, so and so uses 225 for speed weight and comp benches 700 lbs. So if I use that same weight I will also." Not realizing he is not moving the bar nearly as fast as the real 700 lb bencher.

The wrong implementation of speed benching is why I think a lot of guys drop it for other stuff. If they are going to use a weight too heavy for speed for ego than they are better off dropping speed and just doing 5x5 or some kind of rep method they prefer.

Sorry guys for coming off the way I did. I am a big believer in speed benching and the conjugate methods. I guess after so many years of seeing people do it wrong and not understand followed by them dropping Westside that I get frustrated. If they would only give it a real chance by doing it somewha correctly.

I've read every article Louie has written. HE HAS NEVER SAID USE THE FLOOR PRESS to base your DE numbers off of. NEVER! Then to argue with a guy that train with Louie?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Too many people don't understand the very simple nature of Westside to begin with. Let alone how simple it is to set up a DE cycle.

I'm not a huge believer in DE work unless you're ridiculously slow. That being said, I think DE work shold be done a little heavier if you're a raw bencher. As for shirt work, I can't comment because I don't use that cheater gear. HAHAHAHA!

ScottYard
02-14-2013, 09:45 AM
[QUOTE=chris mason;2612843]You most certainly outbench me, then again, I would guess I can pull more than you. Have we compared dicks sufficiently now?

Nice. That had me choking on my coffee.

BloodandThunder
02-14-2013, 10:44 AM
I've read every article Louie has written. HE HAS NEVER SAID USE THE FLOOR PRESS to base your DE numbers off of. NEVER! Then to argue with a guy that train with Louie?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Too many people don't understand the very simple nature of Westside to begin with. Let alone how simple it is to set up a DE cycle.

I'm not a huge believer in DE work unless you're ridiculously slow. That being said, I think DE work shold be done a little heavier if you're a raw bencher. As for shirt work, I can't comment because I don't use that cheater gear. HAHAHAHA!

Each of these are old articles - if you read through the Book of Methods or the Powerlifting USA arcticles, he address what to use for DE % - sometimes off a 1RM, off a geared 1RM, off a floor press. I agree with your points though (congrats you are awarded several internet points!)

http://www.westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/06PDF/06Aug_westsidestop_benchers.pdf

"After speed bench, using about 40% of a 1-rep max on the floor press,"

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/dynamic-method/ (http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/dynamic-method/)
"A 500-pound raw floor presser would use 200 pounds and two sets of 5/8-inch chain for the dynamic method. For 10 sets of 3 reps with bands or chains, the total volume without the accommodating resistance would be 6000 pounds. "

http://www.westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/05PDF/speed_work.pdf
"Speed Bench with Bands. These should be done for 8 or 9 sets of 3 reps. Use 45% of your 1-rep max on floor press." - this is with accomodating resistance and not straight weight DE

Travis Bell
02-14-2013, 11:17 AM
He does not recommend using a geared max in any of those articles.

Again, I'm going to reiterate the floor press stuff is from waaaay on back.

If there is some one lineter in the hundreds of articles that he wrote about a geared max, it was long before guys were getting 3 and 400lbs out of their shirts.

If you really want to understand what Louie recommends, read his most recent stuff. Powerlifting as a whole is constantly changing and so does Louies approach on how to best get stronger.

Is anyone's floor press really that different than their full range bench anyways? Mine is usually within 25lbs give or take of my full range bench.

RhodeHouse
02-14-2013, 01:25 PM
Each of these are old articles - if you read through the Book of Methods or the Powerlifting USA arcticles, he address what to use for DE % - sometimes off a 1RM, off a geared 1RM, off a floor press. I agree with your points though (congrats you are awarded several internet points!)

http://www.westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/06PDF/06Aug_westsidestop_benchers.pdf

"After speed bench, using about 40% of a 1-rep max on the floor press,"

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/dynamic-method/ (http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/dynamic-method/)
"A 500-pound raw floor presser would use 200 pounds and two sets of 5/8-inch chain for the dynamic method. For 10 sets of 3 reps with bands or chains, the total volume without the accommodating resistance would be 6000 pounds. "

http://www.westside-barbell.com/westside-articles/PDF.Files/05PDF/speed_work.pdf
"Speed Bench with Bands. These should be done for 8 or 9 sets of 3 reps. Use 45% of your 1-rep max on floor press." - this is with accomodating resistance and not straight weight DE

I stand corrected. Nonetheless, I still believe a rawe bencher should use a slightly higher percentage. Again, I would listen to Travis, as he trains with Louie.

Brian Hopper
02-14-2013, 01:43 PM
What is the recommended percentages for raw lifters? 65-75%?

RFabsik
02-14-2013, 02:38 PM
About 1.5 years ago when I went to Westside for a CrossFit Powerlifting seminar he was clear to use around 55% of your raw bench for DE work.

When we asked about people who don't use gear, he said nothing really changes for the bench. But, for squats you might try higher percentages.

I later emailed him about what DE percentages raw squatters should use and he said:

"If you only squat off of a box, the weights are 75-85% in three week waves. If you have a contest raw squat, then train 50-60% of that contest squat on a box.

