First cycle question

[Sinep]

That's right.. another interesting topic by the one and only Sinep. Frankster is telling me that a guy told him that he should try to make maximum gain from the minimum gear.. progressing to higher dose in later cycles. That is logical if you think about it.. but I think I've read an article that you should not necessarily limit yourself in your first cycle for some reasons I don't remember.. but I think it was in part because it was the first cycle. Expert opinions please?

[Tadger]

I am by no means an expert, but all the hype about the first cycle is a bit overdone if you ask me. People say that you won't make gains like you do in your first cycle because your receptors are virgin and other bs like that. First of all... there's already test flowing through your system every day so how can your receptors can be "virgin?" Steroids pass through the plasma membrane of cells quite easily because of their small size. They pass into the cytosol. It is here that they must bind with a receptor in order to pass through the nuclear membrane. The steroid binds with the receptor, moves through the nuclear membrane and the receptor-steroid complex initiates protein transcription... then both the receptor and steroid are destroyed... broken down and metabolized by the cell. There is no possible way you can not have virgin receptors... unless they are already bound to a steroid.

The reason people often say that you make your best gains on your first cycle is simply due to the fact once you hit a cycle... you end up bigger. The bigger you are, the more gear it takes to put more meat on ya. If you hit a cycle, lost all the weight that you put on with the gear and ended up back where you started, you put on muscle just as easily with a second cycle as in the first.

Now as for whether to hit your first cycle hard or to use as little gear as possible... I tend to think that you should worry more about being able to keep the gains you make rather than how big you can get while actually on the gear. Granted low dosages with any new drug is a good idea... that way you can see how your body reacts to it is a good idea... there is nothing wrong with hitting the gear hard for the first cycle. Now hitting it hard doesn't mean taking the harshest drugs. Obviously abombs wouldn't be an ideal choice for a first cycle. The best is to go with the tried and true drugs that are active longer in the body and have the fewest side effects. This will put on muscle that's alot easier to keep on. I've heard of a couple people doing one amp of sust every two weeks. This will give you a little boost, but most would want to hit it a bit harder. It all depends on what you're looking for out of the cycle. A light to moderate cycle is what most people prefer to do as a first... and for health reasons, starting on a 14week 1g test + 600deca/week + 150mg anadrol/day followed by 40mg dbol/day may go over well with someone that has a few cycles under their belt but not for a beginner.

wow... I'm kinda rambling here... I'm tired. I don't know if any of what I just said makes sense. I just started typing and didn't even really plan out what I was gonna say... oh well. Hope that helped a little at least.

[Daniel Clough]

Sinep I have been thinking about this...

I mean it is logical that the chances are if you are going to do a cycle you might do another one, Therefore it makes sense to keep things sensible and moderate as you will probably grow from looking at deca lol...

One person that I know has this opinion and has the photos to back it up is Yates :) Yates, really does use minimally and many would probably laugh at the low volume of his cycles, but it still stanbds he is a big mofo :)

But I also was thinking about the rumour you make your best gains from your first cycle and who knows you it might be your only time so you might aswell make the most of it.. Not go overboard, but you know do somehitng worthwhile..

Hell I am prob way to uneducated on steroids to give advice but I thought this and asked a few questions a while back... I got mixed responses...

Some said just go for it and do a 12 week sust/test cycle with dbol.. :eek: You know.... make the most of it..

Others said you will grow so easily so just use a moderate deca cycle....

I guess you gotta make the decision from who to believe and who not to. Also some people have a diff view on steroids..


Some people are just more willing to take more risks by using more gear.. Some aren't... This will affect their advice...

I am pretty sure i will use AS next year and am also 90% sure it will be something along the lines of a 10 week deca cycle with perhaps some dbol thrown in towards the beginning of the cycle... Thats just me, but it seems to be something in the middle of what people are saying..

Hope that is of help :)

[Shaggy]

From what I've seen, I would start off with lower dosages and work your way up.

I've seen blokes get ****ing massive from taking huge amounts of sauce from early cycles, but they find it very hard to keep any of the gains they make when they come off.

Personally if I was to do a first cycle again, sus and deca would be my choice and at pretty low dosages.

[kAto]

IMO a cycle isnt really a cycle without test, you need somekind of test. however if h2o retention worries you then just stick to fast acting esters like propionate.

i agree with what others say though, you want to start really low, otherwise your possible side effects would be unexpected, and the proper percautions may be unintentionally neglected.

