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steveo
10-22-2002, 11:10 AM
What kind of butter can you have that is not bad for you on a cut phase? Is there any?

Tryska
10-22-2002, 11:41 AM
the butter kind?

Vido
10-22-2002, 11:43 AM
There is absolutely no use for butter in anything except for baked goods, which I hope you are not consuming on a cutting diet anyway. Of all the things to ditch in order to clean up one's diet, butter has got to be one of the easiest.

Manveet
10-22-2002, 11:46 AM
Why not just use vegetable oil or something?

Shao-LiN
10-22-2002, 12:12 PM
Margarine would be a better choice I think, if you really had to have a butter type thing.

millertime
10-22-2002, 12:16 PM
Try apple butter

Vido
10-22-2002, 12:20 PM
If it's for cooking, use olive oil. If it's for sandwiches, use mustard or salsa. If it's for toast or bagels, use natty pb. It shouldn't be necessary to use real butter or margarine.

steveo
10-22-2002, 01:04 PM
I was wondering, because I was cheking this online diet for body builders and it said WW Toast and butter. I wasn't what they meant I thought it was bad for your diet. I eat my toast plain, so when I read that butter sounder pretty damn good.

JohnnyAutoParts
10-22-2002, 01:06 PM
what do you guys use for frying eggs?

LAM
10-22-2002, 01:07 PM
real butter is better in the long run vs. most spreads which contain fake fats

I use SmartBalance which contains no trans fatty acids as it's non-hydrogenated

raniali
10-22-2002, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by JohnnyAutoParts
what do you guys use for frying eggs?

olive oil
or MCT oil

bradley
10-22-2002, 01:31 PM
Smart balance also makes a squeeze type of butter that only has five calories per serving.

Stray
10-22-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by JohnnyAutoParts
what do you guys use for frying eggs?

olive oil or cooking spray

restless
10-22-2002, 01:49 PM
Don't use margarine under any circunstances and avoid all super market oils but extra virgin olive oil. All these fats are loaded with trans and hidrogenated fatty acids. They're one of the worst things you can do to your health, nutrition wise. Butter is a much better choice. If you have to fry, which I would never recomend doing, use either cocunut oil or even butter. Saturated fats keep stable at higher temperatures unlike polysaturates and more than monos. Unfortunately all frying is a terrible choice and very unhealthy.

Yanick
10-22-2002, 01:58 PM
I use a tsp of butter for frying my eggs. I'm not sure of the cooking term to use, but it lubricates the pan so the eggs don't stick to the pan.

Its not as calorie dense as olive oil, and you can use only a little bit of it to 'lube' the frying pan. We never have any of that Pam stuff at home so i use butter.

Plus as stated before, its a SAFA so its stable at high temperatures.

And, one more thing, NEVER use margarine. Just go check out some articles on trans fatty acids and you will see why you shouldn't use that crap. I can't get into details on it, but i've read so many articles about it, i just avoid it i don't need to memorize all of the ill effects (they will just take up valuable 'brain space').

hemants
10-23-2002, 08:37 AM
"Don't use margarine under any circunstances and avoid all super market oils but extra virgin olive oil. All these fats are loaded with trans and hidrogenated fatty acids. They're one of the worst things you can do to your health, nutrition wise. Butter is a much better choice. If you have to fry, which I would never recomend doing, use either cocunut oil or even butter. Saturated fats keep stable at higher temperatures unlike polysaturates and more than monos. Unfortunately all frying is a terrible choice and very unhealthy"

Partially true. Hydrogenated margarine is as bad as butter.

Non hydrogenated margarine is better and widely available, and even partially hydrogenated margarine is better than hydrogenated or saturated fat.

Cooking oils at low heat is okay, particularly olive oil which doesn't denature that much. But if you see smoke that's a bad sign.

Stray
10-23-2002, 08:46 AM
But if you see smoke that's a bad sign.

Thats true in so many circumstances.

Relentless
10-23-2002, 08:53 AM
olive oil, esp. the fresh cold pressed kind (it is more expensive and will look greenish rather than pale yellow) is all ya need for 99% of cooking plus it's good for ya. Get one of those 'misters' to use it to spray in the pan or whatever

When you're gonna have a cheat/refeed day tho, butter rocks. Butter is the reason french cooking is so damn tasty.

NateDogg
10-23-2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by LAM
real butter is better in the long run vs. most spreads which contain fake fats

I use SmartBalance which contains no trans fatty acids as it's non-hydrogenated

:withstupi

SmarBalance rules!

restless
10-23-2002, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by hemants
"Don't use margarine under any circunstances and avoid all super market oils but extra virgin olive oil. All these fats are loaded with trans and hidrogenated fatty acids. They're one of the worst things you can do to your health, nutrition wise. Butter is a much better choice. If you have to fry, which I would never recomend doing, use either cocunut oil or even butter. Saturated fats keep stable at higher temperatures unlike polysaturates and more than monos. Unfortunately all frying is a terrible choice and very unhealthy"

Partially true. Hydrogenated margarine is as bad as butter.

