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Paulo_Santos
02-24-2013, 02:38 PM
I have no plans on switching up what I'm doing, but I read the book last night and it is obviously similar to Westside. I'm not really seeing the reasoning for some of the things he's doing, like the separate RE day and not really going for PR's on ME Days. I know he probably has forgotten more about powerlifting than I will ever know, but I don't see how this is better than Westside.

Any thoughts?

larsen540
02-24-2013, 02:58 PM
Thought is prob just stick with west side. It is proven. I am not a fan of the cube.

gaz90
02-24-2013, 04:00 PM
i havent read the book, but from what i know about the cube from articles etc. seems like the cube method might allow for better recovery......

robertjr93
02-24-2013, 05:50 PM
Dont like the cube dont do it that simple. Everything is different. What works for some wont work for all.

Paulo_Santos
02-24-2013, 06:06 PM
Dont like the cube dont do it that simple. Everything is different. What works for some wont work for all.

I get that. I already stated that I have no plans to change what I'm doing. I read the book and I don't understand the changes he's made and was wondering if there was a reason or if someone can help me understand it. I actually like to learn, so if there is a good reason as to why he changed some things, I'm willing to learn why.

Alex.V
02-24-2013, 06:49 PM
I think it might be difficult to get an unbiased opinion on it- there's been a lot of heated back and forth. Bottom line is it's another concurrent periodization scheme, but from what I see it relies more on rotating intensity (incorporation of more singles, doubles, etc.) than rotating lifts (substitution of similar movements for the comp lifts, which I get the sense the Cube founders find less useful) to avoid burnout. There's certainly more structure to the individual workouts, and I certainly wouldn't say they're low volume, but overall there IS a bit more recovery.

Personally, I wouldn't use it, but that's because I couldn't fit it into my particular sort of training (with the heavy endurance component) without needing to make the entire structure obscenely complicated.

I'd love to see Brandon break down the rationale for the particular changes, but I think given the overall tone of some of the back and forth (the initiators of which should probably not be named), I could see that going south relatively quickly. lol.

A.Schnupp
02-25-2013, 12:48 AM
Im currently running it and like it alot, I feel it does allow for better recovery Some things I dont see a purpose for such as 50 rep squats but I just replace them no big deal!

J L S
02-25-2013, 08:26 AM
There is no definitive method or training ideology that is the 'best'. There are plenty of ways to get strong and the cube is just another one of them combining basic principles of lifting in an effective way that produces results.

I have ran it personally (and still am) and really liked it for squat and deadlift. I was not however a fan of the bench methods as I think at my level of training/strength I can get away with benching heavier/ or with maximal effort a hell of a lot more often as I'm no where near as strong compared to other lifts.

The extra RE day which I think you are referring to is the 'bodybuilding' type day I imagine and thats in there to adress the most common weaknesses most powerlifters of this day and age forget with staple moves like Overhead presses, direct bicep training and the smaller muscle groups like calves etc just to provide balance to your training and physique, which will make you stronger in the long run and prevent injuries and muscular imbalances. Theres also room to focus on your 'weaker' bodyparts to bring up your lifts. Its almost like an 'extra workout'

The ME day theory of not going for PR's is because a cube cycle is set up to bring the PR's come meet day. You build upto them over a 8/9 week period and are supposedly 'peaked' to hit them when it matters. The stimulus still comes from lifting heavy weights on that 'ME' day and volume.

I am not Brandon Lilly or a bradon lilly/ cube nutswinger though and have been through my fair share of training ideologies so take what I have said with a pinch of salt, theres a facebook group for cube members and I'm sure if you post in there he would be more than happy to enlighten you further.

RhodeHouse
02-25-2013, 08:52 AM
I love the ideas behind it. It's a different way to address the 3 methods of developing strength. i would agree it probably allows for better recovery, but that's the buzz word of the industry, lately.

I like that each workout has a very specific focus and each week it changes. I haven'tread the book, but it's pretty simple to understand the basics of the program.

I will probably give it a shot once I get myself healed up and back to unrestricted training.

chris mason
02-25-2013, 09:30 AM
I have no comment other than to say Westside, properly performed, is the best program I have ever encountered for strength.

joey54
02-25-2013, 10:32 AM
I read the book. Seems to be working for people.

Paulo_Santos
02-25-2013, 05:02 PM
The extra RE day which I think you are referring to is the 'bodybuilding' type day I imagine and thats in there to adress the most common weaknesses most powerlifters of this day and age forget with staple moves like Overhead presses, direct bicep training and the smaller muscle groups like calves etc just to provide balance to your training and physique, which will make you stronger in the long run and prevent injuries and muscular imbalances. Theres also room to focus on your 'weaker' bodyparts to bring up your lifts. Its almost like an 'extra workout'

Thanks for the explanation. I definitely like the part about the extra workouts.

The version of Westside that I was taught has much more volume than most of the other Westside templates that I've seen. I generally do 5-6 exercises after my main lifts and I've had no problem with recovery and I'm getting stronger every week still. Every week, I rotate between Bench and Shoulder Press exercises and I rotate speed bench and speed press every week, along with rotating speed squats and speed pulls.

larsen540
02-25-2013, 09:07 PM
I have no comment other than to say Westside, properly performed, is the best program I have ever encountered for strength.