[Tadger]

Hulk, just a quick comment on your cycle idea... 10 weeks on the deca isn't bad, but I'd toss in some test or something androgenic as well. Alot of guys have problems with "deca dick" if they don't stack it with some test or something. Anything nor-testosterone based can affect erectile function. For some, it doesn't even happen until weeks after the cycle has ended... and may last for a period of months. I guess for some that's not a problem... but personally, that would just freak me out and I know my woman would be pretty ****ed too. The d-bol would be quite sufficient as it's quite androgenic, but you're not going to want to run that for more than 6 weeks, and it's out of your system pretty quickly. If you stack the deca with some enanthate or something with a similar halflife then you're good to go.

oh hey, Kato... have you had any water retention problems with prop? I was running it at 300mg/week and I swole up like a water baloon. Usually about 6 hours after I stuck myself... I'd end up thirsty as hell and just pound a gallon of water in short order. I really had to watch what I ate or the next morning my fingers would end up looking like sausages. I don't know if I'm just sensitive to that or what. I haven't had any problems with sust/deca/d-bol... hold a little more water but it's not as bad as when I was on the prop... but the dosage isn't as high either. I'm keepin the sust at 250 deca 200 per week and dbol runnin it light at 25mg/day. That may have something to do with it... but I dunno. I did like how much my strength increased while holding that much water though... I was feelin quite good.

[Belial]

Primo, fina, or anavar. :)


So, sinep, how long 'till your first cycle........?

[kAto]

Originally posted by Tadger

oh hey, Kato... have you had any water retention problems with prop? I was running it at 300mg/week and I swole up like a water baloon. Usually about 6 hours after I stuck myself... I'd end up thirsty as hell and just pound a gallon of water in short order. I really had to watch what I ate or the next morning my fingers would end up looking like sausages. I don't know if I'm just sensitive to that or what. I haven't had any problems with sust/deca/d-bol... hold a little more water but it's not as bad as when I was on the prop... but the dosage isn't as high either. I'm keepin the sust at 250 deca 200 per week and dbol runnin it light at 25mg/day. That may have something to do with it... but I dunno. I did like how much my strength increased while holding that much water though... I was feelin quite good.


wow, im very surprised you retained water on prop, especially since you have no problems with sust and dbol. i actually had no water retention at all, i have to agree with you though, the strength increase was insane! I too was doing 300mgs a week.:D

[Sinep]

Belial, not sure of my plans yet.. one goal at a time
sept 2001 200-205 lbs bulk
then I'm gonna cut to like 7-8%

I'm also gonna compete naturally before juicing

sept 2004 240 ripped :)

[Life4ever]

Fuk deca! Deca has progestrone properties, and if you arent using an anti progtestrone, like winny or ru-486, you can get gyno from deca. Nolvadex and arimidex do nothing for progestrone induced gyno. Progestrones also delay post cycle recovery BIG TIME, causing major ball shrinkage. Test wont do much after you get off of it,. Sustanon 250, organon...500 mg a week for 10 weeks, along with dbols for about 30 mg for no more than 6 would be an ideal first time cycle. I woudl also sub eq for the deca. Just my 2 c's.

[IBLiftin]

Lioe4ever, you seem pretty knowledgeable. At the begining of this cycle I was shooting 300mg of deca every day, fr 10 days. what don't I have double D's? I'm lucky? No, deca rarely causes enough proestrogen to cause gyno. not a good way to get bigger and stay hard would be to shoot 50mg of winny EOd with the deca. You would like the senip or however your name is spelt, lol.

[Daniel Clough]

At the risk od sounding like an idiot what EXACTLY is deca ?

Also what are the most popular tests ?

[Sinep]

deca, d-bol, sustanon, test I'm guessing are the most popular

[Daniel Clough]

is Deca a test though ?

Its just Tadgers opinion on stacking it with a test ? Do you mean ANOTHER test or is deca not a test ?

What is sustanon ? Is that a test...

*Hulk runs off to read some more*

[Sinep]

Oups nevermind my last post.. I thought you were asking about the most popular steroid.. I'm not sure myself what is the difference between steroid and test
*runs with Hulk*

[kAto]

lmao:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[IBLiftin]

"deca" is a derivative of 19-nortestosterone which you hear so much bullcrap about from prohormones. It's increases red blood cell count, protien synthesesis, ECT. Basically everything we want whe trying to get bigger 'cept for a little water retention. It's not pure test, but very similar properties. The most common for or deca is nanadrolone deconate. A good type of deca I'm about to try myself is nandrolone penyl-prop. which should make me retain less water...

[Daniel Clough]

is sust a test ?

[Belial]

sust is actually a combo of different tests:
testosterone propionate, phenylpropionate, isocaproate, and decanoate, if I remember right.

anybody confirm this?

[Daniel Clough]

ok so perhaps thats why deca/sust is a popular cycle..

So tadger deac/sust for 10 weeks with dbol for weeks 4-6 would be better ?

