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View Full Version : a way to combat saturated fat in the diet



bigdaddykrull
12-03-2002, 05:00 PM
....

Stray
12-03-2002, 05:20 PM
Of course there always the "not eating it" option... ;)

restless
12-03-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Stray
Of course there always the "not eating it" option... ;)

True, but saturated fat contributes to an optimal male hormone profile. I am yet to be convinced that saturated fat deserves the demonization it has been cursed with in the last few decades.

Saint Patrick
12-03-2002, 06:30 PM
I don't mind eating saturated fat, I just try to limit it somewhat.

LAM
12-04-2002, 02:59 AM
a high intake of HDL also helps to clear out LDL by carrying it to the liver where it can be metabolized

hemants
12-09-2002, 11:32 AM
"a high intake of HDL also helps to clear out LDL by carrying it to the liver where it can be metabolized"

I think what you are trying to say is that eating EFA's will raise HDL and combat the effects of elevated LDL.

Unfortunately, there are risks to high total cholesterol as well (ie. the ratio of HDL/LDL is most important within "normal" ranges but at some point, total cholesterol *does* become a problem).

As such it's best to eat only as much saturated fat as is unavoidable in the normal course of eating healthy foods.

"I am yet to be convinced that saturated fat deserves the demonization it has been cursed with in the last few decades."

What would convince you?

restless
12-09-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by hemants

"I am yet to be convinced that saturated fat deserves the demonization it has been cursed with in the last few decades."

What would convince you?

I'm not sure. A controled study done on a SIGNIFICANT sample of the population, with total control of what was being eaten (no trans or hidrogenated fats) with proper EFA's supplementation, around 30% of total fat intake in the saturated form and the rest in mono's done on a SIGNIFICANT lenght of time, NOT endorsed by the mercenaries of the drug industry would probably do. IF there was proof that there is a CAUSE-EFFECT between the intake of saturated fat and hearth disease (which I don't believe there is) then I might be convinced.

noraa
12-09-2002, 01:50 PM
Restless

You are probably looking for the best case rather the normal case (in western cultures). The association between saturated fat and CHD is quite commonly found, especially in the larger cohorts (think nurses health and the physicians study by Willett et al). THe association is generally with the specific fatty acids as well (the ones with a specific metabolic effect on the lipoprotein fractions), also with trans-fats.
N-3's fats in high doses can also decrease HDL cholesterol, but this effect is probably reduced by its effect on prostaglandin synthesis, thrombogenesis, anti-inflammatory etc effects.
In terms of public health, its correct to tell the 'population' to eat lower saturated fats. But at an individual level, it depends on current health etc.

AstronautJones
12-09-2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by stpatrick44
I just try to limit it somewhat.

I would think that this would be the most beneficial way of going about it.

restless
12-09-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by noraa
Restless

You are probably looking for the best case rather the normal case (in western cultures). The association between saturated fat and CHD is quite commonly found, especially in the larger cohorts (think nurses health and the physicians study by Willett et al). THe association is generally with the specific fatty acids as well (the ones with a specific metabolic effect on the lipoprotein fractions), also with trans-fats.
N-3's fats in high doses can also decrease HDL cholesterol, but this effect is probably reduced by its effect on prostaglandin synthesis, thrombogenesis, anti-inflammatory etc effects.
In terms of public health, its correct to tell the 'population' to eat lower saturated fats. But at an individual level, it depends on current health etc.

I see your point.

But what I'm not sure is to what extent has the research on this matter been corrupted by the lack of awareness the scientific community had for so long about the evils of tran and hidrogenated fats in diets? I mean, there are still many doctors and nutricionists recomending the crap supper market oils for their low saturated fat and cholesterol virtues, and guess what? CHD is still going up at all strenght. Maybe we've been looking for the wrong things? Anyway, I don't believe most of what the whores at the drug industry says, as far as I'm concerned they aren't interested in anything else other than parting us from our savings and keep us on all kinds of drugs. They're out to get us, that's for sure.

Stray
12-09-2002, 03:56 PM
They're out to get us, that's for sure.

outnumber

body
12-09-2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by restless


I see your point.

