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Tbizkit
09-09-2002, 08:07 PM
Has anyone tried this stuff? Designer Whey makes a new protien supp. that claims it slowly releases the whey protien into your system over a 8 hr period. They say that normal whey is quickly absorded and could be useed for energy instead muscle build. The stuff is called Glycerlean. any opinions?

Thanks
http://www.designerwhey.com/2nd_level_prodinfo_smooth.html#

LAM
09-09-2002, 08:11 PM
IMO those claims are bogus...I won't believe it until the product is tested by a 3rd-party independant testing facility...

Tbizkit
09-09-2002, 08:13 PM
Yea I feel the same but if it worked it would be cool for sleeptime. plus it cost 74.00 for a 4lb tub!
ooch.

Shao-LiN
09-09-2002, 08:26 PM
Even if it did work, I wouldn't pay $74. Eat some cottage cheese and be happy =).

Jilla82
09-09-2002, 08:27 PM
yuck!! cottage cheese :(

Tbizkit
09-09-2002, 08:45 PM
Cottage cheese kicks ass!

Jilla82
09-09-2002, 09:10 PM
How can you eat that stuff? you eat it plain or w/ fruit?

LAM
09-09-2002, 09:19 PM
you get used to the taste and texture.

Moose
09-09-2002, 09:43 PM
Taste really means nothing to me anymore. I've really dedicated myself and it doesn't matter how bad some things may taste. Today I mixed Tuna with my scrambled eggs and it was downright horrible (it could be good, but I didn't proportion it correctly)......but I sat here and ate every last ounce. All I can think about anymore is what the food is going to do for my body. Taste is a very distant second now.

I can't believe some of the people who, for example, complain about the taste of their protien shake. It takes about 7 seconds to drink. You're willing to spend 50-60 minutes in the gym, paying the price.......but you have a hard time dealing with 7 seconds of distaste that feed your past hour of hard work?

TreeTrunks
09-09-2002, 10:02 PM
1% fat cottage cheese is awesome. I have a little with every meal, well almost every meal.

Shao-LiN
09-09-2002, 10:21 PM
I took to the taste almost instantly. I agree w/ Moose on the taste thing. But I think I'm part of a weird minority. I actually don't taste flax oil. It leaves a weird after taste in my mouth, but nothing I can't get rid of with some water.

And simple things like veggies...my mind creates some weird taste that I don't like =P. I've learned to stomach it though.

TreeTrunks
09-09-2002, 10:30 PM
flax tastes like **** unless its on oatmeal then it is awesome!!!!! btw im watching pumping iron for the 25 time!! whoo hoo!!!!

gino
09-11-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Tbizkit
Yea I feel the same but if it worked it would be cool for sleeptime. plus it cost 74.00 for a 4lb tub!
ooch.

Natural egg and milk protein works just as well and lasts *nearly* as long. A dozen eggs is around $1.50 - cheap high quality slow releasing protein.

raniali
09-11-2002, 02:16 PM
I just want to remind everyone that is thinking of wasting money on any time-release protein concoction that it is completely unnecessary. If you are eating good meals every few hours - why do you need 8-hr time release???? If you are THAT worried about the time sleeping - then get up in the middle of the night and throw down a shake (like many people here do). IMO - missing protein/meal during the night will NOT hinder your gains to any significant measure if the rest of your regimen is in check.

body
09-11-2002, 04:06 PM
you could always eat more food. have a warroir diet size meal instead, but just eat through the rest of the day as well.

they can't say 8 hours as absorption is dependant on lots of things.

a) hydration level
b) how big the meal is
c) the last time you ate
E) what you are doing at the time. eat food then go and do tour de france, your meal will take longer to digest.

plus many other things. now it may take 8 hours to digest if you alter some of the variable to your favour. but I do not want to eat then go cycling for the next 7 hours, while dehydrated plus having eating 2,000 kcal on the previous meal.

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-11-2002, 04:21 PM
Good stuff.

Why pay more for time-release protein, when real food is time-release? Cheaper too, as Gino said.

I like Cottage cheese. In fact, i love cottage cheese.

the doc
09-12-2002, 10:43 AM
casein is the slowest absorbing protein,
as gino mentioned, the cost is significantly less

dont buy the designer glycerlean
it is a testament to their clever marketing and the fact that they play on people to get them to believe that this will make a difference

the doc
09-12-2002, 10:43 AM
so in other works, have some cheese ( the lower fat type if you want)
before bed

gino
09-12-2002, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by raniali
I just want to remind everyone that is thinking of wasting money on any time-release protein concoction that it is completely unnecessary. If you are eating good meals every few hours - why do you need 8-hr time release???? If you are THAT worried about the time sleeping - then get up in the middle of the night and throw down a shake (like many people here do). IMO - missing protein/meal during the night will NOT hinder your gains to any significant measure if the rest of your regimen is in check.