Wthout a doubt Chris

larsen540
02-25-2013, 09:08 PM
Simple answer DONT WASTE YOUR TIME.

covpride
02-26-2013, 07:42 AM
I'm running it, and like it a lot so far. Seems to be working well for me and I enjoy it. I'll be testing maxes next week, then run another cycle for a meet in May.

dmurphy
02-26-2013, 07:48 AM
My training partners and I are just finishing up the first cycle of the cube. Most of us are actually having a harder time recovering. Normally we run westside and recovery has never really been a problem. My squat has gone up however. Cant say the same for the bench and dead. I think we will be going back to westside after our meet in march

Travis Bell
02-26-2013, 10:53 AM
It certainly has a lot of principles that were taken from Westside. That's about all I'm gonna say on that correlation lol.

The most common problem I run into guys who try and do a Westside template is that they don't do nearly enough volume. So for this stuff that is written up in the Cube, the volume is right there for you.

I don't agree with a lot of the philosophies behind the training but I'm not to get into that here.

In short this is a lot like what happened when 531 originally came out. Anything that forces you to work hard will in the end make you stronger to a degree. I just don't think it's the most efficient in making you strong.

To each their own though. Do whatever keeps training interesting for you.

RhodeHouse
02-26-2013, 12:32 PM
My training partners and I are just finishing up the first cycle of the cube. Most of us are actually having a harder time recovering. Normally we run westside and recovery has never really been a problem. My squat has gone up however. Cant say the same for the bench and dead. I think we will be going back to westside after our meet in march

So what's your definition of not recovering? Being sore and tired isn't a sign that you're not recovering. How long is a cube Cycle? 4 weeks? 8 weeks? I honestly don't know. Just because your lifts don't go up immediately doesn't mean it's not working. I'm curious.

RhodeHouse
02-26-2013, 12:37 PM
It certainly has a lot of principles that were taken from Westside. That's about all I'm gonna say on that correlation lol.

The most common problem I run into guys who try and do a Westside template is that they don't do nearly enough volume. So for this stuff that is written up in the Cube, the volume is right there for you.

I don't agree with a lot of the philosophies behind the training but I'm not to get into that here.

In short this is a lot like what happened when 531 originally came out. Anything that forces you to work hard will in the end make you stronger to a degree. I just don't think it's the most efficient in making you strong.

To each their own though. Do whatever keeps training interesting for you.

Westside addresses Dynamic Effort, Maximal Effort and Repeated Effort, correct? They are addressed all in the same week for each lift. Correct?

The Cube addresses Dynamic Effort, Maximal Effort and Repeated Effort, correct? These are addressed for each lift over the span of 3 weeks, if I'm correct.

So both programs address the 3 methods of strength developement. Correct?

BloodandThunder
02-26-2013, 03:04 PM
Guys, the correct answer is to Cube your 5/3/1 weeks while Sheikoing your ME Upper Days and Smoloving your DE Lower days.

I sincerely hope someone tries this one day

J L S
02-26-2013, 03:12 PM
Guys, the correct answer is to Cube your 5/3/1 weeks while Sheikoing your ME Upper Days and Smoloving your DE Lower days.

I sincerely hope someone tries this one day

If you supply me with enough test and growth hormone to create a genetically modified super soldier I'm more than happy to give this a try! 500LB+ on my total here we come.

Travis Bell
02-27-2013, 04:00 AM
Westside addresses Dynamic Effort, Maximal Effort and Repeated Effort, correct? They are addressed all in the same week for each lift. Correct?

The Cube addresses Dynamic Effort, Maximal Effort and Repeated Effort, correct? These are addressed for each lift over the span of 3 weeks, if I'm correct.

So both programs address the 3 methods of strength developement. Correct?

cube doesn't use dynamic effort, but other than that yes you are correct. That was my point haha.

RhodeHouse
02-27-2013, 08:10 AM
cube doesn't use dynamic effort, but other than that yes you are correct. That was my point haha.

Oh, I was under the impression Cube did use DE work. My misunderstanding. i haven't read the book. Just read bits and pieces.

RFabsik
02-27-2013, 08:23 AM
He rotates a heavy day, an exlposive day and a repetition day.

Heavy day is using 5's or less.

Rep days go from as low as a easy double to as high as a set of 8.

Explosive day is pretty similar to dynamic effort. He's not a fan of bands/chains all of the time and prefers to use higher percentages without accomodating resistance. I think 60-70% something like 5-8 sets for doubles or triples. So it is not the standard Westside Dynamic Day, but it isn't that far off.

larsen540
02-27-2013, 08:25 AM
It isnt the method that make people stronger. In fact I would go out on a limb here and say that most people that start a Jenny Craig diet lose 5lbs in the first week. Its not because it is the diet. It is because they are trying. I am not sure I would use the cube as a coaster for my beer. Dont waste your time. You dont take your vehicle in the shop if it is running fine right?????? West side works just fine.

Brian Hopper
02-27-2013, 11:16 AM
I haven't tried it, so I can't comment on if it works or not. I did buy the book, and the only part of the program I really didn't understand was the reps day. He goes from 8 reps, to 6 reps down to 2 reps. When I hear reps, I'm thinking 10+. Other then that, the program doesn't look that bad. It's a good book with some good information. Also, from watching his videos, his training looks a little different from what his book is saying.

