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Wide Guy
06-22-2001, 12:48 AM
What do you guys use for your carbs in a post workout shake?

Many people, including me, use fruit. But doesn't fructose replenish liver glycogen in preference to muscle glycogen?

So I was thinking: wouldn't good ol' sugar be better? Could you use something like chocolate syrup or other sugary thing to get the sucrose for a really good insulin spike?

It just seems wrong to drink something like that after you've just worked so hard.....

Cackerot69
06-22-2001, 01:24 AM
Sucrose (table sugar) is half glucose and half fructose.

The best thing would be a high GI source of glucose. Maltodextrin being the best, with dextrose a close second. Fructose is the worst for post workout.

YatesNightBlade
06-22-2001, 02:00 AM
I have jelly sweets. there yummie. Full of dextrose Glucose syrup and a little sucrose.

Wizard
06-22-2001, 05:07 AM
The best is pure glucose!Like lucozade.(not 100%glucose though,but it doesn't contain sucrose which really sucks,as fructose does)

the doc
06-22-2001, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Cackerot69
Sucrose (table sugar) is half glucose and half fructose.

The best thing would be a high GI source of glucose. Maltodextrin being the best, with dextrose a close second. Fructose is the worst for post workout.

you can mix malto, dextrose and some fruit punch flavor in ratios that give you sweetness but not putrid sweetness. Malto has a very light sweetness.

tuttle
07-08-2001, 02:33 PM
What about ripe bannanas blended? arent they a good source of natural carbs (non commercial) for after a work out? :eek:

Cackerot69
07-08-2001, 02:38 PM
They are fructose.

tuttle
07-08-2001, 03:21 PM
why is fructose a bad idea after training? (explaination and source of this info e.g journal) Bannanas ripe have a G.I rating of 65-70! Athletes have always eaten them after training and during competitions including pete sampras and steve redgrave.
What else then natural (non supplement) could be used and does it need to be in a liquid form?
Thanks for your help
Tuttle:confused:

Cackerot69
07-08-2001, 03:54 PM
Because fruit = fructose.

In short, the fact is that fructose is four times as efficient at replenishing liver glycogen than glucose, which is not where you want your glucose to go post workout. You want to cram glucose into your muscles. If liver glycogen is full than there is only one place that fructose is going - Fat. Fructose has also been shown to slow fat burning by 38%.

As for studies, I posted one on another thread...you should be able to find plenty by doing a simple search on medline, pubmed, etc

Big Show
07-08-2001, 04:53 PM
I use Gatorade powder from my local supermarket

beercan
07-09-2001, 05:27 AM
I just use kool aid....works for me

Jane
07-09-2001, 10:55 AM
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

But I love fruit!!! I eat fruit after every meal. Is that really bad? Does it really slow fat burning by 38% and does it really turn into fat easily? I mean, I know it's not exactly high in protein, but I thought that it would be better to have chicken and cherries and broccoli rather than chicken and a potato or spagetti. Don't fruit have a lower GI? I'm a little confused by this muscle/liver glycogen stuff, would anyone be so kind as to explain it?

The_Chicken_Daddy
07-09-2001, 02:46 PM
Everybody: ignore cack when he says fruit is bad.

He's talking 'bollox'.

Wizard
07-09-2001, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Derek Cornelius
The story with fructose is not much better. Although it has a rather low glycemic index, it causes insulin resistance and other demonstrated health problems.Stay away with a 5-foot pole.
Also fructose can cause glycation up to 10 times faster than glucose, and increase triglycerides.

Jane
07-09-2001, 03:50 PM
Yes, but what does that MEAN in daily-life terms? What is glycation and triglycerides? :confused:

Cackerot69
07-09-2001, 04:04 PM
Carbs = Glucose

Stored Glucose = Glycogen

There are two places the body can store glucose. It can either store it in muscle or in the liver. Liver glycogen stores can hold about 100g of carbs. Normally, with carbs if liver glycogen is full then the extra carbs will be able to go to muscle glycogen where they will be stored in the muscle instead of fat. Fructose cannot be stored in the muscles, so if liver glycogen is full then rather than the extra fructose being stored in muscle it will go straight to fat.

All fructose is not necessarily turned straight to fat, but you can eat 4x as little fructose sugar and gain fat than if you ate glucose based carbs (just about everything except fructose, lactose is another exception). If you really want to eat your fruit then eat it for breakfast, because at this time liver glycogen will not be full and the fructose will simply replenish liver glycogen instead of being stored as fat.

Chris Rodgers
07-09-2001, 08:34 PM
Blackalpha- who the fock did you quote? I don't see his name even in this thread?


How about a malto/fructose mix after training?

