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InfinitePower
12-03-2002, 05:28 PM
I know getting a reply to this post is a long shot.

I am a 3rd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Doe. Ever since they made Sparring a Olympic sport Iv'e been sparring my butt off. Any way, in sparring, you need powerful kicks. And you need tremendous speed.
This is what I want to gain-

Speed and power in the following kicks:

Roundhouse(you know, the twisting your hip and bending your leg.....pretty common)

Back Spinning Heal Kick(doing a full 360 withough leaving the ground, slanting your body down, to kick higher)

Most importantly

Back Kick(doing a 180 with or without leaving the ground, similar to side kick, turning your hips, extending your leg forward, bending your bottom portion back)

This kick is extremely powerful. I hope there are kick boxers, or other martial artists who can help me.

So How do I make these 3 kicks more powerful? And Faster?

SaulDSL
12-03-2002, 07:09 PM
Squats low reps high weight

Rastaman
12-03-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by InfinitePower
I know getting a reply to this post is a long shot.

I am a 3rd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Doe. Ever since they made Sparring a Olympic sport Iv'e been sparring my butt off. Any way, in sparring, you need powerful kicks. And you need tremendous speed.
This is what I want to gain-

Speed and power in the following kicks:

Roundhouse(you know, the twisting your hip and bending your leg.....pretty common)

Back Spinning Heal Kick(doing a full 360 withough leaving the ground, slanting your body down, to kick higher)

Most importantly

Back Kick(doing a 180 with or without leaving the ground, similar to side kick, turning your hips, extending your leg forward, bending your bottom portion back)

This kick is extremely powerful. I hope there are kick boxers, or other martial artists who can help me.

So How do I make these 3 kicks more powerful? And Faster?


How do you make them more powerful and fast? Technique.

I don't know if you've been in tournaments before, but forget the fancy pancy kicks, those will only help you in getting your ass kicked. Work on your turning kick, your side kick, and your front kick (maybe some reverse side kicks as well). The most important thing in Olympic style is conditioning, so you better make sure you're in great cardio shape before entering any tournies!

Hit the skipping rope for more speed... and one more thing... you're a third degree and you're just now starting to spar your butt off!? tuttut

Majestic
12-03-2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by SaulDSL
Squats low reps high weight

Incorrect.

Unless you're doing explosive squats, with ultra light weight and two spotters, you're wasting your time.

You're going to be kicking someone, not making a powerful cut on the football field, or lifting someone over your head.

You'd be better off doing depth jumps/box jumps.

I don't want to explain depth jumps here, but I can tell you first hand, that single exercise increased my vertical the most, and brought the power to my legs back (I earned my black belt in Tang Soo Do at age 12, haven't been training in over a decade).

All the rim jumps, jump shoes, strength shoes, etc. in the world aren't going to give your legs as much "thrust" or "pop" as depth jumps. And you won't need a spotter....just some restraint.

You want a powerful, fast, and "twitchy" core, so that it doesn't seem like you're "gathering yourself" before you unleash a kick.

I would investigate some speed exercises for your lower back and abs.

Now go to the web and look up key words like, "martial arts" + "plyometric training"

Kick on, grasshopper.

PowerManDL
12-03-2002, 09:25 PM
You want those kicks to be better, you have to train them specifically.

You can't lift to make any movement better (unless its a weight training movement you're trying to improve).

Meat_Head
12-03-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
You want those kicks to be better, you have to train them specifically.

You can't lift to make any movement better (unless its a weight training movement you're trying to improve).


If he strengthened the muscles that are used in throwing a powerful kick, it would only make sense that it could potentially make the kick more powerful, of course assuming that his form and tecnique and everything are also being trained to the greatest degree. But if maxmal strength is the basis of all other strength(speed strength and starting strength in this situation), if it was increased he could kick faster and harder.