You are a little off here. I agree that wasting money on one of these slow releasing protein supplements is not wise, but you DO need slow releasing protein before bed to keep your amino acid levels up while you sleep. Much muscle repair happens during deep sleep, and amino acids play a big role in muscle repair/recovery. Interrupting deep sleep is the last thing I'd advise anyone do. Getting enough sleep is essential to recovery and gains in the gym. Why would one want to interrupt deep sleep to eat food when they could simply eat some slow releasing protein before bed? You make it sound like we're advising someone do something completely unusual and inconvenient here - It's not tough...we're not saying it's essential to ride a unicycle around the block before bed, just injest some slow realeasing whole food protein and enjoy your sleep.

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-12-2002, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by gino


Interrupting deep sleep is the last thing I'd advise anyone do.

Me either.

Shao-LiN
09-12-2002, 11:27 AM
If you want to slow down the protein even further, gulp down some flax.

LAM
09-12-2002, 11:33 AM
soluble fiber is the only supplement that has been proven to slow the modulation of proteins, specifically whey(s)...

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-12-2002, 11:43 AM
Yeah, that may be so, but fat in take stimulates bile release into the stomach which delays gastric emptying.

Jilla82
09-12-2002, 12:28 PM
ehhh, skrew all that taste dont matter crap. I like to eat, taste matters alot to me. If it aint good im not eating it. Im not die hard like alot of people on here. Ill just enjoy my short little life

duque21
09-12-2002, 12:43 PM
Yeah if slow absortion is what your going for I would go with a "calcium-cassinate" protein and maybe mix it with milk. I have read a few places that milk is like the slowest whole food source of protein to digest.

Shao-LiN
09-12-2002, 01:01 PM
ehhh, skrew all that taste dont matter crap. I like to eat, taste matters alot to me. If it aint good im not eating it. Im not die hard like alot of people on here. Ill just enjoy my short little life

One meal of the day right before you go to sleep. It really isn't that damn hard.

LAM
09-12-2002, 01:13 PM
TCD...correct, along with that action from bile soluble fiber which does not slow the digestion process but the actual release of aminos into the bloodstream.

gino
09-12-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Jilla82
ehhh, skrew all that taste dont matter crap. I like to eat, taste matters alot to me. If it aint good im not eating it. Im not die hard like alot of people on here. Ill just enjoy my short little life

Was taste an issue here? Anyways, enjoy your life, but don't expect the best training results from your diet. And life isn't short...life is LONG, especially if you make the wrong decisions.



A Definition of Casein Protein

Casein

The other major protein in milk is casein, the "curds" from cheese. Casein is digested slower than whey protein and maintains amino acid levels in the blood for a longer period of time. This differs from whey protein, which can be broken down rapidly, but elevates amino acid levels in the blood for a shorter period of time. another benefit of casein is that it is fairly high in the amino acids glutamine, tyrosine, threonine, and arginine. These are amino acids are not found in as great an amount in most other proteins including whey. Casein also moves slower through the digestive tract, which may allow for better absorption of its amino acids and growth factors. This last point has stimulated lots of interest in casein research, because it may allow for certain factors to be absorbed that otherwise could not.

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-12-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by LAM
TCD...correct, along with that action from bile soluble fiber which does not slow the digestion process but the actual release of aminos into the bloodstream.

Wait a sec man. Use more grammar. I realise this is just a forum, but i'm not too sure which you're saying here:

"along with that action from bile soluble fiber, which does not slow the digestion process, but the actual release of aminos into the bloodstream."

OR

"along with that action from bile, soluble fiber, which does not slow the digestion process but the actual release of aminos into the bloodstream."

I'm thinking the latter since i've never heard of 'bile soluble fibre', lol.

fat takes longer to digest and thus slow digestion. Bile slows digestion. If digestion is slowed, protein won't be broekn down as quick. The result is that aminos won't pass through the intestinal wall and enter the blood as quick.

Albeit, fat, along with fibre, probably does slow digestion ever further. In fact, i'd say it's pretty much definite.

the doc
09-12-2002, 02:38 PM
another factor is the simple dilution of the concentration of protein/partially digested aminos by fibre or fat.

