View Full Version : we've been WRONG all along

09-24-2002, 01:20 PM
i just had a long conversation with my nutrition professor after class and she explained to me how bb's dont need as much protein as we think. all we need is 1.5g per kg of bw. i wweigh 207lbs and we calcualted it out and i only need about 141g of protein a day. now this is for bb's not just the avg. person. just seomthing i thought you guys wiould liek to konw.

09-24-2002, 01:25 PM
There are widely varying opinions, some backed up by scientific studies and some not backed up, that claim various amounts of protein are the 'right amount'.

My opinion? Do your homework but modify your own protein intake based on your body's response. Find your own optimal level through controlled experimentation.

09-24-2002, 01:27 PM
Its a pretty controversial subject, but i go with LBM instead of BW. Reasoning behind that is that your fat doesn't need protein.

Usually i don't even use that Xg of protein per lb of BW/LBM. Total cals and your ratios will give you all the info you need.

09-24-2002, 01:38 PM
I worry about how many calories I need not how much of a particular macronutrient is my "minimum."

09-24-2002, 01:41 PM
well those articles often go up to 1.8g per kg bodyweight.

but aiming for one allows lower quality protien to be used.

09-24-2002, 01:47 PM
i always shoot high in protein because you never know where a shortfall may occur, i mean sometimes you may not digest the protein properly or by the process of thermogenics protein burns more calories. So i mix this with finding what helps put mass on, and over the past five months ive been gaining 2lbs per week, a high % of muscle mass.

09-24-2002, 01:53 PM
I'd only listen to the health teacher if he could bench more then me.

09-24-2002, 01:54 PM
well shes actually a nutrition professor and why would she not know what shes talking bout.

09-24-2002, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by massa
well shes actually a nutrition professor and why would she not know what shes talking bout.

Well throughout my life, do you know how many teachers/doctors/personal trainers/dieticians/nutritionists/gym teachers, i met who actually knew what they were talking about in terms of dieting for athletes?

zilch, zip, zero, nil.

Remember, doctors/nutritionists etc made up the Food Pyramid, that should tell you something...

09-24-2002, 02:30 PM
yeah and the food pyramid is a decent guide for the avg person to be healthy. not a bb right?

Paul Stagg
09-24-2002, 02:41 PM
Maybe - maybe not.

I think protein needs may have been overstated, but the evidence either way isn't overwhelming. I like Cal's answer.

Plus, if you can afford it, more protein than you need won't hurt you.

09-24-2002, 03:23 PM
My Philosophy: WHAT WORKS WORKS, CAN'T ARGUE WITH RESULTS. If that is what works best for you, great, if you need more, great, if you need less, great. Whatever it takes to get the job done!

09-24-2002, 04:44 PM
The food pyramid is a travesty in my humble opinion.

And the one time I did work with a nutritionist while trying to gain lean mass she recommended a 60-70% carb based diet. Ridiculous.

I like Cal's answer as well. Experiment.

09-24-2002, 04:53 PM
The majority of people in her position are paid to parrot back the same sh*t that's been spewed all over them. The food pyramid is a joke, the USRDA for most vitamins is hilarious, and most doctors and nutrition teachers don't know what the hell they're tlaking about.

I thought this thread was a joke.

09-24-2002, 04:59 PM
The study done by Peter Lemon et al (at least i think that's his name) involved 1.2g, 1.4g and 1.8g per Kg of bw.

If i remember correctly, it said that 1.8g/kg was best and there was no point going any higher.

1.8g/kg = 1.8g/2.2lbs

That roughly equates to 0.8-0.9g per lb.

Round it up nicely to 1g/lb.

I personally get about this much whether cutting or bulking, but it also depends on the type of diet. for example, a 200lb BBer on an isocaloric gaining phase using 18 kcals/lb would eat 3600kcals a day, with 1188kcals coming from protein. That's 297g of protein a day. Does he need the additional 97g protein?
Who's to say? (although you'll get a lot from more experienced lifters saying more protein, closer to 1.5-2g/lb does help).

Does he need the extra 388kcals that come from this 97g of protein?

Well, if he wants to gain more, the difference of ~400kcals can be quite noticeable and can possibly lead to weight plateau, so i'll say yes.

Whether the extra protein shows further results itself is debatable, but no doubt, the additonal calories from the macronutrient do play a role in further growth.

At the end of the day, if you need calories to add mass, it can be more feasible to get them from additional protein as well as carbs and fat.

09-24-2002, 05:21 PM
Hey, I still think that high protein is the way to go I would much rather get the majority of my calories from proteins than any other source. I dont see how that could be a problem either if I am getting sufficient carbs and fats to support my daily lifting routine.

09-24-2002, 06:30 PM
I only crank my protein intake when I'm cutting cals.

Otherwise, I do the best I can during my 3 or 4 meals a day, and I don't lose any sleep over it.

It may not be optimal, but it's still more than double the 50 grams a day on the back of a nutrition label, and triple the amount consumed by the 2000 other people in my workplace.

Not very scientific sampling, to be sure, but at some point, I want to be practical. Eating flax seed oil and protein shakes more than once a day doesn't qualify as practical for me personally.

It's not a lifestyle I care to adhere to.

To the orginal poster, 'YES', I think in time we'll find out that even a body builder's requirement during a maintenance & bulking phase is less than 2gm/lb.

It's just a hunch.