Of course there is no weight movement that simulates a kick. But if he did say powercleans to train his posterior chain, and maybe the glutes and lowerback were utilized in throwing a kick, those muscles would be faster/stronger and therefore the kick would be faster and stronger....

PowerManDL
12-03-2002, 10:13 PM
To which I say.....you can't lift to make a specific movement better :)

InfinitePower
12-03-2002, 10:19 PM
Iv'e been sparring for 7 years now. I got my black belt 5 years ago. I only meant that Iv'e begun trying harder, in sparring, since it happened. I have been to countless tournaments. I have 60 medals, 21 Gold, 30 silver, 9 bronze. I'm not a bragger, im very modeste. But I tell no lie, by saying that I am a really good Martial Artist. Since Iv'e joined, it's all come easy to me, and I can say with out hesitating that my technique is one of the best in my school.

That said. I have begun doing squats, with moderate levels of weight. I do leg extentions, maximum level. I do leg presses, as much as I can do.

Majestic, I would like to understand how exactly to do your jumps. If you canno't, or do not want to explain it here, please Private message me. Majestic, I really want to know.

Specefic targeting........well I'll try it out.

There are so many muscles working in 1 kick, I have practice kicks countless times....Im hoping weight training could help me even more.

How can you target all those muscles with weights? Unless you do several different leg excercises, would I be wrong to say...you can't?

PowerManDL
12-03-2002, 10:35 PM
Strengthening the individual muscles is the key, yes.

Squats and deads can strengthen them quite effectively.

However, he's more concerned with power and speed. You're correct in your assumption that increased strength will carryover into these qualities.

Lifting alone, without training the movements specifically and intensively, will not though.

Plyos.....can help develop reactive ability and aid in jumping, but I'm not sure how well they'd carry over to kicking.

ElPietro
12-04-2002, 09:10 AM
Hip flexors are the primary mover. If you want to be strong, train for strength. If you want to have a good kick, practice the kick. If you want to be a strong person with a great kick, strength train and practice the kicks you use. I don't know how you are asking these types of questions if you are so experienced. I am not very experienced and this all seems very clear to me.

epimetheus
12-04-2002, 09:39 AM
Makes sense to me that practicing kicks, doing plyometric training AND squats combined will be better than just practicing kicks. Sure, there may not be much carry over in terms of usable strength, but if there is some carryover, it is better than none. Not to mention doing squats will build up muscle mass which is a great padding and build bone density to help prevent against breaks. Saying squats wont carry over greatly so you shouldn't do them is foolish. Squats carry their own benifits aside from strength alone.

epimetheus
12-04-2002, 09:43 AM
Oh, forgot to add, as for explosive power, many powerlifting methods use techniques in all thier lifts to develops this. Check out westside barbell as an example. Explosive power is 50% of your lift, and that, as far as I can tell, does carry over.

PowerManDL
12-04-2002, 11:12 AM
Because its the bench press/squat that they're training for, not a kick. :rolleyes:

epimetheus
12-04-2002, 12:13 PM
Nice roll eyes, it really contributed alot to that expressive debunking of my statement.

So mr. powerman, how is training to get better at squats only good for getting better at squats with no carry over?

Mass, in physics is the contributing force to power and force. However, since we live in a gravitational well, our masses are not the ruling factor. Leverage is. You know what the whole muscular system is? One big ol freaking lever. Yeah, well lots of little ones really. If you have better levers, you have an advantage.

Take a kick for example. When your left leg hits your opponent, say in a side kick, It pushes against your mass, which is planted against the earth via your other foot. How much mass you can move with your leg depends on the leverage you have. If your leg (your lever in this instance) is stronger than the mass that you are kicking your lever does not fail you. The more leverage you have the better advantage you have.

Technique may be the contributing factor, but I would only say it is 75% of a kick, or even a punch. Strength in working with the laws of the universe (ya know physics), does help.