KJDANEXT0
02-27-2013, 02:20 PM
Could someone tell me what the advantage is of the repetition day? Heavy sets of 2s and 5s don't seem far removed from maximal effort. Would straight sets be used on the reps day whereas ramping is used on ME?

P.S I agree with Sheikoing your 5/3/1 while smoloving your starting strength on ME days.

J L S
02-27-2013, 03:47 PM
the way I interpreted it was the way the waves work, the final 'rep day' of your 8/9 week cycle is set at 2 reps because it should be around your openor for the meet. The 9 week cycle in the book is designed for a meet, and setup for you to hit PR's at the end (or at the meet) where it really counts. It basically goes

3 week wave number;
1 - 8 reps @ 70%
2- 6 reps @ 80%
3- 2 reps @ 85%

it is not set in stone though and if you feel good you can work past the rep scheme recommended, as long as you are beating the reps, or even repeat the set again. Its like every training ideology, its merely a guide.

Alex.V
02-27-2013, 09:10 PM
It isnt the method that make people stronger. (snip). It is because they are trying. .

This.

In fact, I'm pasting it again.


It isnt the method that make people stronger. (snip). It is because they are trying. .

RhodeHouse
02-28-2013, 06:19 AM
It isnt the method that make people stronger. In fact I would go out on a limb here and say that most people that start a Jenny Craig diet lose 5lbs in the first week. Its not because it is the diet. It is because they are trying. I am not sure I would use the cube as a coaster for my beer. Dont waste your time. You dont take your vehicle in the shop if it is running fine right?????? West side works just fine.

I can make an argument that Westside doesn't make sense as "the best" strength program out there. Is it good? Obviously. But, it lacks some things that SHOULD be basic, common sense. But, proponents of their favorite training methodology can justify anything.

Westside wasn't 'running fine" for me. I've gotten much stronger without Westside. Any program is the best if you think it is. Belief in the system is a huge part if the success.

Paulo_Santos
02-28-2013, 09:14 AM
I can make an argument that Westside doesn't make sense as "the best" strength program out there. Is it good? Obviously. But, it lacks some things that SHOULD be basic, common sense. But, proponents of their favorite training methodology can justify anything.

Westside wasn't 'running fine" for me. I've gotten much stronger without Westside. Any program is the best if you think it is. Belief in the system is a huge part if the success.

Maybe something to consider, when I first started doing Westside, I stalled out very quickly. Then when I was actually taught how to properly do it, I started seeing gains and my lifts are still going up. I don't find it hard to follow at all if someone takes a second to explain it and give you a simple template to follow.

chris mason
02-28-2013, 10:25 AM
I can make an argument that Westside doesn't make sense as "the best" strength program out there. Is it good? Obviously. But, it lacks some things that SHOULD be basic, common sense. But, proponents of their favorite training methodology can justify anything.

Westside wasn't 'running fine" for me. I've gotten much stronger without Westside. Any program is the best if you think it is. Belief in the system is a huge part if the success.

What does it lack in your opinion?

joey54
02-28-2013, 10:33 AM
So with the program's creator, Brandon Lilly, who trained at Westside and has posted here from time to time; it is documented he feels he made his best progress with his Cube Method. Do people feel he may not have been working as hard as he could before doing this and that is the primary reason for his success with the Cube, along with the other individuals claiming their best gains? It seemed like Lilly had access to a "proper" Westside template. Just wondering what the opinions here are.

J L S
02-28-2013, 10:46 AM
The only thing that ever come to mind with me questioning the cube and it success rates with all these lifters is brandon has pretty much inspired the raw crowd to pipe up again.

People are taking their gear off and training on a solid template for 9 weeks, putting their mind to it and getting good results. You hear of people putting x amount on each lift and my initial thoughts until I gave it a try were is this all stemming from hiding behind the gear for too long and finally actually doing an exercise repeatedly (ie staight weight squats, benches and deadlifts) and training muscle groups that get neglected or under worked I suppose you could say when wearing gear.

Now that was not an open invitation to start a gear bashing or raw zealot brigade arguement as strong is strong, however it was my initial thoughts, because the back story behind the cube does lie a lot with doing the basics, and doing them well. I've read a lot about when brandon moved to lexen and chuck v would constantly be barking at him, that his hips were weak. The result, he stayed away from the gear, worked his hips hard and often and sunk every rep to proper depth and beyond. The result? A raw squat PR. Its not rocket science.

Pretty sure corey hayes posts on here too or used to keep a log. I would be interested to hear some of his input because it seems the whole of the berea barbell crowd have adopted the raw lifting now too.

chris mason
02-28-2013, 10:57 AM
So with the program's creator, Brandon Lilly, who trained at Westside and has posted here from time to time; it is documented he feels he made his best progress with his Cube Method. Do people feel he may not have been working as hard as he could before doing this and that is the primary reason for his success with the Cube, along with the other individuals claiming their best gains? It seemed like Lilly had access to a "proper" Westside template. Just wondering what the opinions here are.

Training at Westside (the actual gym) requires the right work ethic and serious mental fortitude. It is a brutal place to train. Some thrive and some don't.

larsen540
02-28-2013, 11:31 AM
I can make an argument that Westside doesn't make sense as "the best" strength program out there. Is it good? Obviously. But, it lacks some things that SHOULD be basic, common sense. But, proponents of their favorite training methodology can justify anything.

