Does one need to do curls and tri extensions

[the doc]

Lately I've been following some advice from people here and elsewhere my trimming down from 4 and sometimes 5 day a week splits to 3 day split

mon back (rows, pulldowns, and deads)
wed chest shoulder (flat, incline, dips or decline, OH press, arnolds)
fri legs. (squats, press, SLDL, extensions)
I've been concentrating on compound exercises and as heavy weight as i can in the 4-8 rep range. I limit workouts to 1 hr max.

My question is- am i working the bi's and tri's enough or do i need to work them directly? It seems like their getting worked as i am sore everywhere after dead lift day but i don't know i should do some french press and curls.

Thanks very much!

[Cackerot69]

nope, you don't 'need' to do any direct arm work.

[Maki Riddington]

Finally you are gracing us with your wisdom:)

[Chris Rodgers]

Your triceps look like they get hit hard on chest/shoulder day. You might want to do a few sets of barbell curls on back day, but it is not necessary.

[chris mason]

Direct work for the arms. If you want to maximize their size and strength then direct work is in order. If you are not concerned with that and wish to direct your energies to other body parts then you need not perform direct work for them.

[Joe Black]

If it was me I WOULD include direct work for bi's and tri's...

I have tried not to include direct work and just felt nothing was happening.. We are all different of course so go with what you feel...

I agree with Chris if you are concerned about them or neeup I would throw in a tri and bi exercise.

[YatesNightBlade]

If you feel that your triceps or biceps are not getting enough work then add some excersies. Lying extentions are the best for Tris as they do for the Tris what beching does for the chest.

[Paul Stagg]

It all depends on what your goals are.

Are you trying to gain 30 pounds of muscle as fast as you can, or are you trying to gain 5 pounds of muscle and refine an already pretty big physique?

Are you going to compete as a PLer or OLer?

I've done routines where I limited my direct arm work, and I was pleased with the result, but my goal was to gain lots of muscle fast (direct arm work doesn't do that, heavy compound movements do..)

In your routine, I think a little would be in order, or you need to change your exercise choices.

For example, I would use chins instead of pulldowns. I would do only 2-3 presses, and one of them would be dips.

YMMV

[the doc]

Originally posted by Paul Stagg
It all depends on what your goals are.

Are you trying to gain 30 pounds of muscle as fast as you can, or are you trying to gain 5 pounds of muscle and refine an already pretty big physique?



Hey man i wish it was the latter and i was a ripped 225 :D

but for me its the former- just trying to be healthy and get as strong as i can be. It looks like i should be concentrating on compound movements and thats great as i really like them. They really leave me wimpering out of the gym. Its great! So if i am not already over an hour for the workout then i'll fill the end with a few sets of direct arm work. Whew, my arms (and whole body) get really sore after doing those deads-is that typical?
thanks again for everyones help.

[ryuage]

I find that doing direct arm work helps me in some lifts, like for example working tris and delts actually increases my bench slightly.. I don't know but it just feels that way to me. All I know is if I wanted huge arms I would do direct arm work =]

[Albert]

What you're doing is great. A great routine for your goals: "just trying to be healthy and get as strong as i can be". Nothing beats compound movements for strength and overall size. Here's the thing to help get you over the top: At some point, you have to mix up your routine---every 6-12 weeks, generally. When you plan a routine change, reassess your goals, and adjust accordingly. For example, you hit your major strength goals, but your arms are lagging behind your chest/shoulder/back development----mix in some direct arm work (bar curls/lying tri xtn's). Eventually, you will probably benefit from mixing up routines with direct arm work and those without or very little. A lot of the anwer will lie in your genetics, recoverability, determination, and goals.

