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Silverback
09-23-2002, 12:57 PM
if i make up some protein mrp's myslef and keep them in a flask/ container and drink throughout the day?

the reason is im back at university now and food is not readily available, and what is, would be nowhere to be seen on a bodybuilders everyday nutrition diary.

Ive heard rumours that the protein will lose its nutrients over time? i know that heating protein powder will denture it, but im unsure of the first.

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-23-2002, 01:05 PM
That's fine.

duque21
09-23-2002, 02:20 PM
You can not denature proteins. They do not lose there properties when heated.

Silverback
09-23-2002, 03:09 PM
sweet :) i am now happy

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-24-2002, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by duque21
You can not denature proteins. They do not lose there properties when heated.

You sure about that?

galileo
09-24-2002, 06:37 AM
I hope he's right. I sometimes like to throw some protein in mah oatmeal. PROATMEAL. Get it? Proatmeal? Hee hee hee...man, that's funny stuff. Proatmeal...geez. Hey, I'm here til thursday! Tip your waitstaff.

GonePostal
09-24-2002, 07:06 AM
<quote>You can not denature proteins. They do not lose there properties when heated. </quote>

You can denature protiens if they are heated above 40 degree's celcius (yeah I'm from Canada). But that does nothing really to the chemical properties of protiends. It just changes the structure that they are in. To my knowledge this has no effect on absorbtion or the effectiveness of the protien. If anything it improves it since it is in a more readily availible form (just a guess).

GuitarPlayer
09-24-2002, 07:08 AM
usually proteins are broken down by peptidase into amino acids anyway in the small intestine. denaturing might shorten the process, if anything. the constituent amino acids won't change.

FuriousFerret
09-24-2002, 07:52 AM
Proatmeal? damn, I need to call the copyright office for that money maker :)

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-24-2002, 09:57 AM
Protein denaturation is why pink chicken breast goes white, why red steak goes brown and why red(ish) tuna goes brown(y).

etc

galileo
09-24-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by FuriousFerret
Proatmeal? damn, I need to call the copyright office for that money maker :)

http://www.cbass.com/PROD06.HTM

:(

steveo
09-24-2002, 11:00 AM
What I do when I go to class. I take two- three meal replacement bars and eat them with water. It's cleaner and faster. But I have had to take a shake bottle at times once I was sitting on a bench and I busted out my shake bottle and I began to shake it and the damn top on the sipping nossle came off and pink Myoplex everywhere :eek: it was pretty embarrasing. But you know what they say "no pain, no gain" or something:thumbup:

Just some girl
09-24-2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by duque21
You can not denature proteins.

lol. oh really? maybe you should take a bio class.

In response to the real question/discussion...a part of the process of protein digestion is the denaturing of protein (which happens by either exposure to heat or exposure to acid, like the acid in your stomach). I think someone already said something along these lines, though. :)

galileo
09-24-2002, 12:52 PM
Man, duque never catches a break! :)

duque21
09-25-2002, 01:38 PM
Dietary proteins, do not lose there properties when heated.....
Look it up....

Just some girl
09-25-2002, 01:55 PM
and how, pray tell, are dietary proteins a distinct and separate thing from "regular" proteins? all proteins (enzymes included, since they are a subcategory of proteins) share basic characteristics. this is part of what makes them the same class of molecule. and one of these properties is that, upon heating (or exposure to acid), proteins begin to lose their folded qualities and become what is called denatured. In other words, proteins go from quaternary, tertiary, or secondary conformation and assume their primary structure, which is basically just a long chain of amino acids with no folding.

But if you dont believe me, and I doubt you will because you obviously know everything, then I don't know why I'm even bothering to argue with you.

Oh, and by the way, if it makes you feel better, I did look it up. And found exactly what I knew I would find, what any kid who has paid even one ounce of attention in intro bio knows...