Westside wasn't 'running fine" for me. I've gotten much stronger without Westside. Any program is the best if you think it is. Belief in the system is a huge part if the success.

I would love to hear your argument of why westside doesnt make sense as the best program. What is it lacking? What common sense is it lacking? Why do you think Westside didnt run well for you? And I agree if you believe in a program it will be the best or you will have the most success. My opinion is the cube isnt worth giving your money to someone for....

larsen540
02-28-2013, 11:34 AM
So with the program's creator, Brandon Lilly, who trained at Westside and has posted here from time to time; it is documented he feels he made his best progress with his Cube Method. Do people feel he may not have been working as hard as he could before doing this and that is the primary reason for his success with the Cube, along with the other individuals claiming their best gains? It seemed like Lilly had access to a "proper" Westside template. Just wondering what the opinions here are.

Of course Brandon is going to say he had his best progress with the cube method he is trying to sell it to people. Of course. Just like if he sold wrist wraps they would be the best out there and he is the strongest with them. You have to be able to look past what he or the people he trains with and how they praise the cube method and really look at it from that perspective.

larsen540
02-28-2013, 11:35 AM
Maybe something to consider, when I first started doing Westside, I stalled out very quickly. Then when I was actually taught how to properly do it, I started seeing gains and my lifts are still going up. I don't find it hard to follow at all if someone takes a second to explain it and give you a simple template to follow.

Sure that makes sense somthings get over looked or do not make sense to you and once explained seems like you made decent progress

Stumprrp
02-28-2013, 02:44 PM
Rhodes i can answer the issue that dmurphy (training partner) addressed with the recovery. I know for myself personally all of the pause squatting and high rep oly squats hit alot of muscles that i havent hit in a while, therefore the pain and soreness was so intense that i could not deadlift 2 days later. Obviously i would adapt to this over time and i need to not be a lazy fuck and do streching/rehab, but i dont think those types of exercises really cut it for myself. I will say the CG benching and overhead work really jump started my press.

PS - are you guys upset that eric got the gig at Alabama @ birmingham? i'm sure he will be missed!

chris mason
02-28-2013, 07:36 PM
Rhodes i can answer the issue that dmurphy (training partner) addressed with the recovery. I know for myself personally all of the pause squatting and high rep oly squats hit alot of muscles that i havent hit in a while, therefore the pain and soreness was so intense that i could not deadlift 2 days later. Obviously i would adapt to this over time and i need to not be a lazy fuck and do streching/rehab, but i dont think those types of exercises really cut it for myself. I will say the CG benching and overhead work really jump started my press.

PS - are you guys upset that eric got the gig at Alabama @ birmingham? i'm sure he will be missed!

Not sure what you are talking about?

Stumprrp
02-28-2013, 08:02 PM
Chris I'm just answering the question Rhodes had to dmurphey about the recovery issue on page 1 I think

chris mason
02-28-2013, 09:50 PM
Chris I'm just answering the question Rhodes had to dmurphey about the recovery issue on page 1 I think

I meant the PS. No worries.

RhodeHouse
03-01-2013, 06:05 AM
Maybe something to consider, when I first started doing Westside, I stalled out very quickly. Then when I was actually taught how to properly do it, I started seeing gains and my lifts are still going up. I don't find it hard to follow at all if someone takes a second to explain it and give you a simple template to follow.

i understand Westide's methods just fine. Plus, I ahve access to a number of guys who have trained or train there, now. It's not for lack of klnowledge on the methods or an inability to understand the template. It's very easy, actually.

RhodeHouse
03-01-2013, 08:11 AM
Chris and Adrian,

I will do my best to explain my stance. First, I will say that obviously, Westside is a good program. The basic philosophy makes sense and is solid. But, there are a few things that just don't make sense to me (common sense).

Special Exercises/Changing Exercises Every Week
This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. In order to get good at something, you have to practice it. Peyton Manning throws thousands of fade routes (etc) to get good at throwing fade routes. He doesn't hand the ball off to get good at throwing the fade route (this should be common sense).

So, if you lift in gear (squat suit, bench shirt, deadlift suit) you should practice in it every week. Simple as that. My cycle would be 3 out of 4 weeks or 2 out of 3 weeks in the gear practicing the competition lift. Not partials, not board presses, not box squats... Practice how you play.

Changing from Floor Presses, to Board Presses to Reverse Band Presses etc...and doing this raw doesn't make any sense to me. I can see the Special Exercises as Supplemental work to build a weakness.

For instance, a Bench workout might look like this for a guy with a bad lockout.

1. Shirt Work
2. Shirt Work against bands
3. Raw Bench against chains
4. Rest of workout (shoulders, back, triceps, etc...)

My other issue with the constant changing of exericses is that you never really correct a weakness (to me the whole point of using Special Exercises). For instance, if I fall forward in the Squat and I choose SSB Squats to help fix this issue, one week of SSB Squatting WILL NOT fix my problem. Now, 4-8 weeks of it will probably make a difference.

My Squat workout would probably look like this.

1. Squat in suit
2. SSB Squats
3. Rest of workout

I don't like the box squat as a main/DE movement. Again, it makes no sense. You don't box squat in competition. i can see it as a Supplemental/Accessory lift.