[chris mason]

I agree with what Albert said except the part about needing to vary your routine. Physically, if you constantly push your muscles (overload) them and allow for overcompensation I do not think you ever need to very your routine. I have done very well with my workouts using a very limited number of exercises over the years. Sometimes it is psychologically beneficial to vary your routine to prevent boredom. I find it interesting that most people (maybe not you Albert) who promote routine variation also tell you to include deadlifts and squats in every routine. If their logic was correct, you would not want to perform even those exercises for more than 6-12 weeks. If the thought is that the muscle adapts to specific exercises, then it would follow that this pertained to all movements. I do not believe that the musculature can become accustomed to and unresponsive to certain exercises as long as you continually push to increase weight or reps or both. I feel that one should find 1-2 exercises per bodypart that suit their unique anatomy and then use them. The consistency of using specific exercises also allows for better tracking of strength levels. Getting stronger on one exercise will not necessarily translate to increased strength on another for the same muscle group. For example, I switched to dumbell bench presses from barbell for some time. I got much stronger on the dumbell presses, but when I went back to the bench press I was actually weaker. This is due to the neurological component of training. Each exercise requires a specific neural adaptation and as you perform the exercise repeatedly, your nervous system gets more and more proficient. This is probably the reason that most people like to switch exercises. They gain quickly when they switch exercises because their nervous system is getting "used" to the movement. These gains are not in muscle, but neurological efficiency. Stick with a movement, and after the first couple of weeks to a month you gains will be all due to increase in muscle mass.

[the doc]

thanks everyone for the help. I like what albert was saying about "When you plan a routine change, reassess your goals, and adjust accordingly..." as i am still under 1 year of lifting i guess i am still feeling out the heavy compound movements. So I should be constantly reassesing how the lifts are progressing. So i'll work with the goal of finding those 1-2 exercises that chris mason was talking about.

Chris mason, what do you think about doing the same exercises, but changing the order of some of the lifts every now and then? Or is consistancy the key?

[chris mason]

Do you mean changing the order of exercises for a particular bodypart or different bodyparts?

[the doc]

so should i always keep the same order (back, chest shoulders, legs) of the split ?
and

should i say change up and do military press before bench press ?

[Albert]

Varying the routine for me does not mean changing all the exercises. I always use the same core exercises, but I like to change the order & #of reps/sets to fight off over-familiarity and to stress different bodyparts. For example, I usually plan a 2 day break in my routine, and the day following is the bodypart I will stress for the next cycle. I vary # of reps to work my way down to lower rep cycles to improve my 1RM. I'll trade exercises here and there, but most importantly for me, is the renewed vigor and determination I get from reassessing, evaluating, and adjusting. I find it is critical from a mental standpoint to periodically take inventory of your diet, workout, progress, and goals. I added over 100 lbs to my Bench, Squat, and DL 1RM's last year (14 mos.)without AS and I am on my way to doing it again this year. I spent the previous 7 years making little or no progress, happy to get up to 225 lb. Bench, 250 lb. Squat and 275 lb. deadlift. I believe the biggest difference outside of focusing on compound movements & strength, was varying my routine and reassessing to avoid plateaus, boredom, and overtraining.

Chris,
I completely agree with you on the notion of "overload", it is in fact central to my approach. Do you not agree that varying your routine helps you overload your muscles by not allowing them to get too familiar with your workout(#of reps, order, etc) vs. progress from neurological adaptation? For example, when I do a cycle at 4-6 reps vs. a cycle at 8-12, I feel I am accomplishing 2 different things with the same set of exercises and order. But at the same time, if I stay at 4-6 reps I will probably burn out and if I stay at 8-12 I probably wont get stronger as fast, so I feel change is imminent in the quest for strength. And for me, the quest for strength = the practice of continually overloading your muscles.

[chris mason]

Albert, no I don't think that varying your repetitions consistently will benefit you. As a matter of fact, I think the exact opposite. I know that there is an exact number of reps for each individual that will maximally stimulate growth. Let me give you an example, Ellington Darden PhD was training a gentleman recently and through the process of trial and error he discovered that this gentleman only made progress if he trained for exactly 5 reps per set. He then made great progress. Now, in my article I recommend doing 2 sets per exercise (for most) and performing the 1st set with low reps and the second set with higher reps. I said this because I believed that lower reps would hit primarily fast twitch and higher reps slow twitch fibers. I still think this is a good idea, but not for the same reason. I am now not convinced that 12-15 reps train (primarily) slow twitch fibers. I think the opposite may be true. I do think that it is still good to do high and low reps for each exercise because I realize that most people do not have the time or patience to experiment enough to find their ideal rep count. I do recommend that you experiment and try to find you ideal count, but if you have neither the time or patience the mixed reps on consecutive sets has a better chance of stimulating gorwth than one set rep count. Please note, above I stated that there is an exact rep count to stimulate MAXIMAL growth. I did not say that you cannot grow if you do not use this count. On a last count, how can your muscles get "used" to a particular exercise. Your muscles either contract or they don't based upon signals from your nervous system. Muscles have no ability to reason or think about why they are contracting. I do believe that it is ok to mix up the routine on occasion if you need to refresh yourself mentally, but I would try to find other more productive means of refreshing you mind.

