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Hock
06-19-2001, 07:42 AM
I am looking to drop some bodyfat while maintaining my size. I am about 5' 9" and 160 with under 10% bf. I am entering in a competion this fall so i am starting to prepare.

Workout in morning from 6-7:30

Meal one
Protein Shake
1 Cup Oats Dry
Glutumine
1 Tbsp Flax Seed

Meal two
2 cans Tuna
Celery

Meal three
1-2 Chicken Breast
Raw Spinach

Meal four
5 eggs whites
1 Whole Egg
1 Tbsp Flax Seed

Meal Five
1 Cup Cottage Cheese
Protein Bar

Meal Six
Protein Shake Before bed

Protein-263
Carbs-81
fat-65
Total Cals~2000

Spiderman
06-19-2001, 07:46 AM
Well, on that diet I don't think you'll have a problem losing some bodyfat. But I'd reconsider that amount of fat. It looks kind of low to me. On that amount of carbs, I'd increase the fat to around 80-100g just to keep your energy a little higher. Also, are you lifting in the moring on an empty stomach?? (PLEASE say no!)

Alex.V
06-19-2001, 08:24 AM
Spidey- how bad is AM lifting for you? I have some idea, but not much. I can only lift early AM right now, and I do have a small glutamine/protein/carb shake before, but there's not enough time for a meal. (I wake up at 5:30 as it is).

Spiderman
06-19-2001, 09:18 AM
Belial,
For before your workout thats good IMO. Just as long as you have SOME sort carbs and protein before you lift. There are several people who don't eat anything before lifting in the morning and thats wrong. It just causes muscle tissue breakdown via gluconeogenesis. (Breaking down AA's to make ATP). So, yes, that protein/carb shake is fine. How long before you lift are you taking it?

Alex.V
06-19-2001, 09:47 AM
I have the stuff sitting in the shaker bottle next to my bed. i chug it the second I wake up, and end up actually lifting about 30-45 minutes later. It's pretty light: about 15 grams protein, 20 grams carbs, 10 extra grams of glutamine. Much more than that and I'd have to wait too long to digest.

Spiderman
06-19-2001, 09:58 AM
Well, being that its liquid then it'll be digested sooner than whole food. I'd suggest taking double that amount and see how it goes. Perhaps add 16 oz of skim milk to it. That will add another 16 g of protein and about 24-26 g carbs. This will bump the calories up from 140 to somewhere between 300 and 310. See how that works for ya. ;)

Alex.V
06-19-2001, 12:07 PM
Not a bad idea. I wanted to avoid too many calories, though. Milk doesn't digest very quickly; I'd sooner add some more whey and simple carbs.... But if i keep having crappy workouts like the one this morning, i'll bump up the cals....

Hock
06-21-2001, 08:45 AM
I usually don't have any thing but i will start to have a shake on the days I lift but not on the days I am doing Cardio In the morning, how does that sound?

Spiderman
06-21-2001, 09:13 AM
That sounds like an excellent idea Hock. Keep us posted bro. ;)

Cackerot69
06-21-2001, 10:25 AM
Spidey, you said that the body will break down muscle to produce ATP if you don't eat anything before you workout. But, since ATP is the fuel for ALL muscular contraction, and during aerobic exercises the Type I fibers will be contracting - doesn't that mean the body will need ATP to fuel that contraction? The body can't produce ATP from fat because the body can't metabolise fat into glucose. In addition, Type I fibers have the greatest mitochondrial density of the muscle fibere, which means they will need more ATP for contraction than IIB fibers, which are generally the targeted fiber in anaerobic activity - weight training.

So, why would morning weight training be bad, but morning cardio good?

Spiderman
06-21-2001, 03:43 PM
Cack,
A few things before I get to your question. First of all, I know the body can't produce ATP from fat. Secondly, Type I and Type IIA fibers have the about the same mitochondrial density. Yet all the fibers have several DIFFERENT properties. I'm not saying morning weight training is bad, (nor did I ever) I said that its bad to do it in the morning on an empty stomach. Now to the topic at hand...

During endurance exercise the two major sources of energy are carbs in the form of muslce glycogen and fat in the from of free fatty acids. (FFA's) The energy from FFA's comes from the serum triglyceride levels. Since this is in relatively short supply it must be constantly replenished. Thus an enzyme (hormone sensitive lipase--HSL) catabolizes the intracellular triglycerides into FFA's and glycerol. These are released into the blood, bound to albumin and transported to the muscle cell for immediate energy metabolism via aerobic glycolysis.(within the mitochondria) I'm not saying that fat is the only source, but in highly trained individuals it is the more predominant one. Although your muscle does contract in cardio, it is not as much as weight training. The twitch contraction time in Type I is slow and force production is low as well Thus not as much contraction in cardio as weight training. Do you see my point?