For someone who doesn't train at Westside or who doesn't have good training partners, how do they know how to choose exercises? they don't. they look at the list of grips, stances, pin heights and all that crap and get caught up in change for the sake of change. It's hard to figure out which exercises are actually worth a shit.

For me, these exercises build my lifts...

Squat - nothing works better than squatting.
Bench - Competition bench, Floor Press, Close-grip Bench
Deadlift - nothing works better than deadlifting.

Now, I use the SSB and I'll start incorporating Pause Squats into my next training cycle. But, Pause Squatting is still squatting with a straight bar.

I'm very confident in my Bench exercises. They have done wonders for me in my last 2 competitions. It works.

Deadlift is odd for me. With all my injury problems, I haven't really pulled much in the last 3-4 years. taht being said, before I tore my biceps, I was pulling once a week. I was getting stronger. No need for anything else.

Back to my original point. Practice how you play. There's no need for that much variety. The CNS just doesn't adapt that quickly. I know the "experts" say say it does, but it just doesn't. Change your reps and that's plenty of variety.

DE Work
I don't know if it's still done every 60 seconds. i'm sure it's not a strict clock. From all the videos I've seen it's just one guy after another. Still, the idea of DE work is to push the bar as hard as possible - with as much force as possible. Anybody that knows anything knows that you can't give maximal force if you're body isn't recovered from the previous set. This can't be argued. If you don't rest enough it turns into "conditioning" work. One of the biggest mistakes people make is turning speed work (lifting and especially athlete training/sprinting) into conditioning. You don't want to be out of breath as you're getting ready for your next set. You want to be recovered so your body can exert maximal force. Again, this can't be argued. if you do, you just don't know what you're talking about. Simple as that.

I would rest 2-3 minutes between DE sets so that I can actually exert maximal force against a submaximal weight. otherwise, it just turns into conditioning work. Conditioning work is not explosive. The point of DE work is to be explosive.

I can't and won't deny, and never have, that Westside hasn't produced some great lifters. Because of the reasons above, I just feel it's not the best program. It can be improved upon. Not training there, I may have listed reasons that Louie is or has already addressed.


As for why it doesn't work for me anymore, read above. And, I feel that DE work isn't important for me. I've very explosive. Even as tall as I am, I still have a tremendous amount of explosive power when I lift. It doesn't make sense for me to dedicate time to a skill that I'm already very good at. Instead, I "think DE" as I warm up with all of my sets. I always move the bar hard and fast, no matter the weight.

instead, I opt for more volume to build some muscle mass, especially since i'm down 40lbs since September. Gotta pack some meat back on. Not that I couldn't get plenty of hypertrohy volume in a Westside program. I just think triples and doubles are as important to building maximal strength as singles. Plus, the rep variety allows me to practice my cometition lift every single week without having to change because of eventual CNS fatigue.

When I did Westside I had Jim Wendler (who trained at Westside at the time) constantly helping me stay on top of what was being done. I certainly had a firm grasp on what I was doing. not to mention, the program is very simple anyway.

So, those are my thoughts.

joey54
03-01-2013, 09:03 AM
For the football analogy, teams don't play full games every practice. Usually it is broken down into separate sections focusing on specific areas of the game. Would that not be more like exercise rotation?

RhodeHouse
03-01-2013, 12:16 PM
For the football analogy, teams don't play full games every practice. Usually it is broken down into separate sections focusing on specific areas of the game. Would that not be more like exercise rotation?

They don't play full games, but they practice situations.

-Inside Run
-2 Minute Drill
- 7 on 7

Football is a MUCH more complicated system tha any kindof lifting. my point is, to get good at something yuo have to do it. To get good at running between the tackles, you practice running between the tackles, etc... To get good at benching, you bench. Your supplemental and accessory work (tackling/blocking drills etc...) works on specific skills within the game itself.

Paulo_Santos
03-01-2013, 04:19 PM
I thought the idea behind the box squats was to build up your squats while putting less stress on your knees. Same reason that as you are getting stronger, your Olympic lifts will continue to get better as long as you practice them with light weight.

I also thought that the reason that you rotated ME Exercises was because you would stall after a few weeks of maxing out on the same exercises.

The one thing I'm still not sure about is the speed stuff because I only lift and compete raw so I don't know if it would be better to replace them with some 5x10 for bulk.

J L S
03-01-2013, 05:17 PM
Everybody in here just seen the latest video from the cage?

Lilly pulling 755 like a speed rep no belt? Guess the cube doesn't work huh...

sorry. Couldn't resist.

larsen540
03-01-2013, 06:21 PM
Rhodes,

I apprecaite you explaining your thoughts. I wanted to weigh in on a couple of areas. I am going to be very blunt here I think the cube method is a bunch of shit. My personal opinion only and I should prob keep it to myself. But I opened my mouth on this fourm. I personally couldnt care less about what Brandon pulls in the cage or anything that comes out of his mouth. With that being said. Rhodes, I think that when you incorporate any program the common sense part to me is that some of it you can not follow to a T. No one can map out a specfic game plan for you and you follow it to a T and it always work. I explained this recently to a guy I train. I train weekly raw at 90 percent. Now it may be 90 percent of my 5 rep bench 10 rep bench or 20 or 3. You get the point. I dont always just bench. In order to get stronger you cant just bench you have to build a foundation in many different lifts. ( Just my opinion) I see too many people train for just one rep max weekly and it isnt effective. Now dont get me wrong I believe you need to do a pressing movement but it doesnt have to be just straight benching.