So, rolley eyes aside, do pray tell how this assumption is incorrect. Or is rolley eyes your only defense against my apparetnly preposterous statement?

epimetheus
12-04-2002, 12:15 PM
Practicing the kick would of course allow you to learn to utilize the full potential of the strength of your leg. I am not saying that squats alone will make you kick stronger, only that they WILL help combined with practice.

PowerManDL
12-04-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by epimetheus
So mr. powerman, how is training to get better at squats only good for getting better at squats with no carry over?

That's not what I said. Before you start running off at the mouth I suggest you comprehend what you're saying.

I said that developing power with squats won't translate to power in any other movement. Not that improving maximal strength with squats wouldn't carry over.

Mass, in physics is the contributing force to power and force. However, since we live in a gravitational well, our masses are not the ruling factor. Leverage is. You know what the whole muscular system is? One big ol freaking lever. Yeah, well lots of little ones really. If you have better levers, you have an advantage.

I do have a rather solid grasp of both basic physics and of biomechanics. Does this have a point?

Take a kick for example. When your left leg hits your opponent, say in a side kick, It pushes against your mass, which is planted against the earth via your other foot. How much mass you can move with your leg depends on the leverage you have. If your leg (your lever in this instance) is stronger than the mass that you are kicking your lever does not fail you. The more leverage you have the better advantage you have.

You do realize, based on your obvious understanding of the terms "force" and "power," that maximal strength is a completely different quality from speed?

Technique may be the contributing factor, but I would only say it is 75% of a kick, or even a punch. Strength in working with the laws of the universe (ya know physics), does help.

Read the above question.

So, rolley eyes aside, do pray tell how this assumption is incorrect. Or is rolley eyes your only defense against my apparetnly preposterous statement?

Well, since I wouldn't want to condescend by any means, lets define a few terms:

Maximal Strength: maximal isometric force that can be produced by a muscle.
Rate of Force Development (RFD): the rate at which force is developed in a movement. RFD is dependent upon the load being moved and the leverages of the movement (ie, the concepts of speed-strength and strength-speed).
Power: Rate of doing work, or force coupled with velocity. This is a different quality from RFD, but is still load and movement-specific, with optimal rates occuring between 50 and 65% of the 1RM in a lift due to the nature of the force-velocity curve.
Explosive Strength: The highest value of RFD in a given movement. Often sub-classified into starting-strength and acceleration-strength.
Reactive Ability: The ability to quickly stop and reverse an eccentric action.

Now with those definitions in place, one has to add that the force-velocity curve shows that as force increases, velocity decreases and vice-versa.

Additionally, each and every quality listed above is a separate, unique capability that has to be trained as such.

They all derive from maximal strength, however. Maximal strength is the singular quality that will carryover to all of them. The rest, however, are quite specific in their development, and must be trained as such.

You want a fast kick? A heavy squat won't ensure that. It gives you the *capability* of having a fast kick, but does NOT make it happen. To say that an explosive speed squat will carry into a fast kick makes even less sense. Both RFD and power development, as noted, are highly sensitive to both loading and movement specificity. A fast squat will NOT translate into a fast kick.

So yes, it IS very, very technique dependent. A heavy squat will carry over only in the sense of strengthening the muscles involved. A fast, powerful, or explosive squat will NOT, because it isn't specific to the movement.

Oh, and :rolleyes:

epimetheus
12-04-2002, 01:11 PM
The point being:

Me: Squatting adds benifits combined with proper training- strength, stability, padding, etc. Oh, powerlifters also lift for speed, I see no reason this should not carry over. (apparently wrong) I said this in two seperate posts.

You: (roll eyes) You stupid twit, you are wrong, they are training for better squats and benchpresses (and left out the best, deadlift). That is different from a kick.

Not refering to which post I was talking about I assumed you meant my whole post. Perhaps in your zealous glee at derision you just forgot to mention which statement of mine you were making fun of for being so obviously wrong. (If only us mortals were as divine)

Or perhaps I am misreading the whole roll eyes thing huh?