Non hydrogenated margarine is better and widely available, and even partially hydrogenated margarine is better than hydrogenated or saturated fat.

Cooking oils at low heat is okay, particularly olive oil which doesn't denature that much. But if you see smoke that's a bad sign.

Hydrogenated margarine is a LOT worst than butter. I don't know why you quoted my post and said something totally unrelated to it but whatever....

hemants
10-24-2002, 08:01 AM
"Hydrogenated margarine is a LOT worst than butter. "

It depends entirely on how heavily hydrogenated the margarine is. I can't remember the last time I saw stick margarine in the grocery store (ie. heavily hydrogenated)

Lichtenstein, Alice H.. Ausman, Lynne M.. Jalbert, Susan M.. Schaefer, Ernst J.. Effects of Different Forms of Dietary Hydrogenated Fats on Serum Lipoprotein Cholesterol Levels. New England Journal of Medicine. 340(25):1933-1940, June 24, 1999


"Our results suggest that the use of soybean oil or semiliquid margarine results in the most favorable total and LDL cholesterol levels and ratios of total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol, whereas the use of stick margarine or butter results in the opposite effect. Soybean oil and semiliquid margarine have the lowest levels of trans fatty acids of the various fats that we studied, and they are also low in saturated fat. The fats with intermediate levels of trans and saturated fatty acids resulted in intermediate values"

restless
10-24-2002, 11:43 AM
I'll get back to you in a while...

restless
10-24-2002, 12:06 PM
Effect of hydrogenated and saturated, relative to polyunsaturated, fat on immune and inflammatory responses of adults with moderate hypercholesterolemia.

Han SN, Leka LS, Lichtenstein AH, Ausman LM, Schaefer EJ, Meydani SN.

Nutritional Immunology Laboratory, Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, 711 Washington Street, Boston, MA 02111, USA.

Consumption of diets high in hydrogenated fat/trans fatty acids has been shown to have an adverse affect on lipoprotein profiles with respect to cardiovascular disease risk. Dietary fat and cholesterol play an important role in the regulation of immune and inflammatory responses shown to be involved in atherogenesis. We investigated the effects of diets containing hydrogenated fat on cellular immune response and production of inflammatory cytokines in human subjects with moderately elevated cholesterol levels (LDL cholesterol >130 mg/dl). In a double blind cross-over study, 19 subjects consumed three diets, 30% of calories as fat, of which two thirds were provided as soybean oil, soybean oil-based stick margarine, or butter for 32 days, each in a randomized order. Production of proinflammatory mediators, prostaglandin (PG)E(2), interleukin (IL)-1beta, IL-6, and tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha); delayed type hypersensitivity (DTH) response, in vitro lymphocyte proliferation, and production of IL-2 were determined. Production of IL-6 and TNF-alpha was significantly higher after consumption of stick margarine diet compared with soybean oil diet. IL-1beta and TNF-alpha production correlated positively with ratios of total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol (r = 0.499, P < 0.001 and r = 0.291, P = 0.04, respectively). There was no significant difference in DTH response, lymphocyte proliferation, or levels of IL-2 and PGE(2) produced among three groups. Our results indicate that consumption of a diet high in hydrogenated fat does not adversely affect cellular immunity but increases production of inflammatory cytokines that have been associated with the pathophysiology of atherosclerosis.

PMID: 11893781 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Replacement of dietary saturated fatty acids by trans fatty acids lowers serum HDL cholesterol and impairs endothelial function in healthy men and women.

de Roos NM, Bots ML, Katan MB.

Division of Human Nutrition and Epidemiology, Wageningen University, Wageningen, the Netherlands.

We tested whether trans fatty acids and saturated fatty acids had different effects on flow-mediated vasodilation (FMD), a risk marker of coronary heart disease (CHD). Consumption of trans fatty acids is related to increased risk of CHD, probably through effects on lipoproteins. Trans fatty acids differ from most saturated fatty acids because they decrease serum high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, and this may increase the risk of CHD. We fed 29 volunteers 2 controlled diets in a 2x4-week randomized crossover design. The "Trans-diet" contained 9.2 energy percent of trans fatty acids; these were replaced by saturated fatty acids in the "Sat-diet." Mean serum HDL cholesterol after the Trans-diet was 0.39 mmol/L (14.8 mg/dL), or 21% lower than after the Sat-diet (95% CI 0.28 to 0.50 mmol/L). Serum low density lipoprotein and triglyceride concentrations were stable. FMD+SD was 4.4+/-2.3% after the Trans-diet and 6.2+/-3.0% after the Sat-diet (difference -1.8%, 95% CI -3.2 to -0.4). Replacement of dietary saturated fatty acids by trans fatty acids impaired FMD of the brachial artery, which suggests increased risk of CHD. Further studies are needed to test whether the decrease in serum HDL cholesterol caused the impairment of FMD.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 11451757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Individual cholesterol variation in response to a margarine- or butter-based diet: A study in families.