"Unraveling a protein's shape often destroys its normal functioning, such that it loses biological activity."
...followed by...
"The heat produced during cooking likewise denatures proteins."
...none of which really matters though, if your protein gets denatured before you eat it because...
"Recall that we need proteins in the diet to supply essential amino acids--not the active proteins themselves."

(all quotes from Contemporary Nutrition by Wardlaw. Though I could find the exact same information in a million other sources out there.)

You were saying, duque?

Silverback
09-25-2002, 02:18 PM
just some girl, gotta admire that post it was not only very informative put it argued your point to a T, i decided to look it up myslelf and would have to agree with you.:)

Just some girl
09-25-2002, 02:51 PM
thanks, Big-Ron. I'm glad I could help. :)

duque21
09-25-2002, 10:53 PM
Maybe I mistated what I was trying to say when I posted my first post. The point I was trying to make is that by heating the proteins, yes they "denature" if you want to be extremely literal, but the idea we were discussing is if they loose there proerties.

No, when proteins are heated, they do not lose their proerties in the respect to the way we want our bodies to utilize the compound.

And I said "dietary proteins" because I was not sure about other proteins, that could be more fragile.

So in your attempt to look so smart, you made the same point as me, you just said it differently.

Hey every one give a COOKIE to "just some girl"

Do you feel a lil bit better now? Your so smart, wow i feel so inferior.

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-26-2002, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by duque21
So in your attempt to look so smart, you made the same point as me, you just said it differently.


Not quite.

Proteins have properties such as structure. When you heat the protein past a certain temperature, the protein denatures and the structure changes. Thus, the properties change.

The structure matters little to the body because the body breaks it down anyway, so the amino acids that comprise the protein can pass through the intestinal wall and the aminos can be used for protein synthesis. So because of this reason, you can cook protein sources like chicken and denature the protein but still have a worth while source of food, because all the body needs are the amino acids (which are still there, just in a different pattern [for the sake of simplicity]).


So let's look at your original 'point':


You can not denature proteins.

Yes, you can.

They do not lose there properties when heated.

Yes, they do.




So, just some girl can have her cookie for being a clever little bunny.

galileo
09-26-2002, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Thus, the properties change.

Yes, but what about the proerties?

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-26-2002, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by galileo


Yes, but what about the proerties?

I have no idea what 'proerties' are, you smart ass.

galileo
09-26-2002, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by duque21
The point I was trying to make is that by heating the proteins, yes they "denature" if you want to be extremely literal, but the idea we were discussing is if they loose there proerties.

Here duque speaks of these fabled proerties, which peaks my interest.


Originally posted by duque21
No, when proteins are heated, they do not lose their proerties in the respect to the way we want our bodies to utilize the compound.

The mystery begins to unravel... I learn that proteins have proerties, but they aren't lost when heated.

I did a google search on protein proerties (http://www.google.com/search?q=proerties+protein) and it returned 64 links! I am sooo much closer to harnessing the powers of the universe!

Just some girl
09-26-2002, 07:23 AM
lol. thanks for handling that one, Chicken Daddy.

oh yea, and i like your style, galileo. :)

*eats cookie* :p

Reinier
09-26-2002, 07:31 AM
any protein in that cookie is going to be denaturalised cuz it was baked

Just some girl
09-26-2002, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Reinier
any protein in that cookie is going to be denaturalised cuz it was baked

oh the humanity!! ...to deny a poor, innocent protein of its right to citizenship in the great land of Cookie! :p

(sorry. its early, im tired, and a tad punchy. ;))

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-26-2002, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Reinier
any protein in that cookie is going to be denaturalised cuz it was baked


If you want to learn something and have time to kill, look up 'glycation'.

duque21
09-26-2002, 12:10 PM
Chicken Daddy you only quoted half of what I said and took it out of context.

I said they do not loose there properties "in the respect to the way we want our bodies to utilize the compound."

So lets look at this in the context that it's suppose to be in.......if I understand you correctly, your saying that meats, and any other source of proteins, totaly have no value whats so ever if there cooked??????????

