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View Full Version : "Perfect Balance" and still obtain goals...



ericg
10-01-2002, 09:09 AM
Hey all you WBB freaks.

Let me first give you a little background. In January of 2002 I weighed in at 210lbs and approx 25% bf. I started talking with Fran and Robboe on MSN a lot and they offered to help me with my diet. So that is where it all began. In the middle of Jan I started a strict diet. I was trying carb rotation, carb meals as the first meals of the day (and directly after lifting) and fat meals towards the end of the day. I would rotate the carb amounts as well, eat a higher amount of carbs on days 1-2, med carbs 3-4, then lower carbs 5-6. Over time we switched things up a bit (check out my journal if you want all the details). Long story short in the beginning of June I was at around 185lbs. Then **** hit the fan with some personal issues and went down to 180 and stopped lifting for a little while, strength dropped a bit. So now I am at 180lbs. There now that you are all fuken bored out of your minds I will get on with it....

Recently I ahve been eating clean for the most part. Sunday through Wednesday afternoons are perfect. Then comes ladies night at the local bar/club, then thirtsy Thursdays, out again Friday and Saturday. I have decided to cheat starting Friday eve/nights and Saturday only. FYI, I dont go over board with the drinking, usually have a bout 5 per night, then out to eat and all that good greasey stuff ya know.

Diet choices:

I am wondering (taking the above into consideration) what kind of diet will suit me. The diet that was set up by Fran and Rob kicked arse, but I didnt cheat often. I woldnt mind going back to that because it seemed to work well, just not sure how the Friday night/Saturday cheat will work.

Then there is NHE, 7 day below 20g carbs, then you have a refeed meal (or two) about every 4 days. The diet seems to work well for others, although I have never tried it. Wondering if I could incorporate my above 36 hour cheat into NHE somehow and still see results. One thing is that NHE says to eat lots of complex carbs, low protein, low fats during the refeed. I wouldnt really watch my food choices during this 36 hour period, wouldnt pig out either. So this got me thinking, wouldnt this just be a typical CKD then? hmmm.

Goal:

I am at 180lbs now, i say my bf is at about 16-18% (had it measured once with calipers a while back at 17%). So I would like to get down to about 160lbs, basically want to have a 6pak, be buff, look kisk ass nekked, ya know ;). I really dont want to get below 160 though, mental issues I guess. I would like to shoot for 1lb loss per week.

So is it possible for me to have this balance that I am looking for? Any thoughts on diet choices?

*hopes this all made sense*

thanks in advance

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-01-2002, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by ericg
[B]Hey all you WBB freaks.

Let me first give you a little background. In January of 2002 I weighed in at 210lbs and approx 25% bf. I started talking with Fran and Robboe on MSN a lot and they offered to help me with my diet. So that is where it all began. In the middle of Jan I started a strict diet. I was trying carb rotation, carb meals as the first meals of the day (and directly after lifting) and fat meals towards the end of the day. I would rotate the carb amounts as well, eat a higher amount of carbs on days 1-2, med carbs 3-4, then lower carbs 5-6. Over time we switched things up a bit (check out my journal if you want all the details). Long story short in the beginning of June I was at around 185lbs. Then **** hit the fan with some personal issues and went down to 180 and stopped lifting for a little while, strength dropped a bit. So now I am at 180lbs. There now that you are all fuken bored out of your minds I will get on with it....


ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........



Recently I ahve been eating clean for the most part. Sunday through Wednesday afternoons are perfect. Then comes ladies night at the local bar/club, then thirtsy Thursdays, out again Friday and Saturday. I have decided to cheat starting Friday eve/nights and Saturday only. FYI, I dont go over board with the drinking, usually have a bout 5 per night, then out to eat and all that good greasey stuff ya know.

It's very possible to achieve results with dieting down and yet still balance a social life on the weekends.



Diet choices:

I am wondering (taking the above into consideration) what kind of diet will suit me. The diet that was set up by Fran and Rob kicked arse, but I didnt cheat often. I woldnt mind going back to that because it seemed to work well, just not sure how the Friday night/Saturday cheat will work.