Digestion is to an osmotic process to a great extent (yes there are ion pumps which assist as well)

osmotic simply describes the phenomina whereby concentrations want to equalize across a semipermiable membrane (in this case the intestinal wall)


Thus, aminos want to pass from the inner portion of the intestine (where their concentration is high) to the bloodstream (where the concentraion is low)

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-12-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by the doc
another factor is the simple dilution of the concentration of protein/partially digested aminos by fibre or fat.

Digestion is to an osmotic process to a great extent (yes there are ion pumps which assist as well)

osmotic simply describes the phenomina whereby concentrations want to equalize across a semipermiable membrane (in this case the intestinal wall)


Thus, aminos want to pass from the inner portion of the intestine (where their concentration is high) to the bloodstream (where the concentraion is low)

Yes, which is why if you take in too much of one amino acid, you get the Hershey squirts.

DcK
09-13-2002, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Shao-LiN
If you want to slow down the protein even further, gulp down some flax.

Shao-Lin, do you have a study to support this? I know this is a common recommendation, but some of the latest studies I'm seeing says it doesn't make any differenece when intaking an oil along with the protein vs the protein alone.

Thanks.

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-13-2002, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by DcK


Shao-Lin, do you have a study to support this? I know this is a common recommendation, but some of the latest studies I'm seeing says it doesn't make any differenece when intaking an oil along with the protein vs the protein alone.

Thanks.

Have you just ignored all other posts in thread?

LAM
09-13-2002, 11:47 AM
sorry about that TCD...when I typed that I knew the grammar was all fuked up but I was to lazy to correct it...:D

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-13-2002, 01:25 PM
S'Ok man.

Me being the closet genius that i am y'know...

DcK
09-13-2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


Have you just ignored all other posts in thread?

Nope, haven't ignored a one! So, I guess a polite way to answer my original question concerning any studies was: NO, unless you consider your prior statement:

"Yeah, that may be so, but fat in take stimulates bile release into the stomach which delays gastric emptying."

A peer reviewed study?

Holto
09-13-2002, 03:39 PM
DcK:

I have heard similar things about the newest studies to date but haven't had a chance to read one.

could you post a link or a title

DcK
09-13-2002, 05:21 PM
If you go to elitefitness.com over there and search for PwB (username) you'll see several threads about it. I can't reply to any of the threads b/c I'm not a paying member, but I've IM'ed him in an attempt to locate the references he speaks of... I can't find any references EITHER way.. just would like to learn more about it in general, but it keeps coming up, I'd just like to see some data supporting either side.

the doc
09-13-2002, 05:45 PM
bile is not released into the stomach but into the small intestine. Its purpose is to solvate oils (much in the way that a detergent would) to allow them to absorbed by the body.


I'll repeat my earlier post

[quote]another factor is the simple dilution of the concentration of protein/partially digested aminos by fibre or fat.

Digestion is to an osmotic process to a great extent (yes there are ion pumps which assist as well)

osmotic simply describes the phenomina whereby concentrations want to equalize across a semipermiable membrane (in this case the intestinal wall)


Thus, aminos want to pass from the inner portion of the intestine (where their concentration is high) to the bloodstream (where the concentraion is low)


[quote]

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-13-2002, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by DcK


Nope, haven't ignored a one! So, I guess a polite way to answer my original question concerning any studies was: NO, unless you consider your prior statement:

"Yeah, that may be so, but fat in take stimulates bile release into the stomach which delays gastric emptying."

A peer reviewed study?

Well, ok man, but i was under the impression this was a well known concept.

Just to let you know, i am at this very minute scanning pubmed. I'm not the type of person to say "When i have time" or "i'll get round to it" and never do.

In fact, you wouldn't believe how difficult it is to find an abstract of a simple study. Everything seems to be looking for the extreme complexities.

Here's something i've found in my scanning:

Physiol Behav 1999 Aug;67(2):299-306 Related Articles, Links


Comparison of the effects of a high-fat and high-carbohydrate soup delivered orally and intragastrically on gastric emptying, appetite, and eating behaviour.

Cecil JE, Francis J, Read NW.