Benching is no where near as complicated as Payton Manning throwing a fade pass on 4th down in double coverage. Shirted work is touch more complicated but not really. People let it get complicated because they get a bench shirt that is 2x to small and they are afraid of the weight and cant get it to touch.

As far as speed work is concerned. It is not a form of conditioning. For instance I typically stay around 50 to 60 percent max on DE days. I change my grip placement close, Med, wide for 3 reps I try to get 60 to 90 sec of rest between sets. Now I dont time it it is a guess. However, I am not breathing heavy nor rearly do I even sweat. This is a way for me to work on speed. For me personally I have a problem with pressing only as hard as how heavy the weight is if that makes any sense. I typically dont push as hard as I need to and speed days help me with that. That is where you are getting the repition in and doing rep after rep working on fundamentals. I know that you are good with exposivness but it is still something to train in my mind. Maybe not weekly if you are staying consistant.

Bottom line is I think anyone can find a program out there and tweek it a little and make it work for them. I am sure it also plays a part in who your buddies are and who you train with that makes that choice. All the people I train look up to what I am doing and do what I do and they see results. If you were buddies with Wendler and trained with him I am sure you are doing the 5-3-1 if you were buddies with Brandon god help you but than you prob would do the cube. Anyway just my thoughts.

RhodeHouse
03-01-2013, 07:09 PM
Adrian,

My point with the Manning reference is that I believe in getting good at something by doing it. And, I do agree people make it more complicated than it is. Which is why I bench to get better at benching. I do all the necessary back, shoulder etc... work as well.

As for DE work - I know it's not supposed to be conditioning. Just like jumping or sprinting, you need to rest fully in order to apply maximal force to the ground, or in this case, the barbell. If you're not rested the work will turn into conditioning work whether you want it to or not. My thoughts on this are, I wouldn't rest 90 seconds to press 85%+ with maximal force. Why would I try to exert maximal force without proper rest?

My other huge issue with speed work and repetition is that it's only 50-60%. You can push that weight with terrible form and it's no issue. There's no cause for breakdown in form. It's just too easy. Practicing moving a light weight is not the same as moving heavy weight. Light weight will never cause your form to break down. Heavy weight will. This is the only way to learn how to strain against real weight, in my opinion.

i do agree that those who feel they need speed work or are just plain slow could benefit from doing it. i just think it's way to light.

I've always thought about lifting like football. It's all been done before. The best coaches take a little from here and there and it becomes their own. It's not new ideas, just a new way of putting it all together.

At the end of the day, if you believe in what you're doing and there's some semblance of "science" involved, you'll succeed.

RFabsik
03-01-2013, 09:11 PM
With DE work, using low weight seems to be a better fit. First, it is recommende 50-60% bar weight plus 25% accomodating resitance. So at the top you're hitting 75-95% at the top.

For people who aren't naturally explosive or come from a background of controlled/slow rep speeds, this helps teach them to keep pushing. I see a similar analogy in tennis or any ball sport. A lot of people touch the ball and then stop at that moment and can't generate pace. But, when you touch the ball that is the time to accelerate. For me, DE work has taught me to keep driving the bar even after my "sticking" point.

Yes, with heavy weight rep sets, you'll have to keep pushing hard but usally on the last few reps compared to the first couple reps.

Also, I've always thought of DE day as a way to generate as much force as possible with the lowest weight possible. Generate your 1RM force with 60%. And this might be time dependent. Being able to generate this force quickly can help you drive through heavy weights. But if you don't have this skill, the speed work will teach you.

Prior to some DE work, I used to train with the typical 2s concentric and 4s eccentric. It seemed like I'd get stuck at weights in an all or nothing fashion. Then with some DE work, I felt I was able to drive faster and better with heavy weights.


In regards to frequenlty switching exercises, I think you have to find a happy medium between practice (making neurological adaptations to be stronger--something like Sheiko) vs. building strength with akward/different exercises. In a sense doesn't all the practice make it easier on your body to squat which will mean moving heavier weights without more muscle? But to build you need to hit other pathways and fibers that force other adaptations besides neuro. I don't think this is absolute, and I think both extremes still work both muscular and neuro.

Joe B
03-02-2013, 07:36 PM
With DE work, using low weight seems to be a better fit. First, it is recommende 50-60% bar weight plus 25% accomodating resitance. So at the top you're hitting 75-95% at the top.

For people who aren't naturally explosive or come from a background of controlled/slow rep speeds, this helps teach them to keep pushing. I see a similar analogy in tennis or any ball sport. A lot of people touch the ball and then stop at that moment and can't generate pace. But, when you touch the ball that is the time to accelerate. For me, DE work has taught me to keep driving the bar even after my "sticking" point.

Yes, with heavy weight rep sets, you'll have to keep pushing hard but usally on the last few reps compared to the first couple reps.

Also, I've always thought of DE day as a way to generate as much force as possible with the lowest weight possible. Generate your 1RM force with 60%. And this might be time dependent. Being able to generate this force quickly can help you drive through heavy weights. But if you don't have this skill, the speed work will teach you.

Prior to some DE work, I used to train with the typical 2s concentric and 4s eccentric. It seemed like I'd get stuck at weights in an all or nothing fashion. Then with some DE work, I felt I was able to drive faster and better with heavy weights.