Then there is NHE, 7 day below 20g carbs, then you have a refeed meal (or two) about every 4 days. The diet seems to work well for others, although I have never tried it. Wondering if I could incorporate my above 36 hour cheat into NHE somehow and still see results. One thing is that NHE says to eat lots of complex carbs, low protein, low fats during the refeed. I wouldnt really watch my food choices during this 36 hour period, wouldnt pig out either. So this got me thinking, wouldnt this just be a typical CKD then? hmmm.

NHE isn't a ketogenic diet anyway, so not quite. But fundamentally, it'll be the same gist. I actually refeed on some chocolate during my cab ups on NHE lol (not that i'm advocating such a method, but it helps me psyhological quite a lot).

I think this would probably be your best bet. Stay below maintenance calories (start with calories at about 12kcals per lb of bw, so at 180 that's about 2160 mark and judge weight loss after one week. keep the loss in the 0.5-2lbs bracket). You'll prolly find the diet relatively easy to stick to. My hunger barely arises on NHE eating and when it does, it's like 30-45 minutes away from ym next scheduled meal.

The only concern i'd have for you is drinking two nights on the trott. Once a week is fair enough, but i'm not exactly sure how much it'd hinder your goals going twice weekly. Give it a try and see. it'll prolly work until you hit the 13-15% region, but after that it may cause problems. hell, depending on the individual it may cause problems earlier or not at all. Ideally, i'd tell you to only drink one night of the week and try and stick to water the other day. Can you not take your car and use the designated driver excuse as some sort of motivation to not drink?

ericg
10-01-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
NHE isn't a ketogenic diet anyway, so not quite. But fundamentally, it'll be the same gist. I actually refeed on some chocolate during my cab ups on NHE lol (not that i'm advocating such a method, but it helps me psyhological quite a lot).

Cool, gotta have the sweets!


I think this would probably be your best bet. Stay below maintenance calories (start with calories at about 12kcals per lb of bw, so at 180 that's about 2160 mark and judge weight loss after one week. keep the loss in the 0.5-2lbs bracket). You'll prolly find the diet relatively easy to stick to. My hunger barely arises on NHE eating and when it does, it's like 30-45 minutes away from ym next scheduled meal.

Sounds cool, bout the same amount of cals that I was on b4 i hit the wall. You think i could get away with 5.5 day of below 20g carbs to start instead of 7? Would it be long enough to make the shift?


The only concern i'd have for you is drinking two nights on the trott. Once a week is fair enough, but i'm not exactly sure how much it'd hinder your goals going twice weekly. Give it a try and see. it'll prolly work until you hit the 13-15% region, but after that it may cause problems. hell, depending on the individual it may cause problems earlier or not at all. Ideally, i'd tell you to only drink one night of the week and try and stick to water the other day. Can you not take your car and use the designated driver excuse as some sort of motivation to not drink?

Is the only concern about alcohol? I would still like to be "free" from diet for the 36 hours or so (friday eve and all day saturday), be able to go out and eat with friends and eat whatever. I am sure I would have NO problem keeping it at one night, the drinking anyways.

Yanick
10-01-2002, 10:19 AM
You can have a weekend re-feed, ala CKD. But you if you are going to be re-feeding formore than 24 hours, you should start counting out the carbs, as fat gain is very possible. You still need to keep the carbs high, protein moderate, and fat low (thats means no pizza, no regular ice cream, milk shakes etc. Sushi, italian, chinese[but watch what you get in the chinese food places] is a go). Its pretty easy actually, and feels just like a cheat day, except its not!

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-01-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by ericg


Sounds cool, bout the same amount of cals that I was on b4 i hit the wall. [b]You think i could get away with 5.5 day of below 20g carbs to start instead of 7? Would it be long enough to make the shift?

Well, you've had a bit of a break from dieting in general haven't you. Hopefully that will have reset your metabolism somewhat.

I think the duration of your last cut is what caused the wall-hitting.

A switch of diet every so often usually proves to be a more beneficial idea anyway.

The 5.5 metabolic shift will probably be enough. (It's actually usually 10 days in total, cause you have the 7 days below 20g and then you still have to wait another 3 days until your first carb load). Basically, all we're aiming for is to deplete you down a bit ASAP to ensure blood sugar swings (from muscle/liver glycogen that would be released when you move to using fat as your primary energy source) don't make you feel like shiat for too long.

we'll focus more on calorie restriction than the actual diet, providing your energy stays reasonable and your fat loss is kept at a reasonable pace.