Did I say anywhere in my post that squats alone would increase speed of and in itself? Noo, I think I said that squats combined with practice (technique) will increase power. RFD. Speed and no force is NOT superior to equal speed and more force.

PowerManDL
12-04-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by epimetheus
The point being:

Me: Squatting adds benifits combined with proper training- strength, stability, padding, etc. Oh, powerlifters also lift for speed, I see no reason this should not carry over. (apparently wrong) I said this in two seperate posts.

You: (roll eyes) You stupid twit, you are wrong, they are training for better squats and benchpresses (and left out the best, deadlift). That is different from a kick.

I apologize if I didn't make it clear that I was referring to speed carryover. But it was that last, erroneous part of your post that I was referring to. As mentioned above, speed and power developed for squats will not carry over to another movement.

Not refering to which post I was talking about I assumed you meant my whole post. Perhaps in your zealous glee at derision you just forgot to mention which statement of mine you were making fun of for being so obviously wrong. (If only us mortals were as divine)

Or perhaps I am misreading the whole roll eyes thing huh?

My zealous glee at derision? Well perhaps if I meant to misconstrue my intent by using overly voluminous diction, I could see the point. However, all I noted was that this statement:


Originally posted by epimetheus:
Oh, forgot to add, as for explosive power, many powerlifting methods use techniques in all thier lifts to develops this. Check out westside barbell as an example. Explosive power is 50% of your lift, and that, as far as I can tell, does carry over.

....is incorrect.

The entire beef I had is what that single statement.

epimetheus
12-04-2002, 01:33 PM
Goes to show you that intelligence is no indicator of civility. (quite the opposite it often seems)
Good to know that a moderator on a message board that is apparently around to discuss and teach about weightlifting and training has free reign to post mocking vauge insults at newer posters instead of merely correcting them politely.

Or before your little roll eyes fiasco, did I say something to you to get under your skin? Probably not, your ego needed a bandaid, and I was around to cover the pus filled horror. Oh well, I admit that I am wrong, quite often, but that is how a person learns. What I don't need is some smarmy, assholic moderator mocking me and laughing at me while I am on the road to enlightenment.

I will take what little information I have, my open mind, and burning desire to learn elsewhere. Somewhere I can learn without derision from some meglomaniac self-hater that loves to make himself feel good by rubbing what I don't know in my face.

kAiXuan
12-04-2002, 02:29 PM
this is exactly why black belts dont mean sheeeeet, train to be good............not for some colored belt :D

Blitzforce
12-04-2002, 04:11 PM
full squats
snatch grip deadlift
power snatches
plyos
rotational strength
practise kicking a lot

Rastaman
12-04-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by kAiXuan
this is exactly why black belts dont mean sheeeeet, train to be good............not for some colored belt :D

:withstupi

Amen brother. I can't even begin to count the number of pathetic black belts I've seen.

PowerManDL
12-04-2002, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by epimetheus
Goes to show you that intelligence is no indicator of civility. (quite the opposite it often seems)
Good to know that a moderator on a message board that is apparently around to discuss and teach about weightlifting and training has free reign to post mocking vauge insults at newer posters instead of merely correcting them politely.

I have apologized. I fail to see the point in continuing this childish rant.

Or before your little roll eyes fiasco, did I say something to you to get under your skin? Probably not, your ego needed a bandaid, and I was around to cover the pus filled horror. Oh well, I admit that I am wrong, quite often, but that is how a person learns. What I don't need is some smarmy, assholic moderator mocking me and laughing at me while I am on the road to enlightenment.

Can we please cut out the melodrama? This is not the place for it. If you continue to have an issue with me, I suggest you address it with a private message.

I will take what little information I have, my open mind, and burning desire to learn elsewhere. Somewhere I can learn without derision from some meglomaniac self-hater that loves to make himself feel good by rubbing what I don't know in my face.
Making myself feel good by rubbing it in your face? I was correcting a mistake. And you're awfully touchy about a single smiley.