In regards to frequenlty switching exercises, I think you have to find a happy medium between practice (making neurological adaptations to be stronger--something like Sheiko) vs. building strength with akward/different exercises. In a sense doesn't all the practice make it easier on your body to squat which will mean moving heavier weights without more muscle? But to build you need to hit other pathways and fibers that force other adaptations besides neuro. I don't think this is absolute, and I think both extremes still work both muscular and neuro.

I wanted to highlight this because I think this is what was missing in the earlier discussion of DE work. Developing force is the key to motor unit recruitment. You can develop maximal force with either a) maximal weight or b) maximal acceleration. Which basically means that you can recruit the same muscle fibers with DE work as with ME work.

So there's more to DE work than just teaching explosiveness, and it doesn't put the same stress on your joints etc. Of course, like Rhodes said, there are also advantages to ME work over DE work, but I think that's a better argument for using both than it is for using one and not the other.

Rhodes, I do think your point about short rest intervals turning DE work into conditioning is a great point. I hadn't really thought about that before, but it definitely makes sense to me and will be changing the way I lift. So thanks!

larsen540
03-03-2013, 09:37 AM
Adrian,

My point with the Manning reference is that I believe in getting good at something by doing it. And, I do agree people make it more complicated than it is. Which is why I bench to get better at benching. I do all the necessary back, shoulder etc... work as well.

As for DE work - I know it's not supposed to be conditioning. Just like jumping or sprinting, you need to rest fully in order to apply maximal force to the ground, or in this case, the barbell. If you're not rested the work will turn into conditioning work whether you want it to or not. My thoughts on this are, I wouldn't rest 90 seconds to press 85%+ with maximal force. Why would I try to exert maximal force without proper rest?

My other huge issue with speed work and repetition is that it's only 50-60%. You can push that weight with terrible form and it's no issue. There's no cause for breakdown in form. It's just too easy. Practicing moving a light weight is not the same as moving heavy weight. Light weight will never cause your form to break down. Heavy weight will. This is the only way to learn how to strain against real weight, in my opinion.

i do agree that those who feel they need speed work or are just plain slow could benefit from doing it. i just think it's way to light.

I've always thought about lifting like football. It's all been done before. The best coaches take a little from here and there and it becomes their own. It's not new ideas, just a new way of putting it all together.

At the end of the day, if you believe in what you're doing and there's some semblance of "science" involved, you'll succeed.

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate you explaining it. I just wanted to touch on your DE comments. We are dealing with 50 to 60 percent that would be like quickly walking up 3 stairs and stopping for 90 sec if you are tired after that maybe you should incorporate some GPP in your workout..HAHAHA I dont feel that you only press 85 percent of 50 or 60 percent of your max on DE days if done within 90 sec. That sounds like a complicated math question. The thought is to have multiple sets with little rest working on explosive speed. Again I do not follow the 90 sec to a T. It is a template. Some sets may be done in 45 sec and some may be done in 120 sec. Now remember DE days is getting in repition. This is a good time for people to work on there form your right if your a jackass and dick up your form at 50 percent your likely to do it with your 90 percent. But what about this doesnt it make sense to work on your form with lighter weight than max weight. I know me personally I screw up my form 100 percent of the time when dealing with max weight. Not 50 percent. My form is dailed in when it is easy to press and I think that is likely the case with most people. Trying to learn how to fix your form with 90 percent isnt going to work people will always revert back to bad habbits to make the press eaiser.

I understand your concept of doing something over and over to get better, and that makes a ton of sense. But Benching is much different than football or olympic lifting. I would suggest football is more like olympic lifting training. Where you do need to do it often and practice because it is a very complicated movement and you need to be precise. Now in all honesty I wish I could say the same about benching and maybe since I dont bench with my feet on the ground maybe I am missing something but really it all boils down to can you bring the bar controlled to your chest and than press it out. That is really it sure there are a few technical things to do but it isnt hard. And really if I can do what I can do with no leg drive than I just proved it isnt hard because I am not the brightest person out there.

RhodeHouse
03-04-2013, 07:37 AM
I understand what you are saying and I appreciate you explaining it. I just wanted to touch on your DE comments. We are dealing with 50 to 60 percent that would be like quickly walking up 3 stairs and stopping for 90 sec if you are tired after that maybe you should incorporate some GPP in your workout..HAHAHA I dont feel that you only press 85 percent of 50 or 60 percent of your max on DE days if done within 90 sec. That sounds like a complicated math question. The thought is to have multiple sets with little rest working on explosive speed. Again I do not follow the 90 sec to a T. It is a template. Some sets may be done in 45 sec and some may be done in 120 sec. Now remember DE days is getting in repition. This is a good time for people to work on there form your right if your a jackass and dick up your form at 50 percent your likely to do it with your 90 percent. But what about this doesnt it make sense to work on your form with lighter weight than max weight. I know me personally I screw up my form 100 percent of the time when dealing with max weight. Not 50 percent. My form is dailed in when it is easy to press and I think that is likely the case with most people. Trying to learn how to fix your form with 90 percent isnt going to work people will always revert back to bad habbits to make the press eaiser.