Wow.....lets hope.....well lets hope that they still have the ability to be metabolized into Aminos, because what your telling me is that they don't if they are denatured.

duque21
09-26-2002, 12:12 PM
Oh and by the way......who do you hate more, me or "TreeTrunks"
we both think that we are "the single most hated wbb member"

Just some girl
09-26-2002, 12:21 PM
duque, give up. please. you are really just making yourself look like you know nothing. seriously. just back slowly away from the thread.

and for the love of god, man...THERE is a place. As in, "Look, someone who knows something about proteins is standing over there."

galileo
09-26-2002, 12:22 PM
I think it's you, duque.

galileo
09-26-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Just some girl
and for the love of god, man...THERE is a place. As in, "Look, someone who knows something about proteins is standing over there."

And apparently he thinks Chiggs owns some saying and some telling.


.......if I understand you correctly, your saying that meats


because what your telling me

You are = You're
A posession of someone's = your

Just some girl
09-26-2002, 12:36 PM
yeah grammar police. ;) :D

duque21
09-26-2002, 03:15 PM
wow....it turned from wannabebig to wannabeanenglishteacher

duque21
09-26-2002, 03:17 PM
So.....just some girl......what in my last thread is wrong?

What do you not agree with????

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-26-2002, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by duque21
if I understand you correctly, your saying that meats, and any other source of proteins, totaly have no value whats so ever if there cooked??????????

Wow.....lets hope.....well lets hope that they still have the ability to be metabolized into Aminos, because what your telling me is that they don't if they are denatured.



By me:

The structure matters little to the body because the body breaks it down anyway, so the amino acids that comprise the protein can pass through the intestinal wall and the aminos can be used for protein synthesis. So because of this reason, you can cook protein sources like chicken and denature the protein but still have a worth while source of food, because all the body needs are the amino acids (which are still there, just in a different pattern [for the sake of simplicity]).

PowerManDL
09-26-2002, 04:09 PM
Looks like this needs to be reading comprehension 101 instead of grammar.

Craig James
09-26-2002, 04:23 PM
I just can't express how truely entertaining some of these threads are... And here I thought I was just going to read about some old boring 'proteins'...

duque21
09-26-2002, 06:10 PM
So chicken daddy.........so we stand on the same ground then.

All I was trying to say from the get go, is that it does not matter if they lose their structural properties, cause your body is going to do the same thing any ways. Maybe I worded it a lil funky but I think that the message was clear.

Just some girl
09-26-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by duque21
You can not denature proteins. They do not lose there properties when heated.


Originally posted by duque21
All I was trying to say from the get go, is that it does not matter if they lose their structural properties, cause your body is going to do the same thing any ways. Maybe I worded it a lil funky but I think that the message was clear.

It's funny how these two statements are saying completely opposite things. First you say absolutely that you cannot denature proteins. They do not lose their properties when heated. And then you decide that, no no no, of course they lose their structural properties when heated, but it doesn't matter anyway.

No one ever tried to say that it mattered a rats a$$ if a protein was denatured before digestion began in the body. Wait, I'm assuming things here. Let's back it up. I'd better make it clear so that you can know what you need to claim you've been saying all along.

Proteins exist in all living things, many of which we eat. They are tightly folded into 3-dimensional formations (think like a string all balled up) and can even associate with other proteins (think like two or more strings all balled up together). These "balls" are not perfectly round, and have indentations and grooves, some of which are spots where other molecules can latch onto during chemical reactions (think 3-D puzzle pieces fitting together). These are active proteins. They can participate in reactions and make the processes that need to happen inside living things work.

Now, lets say you expose these balls of string to heat or acid. They begin to lose their ball shape and return to the straight line that they started out as. This is called the denatured state of a protein (also known as the primary structure or conformation of proteins). Once the protein is straighted out like this, it no longer has its little grooves and indentations, so no more chemical reactions can happen. Thus it is biologically inactive. Looking closer at our "piece of string" we can see that it is actually made of many individual smaller molecules called amino acids, one right after the other. While our protein is denatured, it is still intact.