But what I'm not sure is to what extent has the research on this matter been corrupted by the lack of awareness the scientific community had for so long about the evils of tran and hidrogenated fats in diets? I mean, there are still many doctors and nutricionists recomending the crap supper market oils for their low saturated fat and cholesterol virtues, and guess what? CHD is still going up at all strenght. Maybe we've been looking for the wrong things? Anyway, I don't believe most of what the whores at the drug industry says, as far as I'm concerned they aren't interested in anything else other than parting us from our savings and keep us on all kinds of drugs. They're out to get us, that's for sure.

I see you like saying what nutritionalist recommend. then say people are still getting CHD etc.

But how many people do you think follow the recommendations?

Stray
12-09-2002, 04:18 PM
I thought I read somewhere that Saturated fats lower the thermogenic effect of meals by quite a bit.

:confused:

body
12-09-2002, 04:28 PM
i have read saturate have a lower thermic effect of the main three types of fat.

I read it in optimal sports nutrition by dr colgan.
I am not sure if he referenced the finding and to what degree the lower thermic effect was.

hemants
12-10-2002, 07:15 AM
"I'm not sure. A controled study done on a SIGNIFICANT sample of the population, with total control of what was being eaten (no trans or hidrogenated fats) with proper EFA's supplementation, around 30% of total fat intake in the saturated form and the rest in mono's done on a SIGNIFICANT lenght of time, NOT endorsed by the mercenaries of the drug industry would probably do. IF there was proof that there is a CAUSE-EFFECT between the intake of saturated fat and hearth disease (which I don't believe there is) then I might be convinced."

Seems reasonable.

The thing is that none of the correlations are 100%.

I believe that statistical significance has been clearly established between

(1) saturated fat intake -> elevated LDL cholesterol

and between

(2) elevated LDL cholesterol -> heart disease

Which of the two correlations above do you doubt?

Of course saturated fat intake is not the ONLY cause of an unfriendly lipid profile but I think that there is undeniable evidence that it is one of the primary causes; even more so than dietary cholesterol.

Additionally, for what it's worth, saturated fat intake is also a risk factor in most types of cancer.

restless
12-10-2002, 08:14 AM
Again, I doubt , given all the other variables are as stated in the post I wrote and you quoted, that saturated fat in reasonable quantities will lead to hearth disease, if it was so all mankind would be dead long ago.



Of course saturated fat intake is not the ONLY cause of an unfriendly lipid profile but I think that there is undeniable evidence that it is one of the primary causes; even more so than dietary cholesterol.


What do you mean? Cholesterol is mainly produced by the liver, it produces as much as 20 times what you get in diet.


Additionally, for what it's worth, saturated fat intake is also a risk factor in most types of cancer.

Not true, processed meats have been shown to be correlated to cancer, not saturated fats.

To quote Mary Enig, PhD

"The much-maligned saturated fats-which Americans are trying to avoid-are not the cause of our modern diseases. In fact, they play many important roles in the body chemistry:

Saturated fatty acids constitute at least 50% of the cell membranes. They are what gives our cells necessary stiffness and integrity.
They play a vital role in the health of our bones. For calcium to be effectively incorporated into the skeletal structure, at least 50% of the dietary fats should be saturated.38
They lower Lp(a), a substance in the blood that indicates proneness to heart disease.39 They protect the liver from alcohol and other toxins, such as Tylenol.40
They enhance the immune system.41
They are needed for the proper utilization of essential fatty acids. Elongated omega-3 fatty acids are better retained in the tissues when the diet is rich in saturated fats. 42
Saturated 18-carbon stearic acid and 16-carbon palmitic acid are the preferred foods for the heart, which is why the fat around the heart muscle is highly saturated.43 The heart draws on this reserve of fat in times of stress.
Short- and medium-chain saturated fatty acids have important antimicrobial properties. They protect us against harmful microorganisms in the digestive tract.
The scientific evidence, honestly evaluated, does not support the assertion that "artery-clogging" saturated fats cause heart disease.44 Actually, evaluation of the fat in artery clogs reveals that only about 26% is saturated. The rest is unsaturated, of which more than half is polyunsaturated.45