I understand your concept of doing something over and over to get better, and that makes a ton of sense. But Benching is much different than football or olympic lifting. I would suggest football is more like olympic lifting training. Where you do need to do it often and practice because it is a very complicated movement and you need to be precise. Now in all honesty I wish I could say the same about benching and maybe since I dont bench with my feet on the ground maybe I am missing something but really it all boils down to can you bring the bar controlled to your chest and than press it out. That is really it sure there are a few technical things to do but it isnt hard. And really if I can do what I can do with no leg drive than I just proved it isnt hard because I am not the brightest person out there.

I don't thinkI explainedmy 85% thing well, because it had nothing to do with math. HAHAHA! What I was saying is that 85% of my 1rm is going to teach me form much betetr than 50-6-%.

As for DE work, I understand the whole idea of doing the work with shorter rest. however, the fact still remains that exp[losive strength cannot be built without proper rest. Despite what Louie says, you need rest to be fully explosive. if you're not rested, you will not be as explosive as you can be. Hence, it turns into conditioning work. Not conditioning like we all think, but conditioning.

I will always go back to doing something over and over to be great at it. To be a great Math student, you study math. To be a great basketball player, you practice basketball. I get the special exercises as supplemental work. it just doesn't make sense as a ME exercise. Practice what you play.

But, it's America and we are allowed to have different opinions. The other great thing is that progress can be made doing a variety of things. I just don't think Westside is the best way to get stronger. But, it obviously works.

KJDANEXT0
03-04-2013, 12:24 PM
One thing I still don't understand about westside is why they bodybuild if they're powerlifters.

Now I know that any hypertrophy work will make you stronger, but in a video I've seen louie talks about an athlete who would be slowed down if they added some mass, and he insists that they should train their nervous system for power. Why after saying that does he have his lifters doing all kinds of bodybuilding after their main work?

Is he training lifters different to other athletes? I must be missing something.

BloodandThunder
03-04-2013, 01:26 PM
One thing I still don't understand about westside is why they bodybuild if they're powerlifters.

Now I know that any hypertrophy work will make you stronger, but in a video I've seen louie talks about an athlete who would be slowed down if they added some mass, and he insists that they should train their nervous system for power. Why after saying that does he have his lifters doing all kinds of bodybuilding after their main work?

Is he training lifters different to other athletes? I must be missing something.

There is an inherent difference between the demands of running a sub 9.8 100 m dash and squatting 1100+ or benching 900+ in a multiply meet.

RFabsik
03-04-2013, 02:08 PM
One thing I still don't understand about westside is why they bodybuild if they're powerlifters.

Now I know that any hypertrophy work will make you stronger, but in a video I've seen louie talks about an athlete who would be slowed down if they added some mass, and he insists that they should train their nervous system for power. Why after saying that does he have his lifters doing all kinds of bodybuilding after their main work?

Is he training lifters different to other athletes? I must be missing something.

He was referring to Crossfitters who want a low bodyweight with maximal strength so that the extra mass wouldn't hamper their ability to perform.

He's trained a whole bunch of athletes, some who need to be lean (crossfitters, track)--hence the emphasis on neuro work instead of bodybuilding and others (football, MMA, and of course powerlifters)--and they can do more bodybuilding work depending on where they fit in their weight class.

Travis Bell
03-04-2013, 06:09 PM
One thing I still don't understand about westside is why they bodybuild if they're powerlifters.

Now I know that any hypertrophy work will make you stronger, but in a video I've seen louie talks about an athlete who would be slowed down if they added some mass, and he insists that they should train their nervous system for power. Why after saying that does he have his lifters doing all kinds of bodybuilding after their main work?

Is he training lifters different to other athletes? I must be missing something.

You explained it yourself. He's talking to athletes.

A lot of athletes we see are not nearly as big as your typical powerlifter. They need to build mass. Increasing the size of the muscles, to a degree, will increase their efficiency.

If you're going to watch Louie's vids, you have to realize he's helping a lot of strength coaches around the wold develop programs so his application stuff is different from powerlifters. While the principles are the same, the application, or the specifics can vary.

Brian Hopper
03-05-2013, 05:14 PM
For all the cube haters...

QtKQMwAs_XQ

RhodeHouse
03-06-2013, 09:53 AM
For all the cube haters...

QtKQMwAs_XQ

HAHAHA! HAHAHA! HAHAHA! That's priceless! Great job to Brandon Lilly.

Alex.V
03-06-2013, 10:17 AM
lol. Ok, that was funny.

Though I'm still getting really bored of all this crap, with people on both sides getting defensive about technicalities. Just shut the fuck up and lift however you want.

Travis Bell
03-06-2013, 10:52 AM
lol it's a discussion board bud. That's kinda the point. Nothing wrong with a little heated exchange. Just shows people believe in how they train. Nothing wrong with that.

Alex.V
03-06-2013, 02:52 PM
Travis, nah I know man. I meant more the drama that keeps getting played out on Facebook, YouTube, etc... all the back and forth that's gotten a little nasty. Not the debate here. :)

Travis Bell
03-07-2013, 04:01 AM
Travis, nah I know man. I meant more the drama that keeps getting played out on Facebook, YouTube, etc... all the back and forth that's gotten a little nasty. Not the debate here. :)

Oh that. haha yeah I'm usually pretty unaware of that stuff. I don't tend to pay much attention to that stuff. But you're right, it's stupid.