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Tank23
10-12-2002, 09:56 PM
I was told by a fellow BB that I should get 100% of carbs from low GI sources. Even after a workout, he reckons low GI carbs are better.

Btw...this is for cutting, not for gaining mass.

What's the deal with the 100% low GI stuff? Right, Wrong?
If he's right, can someone give me the scientific explanation behind it.

-Tank23

Shao-LiN
10-12-2002, 10:00 PM
I dunno bout post workout, but if you're cutting...yah, you'd want majority of your carbs to be low GI.

LAM
10-12-2002, 10:10 PM
In the long run..low GI is definetly the way to go but by using proper food combinations and portions you can make almost any meal glycemically acceptable which is more important...

entrrt
10-13-2002, 01:57 AM
it's all about the RIGHT TIMMING of carb. absorbtion

restless
10-13-2002, 03:42 AM
The scientific explanation is very simple. All carbs are sugar, that is, glucose molecules strung together. What varies is the complexity of these molecules "chains", so for something like pasta the "chains" are a lot bigger than for something like table sugar. Once they get into your blood, there's no diference between them, except for the rate at which they do it. Fiber also plays an important role in this equation and further slows down the absortion rate. This is important because once they're in the blood they're either used as energy or stored. If there's a big sugar rush and your body can't use them all some will probably be stored as fat by means of insulin action. In general terms, that's more or less it. Insulin will also prevent fatty acid mobilization as it sends a message to your body saying it should stop using fat as fuel as carbs just came in. Post workout it's a diferent story. Lyle put it quite simple in the second part of his interview here in wannabebig, the loss in fat burning is compensated by the extra muscle recovery and subsequent attenuated muscle loss when dieting. So i guess your friend is right. Personally, i'd also restrict carbs to post and maybe immediately pre workout and go very low during the rest of the day.

LAM
10-13-2002, 04:19 AM
that statement is partially true..but there are tons more sugars other than glucose that comprise the carbohydrate composition of most low GI foods

restless
10-13-2002, 04:52 AM
It all comes down to fructose and glucose once they get to your blood. The statement is only partially true because i forgot to include fructose in there. It's all sugars, be it whole pasta or table sugar.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-13-2002, 04:58 AM
Focus more on overall calories.

Use high GI post workout if you like.

Insulin will only become more of a problem once you're down to your stubborn fat deposits or you're closer to sub 10%. Maybe then focus more on low GI, or low carb.

Marcel
10-13-2002, 05:01 AM
hip hop horray hoo!

chigs is right. focus on cals overall.

wheny you get to stubborn bodyfat then worry about low cal gi cal bla boa bla.

Tank23
10-13-2002, 07:05 AM
you're prob right chigs. But from what i gather, eating low GI will help me slim down faster as i will not have insulin spikes which prevent fat usage.

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-13-2002, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by Tank23
you're prob right chigs. But from what i gather, eating low GI will help me slim down faster as i will not have insulin spikes which prevent fat usage.

But as long as calories are in deficit overall you'll still lose. Only problem with using high GI or junk food is that you'll get wild blood sugar swings and you'll crave more food and suffer bad hunger pangs. Chances are you'll break diet.

even if you spike insulin with something of a high GI nature (let's say table sugar), lipolysis may be shut off, but the insulin spike ain't gonna last all day. Once the insulin drops back down the body can resume burning fat for the duration until you next spike it (if you do).

Overall, it all comes down to a 24-hour calorie balance. The body NEEDS X amount of calories to fuel various functions and processes. It's gonna get them from outside sources or stored sources whether you've spiked your insulin or not.

Junk food/high Gi foods aren't always good for decent training sessions though, so chances are your strength will go down and in calorie deficit you run the risk of losing muscle.

And then there's the factors of poor vitamins/mineral/phytochemicals from junk food.

But i digress.

Moral of the story: stick to 'clean' foods and you've got more chance of sticking to the diet and making it work. Afterall, this is one of the key components of a sucessful diet.

Puttn
10-13-2002, 06:21 PM
simple carbs after workout
low gi whenever you can
if you have to eat simple carbs and there is no way to eat anything else then eat it becaus eyou need the calories

Tank23
10-14-2002, 06:24 AM
Yeh Chigs..I see your point now. I'm gonna try as best I can to stick to low GI carbs. I have a few questions to ask now...

Is wholemeal/wholewheat bread good enough on the glycemic index to not spike insulin levels too much?

Is spaghetti considered a low GI carb?? I'm unsure on this one...as most low GI carbs like bread and rice come from whole wheat/grain sources, but I'm not sure if spaghetti is this. It is just normal white spaghetti.