38-Watkins, B A, et al, "Importance of Vitamin E in Bone Formation and in Chrondrocyte Function" Purdue University, Lafayette, IN, AOCS Proceedings, 1996; Watkins, B A, and M F Seifert, "Food Lipids and Bone Health," Food Lipids and Health, R E McDonald and D B Min, eds, p 101, Marcel Dekker, Inc, New York, NY, 1996
39-Dahlen, G H, et al, J Intern Med, Nov 1998, 244(5):417-24; Khosla, P, and K C Hayes, J Am Coll Nutr, 1996, 15:325-339; Clevidence, B A, et al, Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol, 1997, 17:1657-1661
40-Nanji, A A, et al, Gastroenterology, Aug 1995, 109(2):547-54; Cha, Y S, and D S Sachan, J Am Coll Nutr, Aug 1994, 13(4):338-43; Hargrove, H L, et al, FASEB Journal, Meeting Abstracts, Mar 1999, #204.1, p A222.
41-Kabara, J J, The Pharmacological Effects of Lipids, The American Oil Chemists Society, Champaign, IL, 1978, 1-14; Cohen, L A, et al, J Natl Cancer Inst, 1986, 77:43
42-Garg, M L, et al, FASEB Journal, 1988, 2:4:A852; Oliart Ros, R M, et al, "Meeting Abstracts," AOCS Proceedings, May 1998, 7, Chicago, IL
43-Lawson, L D and F Kummerow, Lipids, 1979, 14:501-503; Garg, M L, Lipids, Apr 1989, 24(4):334-9
44-Ravnskov, U, J Clin Epidemiol, Jun 1998, 51:(6):443-460. See also http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-25775/
45-Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195 "

You believe who you want, to me, it's clear that there's more to these matters than we've been told.

restless
12-10-2002, 08:16 AM
That damned smillie shouldn't be there.

hemants
12-10-2002, 08:26 AM
"What do you mean? Cholesterol is mainly produced by the liver, it produces as much as 20 times what you get in diet."

That's exactly what I mean. Blood cholesterol is raised more by intake of saturated fat which is why dietary saturated fat is worse than dietary cholestrol in terms of producing an unfriendly lipid profile.

People often mistake what is ingested with what results in the body.

Case in point is Mary Enig, Phd. Just because saturated fat appears in our body around our heart and in cell membranes does not mean that we need it in our diet.

restless
12-10-2002, 08:59 AM
Saturated fat is not essential, like carbs and most of what we eat isn't. The only truly essential foods are EFA's and the essential aminoacids. No saturated fat in your diet will hurt your health by lowering testosterone.

Although I enjoy these arguments with you, I'm afraid they never have any results on either sides. We can throw references at each other ad infinitum but I wonder if either of us will ever change their stance. I highly doubt I ever will.

I do grant you that saturated fat might increase you HDL, if this is truly a problem given the rest of your diet is in check, I'm not sure. I'm inclined to think we've all been mislead by these damned blood sucking industries.

I rest my case.

hemants
12-10-2002, 09:24 AM
"Although I enjoy these arguments with you, I'm afraid they never have any results on either sides. We can throw references at each other ad infinitum but I wonder if either of us will ever change their stance. I highly doubt I ever will."

You may be right. The difference, however, is that I will change my stance instantly when I see credible information.

And it's LDL that saturated fat tends to raise more than HDL.

It's good to have a healthy dose of skepticism when information comes from industry but even a healthier dose of skepticism when it comes from websites that are only loosely based on studies.

Peace.

restless
12-10-2002, 09:54 AM
"You may be right. The difference, however, is that I will change my stance instantly when I see credible information."

No comment.

"And it's LDL that saturated fat tends to raise more than HDL.
"

True, my bad. I mix up the two on a regular basis.

hemants
12-10-2002, 12:32 PM
"And it's LDL that saturated fat tends to raise more than HDL."

True, my bad. I mix up the two on a regular basis"

So you agree that saturated fat tends to raise LDL but you're not convinced that elevated LDL contributes to heart disease?

restless
12-10-2002, 01:00 PM
I don't agree that saturated fat should be avoided, like I said, high safa intake usually goes hand in hand with high trans and hidrogenated fatty acid intake and virtualy no omega 3, undeer these conditions, it might be a bad thing that adds up to all the other damage, but to a health conscious bodybuilder avoiding saturated fat will hinder his gains.