I have apologized for having offended you, and there is NO need to drag it out, and certainly not to this degree. You're more than welcome to continue posting here.

But do be warned that if you can't handle criticism, you won't last long regardless.

ElPietro
12-04-2002, 07:44 PM
PowermandDL you have offended me deeply with your conduct. I am Diego Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. :ninja:

PowerManDL
12-04-2002, 07:51 PM
*commits seppuku*

*becomes totally sweet*

Delphi
12-04-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by ElPietro
I am Diego Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. :ninja:

That was a sweet movie. Was he a ninja?

Maki Riddington
12-04-2002, 08:09 PM
Degeneration

InfinitePower
12-04-2002, 09:05 PM
I know 100% what you mean.

People are throwing away black belts, like they were frickin coupons! When I first started, a blackbelt.........was something sacred. It was the greatest thing. And you had to work....work.......work.....work... your butt off for it. The testings, were excrutiatingly hard. Now, kids......adults.......who plane and simply SUCK! Are getting black belts..........easily! Testings are so easy...any one can get a black belt. Back When I got one...we had to stay 24 hours over night, and train non stop. With out any food or water. Then and only then would we be tested......at our weekest point. Now...testings are 2 hours long! Pathetic is too good of a word.

Anyway, my rant is over...

I have practiced kicks all my life, I am good at them. Im looking for alternatives to gain even more power and speed. I just thought that this site would be excellent to try.

Majestic
12-04-2002, 09:47 PM
I have re-thought my "incorrect" remark to SaulDSL.

Doing 'something' is better than doing nothing, and if he chooses to do heavy squats with low reps, while continuing his speed training, then he indeed will have a more powerful kick.

I'm a believer in training explosively after watching a segment on Adam Archuleta a couple years ago. His progress is nothing short of ridiculous. They fasten this guy in a brace, and hang him (HORIZONTALLY) 8 feet up from the ceiling, and then release him.

Not only does he land on all fours, he "pops" up and lands in another position, almost like he's break-dancing. And the motherf*cker just got dropped from the ceiling!!!

Is he huge? No, in fact, he had to move from linebacker to safety to be able to play in the NFL. But this dude hits like a Mack truck, period! And he's only like 6 feet, 210 or something like that (I could be wrong).

At his training facility, they have a bench press "plate", as opposed to a bar, whereby he shoves it upward explosively everytime it comes down. It's much more relevant to football than throwing up a barbell, and praying your spotter catches it if you slip or get tired.

My whole point, which was probably poorly illustrated, is that training explosively is a must, whether it's with or without weights.

Rastaman
12-05-2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by InfinitePower
I know 100% what you mean.

People are throwing away black belts, like they were frickin coupons! When I first started, a blackbelt.........was something sacred. It was the greatest thing. And you had to work....work.......work.....work... your butt off for it. The testings, were excrutiatingly hard. Now, kids......adults.......who plane and simply SUCK! Are getting black belts..........easily.

I totally agree. Nowadays all it takes to get a black belt is money and a shoddy dojo. We have had quite a few students come to our school from others with all ranges of color belts and their technique is absolutely hideous. Needless to say, they don't stick around long when they realize they cannot live up to the proper standards of their 'level'.

Sayiajin Prince
12-05-2002, 02:44 AM
oh i didnt see this thread up till just now lol...

ok here it is, u need to do ployometrics for ur legs, i like doing jump squats (with wieght)
u also need to train ur obliques in 2 dfferent motions (oblique crunch, and twisting)

i find this to be usefull: lay down on the ground, stick ur legs str8 up and let them fall to one side. then contract ur obliques to bring ur legs over twards the other side.

i used to have a string (forgot where i put it) and i would tie it around my ankle and perform standing round kicks (using the front foot) this isnt meant to improve ur power, just techique and get a nuerological connection with the kick.

definately improve ur calve strength and explosive power with them, they are essential in kicking

if i remember anything else ill post it

jock
12-05-2002, 09:19 AM
When i was training in Taekwondo i used a lot of circuit training and polymetric jumping. To get the kick fast without telegraphing is by far the hardest thing to do. I found it had a lot to do with what was refered to as 'bound' or the ability to generate force from the ground and spring the leg up. To do this i held dumbells in my hands and did jumping squats. I dont really think weight training will help that much, after all you dont really want to make your leg much heavier by adding too much muscle.