Denke MA, Adams-Huet B, Nguyen AT.

Department of Internal Medicine, Center for Human Nutrition, 5323 Harry Hines Blvd, Room Y3.234, Dallas, TX 75390-9052, USA. mdenke@mednet.swmed.edu

CONTEXT: The effectiveness of dietary modification in reducing low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C) levels can be reliably predicted for populations, but not for individuals. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether individual variation in cholesterol response to dietary modification is a familial trait. DESIGN: Two-period, outpatient crossover trial conducted from September 1997 to September 1999. SETTING AND PARTICIPANTS: Fifty-six families from the Dallas-Ft Worth, Tex, area with 2 biological parents and at least 2 children aged 5 years or older volunteered; 46 families (n = 92 adults and n = 134 children) completed the study. INTERVENTION: All families followed two 5-week dietary regimens that included individualized daily dietary prescriptions and emphasized a low-saturated fat diet supplemented with specially manufactured baked goods and spreadable fat. One regimen used butter only and the other used margarine only. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE: Mean LDL-C levels during the last 2 weeks of each dietary period. RESULTS: Margarine intake compared with butter intake lowered LDL-C levels 11% in adults (95% confidence interval [CI], 13% to 9%) and 9% in children (95% CI, 12% to 6%) (P<.001 for both adults and children). The distribution of individual responses were peaked around the mean response. For adults and children together, family membership accounted for 19% of variability in response (P =.007). In children, family membership accounted for 40% of variability in response of percent change in LDL-C levels (P =.002). Body mass index and change in cholesterol ester (CE) 18:2/18:1 ratio accounted for 26% of variation, leaving 26% still attributable to family membership. In all participants, BMI predicted response-heavier individuals had higher LDL-C levels, less excursion in CE fatty acids, and less LDL-C response to dietary change. CONCLUSIONS: Our results suggest that individual variation in response to a cholesterol-lowering diet is a familial trait. Body weight is an important modifiable factor that influences response. JAMA. 2000;284:2740-2747.

PMID: 11105179 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

restless
10-24-2002, 12:15 PM
Listen, I have little desire of continuing these arguments with you. Though I have a feeling we have quite a few scheduled in the future.

As far as I'm concerned were pretty much in the midlle age of nutrition. The researches also keep saying that a low fat-high carb diet is best for your health and so what?

Cholesterol is for the most part produce in the liver, around 80% or so. These levels are pretty much dictated by genetics and not by dietary intake. Untill anyone comes up with a proper research that proves that a diet high in omega 3 and in saturated fat is bad for you, I'll take my risks. Saturated fat has been around for as long as we've been. Our bodies store fat in saturated form. Hydrogenated fats are an aberration. Margarine is an aberration. As far as I'm concerned you can have as much of it as you want. I don't care, but don't come telling me it is healthier than butter.

hemants
10-24-2002, 02:24 PM
As I said already "It depends entirely on how heavily hydrogenated the margarine is"

But to restate for the purpose of clairy, according to both your sources and mine:

"Change in Serum Total Cholesterol:HDL Cholesterol Ratio

Soybean oil -6%
Semiliquid margarine -5%
Soft margarine -2%
Shortening -1%
Butter 0 (base case)
Stick margarine 4%"


Soybean oil is better than
semi-liquid margarine which is better than
soft margarine which is better than
shortening which is better than
butter which is better than
stick margarine.

So I'm not really disagreeing with you except that what you say about "margarine" is only true for stick margarine which is very heavily hydrogenated.

P.S. Don't shoot the messenger :)

restless
10-26-2002, 12:27 PM
Hemants, tell me what you think of this:

Westonaprice.org (http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/skinny.html)

I'm curious about your opinion (and others). I once believed in the exact same things as you do now, but a ton of research has made a believe that there has been some kind of conspiracy that deceived us all in regard to fats.

~G~
10-26-2002, 01:09 PM
You guys are great.

hemants
10-28-2002, 08:44 AM
"Hemants, tell me what you think of this:"

I'll look into it. But that being said, I am very wary of conclusions posted on websites as opposed to peer reviewed journals EVEN IF those conclusions loosely reference journal articles.

I have three friends who are cardiologists and from what I understand (not a question of belief for me) reduction in blood cholesterol through diet and exercise is a no brainer for patients who have already had heart problems and undertreatment is a BIG problem.

That being said, in terms of PREVENTION for otherwise healthy individuals, the data is less conclusive and populations studies are prone to error due to genetic considerations.

One of my cardiologist friends says that most clinicians have all but given up trying to convince their patients to lower their saturated fat intake because they don't listen and so they prescribe cholesterol lowering medication almost immediately.

I'll try to dig up some more info for you but most of the information from the website you posted seems more like half-truths than credible research.