Weight training is another story altogether. Because weight training is anaerobic and does not use oxygen it will NOT be able to use fat for energy. Fat needs oxygen to be used as fuel, thats a fact. Since you brought up the topic of Fiber types let me display some properties of fiber types. You know Type II are predominantly used for anaerobic activity.
Each fiber type has its own enzymatic properties. Type I have High levels of oxidative enzymes, Type IIA have the same level and Type IIB have LOW oxidative enzymatic levels. (I'll neglect the Glycolytic and Myosin-ATPase enzymes since those are not the specific topic at hand) This being said and knowing that fat needs oxygen to be burned you can come to the conclusion that lifting weights won't burn fat. Anaerobic activity uses carbs for energy and when carbs are not in good supply, protein will be broken down for energy. The mechanism by which this occurs is called Gluconeogenesis. Specifically, the common pathway is called the Glucose-Alanine Cycle. This is when Glucose is made in the liver from pyruvic acid that is carried there in the form of alanine; the alanine being originally formed in the muscle by combining -NH2 radicals from metabolized amino acids with pyruvate.
Information taken from A. Spideys head and B. FOX'S PHYSIOLOGICAL BASIS FOR EXERCISE AND SPORT (pgs 149-150, 600)

Hope this answered your question. ;)

Tryska
06-21-2001, 03:50 PM
Oh.

so this is where my dead horse has been hiding.

*smacks horse with a baseball bat*

Taras
06-21-2001, 08:04 PM
Cack and Spidey,
You both know that the body can't produce ATP from fat, but, fortunately, you're both wrong. Get a biochemistry book and look up beta oxidation of fatty acids. That should help to clear up some misconceptions. Also, you can find a good review article entitled "The Regulation of Carbohydrate and Fat Metabolism During and After Exercise" at www.bioscience.org. Click on "articles" and then look for this article in Volume 3, beginning on page d1011

Spiderman
06-21-2001, 09:00 PM
oooops..... Sorry Taras. I really did know that, but
sometimes I miss/forget things like that. Thanks for the heads up bro. ;)

Alex.V
06-21-2001, 10:14 PM
I knew that.

*Feels smart*

:D

However, is everyone ignoring:

fatty acid --[oxidation]--> Acetyl CoA --[citric acid cycle]-[oxidative phosphorylation]--> ATP?

This can occur even during rest, no? Even though the body may be operating anaerobically during the set, can't this process create ATP from fatty acids during rest periods between bursts of anaerobic exercise? i.e., unlike aerobic exercise where oxygen levels are sufficient to allow continuous, sufficient oxidation, can't the ATP be at least significantly replenished by fatty acids during between-set recovery?

Cackerot69
06-21-2001, 11:17 PM
"During endurance exercise the two major sources of energy are carbs in the form of muslce glycogen and fat in the from of free fatty acids. (FFA's)"

Under which conditions? Based on this info it's impossible to lose muscle during aerobic exercise. Doing cardio before breakfast = doing cardio with depleted liver glycogen. In order to get glucose, the liver will take alanine and arginine among other things from the muscles through gluconeogenesis. This is muscle atrophy.

"The energy from FFA's comes from the serum triglyceride levels. Since this is in relatively short supply it must be constantly replenished. Thus an enzyme (hormone sensitive lipase--HSL) catabolizes the intracellular triglycerides into FFA's and glycerol. These are released into the blood, bound to albumin and transported to the muscle cell for immediate energy metabolism via aerobic glycolysis."

That's not how I understand it. Glycogen is broken down to provide the energy for ATP formation and and also the formation of pyruvic acid. Additionally, some blood glucose may be used in this process, along with the intramuscular glycogen. One of the end products of this mechanism is lactic acid, which is made by the eventual conversion of pyruvic acid. This mechanism can provide more total energy than the phosphagen system, but not as quickly. This being the case, anaerobic glycolysis is the major energy pathway for muscular contractions lasting from ~30 to ~60 seconds. The effects that the lactic acid (which is produced during this process) has on muscular contraction must be considered here. Lactic acid build-up in the muscle cells makes the interior of the muscle more acidic. This acidic environment interferes with the chemical processes that expose actin cross-bridging sites and permit cross-bridging. It also interferes with ATP formation. So, these factors, along with depleted energy stores, cause the muscle fibers to become fatigued and contraction to cease.

"I'm not saying that fat is the only source, but in highly trained individuals it is the more predominant one. Although your muscle does contract in cardio, it is not as much as weight training. The twitch contraction time in Type I is slow and force production is low as well Thus not as much contraction in cardio as weight training. Do you see my point?"