BECOMING
12-08-2002, 06:53 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by InfinitePower
[B]Iv'e been sparring for 7 years now. I got my black belt 5 years ago. I only meant that Iv'e begun trying harder, in sparring, since it happened. I have been to countless tournaments. I have 60 medals, 21 Gold, 30 silver, 9 bronze. I'm not a bragger, im very modeste. But I tell no lie, by saying that I am a really good Martial Artist. Since Iv'e joined, it's all come easy to me, and I can say with out hesitating that my technique is one of the best in my school.


Your pretty much a badass dude. dont see why you would need any advice on this.

Lucian
12-08-2002, 09:46 AM
Power comes from the waist not the legs.
Power comes from angle of attack not just from speed.

But it depends, if you want to look powerful or want to actually be powerful.


If you want to increase your power, hit them at good angles, use your waist to generate force, perhaps training to strengthen your waise with help you with some of your kids like your roundhouse kick.

When you do the roundhouse to generate maximum power you want to twist and spin into the kid, most of the force should come from the spin and the leg should whip outward, thats the best i can explain with words, so the more strength you have in the waist the faster you can whip your leg, and its not just the motion but you also have to get them at precise angles, in sparinng I suppose you could practice your timing so you can catch people with the kick in proper timing, you can do this with sparring.

You also need to make sure your kicks are fast, so dont worry how they look or if your form is best, if you are trying to build knock out power its all about generating the highest amount of force with the least amount of movement, when you can generate enough force to knock a person down without using any hip action, then you can add the hip action and it should be enough to knock a person out cold, or break bones, and if you add precise angles and timing you can even kill a person with one kick.

Will it work in an actual fight? Depends, but in actual no rules battles, speed beats power, you dont have to use knock out power to win if you are just trying to spar, you need better timing, you need better defense and counter attacking to win fights.

Power in a fight is useless from what I knoow about martial arts, unless you are grappling and then power matters.

As far as Tae Kwon Do sparring, I only made it to green belt in tae kwon do, but I learned martial arts not for sparring but for street fighting purposes so my martial arts is fine tuned to work in real life. In real life there are ways to beat speed and ways to beat power, you must know how to beat someone whos faster and stronger and you must assume everyone you fight is either faster and stronger or just as fast or just as strong, whoever has the best strategy will win the fight regardless of their physical abilities, someone whos stronger and faster you can beat by using superior technique, technique can render speed and power useless, such as taking their balance from them, or letting them tire themselves out, if they are fast taking them to the ground and grappling, or simply unexpected movements or attacks to gain little advantages like pokes to the eyes if they are stupid and dont guard themselves properly, or faking them out so you can keep them nervous and unable to think.

I dont know if i would consider tae kwon do and sparring to be martial arts, I think I'd consider that a sport, any advice I gave applies only to martial artists.

Lucian
12-08-2002, 09:55 AM
Rastaman, belts dont mean a damn thing in martial arts, maybe they did hundreds of years ago but they dont mean a damn thing now.

I could personally train a normal guy to beat your average black belt tae kwon do fighter simply because tae kwon do as its taught today, its not taught to teach you how to defend yourself, its like a sport, like amateur wrestling, with rules and regulations.

Theres no rules in a real fight, no ones going to let you pull a high kick in a real fight, ive never once seen anyone use a fancy kick in a real fight and the reason is real fights are all about timing and strategy, when you throw a kick or a punch in a real fight, missing that kick or punch is the end of the fight with you on the ground getting stomped on.