Centre for Human Nutrition, University of Sheffield, Northern General Hospital, UK. Cecil@monell.org

To investigate the effects of fat and carbohydrate on appetite, food intake and gastric emptying with and without the influence of orosensory factors, a group of nine healthy, fasted male subjects took part in two separate paired experiments involving high-fat and high-carbohydrate radiolabelled soup preloads. In the first experiment subjects received direct intragastric isocaloric infusions of either a high-fat tomato soup or a high-carbohydrate tomato soup (400 kcal in 425 mL) over 15 min, on two occasions. In the second paired experiment subjects ingested the same high-fat and high-carbohydrate soup over 15 min. In both experiments ratings of hunger and fullness were recorded over a period of 135 min and gastric emptying was measured by scintigraphy. Food intake was evaluated from a test meal (yoghurt drink) given 2 h after the end of the soup infusion/ingestion. When soup was administered intragastrically (Experiment 1) both the high-fat and high-carbohydrate soup preloads suppressed appetite ratings from baseline, but there were no differences in ratings of hunger and fullness, food intake from the test meal, or rate of gastric emptying between the two soup preloads. When the same soups were ingested (Experiment 2), the high-fat soup suppressed hunger, induced fullness, and slowed gastric emptying more than the high-carbohydrate soup and also tended to be more effective at reducing energy intake from the test meal. The results of these studies demonstrate that orosensory stimulation plays an important role in appetite regulation, and also indicate that subtle differences in orosensory stimulation produced by particular nutrients may profoundly influence appetite and gastrointestinal responses.

PMID: 10477062 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-13-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by the doc
bile is not released into the stomach but into the small intestine. Its purpose is to solvate oils (much in the way that a detergent would) to allow them to absorbed by the body.


So technical, Doc. :)

It's called the duodenum right? (The small intestine).

At the time i couldn't recall so just put 'stomach' caused it seemed close enough, lol.

the doc
09-13-2002, 06:03 PM
well the duodenum is just a portion of the small intestine. I believe that refers to the first few feet, where a significant amount of digestive enzymes are released and protein breakdown occurs (Carbohydrates are significantly digested by this point; fat is actually not broken down but absorbed by mixing with the released bile)

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-13-2002, 06:03 PM
Neurogastroenterol Motil 1999 Feb;11(1):27-36 Related Articles, Links


Fat delays emptying but increases forward and backward antral flow as assessed by flow-sensitive magnetic resonance imaging.

Boulby P, Moore R, Gowland P, Spiller RC.

The Magnetic Resonance Centre, Department of Physics, Nottingham, UK.

Flow has been assessed in the gastric antrum using a velocity-sensitive version of the high-speed magnetic resonance imaging technique, echo planar imaging (EPI). Eight healthy volunteers attended fasted on three separate days and consumed 800 mL of either a 5% glucose (0.2 kcal mL-1), 10% glucose (0.4 kcal mL-1) or an isotonic mixed nutrient meal, Fresubin (1 kcal mL-1, 27.2 g fat). Gastric volumes were obtained at 10-min intervals for 1 h. Flow measurements were performed on a single slice through the antropyloric region 5 and 35 min after meal ingestion. Gastric volumes at 45 min were inversely proportional to the calorie density of the meal with (mean +/- SEM) 89 +/- 10%* of the Fresubin, 64 +/- 5%* of the 10% glucose and 41 +/- 5% of the 5% glucose remaining (*P < 0.005 vs 5% glucose). Substantial forward and backward antral flow was observed after all three meals in the initial 5-min imaging period. AT 35 min flow activity was significantly greater after both the high-calorie meals relative to the 5% meal (total number of flow events: Fresubin = 6.6 +/- 1.7,[symbol: see text] 10% glucose = 9.9 +/- 2.2, [symbol: see text] 5% glucose = 2.5 +/- 0.9,[symbol: see text] P < 0.03,[symbol: see text] P < 0.007 vs 5% glucose, n = 8). Peak forward velocities for the initial phase of emptying tended to be greater for the rapidly emptying 5% meal (5.9 +/- 0.8 cm-1) compared with the Fresubin (3.3 +/- 0.6 cm-1, P < 0.069, n = 8) and the 10% glucose (2.9 +/- 1.0 cm-1, P < 0.068, n = 8) meals. In spite of delayed gastric emptying, high-calorie meals were associated with substantial to and fro movements which may be important for meal tritruration and fat emulsification.

PMID: 10087532 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-13-2002, 06:07 PM
I'm unsure how valid this abstract is, considering the topic, cause i'm not entirely sure what cisapride is or how it would effect (or to what extent) GI emptying. I just stumbled on it so thought i'd share.

Dig Dis Sci 1991 Sep;36(9):1259-65 Related Articles, Links


Slow gastric emptying induced by high fat content of meal accelerated by cisapride administered rectally.

Stacher G, Granser GV, Bergmann H, Kugi A, Stacher-Janotta G, Hobart J.

Department of Psychiatry, Ludwig Boltzmann Institute of Nuclear Medicine, Vienna, Austria.