I see your point, but I don't understand it. First, why would fat be the primary source in highly trained individuals over muscle? Keeping in mind the bodies primary function being survival. The amount of contraction would depend on the specific exercise. Here's what I don't get - mitochondria contain oxidative enzymes and actually consume oxygen during exercise and convert the chemical energy contained in fat and carbohydrate to ATP that can be used by the cell to support contraction. Ultimately, via enzymatic processes occurring first in the sarcoplasm and then the mitochondria, glucose and fat molecules (and certain amino acids) are broken down and combined with oxygen to form ATP, heat, carbon dioxide, and water. The thing is, for us people with more muscle mass, and less fat, and no liver glycogen, depleted muscle glycogen...where do you think the energy is going to come from? The energy for oxidative phosphoylation comes from carbs and fat WHEN NOT IN STARVATION. When we wake up in the morning and do our cardio on an empty stomach we ARE in starvation, so MUSCLE is the primary source of energy. Get it?

YatesNightBlade
06-22-2001, 02:01 AM
Bollox.

Tryska
06-22-2001, 06:53 AM
*smacks self with with baseball bat*

Spiderman
06-22-2001, 07:19 AM
Cack,
I don't care if thats how you understand it or not. See the little reference I made? MOST of this information came from a book. At least I'm putting up a reference for my information. Perhaps you'd like the names of the authors so's you can call them and argue the point with EXPERTS in the field?

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 07:23 AM
LOL...

I think you are misinformed, Spidey. ;)

YatesNightBlade
06-22-2001, 07:25 AM
bollox.

Spiderman
06-22-2001, 07:27 AM
No, I'm not mis-informed at all Cack. How come my post is exactly what I learn in class from my professor who has a PHD in exercise physiology?? Are you gonna tell him he's mis-informed? I don't think so...I"m willing to bet we both my professor and I know more and have forgotten more than you will ever learn on the subject. Add to that I tire of this little game of yours... You will get no more responses from me on this subject matter.

Alex.V
06-22-2001, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by YatesNightBlade
STFU and lift.

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 07:42 AM
Bwahahahahaha....

You're so stupid it's funny.

Tryska
06-22-2001, 07:44 AM
*smacks spidey and cack with baseball bat*

*smacks dead horse yet again, then smacks self*


~~^~~^~~~~^^~~~~^^~~~~~~~~~(blackout)

YatesNightBlade
06-22-2001, 07:46 AM
When did I say that ?? ...... damn I give out sound advice and don't even remember. :D

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by spideyongear
I am mis-informed

Alex.V
06-22-2001, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by YatesNightBlade
When did I say that ?? ...... damn I give out sound advice and don't even remember. :D

You didn't, Yates. But I knew that's what you were thinking. lol.

Spiderman
06-22-2001, 09:35 AM
Cack if you wanna make this personal lets keep it to email. Your last few posts have done nothing but personally attack me. Oh, and don't ****in misquote me you little ****!

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by spideyongear
I am mis-informed, and I use gear

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 09:42 AM
What do you mean, friend?

Alex.V
06-22-2001, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Cackerot69
I am trying to start sh*t

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Belial
I want Spidey's penis

Tryska
06-22-2001, 09:51 AM
oh

the draaaama.

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
I want Cack's penis

Tryska
06-22-2001, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Cackerot69

I like when Tryska beats me. It makes me feel all special inside.




it's all fun and games til someone loses an eye.;)

*smacks mr. rot with a trout*

the doc
06-22-2001, 11:14 AM
net overall atp production from one palmitate chain of fat

16 carbon long saturated fatty acid.

1 palmitate = 129 atp produced

also spidey i wanted to correct something you said about ffa,
"These are released into the blood, bound to albumin and transported to the muscle cell for immediate energy metabolism via aerobic glycolysis.(within the mitochondria) "

actually they are metabolized via b-oxidation, a much different process from glycolysis (oxidation of glucose)

:)

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 04:15 PM
But...but...that CAN'T be wrong, Spidey's professor said so!

Taras
06-22-2001, 08:05 PM
Cack,

I don't like to beat a dead horse, but sometimes I can't help myself. You're still laboring under several misconceptions.

For example, you wrote, "When we wake up in the morning and do our cardio on an empty stomach we ARE in starvation, so MUSCLE is the primary source of energy." Actually, we are a long way from starvation after an overnight fast. Consider the following from Howald, H., and Decombaz, J. Nutrient intake and energy regulation in physical exercise. Experientia Suppl 1983;44:77-88.: "Oxidation of both glucose and free fatty acids supplies the energy needed for exercise lasting more than two minutes, the relative contribution of lipids increasing with a longer duration or a lower intensity of the muscular work. Intramuscular stores of glycogen and triglycerides may be almost completely depleted in long-lasting exercise, e.g. a 100 km run. Under these conditions, glycogen stores in the liver and triglycerides in adipose tissue contribute approximately 70% of the energy need whereas 5-10% of the supply comes from oxidation of amino acids." The point here is that even after a 100 km run, which would be a much more extreme situation than an overnight fast in terms of depleting energy stores, only 5-10% of the energy is coming from amino acids.