In real fights theres a center line which you must protect, your nose, your stomach, your balls, there are no cup protectors, other areas you must defend outward such as your eyes, your knees, and the way to defend your knees is to not commit too much with your punches or your kicks, the way to defend your eyes is to know how to cover up when being attacked, and know how to properly protect your eyes when grappling.

People will not stand there while you do round house kicks, and even if you can do them very well it only takes a side step and a low kick or punch and you'll lose your balance and be on the ground. Belive me you do not want to lose your balance or be on the ground in a fight. You lose your balance and someone is an experienced fighter who can grapple and they might get a choke on you and thats the end of the fight, fall on the ground and once againn if they can grapple its the end of the fight, if they are stronger than you its the end of the fight, and if they can strike you with kicks its the end of the fight.

Theres no ref to step in to stop them from beating you to death either.
I suggest people watch real fights on UFC and see what happens to tae kwon do experts who try roundhouse kicks.

Or just try it next time you get into a fight and see.

Lucian
12-08-2002, 09:56 AM
Also Majestic, kick power doesnt come from squats, where did you hear that crap?

Squats wont improve his kick unless its maybe his axe kick or side kick

Majestic
12-08-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Lucian
Also Majestic, kick power doesnt come from squats, where did you hear that crap?

:rolleyes:
Lucian, you need to chill out and settle down.

Firstly, I'm not the one that suggested squats, I'm the one that said depth jumps. I altered my response later, (basically apologizing to Saul) saying that heavy squats would be fine, so long as speed training was incorporated.

Depth jumps are plyometric, explosive training which many people have used to increase the perceived power of their kicks. Is it optimal? Who knows?

The guy said he wanted a more powerful kick, ok? He said he wants to add more power, so that's what we're trying to get to the bottom of.

Squats build your glutes, back, hams, thighs, and quads. Those are the most important muscles in the back kick and side kick. You don't generate any speed in those kicks by "twisting" or "spinning". Actually, there is power generated during the spinning back kick, but most of the "oomph" is coming from the upper and lower leg exploding outward.

Even so, I'm not the one that recommended squats, unless they were done *explosively*.

Depth Jumps are the exercise that helped established, lifetime athletes (Allan Houston and Shane Battier) add 11 and 13 inches to their vertical, respectively. These were guys who had already jumped all over the gym all of their life, yet Arnie Kander (Detroit Pistons trainer, 41 years old with a 39 inch vertical leap) helped them change the way their body reacted during explosive activity.

I'm a formal martial artists who increased his leg power just by dabbling with depth jumps and plyometrics for a mere month or so. Gee, maybe that's why I *suggested* depth jumps, and plyometric training to the guy? Especially since the phrase he used was, "....and most importantly, the SIDE kick...."

Watch your tone.

JohnCollins
12-09-2002, 06:22 AM
1. I'm troubled by the lack of respect shown for a 3rd dan by supposed other "martial artists". Yes, there are a bunch of schools which mill black belts, but there are also a lot which still train hard and demand students earn the belts. From now on, I'm going to refer to you UFC freaks as street fighters, not martial artists. You'll probably like that because you feel you have found the holy grail for street fighting anyway, and nobody in a traditional martial art could fight their way out of a paper bag. Without exhibiting the qualities of respect and humility, I don't think any fighter is a "martial artists" no matter whos a$$ thye can kick. Enough of that rant. I feel better now.

2. Truth is TKD sparring olympic rules is a sport--so is boxing. Most traditional martial artists today do train self-defense techniques, and guess what? They look exactly like the ground fighting, joint locking, krav maga stuff you street fighters practice. I don't know any traditional schools which teach that Chuck Norris cyclone kicks are for anything but the movies. Honestly, you street fighters don't know the meaning of the word art. It's practiced to help one gain control over one's body, to improve the mind/body connection, for mental discipline, because the techniques are difficult and beautiful. Just because a martial artist doesn't want to fight all the time doesn't mean they can't fight. Honestly, the hubris of the street fighter crowd is growing increasingly tiresome. Frankly, I see most reality based schools as being more commercial than the traditional schools. There are good ones, I know, I don't want to over generalize.