Jane
07-09-2001, 08:48 PM
Ok...I think I understand that. Thanks! But what about lactose? I drink massive amounts of milk with my cereal. What happens to that? And don't liver glycogen stores get depleted? I mean, if I am hungry, doesn't that mean that I can eat a full 100g of carbs before the liver glycogen is full and the extra carbs go to muscle or fat? So if I ate lets say, a big salad, two chicken breasts, and fruit, would the liver be able to hold all the carbs of that lunch?

Cackerot69
07-09-2001, 09:01 PM
Lactose acts similarly to fructose, same deal really.

Liver glycogen does get depleted, but if you are eating every 2-3 hours it will stay saturated. It takes about 5 hours for it to get depleted if I remember correctly. If you're hungry then you need to eat, but that doesn't necessarily mean your liver is depleted of glucose. If you want to have a small piece of fruit with each meal it won't kill you...but don't go overboard with it. About your lunch, protein can be converted to glucose as well, how much gets converted depends on the situation. But, in general, that meal should be ok.

PeteO
07-09-2001, 09:22 PM
ok what about *beats dead horse* maltodextrin+whey in milk for after workout mix. Is the milk a bad choice? I am on a bulking cycle right now so i figure the milk would help.

Cackerot69
07-09-2001, 09:27 PM
That's a great post-workout meal.

Chris Rodgers
07-09-2001, 09:28 PM
What about me Cack?

Cackerot69
07-09-2001, 09:35 PM
Did anyone hear that?

PeteO
07-09-2001, 09:54 PM
I've heard that adding flax seed oil or UDO's choice (a flax and other oil blend) to an after workout shake or a protien shake in general will hinder protien absorbtion. Is this true? or would it be benefital to add it.

Cackerot69
07-09-2001, 09:58 PM
It'll slow the absorbotion a bit...enough to make a significant difference? I don't think so. 5-10g should be fine.

YatesNightBlade
07-10-2001, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by Cackerot69
. Fructose cannot be stored in the muscles, so if liver glycogen is full then rather than the extra fructose being stored in muscle it will go straight to fat.


Cack, of course the body cannot store Fructose. The Body must convert it to glucose FIRST. This is a slow process and is why it is acceptable for diabetics to eat fruit (this and the fibre aspect) as it does not cause a rapid increase in blood sugar. Fruit is not Evil.

IceRgrrl
07-10-2001, 07:35 AM
(Homer Simpson voice ) "MMmmmmm.....fruit....."

Can you tell I'm hungry? :p

Cackerot69
07-10-2001, 10:51 AM
That isn't the point.

Fruit is evil because it can only repleneish liver glycogen or it's stored as fat (the reason for this is because it is manufactured in the liver, don't ask me why that matters...doc can prolly explain it better than I). Glucose carbs can be stored in liver glycogen and muscle glycogen before than can be stored as fat. So, if you were to eat an all fructose diet VS an all glucose diet the fructose diet would make you a hell of a lot fatter.

Tryska
07-10-2001, 10:56 AM
but if you were a fruitarian, all your bodily secretions would smell really good....

allegedly.

umm....nevermind..that was just another one of those random bits of useless information.

:D

IceRgrrl
07-10-2001, 11:01 AM
If you were a fruitarian, would you ever get out of the bathroom?!?

Jane
07-10-2001, 11:01 AM
AAAh! Im so confused. :eek: So if fructose and lactose have to be converted to glucose first, before being stored in the liver or the muscle, then doesn't that make them even better because the body must work harder to convert, so your metabolism goes up and your blood sugar stays level? Doesn't that make an apple or a glass of milk better than a piece of whole-grain bread?

Tryska
07-10-2001, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by IceRgrrl
If you were a fruitarian, would you ever get out of the bathroom?!?

*lol* i'm presuming so, but the good thing is you would leave behind the subtle scent of roses....

Anthony
07-10-2001, 11:07 AM
Here's a simplified solution to ALL of your training woes:

Eat steak and squat.

Cackerot69
07-10-2001, 11:25 AM
Jane:


Originally posted by Cackerot69
That isn't the point.

Fruit is evil because it can only repleneish liver glycogen or it's stored as fat (the reason for this is because it is manufactured in the liver, don't ask me why that matters...doc can prolly explain it better than I). Glucose carbs can be stored in liver glycogen and muscle glycogen before than can be stored as fat. So, if you were to eat an all fructose diet VS an all glucose diet the fructose diet would make you a hell of a lot fatter.

The_Chicken_Daddy
07-10-2001, 12:48 PM
Eat fruit people.

Why take advice from a skinny lil' biatch like Cack?

Anthony
07-10-2001, 12:58 PM
Don't sweat the small stuff. Eating fruit isn't going to harm you, but like all things - do it in moderation.