The 50-60% on a box, is calculated off of a gear contest record squat. If you don't compete, and you only squat off of a box, then you train at 75-85%.

Good luck"

To me for the squat this means, use either 75-85% of your 1RM Box squat or 50-60% of your raw contest squat.

For bench it means always calculate via raw numbers.

I have to say it is great to have easy access to Louie, Travis, Chris and all you other powerlifting experts.

xolix
02-14-2013, 03:30 PM
http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.com/articles/training-articles/12052-learn-to-grind

i used de-bench on benchday 2 , after reading this article i changed it to this :

i train 2 days a week bench , day 1 : max effort working up with triples to a 3rm and lockoutwork for 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps , lats, biceps , rear delts

on day 2 : bench working up to a 4-6 rm , shoulders,db work, lats, light triceps . i do it 2 months now and i could increase my 3rm on nearly every me-movement . i lift raw , roidfree.

i was afraid of doing too much and ... till now , all things went very well. no overtraining . important is to not missing a weight .
i am in offseasonmodus now , when i train for a meet , i change the max effort work to 1 rm .

naites
02-14-2013, 03:45 PM
Each of these are old articles - if you read through the Book of Methods or the Powerlifting USA arcticles, he address what to use for DE % - sometimes off a 1RM, off a geared 1RM, off a floor press. I agree with your points though (congrats you are awarded several internet points!)


Damn! Atleast one person does not just argue with me saying I am wrong about everything. I was not just making everything up. Everything I have said was basically what I have heard over the years. I know some info is very old out there. But that is where lots of guys get confused. I myself pretty much use the same exact weights as for example Travis. 225'ish with bands or chains for speed. 771 single ply max. 805 multiply max. High 500's raw. But thanks "Blood" for the internet points I was low ;)

I think we can all see the answers here. Nobody is correct on the percents! They are guide lines! Use them and adjust accordingly. Don't up your ego and go heavier. When in doubt go lighter.

Like I said earlier. In my opinion I think most lifters who drop speed work were using too much weight. Maybe we need some new videos on Youtube from Westside showing these lifters what speed should look like ;) I would, but it would probably be completely wrong ;) haha

Jonathan E
02-14-2013, 04:24 PM
Haha we should get Louie himself in here to add to some of the discussion. A lot of good shit is being said here.

SEOINAGE
02-14-2013, 04:34 PM
As stated, if you feel like it tore you up you likely were using poor form and or too high of a load. Speed benching should not tear you up at all.

Yep you are right. The last couple times I have done it recently they felt ok, even with loads higher than I have ever used in the past, stronger now of course so can't compare it. The only discomfort I felt was simply the discomfort in my biceps and such from heavy squats a couple days before. But I think my form is significantly better than a few years ago too. I have an upper body day in my regular training schedule where I don't bench, probably just put speed bench in there for a while.

Ripe1
02-16-2013, 04:12 AM
I had this same conversation with a 2x World champion Oly lifter a week ago. Basically I said the same as Rhodes, if you're fast already why do it. Other than maintenance there's no need for it. So on deload weeks one could do their speed work. The other thing I've been thinking about, if at meets you're going for your 1RM why would you do sets on your speed days?

BloodandThunder
02-16-2013, 06:19 AM
I had this same conversation with a 2x World champion Oly lifter a week ago. Basically I said the same as Rhodes, if you're fast already why do it. Other than maintenance there's no need for it. So on deload weeks one could do their speed work. The other thing I've been thinking about, if at meets you're going for your 1RM why would you do sets on your speed days?

It takes a certain frequency and training volume to elicit a certain trait. If a lifter lacks the strength speed to move a heavier load by keeping the arms tucked in the bench through the area where the bar speed slows down, repeated sets with an applicable load moved as quickly as possible with good technique will help develop this ability. Speed work done with no attention to technique and "going through the motions" rarely leads to PRs. Watch videos of WS lifters doing DE box squats - same approach, intensity, and focus as any other day.

If you were a coach and perscribed speed work for a majority of your lifters, I'd bet 100% of the time that a group who were focused on technique and applying max force will be hitting more PRs than the group who's just doing 8 x 3 and getting through it ("Light Day").

Take a 8 - 10 x 3 set vs. doing the same weight for 6-10 reps for the same volume. Now you won't be applying the same force throughout that long set, but here the intended goal is different (hypertrophy, strength endurance, etc.). Lifters' form break down during those long sets whereas speed sets with appropriate rest times will allow you to focus purely on the reason for the lagging bench. On that longer set, the mindshift typically goes toward just finishing the set, not actively working the area you're trying to fix.

Speed work is a tool on lifter's belt, just as maximal lifting with variants, bodybuilding assistance, heavy compound supplements, sub-maximal work, repeated effort work, and high rep recovery work are. Many great powerlifters didn't do specific speed work but just applied excellent CAT to all their sets. Just as some powerlifters stick with volume in the 70-85% zone as opposed to linear periodization or the old 8's, 5's, 3's, and 2's.