[Sinep]

Hulk, don't listen to them..
try 1g of dbol, 1g of deca, 1g of test, 1g sust every day for 10 weeks and tell me what happen

[Life4ever]

ibliftin. In your case, that happened. But a friend of mine got gyno from it though man, thats why I stated it.You are right though, the chance of getting gyno from deca is less likely, then being on testosterone based injectable. You still have to admit though ib, how about the post cycle ball shrinkage and decreased sex drive? LOL

[gino]

Shrinkage and decreased sex drive happen during the cycle. They will eventually come back after "treatment" has ceased. Shrinkage happens with all juice.

[Life4ever]

Yes gino, that is true. What I was saying is, deca DELAYS post cycle recovery. It takes along while from them babies to come back! LOL

[Tadger]

Originally posted by Hulk
ok so perhaps thats why deca/sust is a popular cycle..

So tadger deac/sust for 10 weeks with dbol for weeks 4-6 would be better ?

Yup... that it would. That is a pretty classic beginner's cycle right there. You could even go with just sust and d-bol. D-bol and testosterone work together quite well... they yeild better results together then each by itself and run back to back.

Personally... I think that sust is overrated. 250mg in one ml is pretty nice, but unless you stick yourself every 2 or 3 days you're wasting the prop that's in it. I would be interested to know if sust loading works... run an amp or sust every 2 or 3 days for like 4 weeks. The short acting stuff won't be wasted and then for the last 4 weeks the longer acting stuff that built up in your system will be released. I've read about it but I'd be interested to see if anyone has tried it.

Hulk, I went with the sust on this cycle cuz I could get it pretty cheap... but I'd recommend getting some testosterone enanthate. It's got a half life of 5 days, so it's rather long acting. Go with 250-500mg/week and you'll be set. It will take about as long as the sust does to hit... about the 4th week it'll kick in... but it'll kick in alot harder. You'll feel real nice. You might retain a little water... but that feels good. You get nice and strong.

[IBLiftin]

Well bro it's kinda hard to take 300mg of deca and 850mg of test ED for a week and have to worry about my nuts shrinking. Not trying to sound gay here but ever see a pro BBer that was hung like a elephant? No, it's just part of the game man....


BTW, if you do a deca only cycle take one clomid EOd and start 2 tabs of clomid the day of your last shot for 2 weeks, then 1 tab for 2 more weeks. You won't notice a thing. Stay away from hcg though.....

[Franco]

Is it true that HCG is made from womans' urine?

[Daniel Clough]

Whats HGC ? LOL just when I think I understand you start using new terms lol...

Tadger thanks for your advice... I rreally appreciate it....

[Shaggy]

Originally posted by Tadger

Personally... I think that sust is overrated. 250mg in one ml is pretty nice, but unless you stick yourself every 2 or 3 days you're wasting the prop that's in it.

Why is the prop wasted? :confused:

[body]

hgc- human chorionic gonadotropin - it is from a hormone in the placenta of pregnant women as is collected in the urine two month after her last menastration.

however to get this stuff cheaply go down the anti-natal clinic and ask to drink the soon to be mums ****.

[YatesNightBlade]

Why no HCG as well as Clomid IB ? Estrogen ?

[IBLiftin]

HCG can cause gyno really quick if you take it wrong. and it lifts test levels so fast and for such a short amount of time the using it with a deca only cycle isn't very productive, ESP if your worried about gyno....

[gino]

Couldn't you just start nolvadex with the HCG and take care of that?

[kAto]

Originally posted by Shaggy


Why is the prop wasted? :confused:

short acting ester such as test propionate has a have life of 3.5 days so if a steady test level is desired, injecting at any less of a frequency then every 3 days is not suffice.

[Tadger]

'zactly. What kato said.

[Life4ever]

Originally posted by gino
Couldn't you just start nolvadex with the HCG and take care of that?

Good question gino,but nolvadex will have little effects. This is because the estrogen production happens within the balls rather than in peripheral tissue.

[gino]

Kato - yes, steady levels are desired . However, they are not required for gains. The prop would not be wasted, but it's benefits would not be maximized either.

Why does it matter where estrogen production happens? Regardless, nolvadex would be competing with the estrogen for receptors, right? Only when estrogen binds to receptors does gyno occur, and nolvadex should prevent most of that.

[Life4ever]

yes gino, that is correct. It only COMPETES though;it does not inhibt estrogen though.

[gino]

Only arimidex does that. At nearly $10 a pill, it can get pricey, though.

[Life4ever]

Gino, 10 bucks a pill!!! Who in the hell do you know LOL...that is very high. I can get it for about 4 or so dollars. A friend of mine gets them for 2 bucks!!

[gino]

Life - You are very lucky to get real arimidex at that price.

I get most of my non-steroidal stuff(clomid, HCG, nolvadex, arimidex) directly from a pharmacy to ensure legitimacy - gyno is not something you want to play around with. $220-$230 is the average price for 30 pills(1/2 - 1 per day as needed), but it is worth every penny.

Prevents aromatization = less estrogen, less bloating, less hair loss. All very valuable.