Is the only concern about alcohol? I would still like to be "free" from diet for the 36 hours or so (friday eve and all day saturday), be able to go out and eat with friends and eat whatever. I am sure I would have NO problem keeping it at one night, the drinking anyways.

well, ultimately it's the alcohol, but also, when you say a "free day" i hope you'd still keep it under moderation. You said earlier you wouldn't pig out per se, so i just took your word for it as far as that is concerned. Whatever food chocies you go for during this time, still make a conscious effort to keeping fat as low as possible and carbs up. And don't make habbit of seriously stuffing yourself to the point of immobility or you probably will do more damage than good.

Shall we work on the ratios et all now?

ericg
10-01-2002, 10:38 AM
You can have a weekend re-feed, ala CKD. But you if you are going to be re-feeding formore than 24 hours, you should start counting out the carbs, as fat gain is very possible. You still need to keep the carbs high, protein moderate, and fat low (thats means no pizza, no regular ice cream, milk shakes etc. Sushi, italian, chinese[but watch what you get in the chinese food places] is a go). Its pretty easy actually, and feels just like a cheat day, except its not!

Yanick:

Thanks for the reply! I see what you are saying, kinda realized this already LOL, but just didnt want to admit it.


Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

Well, you've had a bit of a break from dieting in general haven't you. Hopefully that will have reset your metabolism somewhat.

I think the duration of your last cut is what caused the wall-hitting.

A switch of diet every so often usually proves to be a more beneficial idea anyway.

Well actually the diet was still working great, I should have said that someone ripped out my heart and it fuked with my head and made me lose track.


The 5.5 metabolic shift will probably be enough. (It's actually usually 10 days in total, cause you have the 7 days below 20g and then you still have to wait another 3 days until your first carb load). Basically, all we're aiming for is to deplete you down a bit ASAP to ensure blood sugar swings (from muscle/liver glycogen that would be released when you move to using fat as your primary energy source) don't make you feel like shiat for too long.

we'll focus more on calorie restriction than the actual diet, providing your energy stays reasonable and your fat loss is kept at a reasonable pace.

Cool


well, ultimately it's the alcohol, but also, when you say a "free day" i hope you'd still keep it under moderation. You said earlier you wouldn't pig out per se, so i just took your word for it as far as that is concerned. Whatever food chocies you go for during this time, still make a conscious effort to keeping fat as low as possible and carbs up. And don't make habbit of seriously stuffing yourself to the point of immobility or you probably will do more damage than good.

You were correct to assume. NHE says to keep the carbs complex/starchy for the "refeed" and fat/protein low for just 1-2 meals at the end of the day. So thats why I am concerned about the 36 hour period (will it shift me back over?) and the carb choices will not follow NHE exactly, allow more freedom, but I will not pig out at all.


Shall we work on the ratios et all now?

Ya, will plan on starting first thing Sunday morning. Ratios will be cake, food choices will prob be boring since I like easy to prep food. But I eat tuna and dry oats all the time so its no biggie.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-01-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by ericg


Well actually the diet was still working great, I should have said that someone ripped out my heart and it fuked with my head and made me lose track.


Well, there's always that, yes.


You were correct to assume. NHE says to keep the carbs complex/starchy for the "refeed" and fat/protein low for just 1-2 meals at the end of the day. So thats why I am concerned about the 36 hour period (will it shift me back over?)

Well, becoming a "fat burner" as such doesn't necessarily mean you're burning bodyfat. IMO It's a bit of a sly way of rob leading you to believe you are. Basically, being a 'fat burner' is more to do with you using fat as your prefered choice of fuel. But the reason it works for so many people is that most find it really quite difficult to eat "too much" fat, given the choices off at he allows for you to eat on the diet. I mean really, how much oil or butter can you eat at any one time without feeling repulsed? At the end of day, the hunger blutning aspect of using fat as a prefered choice of fuel means you eat less overall and lose the weight.

Giving things fancy titles and magic names just give people the psychological drive to stick to something.

Don't quote me on this, but i would doubt a 36 hour break from diet would screw you over.




Ya, will plan on starting first thing Sunday morning. Ratios will be cake, food choices will prob be boring since I like easy to prep food. But I eat tuna and dry oats all the time so its no biggie.

Well, the oats will have to go man.