So we know that our bodies use the proteins that we eat. But our body has needs for very specific proteins, and it must build them on its own. So what our body, clever little devil that it is, does, is it takes these straightened out strings of amino acids, breaks them down into individual amino acids, and uses those as the building blocks for constructing its own unique proteins. Then it folds them back up into balls, and VOILA! You have biologically active proteins, made by the human body from the proteins that you supply it with by eating.

The human body is quite good at this process, and can take a fully intact, biologically active protein (think balled up string) and during the process of digestion, not only denature it (with the acid in your stomach) but also pull apart the amino acids and reconfigure them. BUT it doesn't have to. Because the end result of this whole process is the individual amino acids, if you happen to eat proteins that have already been denatured (think straightened string) or *GASP* already separated into the individual amino acids, it shouldn't make a hill of beans difference because your body's end goal anyway is the individual amino acids.

So there. There is the whole process. I'm hoping that was clear enough.

So to return to your question to me, duque, you asked me what was wrong in your last post. Let's have a look, shall we?


Originally posted by duque21
I said they do not loose there properties "in the respect to the way we want our bodies to utilize the compound."

So lets look at this in the context that it's suppose to be in.......if I understand you correctly, your saying that meats, and any other source of proteins, totaly have no value whats so ever if there cooked??????????

What was wrong was that the properties of proteins has absolutely nothing to do with how our bodies use them. Our bodies could give a rats a$$ what the property of that protein that you gave it was. All the human body is going to do with said protein is break it down to its smallest usable unit (amino acid) and use it to synthesize whatever proteins the body needs.

And the other thing I have a problem with in your post is that no one ever said that cooking meats or other foods makes the protein in that food unusable by the human body. But thats probably because everyone else who posted in this thread, except you, already knew all of the facts I discussed in my mini lesson above.

Finally, what I find wrong with all of your posts is the fact that, as I demonstrated at the start of this post, you have changed your story every single time you tossed your two cents into this discussion. If you knew what you were talking about from the start, you wouldn't constantly have to be qualifying your earlier words, trying to engineer them to sound closer to the known facts of biology.

In summation, I just hate stupidity, especially when that stupidity is trying to pawn itself off on everyone as authoritative knowledge.

duque21
09-26-2002, 11:08 PM
I am glad I took the time to read that.....WOW!

Oh boy....I feel some what more "enlightened" as Paul would say.

You might want to print that story out, it will be a good bed time story for your kids some day. Hey it almost put me to sleep.

I can sit here all day and read your assumptions about me....But when you when you refer to me as a form of stupidity, well thats not nice, nor do I take it lightly. You might want to take a look at your self and "qualify" your ability to judge some other as stupid, seeing as though....well like Democritus said "the toung can not taste its self" .....the stupid can not point out the stupid. You should realy adress your own downfalls instead of obsessing over those of others.

Shao-LiN
09-26-2002, 11:48 PM
So would it matter if someone else said it?

The_Chicken_Daddy
09-27-2002, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by duque21
I am glad I took the time to read that.....WOW!

Oh boy....I feel some what more "enlightened" as Paul would say.

You might want to print that story out, it will be a good bed time story for your kids some day. Hey it almost put me to sleep.

I can sit here all day and read your assumptions about me....But when you when you refer to me as a form of stupidity, well thats not nice, nor do I take it lightly. You might want to take a look at your self and "qualify" your ability to judge some other as stupid, seeing as though....well like Democritus said "the toung can not taste its self" .....the stupid can not point out the stupid. You should realy adress your own downfalls instead of obsessing over those of others.

A reply that is just trying to be clever and put down JSG.

Of course here there is no reference to the topic at hand, and so i'm going to lock this thread cause it seems to be going places it shouldn't.

Sorry if you'd like to get one last dig in before it's closed, but if you really want to go that direction, take it to PM.

Alex.V
09-27-2002, 06:48 AM
This was a GREAT thread.