The evaluation of agents potentially accelerating gastric emptying in gastric stasis syndromes is time-consuming. Since a previous study showed that emptying is slowed after antecedent fat ingestion and intravenous cisapride abolishes this effect, we investigated whether emptying delayed by fat incorporated into a meal is reversed by cisapride and thus could serve as a model for such evaluations. Twelve healthy males received, under double-blind conditions, 30 mg cisapride rectally or placebo, and 3 hr thereafter a semisolid meal of low (9.2 g) or high (37.9 g) fat content. The sequence of combinations placebo/low-fat meal, placebo/high-fat meal, and cisapride/high-fat meal was randomized. Gastric emptying and antral motility were recorded scintigraphically. After placebo/high-fat, emptying was significantly slower (P less than 0.05) than after placebo/low-fat. After cisapride/high-fat, emptying was significantly faster (P less than 0.01) than after placebo/high-fat and similar to that after placebo/low-fat. Antral motility was little affected. The slow emptying of a high-fat meal thus seems a suitable model for the evaluation of prokinetic drug effects.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 1893810 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-13-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by the doc
well the duodenum is just a portion of the small intestine. I believe that refers to the first few feet, where a significant amount of digestive enzymes are released and protein breakdown occurs (Carbohydrates are significantly digested by this point; fat is actually not broken down but absorbed by mixing with the released bile)

Ah, some more A-level Bio is coming back to me now.

Why do i have Ithillium in my head? Or is it Illium? Is this the remainder of the small intestine?

EDIT: Just remembered it's Ilium.


SECOND EDIT: Just remember how to spell it properly haha: 'ileum'

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-13-2002, 06:10 PM
Found a good one:

Gut 1994 Feb;35(2):186-90 Related Articles, Links


Superior mesenteric artery blood flow and gastric emptying in humans and the differential effects of high fat and high carbohydrate meals.

Sidery MB, Macdonald IA, Blackshaw PE.

Department of Physiology, University of Nottingham Medical School.

This study was designed to determine if the differential effect of high fat and high carbohydrate meals on mesenteric blood flow is a result of changed gastric emptying rate. Eight healthy men were studied twice. Superior mesenteric artery blood flow (Doppler ultrasound) was measured before and after a 2.5 MJ meal (either 74% of the energy as carbohydrate or 71% as fat). Emptying of meals was followed by gamma-scintigraphy. The pattern of the superior mesenteric artery blood flow response was different after the two meals (interaction effect p < 0.001 analysis of variance), with a far more sustained response after fat. The time by which half the meal had emptied (t50) was also significantly greater after fat (p < 0.02). Superior mesenteric artery blood flow corresponding to t50 was 449 ml/min after carbohydrate and 592 ml/min after fat. There was a significant curvilinear relation between the superior mesenteric artery blood flow response and gastric emptying after carbohydrate (r2 = 0.94) and no relation at all after fat. This study confirms the finding that ingestion of meals with a high fat content slows gastric emptying compared with meals with a high carbohydrate content in healthy volunteers. A more sustained mesenteric hyperaemia was also recorded after the fat meal compared with the carbohydrate meal. The relation, however, between the volume of meal remaining in the stomach and the mesenteric response was considerably different after the two meals. Further study is required to elucidate the mechanism behind the vascular responses recorded in the mesenteric bed after food in humans.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 8307468 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

DcK
09-13-2002, 06:57 PM
Thanks for the references Chicken Daddy! I wasn't trying to call anyone out or anything.. this is just been a topic I've been curious about and wanted to find out some more info...

Thanks again!

Blood&Iron
09-13-2002, 07:08 PM
Interesting thread, with some theorizing from Lyle McDonald(with a reference) as to why mixing flax into a shake might not quite work the way one would expect:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Lyle+McDonald+flax+column+group:misc.fitness.weights&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=39296439.37786E4F%40onr.com&rnum=1

DcK
09-13-2002, 07:42 PM
Perfect reference Blood&Iron, that's exactly the reference I'm been looking for... for weeks when I first heard PwB at Elite talk about this concept!

Thanks a million, damn, that's awesome!

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-14-2002, 06:08 AM
I actually found that abstract (and the other one he is refrring to, i think) last night when i was doing my scans.

Incidentally, the satiety signal he's referring to is CCK.

The delay is from stomach to head and is the reason why you can stuff yourself silly when you eat before you realise you are, in fact, in immese pain.

LAM
09-14-2002, 01:00 PM
I've been telling people for years that adding flax to protein drinks didn't slow absorption and it was based on "theroy" and a bad one at that...

good find B&I....:D

Jilla82
11-06-2002, 11:12 PM
has anyone tried that Time Release stuff? or read any new info? its only $24.99 now