Like I said before, untill one study comes out satisfying all the conditions I mentioned earlier and "proves" me wrong, I'm not giving in to the nutritional establishment.

hemants
12-10-2002, 01:40 PM
You've already said that you don't agree that saturated fat should be avoided. But you haven't answered the question as to which part of the link you disagree with. Since you agree that saturated fat raises LDL you must then disagree that elevated LDL contributes to heart disease must you not?

"to a health conscious bodybuilder avoiding saturated fat will hinder his gains."

This would imply that saturated fat is somehow an essential nutrient for a bodybuilder. Even the website that you get all your information from doesn't make this claim.

If you're talking about the complete avoidance of all foods that contain trace amounts of saturated fat then you may have a point but I see no reason for a bodybuilder or anyone else to choose whole milk over skim milk, or high fat meat cuts vs lean ones.

restless
12-10-2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by hemants
You've already said that you don't agree that saturated fat should be avoided. But you haven't answered the question as to which part of the link you disagree with. Since you agree that saturated fat raises LDL you must then disagree that elevated LDL contributes to heart disease must you not?






Sure, it seems to an indicator that one is in risk of hearth disease.
But like I said before, show me the research that suggests a diet with a well balanced fat intake(proper omega 3 to 6 ratio,bla bla....) with up to one third of safa causes hearth disease. If it was so the Enuiq would be long gone due to an epidemic of hearth disease, but never had any. With up to 100% of calories from animal sources in their diet it makes one wonder, doesn't it?


This would imply that saturated fat is somehow an essential nutrient for a bodybuilder. Even the website that you get all your information from doesn't make this claim.

Not essential, you will just gain more mass if you have a rreasonable amount of safa on your diet.

hemants
12-10-2002, 02:14 PM
"Not essential, you will just gain more mass if you have a rreasonable amount of safa on your diet."

Do you see any reason to substitute EFA's with saturated fat in order to gain more mass? ie. What is the unique mass gaining quality in saturated fat that other healthy fats don't have?

restless
12-10-2002, 02:31 PM
Don't know if this site is credible enough for you, but from the think msucle web site:


" By Thomas Incledon and Lori Gross
It has been speculated that the ratio of fatty acids may have some role on whether or not dietary fat increases or decreases T levels. A positive relationship between saturated fatty acids and monounsaturated fatty acids with T levels has been reported previously (19). The same data also describes a negative (or inverse) relationship between polyunsaturated fatty acids and T levels."


Go there and check it out. Testosterone levels dictate how much muscle mass your body can sustain, it's a no brainer.

hemants
12-10-2002, 02:57 PM
Thanks for the link. It seems interesting enough to investigate.

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/incledon/diet02.htm

If you read more carefully...

"Another important finding was that urinary excretion of T was much greater on the high-fat, low-fiber diet (6). Other studies have shown that on higher fat diets, urinary excretion of T is increased (10, 11) while vegetarian type diets may decrease the urinary excretion of T (9, 10, 11). This is an important point to consider in evaluating the level of T bioactivity in the body. If blood levels of T elevate and the excretion rate of T also elevates there may not be a net bioactive effect of T"

Also, the article also makes this claim which i'm not sure you would agree with (PRO = protein, CHO = carbohydrate)

"Diets with a PRO intake greater than the CHO intake lower total T levels, and may actually decrease the bioactivity of T in the body. Higher CHO diets (70% or more from CHOs) may increase T levels"

I don't know about you but it doesn't seem like such a no brainer after all, especially since even the article presents these as possible effects that require further investigation.

The conclusions of medical research on the effect of elevated LDL on cardio vascular risk are not so tentative.

restless
12-10-2002, 03:08 PM
"I don't know about you but it doesn't seem like such a no brainer after all, especially since even the article presents these as possible effects that require further investigation."

Of course, research always suggests but hardly ever proves anything. I now am gonna go into strictly empirical ground, I know, from personal experience that a low fat diet will kill your sex drive, I tried the only EFA's and monos diet and it sucked.

I think I said this before, I once believed in all the things you do, but a lot of info on the net made me change my mind, contrary to your belief I tend to do that quite often.

I am tired. I had a terrible night due to my asthma and have to sleep.

See you tomorrow.

hemants
12-10-2002, 03:10 PM
Gnite. Thanks for the healthy debate. :)

restless
12-10-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by hemants
Gnite. Thanks for the healthy debate. :)

Well, I have a feeling there will be quite a few more....