I have no problem with being curious about the very minute details about this stuff, but too many people waste time on things that aren't going to make any noticeable difference in 5 years. Eat a balanced diet and exercise! Not rocket science!

Alex.V
07-10-2001, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Eat fruit people.


Is that kinda like the pod people? Only, they look like fruit?

Anyway, it's true that fructose is processed primarily in the liver and intenstines. It's lousy for replenishing muscle glycogen, and your body can only digest about 50 grams of fructose a day (I think that's the figure.)

So, take that for what's it's worth. Fruit ain't evil, but it shouldn't be a staple, either.

You might also be interested to know that fruits are not entirely fructose.

For an apple, approximately 1/4 of the sugar is glucose. An orange is 50/50, pineapples and plums are actually higher in glucose. Peaches are actually primarily sucrose, only 1/4 of their carbs are fructose or glucose.

Now isn't that just fascinating?

So shuddup and eat your fruit. Just not too much.

Cackerot69
07-10-2001, 01:05 PM
Yeah.

PS - 1000 posts.

Alex.V
07-10-2001, 01:08 PM
Spammer. :D

The_Chicken_Daddy
07-10-2001, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Belial


Is that kinda like the pod people? Only, they look like fruit?



Belial: No. Foo.

:D

Wizard
07-10-2001, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Belial

You might also be interested to know that fruits are not entirely fructose.

For an apple, approximately 1/4 of the sugar is glucose. An orange is 50/50, pineapples and plums are actually higher in glucose. Peaches are actually primarily sucrose, only 1/4 of their carbs are fructose or glucose.

Now isn't that just fascinating?

So shuddup and eat your fruit. Just not too much.
It's the best/most important post of the whole thread.The higher the gi of a fruit is,the higher glucose/fructose ratio it has.That's why many athletes tend to eat a banana after workout/competition.
The amount of fructose in watermelon is very small while in cherries is very high.So,eating a small amount of a hi gi fruit with some protein is best than a big amount of a low gi fruit alone.

Wizard
07-10-2001, 05:04 PM
Also,fructose added in snacks etc. is not fruit sugar and does not act the same.It has a higher gi because it's from corn starch.(most usually written as "high fructose syrup/sugar")

Jane
07-10-2001, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Blackalpha

It's the best/most important post of the whole thread.The higher the gi of a fruit is,the higher glucose/fructose ratio it has.That's why many athletes tend to eat a banana after workout/competition.
The amount of fructose in watermelon is very small while in cherries is very high.So,eating a small amount of a hi gi fruit with some protein is best than a big amount of a low gi fruit alone.

Best for what? Best for after a workout? What if you didn't workout but wanted some fruit, then what would be best?

the doc
07-10-2001, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Blackalpha
Also,fructose added in snacks etc. is not fruit sugar and does not act the same.It has a higher gi because it's from corn starch.(most usually written as "high fructose syrup/sugar")


The gi is higher because of its lack of fibre. Fruits are lower than this highly processed high fructose syrup because fibre in the fruit slows digestion and buffers insulin response

YatesNightBlade
07-11-2001, 02:27 AM
Why the hell was you Doc when I had a heated debate about this with that so called expert Miss Abs. I could have done with ya :)

beercan
07-11-2001, 05:23 AM
LOL

Who cares, it's not like anyone in here is going into the mr/ ms olympia...so your bodyfat gets increased by maybe a point....wtf

If you like fruit, eat it.

You only live once. If you allow for the extra calories, you can even dare I say, get leaner. :eek:

BTW, cack, you must be really ripped from eating no fructose or lactose.... ;)

YatesNightBlade
07-11-2001, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by beercan


BTW, cack, you must be really ripped from eating no fructose or lactose.... ;)

yeah Ripped Off !!!!

Alex.V
07-11-2001, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by beercan
LOL

Who cares, it's not like anyone in here is going into the mr/ ms olympia...so your bodyfat gets increased by maybe a point....wtf



but...but...I wanna look good for the girls....


:rolleyes:

IceRgrrl
07-11-2001, 09:31 AM
..and we appreciate your efforts! :D

SaintStephen
07-11-2001, 09:42 AM
Question.... if you are cutting and burning all the calories you eat anyway.. then wouldn't it not matter if it were glucose or fructose or whatever, since the calories will never be stored anyway?

tuttle
07-11-2001, 01:45 PM
Whats anyones opinion on MCT liquid in post training drinks. Its a fat but i have heard they are treated like carbs and digested very quickly.

ElPietro
07-12-2001, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by beercan
BTW, cack, you must be really ripped from eating no fructose or lactose.... ;)

Nah just constipated. :p

Cackerot69
07-12-2001, 12:45 PM
Haha, I'm getting there you fat midget.