By the way, congrats on you progress! What are your current stats (size, lifts etc.)?

[Albert]

Chris, Thanks for the reply.
I can't argue with your post regarding an optimal rep count b/c that may be true for me to some extent, however, my approach differs more from a philosophical standpoint. You mentioned that there is an exact rep count to stimulate MAXIMAL growth, and that is, undoubtedly an important incentive. I am a hardgainer, and after years of pursuing muscle growth with meager results, I decided I would focus entirely on getting stronger. I knew if I could BP, squat, & DL hundreds of lbs. more I would grow. Research, and advice lead me to utilize Periodization. It is a very prevalent practice of Powerlifters who are constantly cycling at higher 1RM's. For the past 16 mos 28 days, I have been cycling reps 10-12; down to 1-3 to peak at higher and higher 1RM's in various power lifts. My 1RMs climbed dramatically, I transformed my body, and I have avoided injury and have had very little stalling in my progress. For me to continually exceed prior lifts, I cycle down to a 10-14 day period where I am performing sets at 1-3 reps at near maximal poundage. This takes a lot out of me and I can not maintain this for long, so I will return to higher reps and lower % poundage (that is calculated at the new, higher 1RM #'s). I will then repeat this cycle for a different set of lifts, and so on. My goals for this year are to increase 1RM's while incorporating more of a Bodybuilding approach to achieve balance and definition.
Here are some personal stats(see previous post for #'s 16 mos ago):
BP: 365
Squat (90 degrees): est-485 (405x6)
DL: est-516 (405x8)
Military: est-225 (185x6)
Goals: 405/550/600/250
Measurements: 6' 218lbs. ~9-10%BF
Chest 49 7/8"
Waist 34
Bicep 17 1/8"
Thigh 27 3/4"

I began at about 195 lbs. ~20-25%BF, no arms, no chest--I never took measurements or pics because I was so frustrated. I went from an oval to a hard V during this time frame and look like a different person now.
Now, I will not say that once my strength goals are met that incorporating a more consistent routine will not be in my best interest, because that may be the route I take---however, I just feel wholeheartedly that I could not have made the strength gains without the periodization cycles and without the strength gains I probably would still be frustrated.

[Joe Black]

I love reading posts like this...

I just sit back, read and soak up the info... :)

[chris mason]

Albert,

I will not say that periodization doesn't work because I believe it does. I just don't believe it to be the most efficient method. I know that periodization is in vogue these days, but I think periodization only stems from most people's misunderstanding of proper training and recuperation techniques. That being said, it seems to have worked well for you. I'm curious, you consider yourself a hard gainer and yet you are a very lean 218 lbs at 6' in height (with excellent strength). That doesn't indicate hard gainer to me. You obviously are genetically endowed with plenty of muscle fibers. I think you make the mistake that 99.0% of bodybuilders make, you assume that because following the routines that Arnold and the bodybuilding mags promote didn't work for you, that you are a hard gainer. You should rethink your position. You obviously have great genetics, but you have proven that excessive volume doesn't work for even those who are genetically blessed. By your definition (not accounting for drug use), EVERYONE is a hard gainer. Anyone who reads this post, please think about the last few sentences. Brief and infrequent exercise with resistance is the only way to naturally maximize your muscle mass. Periodization works because it allows for periods of overtraining followed by periods of rest (i.e. the body gets to recover) and decreased intensity (this becomes a continuous cycle). The last sentence is why I don't think it is the most efficient, it is essentially two steps forward and one step back. I prefer to continually (not accounting for illness etc.) move forward.

[Chris Rodgers]

You guys write a lot. :) At least what you guys write you back up and don't flame like little children.