Focus on nuts, oils and the like for fat sources. Keep carbs minimal.

ericg
10-01-2002, 11:05 AM
Well, the oats will have to go man.

Focus on nuts, oils and the like for fat sources. Keep carbs minimal.

Oh ya I know the oats have to go, was just referring to the "boring" food choices, oats and tuna isnt that exciting!

I think I should shy away from nuts for the 5.5 day shift, will stick with tuna, chicken, oils, low carb dressing, prob some mayo, cheese....you get the idea, just keep my carbs below 20 for that time. Will try to hammer something out tonight as far as a plan goes and post it tomorrow. Thanks man.

CBates
10-01-2002, 11:44 AM
If you're having refeed/cheat days for 36 hours, this technically wouldn't be a NHE diet per Rob then. I wouldn't see the point of doing the less than 20 carb thing for any amount of days.. You'd be better off just eating mostly protein and fats with 40-60 carbs a day on your non refeed/cheat days, and then go off the diet for the day in half. I've done a similar diet, and I had great progress on it. I just don't see the point in worrying about the less than 20 grams of carbs and wondering if you're going to go out of 'fat burner mode'.

ericg
10-01-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by CBates
If you're having refeed/cheat days for 36 hours, this technically wouldn't be a NHE diet per Rob then. I wouldn't see the point of doing the less than 20 carb thing for any amount of days.. You'd be better off just eating mostly protein and fats with 40-60 carbs a day on your non refeed/cheat days, and then go off the diet for the day in half. I've done a similar diet, and I had great progress on it. I just don't see the point in worrying about the less than 20 grams of carbs and wondering if you're going to go out of 'fat burner mode'.

Ya, i see what you are saying. The first week will be less the 20g carbs, then after the 36hr cheat, will be the 40-60g carbs. The 36 hour cheat does make this an edited version of the NHE, and will be on 40-60g carbs for 5.5 days instead of the 3-4 like NHE says. If that makes any sense!!

You said you had great progress on this kind of diet, care to expand a bit??

CBates
10-01-2002, 12:37 PM
OK, I see what you're saying now, the 36 hour refeed is only going to be around 60 carbs. When I first saw refeed, I was thinking 150+ carbs. But as far as the diet I had success in, I ate about 40-50 carbs a day, and protein and fat for the rest of my calories on Sunday-Thursday, on Friday and Saturday I ate pretty much whatever, but didn't go overboard. I did this diet for about 2 1/2 to 3 months and I could tell a world of difference in my body. I added a lot of muscle and ended up dropping a lot of body fat doing this. I'm currently doing the NHE diet to give it a try, I'm on day 7 of the less than 20 carbs a day (Thank God, I don't know how much longer I can go on like that). But the diet you are going on right now, is very similar to the diet I had really good success on. I'm currently at work right now, so I don't have access to my pictures, but I could show you a before and after shot of what the diet did for me when I get home.

ericg
10-01-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by CBates
OK, I see what you're saying now, the 36 hour refeed is only going to be around 60 carbs. When I first saw refeed, I was thinking 150+ carbs. But as far as the diet I had success in, I ate about 40-50 carbs a day, and protein and fat for the rest of my calories on Sunday-Thursday, on Friday and Saturday I ate pretty much whatever, but didn't go overboard. I did this diet for about 2 1/2 to 3 months and I could tell a world of difference in my body. I added a lot of muscle and ended up dropping a lot of body fat doing this. I'm currently doing the NHE diet to give it a try, I'm on day 7 of the less than 20 carbs a day (Thank God, I don't know how much longer I can go on like that). But the diet you are going on right now, is very similar to the diet I had really good success on. I'm currently at work right now, so I don't have access to my pictures, but I could show you a before and after shot of what the diet did for me when I get home.

You had it right the first time, LOL

Sarting this Sunday it will be below 20g of carbs per day, this will be true until Friday night into saturday night. At this time (about 36 hours fri night and all day sat) I will basically eat whatever I want without going overboard, just like you said! Then starting Sunday i will do the same all over again, except the carbs will be 40-60g for the week. Hopefully its clear now, sometimes I confuse myself.

So this seems like its exactly what you did before. I am looking through you entire journal right now, actually I may print it off!!

Oh and I may PM some questions to ya!! Watch out.

thanks man

ericg
10-01-2002, 01:41 PM
this should make things clear...