Even after all this research....I'm still confused as to what style of diet I will use on my cutting cycle. I was thinking CKD, but I really don't know much about how it works.
With a CKD, since you're eating carbs at least twice a week (i think), do you still hit ketosis?
Do you feel sluggish on this diet, or is it like other keto style diets claim: once your body makes the transition you feel more energetic than ever?

If I don't do a CKD, I may just keep carbs low, and eat carbs before and after a workout.

Which option is better?

The_Chicken_Daddy
10-14-2002, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Tank23
Yeh Chigs..I see your point now. I'm gonna try as best I can to stick to low GI carbs. I have a few questions to ask now...

Is wholemeal/wholewheat bread good enough on the glycemic index to not spike insulin levels too much?

Can't remember. They're not overly high but then again not overly low, as i recall. You can use them, but if you have a problem with cravings or hunger pangs, then a more ideal source of carbs may be suggested.



Is spaghetti considered a low GI carb?? I'm unsure on this one...as most low GI carbs like bread and rice come from whole wheat/grain sources, but I'm not sure if spaghetti is this. It is just normal white spaghetti.

Again, i'm not totally sure. They're around about the 60 mark i think. I'll find the GI for you in a sec.

One point of note here, a point that i go by anyway, is that if something is man-made, like breads, pastas etc... then it is usually higher on the GI than most.

You can get away with using the products, but like i say, the top choices are the 'natural' choices IMO. My top three being oatmeal, brown/wholegrain rice and sweet potato. Try your best to base a diet around these sources, but breads (like oatbran bread like Gino suggested in another thread maybe) and pastas are ok.

I eat spaghetti when i 'bulk'. Why? cause i like it :)

I eat oats when i cut. Why? cause it keeps me fuller for longer and i'm happy. When i'm happy i can stick to my diet easier.



Even after all this research....I'm still confused as to what style of diet I will use on my cutting cycle. I was thinking CKD, but I really don't know much about how it works.

Here are some article links:

From WBB: http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=34 and http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=45

I would also give you the Lyle McDonald article trio on the topic of ketogenic diets, but the page no longer exists. I'll keep hunting though.



With a CKD, since you're eating carbs at least twice a week (i think), do you still hit ketosis?

Well, the carb load is usually over 2 days (usually the weekend for most), but you can limit it to one day if you really gorge. Or a day and a half, using the second half of the day to get back into ketosis sooner.

Yes, you eventually get back into ketosis.




Do you feel sluggish on this diet, or is it like other keto style diets claim: once your body makes the transition you feel more energetic than ever?

I've never set out to do a proper keto diet so i can't tell you. I've done real low carb diets, and i've probably hit ketosis, but i've never tested for it so i can't be sure. And since i've never set out on a keto-diet, i dunno if i've ever made the ransition so i have no guideline to compare against. So maybe ask someone with experience?

But for the most part, from what i can gather, you do get brain fog making the transition. personally, i've always got brain fog, or maybe i'm just dumb? But either way, i can't tell you for certain.

B&I used to be a keto person. He'll let ya know.



If I don't do a CKD, I may just keep carbs low, and eat carbs before and after a workout.

A bit like a TKD then?

There's a bit about CKD and TKD on the roundtable page this month. Here ya go: http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=88



Which option is better?

How long is a piece of string?

lol, seriously though, that's for you to try and find out.

Most like TKD cause it means you can keep your training efforts the same, but some prefer the whole weekend binge job.

It's up to you man.

Blood&Iron
10-14-2002, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


You can get away with using the products, but like i say, the top choices are the 'natural' choices IMO. My top three being oatmeal, brown/wholegrain rice and sweet potato. Try your best to base a diet around these sources, but breads (like oatbran bread like Gino suggested in another thread maybe) and pastas are ok.

I eat spaghetti when i 'bulk'. Why? cause i like it :)

I eat oats when i cut. Why? cause it keeps me fuller for longer and i'm happy. When i'm happy i can stick to my diet easier.


Shoot, if you're going to use low GI foods--which like TCD I think is useful primarily as a way to keep hunger from getting out of control--I'd skip ALL grains and stick to fibrous vegetables and (certain)fruits. They give you much more bang for your buck. I'm sorta doing that now, but I do have oatmeal/muesli for breakfast as I work out in the morning. Besides a bowl of broccoli at breakfast is just not gonna happen.

gino
10-14-2002, 11:12 AM
Eat high GI carbs when you NEED them. When you need them isn't any different, regardless of bulking or cutting goals. Your muscles need fast glycogen replacement following a workout, which only high GI crabs will produce. Eat low GI carbs throughout the rest of the day. High GI carbs, POST-WORKOUT meal only, will not comprimise your fat loss goals, but lack of could comprimise your muscle recovery/building/preservation ability. Fat loss can be achieved by adjusting the other meals of the day(not post-workout). I'd only suggest cutting out high GI carbs post-workout, a couple weeks away from a contest. I maintain single didgit bodyfat while consuming 50-75g of high GI carbs after a workout. I eat only low GI carbs with the other 6 meals of the day though.