You also wrote, "Why would fat be the primary source in highly trained individuals over muscle? Keeping in mind the bodies primary function being survival?" Well, if you are trying to anser this by teleological reasoning (which I don't believe can provide definitive answers) wouldn't you have to conclude that it would be a better survival tactic to derive energy from fat, whose primary purpose is to serve as an energy store, than from muscle, which provides primarily a functional role?

In conclusion, let me refer you back to the reference in Frontiers in Bioscience that I recommended. No doubt you're finding this to be fascinating reading, but just in case you haven't finished it yet ;) let me quote this from the conclusion: "Over the past decade, there has been an impressive increase in what is known regarding the regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism....However, a numbeer of fundamental questions remain unanswered despite many years of intense investigation....Trying to answer these and the many other unanswered questions should keep those of us interested in the regulation of carbohydrate and fat metabolism during exercise fully employed during the remainder of our research careers." The point is that this area of biochemistry/exercise physiology is extremely complex, and nobody has it completely figured out yet.

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Taras
I will stop beating the poor dead horse, and I will stop using studies performed on non-weight trained individuals. Cack is dead sexy, too.

Gyno Rhino
06-22-2001, 08:20 PM
I agree with [insert preferred name here].

Taras
06-22-2001, 08:37 PM
Cack, you're misquoting me. I never said you were sexy dead.

YatesNightBlade
06-23-2001, 06:12 AM
bollox

Frankster
06-23-2001, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Taras

wouldn't you have to conclude that it would be a better survival tactic to derive energy from fat, whose primary purpose is to serve as an energy store, than from muscle, which provides primarily a functional role?


Muscle will be wasted first in starvation mode before fat because the more muscle you have the more calories you burn doing nothing ( you don't want that in starvation :) )

Alex.V
06-23-2001, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by Taras
Cack, you're misquoting me. I said Belial was dead sexy.

Paul Stagg
06-23-2001, 09:29 AM
Enough.

Ryan - You've gotten under my skin far to often over the past year or so, with your truely stupid insistance on using gear, your fairly constant pointless fueds, and general immaturity.

I'm glad you've taken the time to do some research on this stuff, even though it sounds to me like you copied it all right out of a book. I wish you would do that more often, perhaps you'll be in the iron game for longer. Stop making this personal. Make your point, debate

Cack - settle down. I know Ryan gets under your skin, but don't get personal. Make your point, debate.

What you'll both find, with more experience, is that what you are debating doesn't really matter much, and that focusing on the basic concepts (eat less, move more) is the way to go.

I'll use one of my twins examples:

Lets say, I know two identical twins, both of whom are 200 pounds and 18% bf. They want to be 12% bf. One does cardio in the morning (40 mins) 3x a week before he heats, one does cardio in the morning (40 mins) 3x a week after he eats a small meal of protien. Which one will get to 12% faster, assuming everything else is equal.

The answer: Both. It won't matter - at least not significantly enough to worry about.

Now, lets take those same twins, now at 200 pounds and 8% bf, and they both want to get to 4% for a competition.

Same deal as above... which one will look better at the competition.

My guess: the one who ate before cardio... but the difference will be VERY slight, only one that would matter on a BB stage, NOT one that matters for anyone not competing.

My point: Focus your energies on learning and understanding this stuff, but focus on the basics.

Everyone should read the last line of Taras' post.

the doc
06-23-2001, 10:30 AM
i definitely agree with paul, a lot of this wouldn't matter except when really cutting up for some competition. What's a 5% difference in fat loss rates or muscle loss for some ordinary type lifter fella such as myself?

Also, who is ryan??:confused: :confused:
is that spideyongear??

Taras
06-24-2001, 04:22 PM
One last (?) comment on this contrversy:

There's a good article in the latest (Aug 2001) issue of Ironman, starting on page 190. It presents arguments for and against AM cardio, and has a good list of references from scientific journals. The author of the article concludes with his recommendations based on "experience, common sense and research." (I won't give away the punchline -- You'll have to get a copy of the article for yourselves.) He then states, "Nevertheless, it will obviously continue to be an area of much debate and, clearly, more research is needed."

I think Paul made a good point. This may be a fascinating subject for discussion among those who have an academic interest in the finer points of metabolic regulation (like me), but I suspect that practically speaking, for the large majority of us, it doesn't really matter.

Taras
06-24-2001, 04:30 PM
To Cack and Belial:

No offense, but I'm a heterosexual male, and I don't find either of you to be sexy, dead or alive!!