New Diet Plan

Starting this Sunday (10/6/02) I will be eating less than 20g of carbs for the next 5.5 days, until Friday late evening. From Friday evening until the end of Saturday will be whatever I want, but no pig outs, just freedom. Then the following Sunday (10/13/02) will be 40-60g of carbs total for the day for 5.5 days:

10/6 = less than 20g carbs, 135g mostly good fats, and 240g protein over 6 meals.

10/7 = less than 20g carbs, 135g mostly good fats, and 240g protein over 6 meals.

10/8 = less than 20g carbs, 135g mostly good fats, and 240g protein over 6 meals.

10/9 = less than 20g carbs, 135g mostly good fats, and 240g protein over 6 meals.

10/10 = less than 20g carbs, 135g mostly good fats, and 240g protein over 6 meals.

10/11 = mostly good fats and protein(little to no carbs) UNTIL 6PM. This will be about 4 meals worth. Then anything goes, in moderation, yes even beer.

10/12 = anything goes in moderation, yes even beer.

10/13 = 40-60g carbs,105g of mostly good fats, and 240g of protein. Follow this until Friday at 6PM, and it just repeats from week to week.

Calories will be around 2200 per day to start off with. Wont worry about calories during the 36hour cheat time (Friday evenings and all day Saturday). Although I wont be stuffin my face.

Will record my weight every friday morning.

Food plan should be up tomorrow, if I can get off my lazy arse tonight and pound the numbers out.

CBates
10-01-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by ericg


You had it right the first time, LOL

Sarting this Sunday it will be below 20g of carbs per day, this will be true until Friday night into saturday night. At this time (about 36 hours fri night and all day sat) I will basically eat whatever I want without going overboard, just like you said! Then starting Sunday i will do the same all over again, except the carbs will be 40-60g for the week. Hopefully its clear now, sometimes I confuse myself.

So this seems like its exactly what you did before. I am looking through you entire journal right now, actually I may print it off!!

Oh and I may PM some questions to ya!! Watch out.

thanks man


Damn, I need to start read what you write more carefully lol, actually I'm at work and not supposed to be on here, so I'm just browsing through the post instead of reading them carefully. That's fine, you can PM me with any questions about the diet I was on.

ericg
10-01-2002, 01:45 PM
Ya man, I just posted the plan on here the same time you responded! This should make it clear to anyone. Haha, I am online at work to, course I am very secluded in my office. Just as long as I am productive its all good.

Feel free to pick it apart, that goes for anyone

Jilla82
10-01-2002, 04:23 PM
just curious, what does 25% bf look like? is it fat, chubby, or what?

ericg
10-01-2002, 07:13 PM
I am not sure if i was 25% or not, just a guess.

When I went out people said I looked big, and always asked if I worked out. This is when i thought i was at 25% at 210lbs. Although once the clothes came off I would say its on the chubby side, some pople look different though, depending on where they tend to store fat.

Jilla82
10-01-2002, 07:19 PM
what % would a fat dude like Tony Soprano be?

ericg
10-01-2002, 08:31 PM
Not sure I ahve never seen the dude without his clothes on, but his is higher than 25% if my guess of myself of 25% is correct, I would say higher than 30%. Just a guess.

ericg
10-04-2002, 09:19 AM
BUMPIN FOR ROBBOE or anyone else (the thread i mean)

Was wondering if you think of the protein/fat amounts are ok?

Yanick
10-04-2002, 12:30 PM
looks good to me, unless you want to go into ketosis (but i don't remembering you wanting to do a CKD), in which case you should do a 1.5:1 fat:protein, but as a non-keto diet, the ratio's look fine.

ericg
10-04-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Yanick
looks good to me, unless you want to go into ketosis (but i don't remembering you wanting to do a CKD), in which case you should do a 1.5:1 fat:protein, but as a non-keto diet, the ratio's look fine.

Na its not really a CKD, its kind of a mix between CKD and the NHE diet. Will give it a couple of weeks and see how it goes. Thanks for the info.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-04-2002, 01:52 PM
Looks fine, Eric. Now we just gotta see if it works lol.

ericg
10-04-2002, 02:14 PM
You have a lot of doubts?

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-04-2002, 02:21 PM
Just about the degree of your 'free day'.

I have an inkling it'll only prove to really be a problem once you get leaner though.