Stray
10-14-2002, 11:26 AM
People rarely eat a carbohydrate by itself...how does other foods mixed in with the carb (let's say noodles with shrimp in it) does the shrimp slow the absorption of the noodles?

In other words...how do other foods you've eaten effect a carbohydrates GI rating?

gino
10-14-2002, 12:00 PM
GI of the foods vs the GR(glycemic response) of the meal is not always the same, but the food GI is always a good benchmark for the GR of the meal. If you want a low GR, your best bet is to eat low GI foods. Some combinations of low and high GI foods will blunt the GR of the high GI foods, but not many of these interactions have been documented, and rely on too many variables - even the order in which you eat the foods in the meal can make a difference.

Tank23
10-15-2002, 08:13 AM
thanks for the informative post chigs. and thanks to everyone else for your replies.

I've figured out exactly what i'm gonna do: for now i'll be staying on something like a 40/30/30. Then a bit later on after exams I'll switch to a TKD.

ericg
10-15-2002, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Tank23
I was told by a fellow BB that I should get 100% of carbs from low GI sources. Even after a workout, he reckons low GI carbs are better.

Btw...this is for cutting, not for gaining mass.

What's the deal with the 100% low GI stuff? Right, Wrong?
If he's right, can someone give me the scientific explanation behind it.

-Tank23

I did low GI for over 100 days of cutting and it worked great for me. Give it a shot.

houseman
10-15-2002, 12:01 PM
Hi All,

New here but been around some boards for a while now.

Just thought I'd chime in. Some of you may know me some of you may not.

I like to post alot of Diet and Nutrition stuff.. some comes first hand through experience and some comes from articles I've read via credible sources.

I won't do any source posting though some of you may notices where the info, if of an article nature, comes from.

Anyway.. as far as GI is concerned.

As LAM pointed out its not neccessarily that GI of a food that you might want to concern yourself with but rather the GR (Glycemic Response) of the meal you are consuming.

Generally speaking eating food combinations low in GI to begin with will ultimately result in a lower GR of the meal, however, expections do apply.

One example would be eating oatmeal with brown sugar for added taste. Now.. the oatmeal IS low GI, however, the addition of brown sugar makes this meal combination a higher GR. This is a rather simplistic and OBVIOUS example.

Something that has been suggested to me (and I may consider if it I can get over the needle thing heh) is using a blood-glucose monitor 30 mins after you eat to assess which meal combinations produce a higher GR over another.. track that data over a period of time and under same stress levels, etc.

This will allow you to determine which food combinations allow you to stay within an acceptable GR (insulin) range thus limiting the fat storage potential.

Its not 100% accurate but I'd be willing to bet its relatively close.

Take what you want from this..afterall its just a suggestion.

As far as cals in vs. cals out.. whilke I agree with the statement that as long as your cals out as lower than your cals in you will loss weight I think we need to determine what kind of weight you are looking to lose - scale weight of BF weight?

One can eat 1000 cals under maint. and lose scale weight no problem.. but you will burn mostly muscle evenetually. For those with muscle and wanting to maintain the most of it I would not rest solely on a cals in vs. cals out ideal.

JUST my thoughts. Again.. take what you want from them.

Peace.

Aaron

Tank23
10-16-2002, 01:37 AM
ericg: so you ate low GI carbs even post workout?


I agree that a cals in VS cals out approach will work, but it will definitely be harder to stick to good food if you're eating high GI. With insulin spikes you get the undesirable consequence of hunger pangs and you'll want even more of that food.


I've eaten solely low GI for the past 2 days (i was eating low GI most of the time anyway, but sometimes i might've craved a bit of coke or something like that, so i'd have a sip or two, this would be enough to spike insulin a fair bit..right?) and eating all carbs from low GI, or relatively low GI sources has made it so much easier for me.

I no longer crave sugary foods, and if i do i usually make a coffee and add Equal Sweetner Tablets, or I'll have a sugarfree chewing gum.

So in conclusion...I think low GI is the way to go, with post workout maybe being an exception.

ericg
10-16-2002, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Tank23
ericg: so you ate low GI carbs even post workout?


Yup, oats and whey. My only carb sources were sweet potato and oats. Worked very good for fat loss. The diet in the earlier part of my journal follows this type of diet, check it out if you want.