Again, I do agree that protein needs to be sky-high while cutting cals.

The trick is going to be finding someone to fund a study like this. I highly doubt any of the supplement providers are going to fund a study that proves you only need .75g/lb, for instance.

They'd be shooting themselves in the foot, right?

09-24-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Majestic
Again, I do agree that protein needs to be sky-high while cutting cals.

And again i must say, upping protein 'sky-high' when cutting cals will not do much. In the end your body (genetics) will decide how much fat/muscle you lose while in a caloric deficit. The 'sky-high' protein will only marginally affect the fat:muscle loss ratio and can only be helpful when you are desperately trying to conserve as much muscle as possible while trying to get into contest shape (3-5% or so i've heard).

09-24-2002, 08:11 PM
I dont pay attention to how muc hprotein I"m taking in compared to my bw. I just pay attention to how much I'm taking in compared to the other macronutreints.

I'm sure supp companies are part of the reason why BBer's think(or tell us) we need so much protein.

09-24-2002, 09:36 PM
Just because they are a professional does not mean they know what they are talking about... in fact the majority of local/family doctors, nutritionists, etc... (people you think would not be ignorant) do not have a clue..... it makes me wonder what in the world is going on in grad schools these days (maybe its just because I'm in the rural south :) ).

For instance, I had a friend quote a "genius biology professor" who stated that men that wear briefs instead of boxers will have lower sperm counts and lower fertility rates becuase briefs hold the testicles closer to the body and therefore raise the temp causing the ill affects.... I immediately knew that was totally bogus (yes temperature greatly affects sperm production, but briefs versus boxers is negligable)... Sure enough the latest article from the Journal of Urology (don't remember the specific reference..) addresses this issue in depth and concludes that briefs vs. boxers are virtually the same in terms of their effect on sperm production...

Just goes to show that a good number of people, even professionals who the majority of the public often believe... ARE WRONG....

In regards to the protein debate... there are more than enough threads and studies to spend days reading... do a search on the net (and here)...

09-24-2002, 10:08 PM
My opinion? Do your homework but modify your own protein intake based on your body's response. Find your own optimal level through controlled experimentation

I agree.

09-24-2002, 10:13 PM
if u think the food pyramid is whack look at the BMI index chart

09-25-2002, 03:50 AM
I am a Lecturer/professor (industrial design)and although expert in some things I am definitely not right all the time, just look at some of my posts. So I wouldn't believe all you are told, some guys teaching in universities are so out of touch that they are still quoting stuff from 30 yrs ago, that was out of date then.

1g/lb seems to be ok in my laymans opinion.

09-26-2002, 03:35 PM
peter lemon has done lots of studies overall on protien intakes in athletes. his info seems quite reliable.

09-26-2002, 06:19 PM
According to my understanding of biology of the body (I'm still pretty new to this but have a solid background in general science) the main problem is not the amount of protien intake. The true problem is being able to deliver the protien to needed area's at the right time. If in some magic medical procedure we could tell when and how much protien the body needed and we had means to deliver said protien our daily intake could be drastically decreased.
But as of yet we do not have such a procedure. So the best we can do is have the body continuously flushed with AA's so if at anytime in the day the body decides (when ever this) to start building muscle it has a readily availible supply of AA's. This maximizes the time your are in an anabolic state and a positive nitrogen balance (therefore gaining mass).
This is why bb's graze through out the day and eat relatively high protien diet. The optimum value of protien has yet to be nailed down but for a recreational bb my tendency is to go with the 1g/lb. For someone that is seriously bb (competition oriented) I would not assume that I would be in a place to tell them what to do =) .

Most important DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

09-26-2002, 06:38 PM
ya know postal ive never thought of that and i think thats an excellent point

09-27-2002, 03:20 AM
It is an excellent point, yes.

We don't know for sure so we just cover all our bases.

09-27-2002, 08:06 AM
I never understood why most bb's say 1gm of protein per pound of bodyweight, and why not just 1 gm per lbm? Why do most go with the bodyweight figure?


09-27-2002, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Raildog
I never understood why most bb's say 1gm of protein per pound of bodyweight, and why not just 1 gm per lbm? Why do most go with the bodyweight figure?


It's easier :)

09-27-2002, 08:23 AM
I think it has to do something with the increased protien demands associated with more mass (being lbm or not). Protiens are not only used to grow and maintain muscles. Much of it is used as a functional part of body. (enzymes and tran-protiens in our cell membranes) So as we have more mass it requires more protiens. You have to service your daily requirement of protien before you can use the surpluss to increase lbm. That would be my opinion on this

09-27-2002, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by Raildog
I never understood why most bb's say 1gm of protein per pound of bodyweight, and why not just 1 gm per lbm? Why do most go with the bodyweight figure?


200 pound person. 20% BF.

1 gram of protein.

1 gram per pound body weight would be = 200*1 = 200 gram protien.

1 gram per pound LBM would be = 200*0.8(160 POUNDS LEAN BODY MASS) = 160 gram protein.

that would be a difference of 40 gram protien per day. this could soon add up over a peroid of time to mean the difference of a couple of pounds.

Plus fat does require a bit of energy just to sit there.

09-27-2002, 04:42 PM
Yeah you are right if you use the kg of the MP3 with the CTN2 RMP you might just get some res on the dl if you catch my drif.

Use less abreviations. You are a body builder, you have time to spare.