3. Stop criticizing an advanced martial artist for asking a question on this board when he's a 3rd dan. He came here because there are knowledgeable people who know about body mechanics here, probably more about that than he does. That's all.

4. And to your point, I'm not nearly as experienced at this as you are, so I don't necessarily "have the answer", but two thoughts come to mind. The plyometrics folks, I believe are on the right track only because the articles I've read about olympic training by olympic TKD coaches emphasize that. Lots of jump squats, lots of jumping back and forth over cones or heavy bags, that sort of thing. Lifting will help just like it does for baseball players, basketball players, hockey players. . .just because it's good for you. But the "tweak" for your sport is probably lots of plyo drills. The second thing that comes to mind is what my instructors keep telling me. To develop speed you need to concentrate on relaxing until the point of impact. I don't do this well, I am too tense and that slows my kicks down. People that have mastered this are truly amazing fast, though. I have no idea how to "work on relaxing" except to concentrate on it a lot in your kicking drills.

I've found that exercises around the hips has helped my kicks. We get on the floor on hands and knees and bring our bent leg out to the side like a dog peeing on a fire hydrant, sometimes with a round kick movement on the end. Then we do those butt-blaster things the ladies like for nice butts. From the same position, kick straight back and up. Standing we do a lot of standing on one leg and circling our knee in the air to open the hip joint up. After a little of this kind of stuff, you get a nice burn in everything around the hips, butt and lower back.

Hope this helps, sir. And please don't mind the braggadocious street brawlers here. There are also some very knowledgeable ones IMHO also, who have trained both traditional and more street oriented styles and they have a more balanced attitude. ElPietro is one for instance, who I think sees value in lots of different styles and always has something interesting to add to my thinking. Having an open mind is a very good thing in the martial arts. There are a lot of closed minded brawlers here, too, however, and I wish their street fighting schools would incorporate some of the respect, humility and other codes in their training. They're pretty good folks who you'll come to enjoy on other topics, however. It's a great board and I very much enjoy the brawlers in general, too, except when they're being closed minded on martial arts topics.

Epimetheus, we kid each other around here a LOT. Read for a while then relax, will ya. PowerMan's right. You're WAY too sensitive to last long around here. Watch all the sh*t I'll take for this post. You learn to look forward to it! :D

BECOMING
12-09-2002, 07:38 AM
3. Stop criticizing an advanced martial artist for asking a question on this board when he's a 3rd dan. He came here because there are knowledgeable people who know about body mechanics here, probably more about that than he does. That's all.

Was that aimed at me? I apologize if it came off like criticizm.

Also, i was wondering. In your opinoin do think what the guys do in the ufc is not a martial art. if it is and organized way of fighting aimed at a specific purpose with its own unique moves dose that not make it a martial art?

i realize that it may look brutal but those guys put alot of time, effort and detication into what the do just like anyother martial artist to at least some degree. do you agree or disagree?

Lucian
12-09-2002, 09:02 AM
by the way I respect the "traditional" arts as well as the street fighting arts, the problem is in the USA most people dont even know the traditional art, Karate in the USA is not the same as the Karate taught in japan, unless you have a really GREAT teacher.

The more popular the art is usually the less quality of techniques you learn, alot of arts which not many people know about arent popular but you'd be able to actually use it in a fight as well as learn the art of it simply because its not made into a sport.

UFC fighters are mostly wrestlers and grapplers who use forms of jujitsu and wrestling, UFC is limited because its fighting in a cage and there are rules so I could not consider this to be street fighting, The best example of a street fighting art is Jeet Kune Do, bruce lees art, the goal of Jeet Kune Do is to teach you the intercepting fist.

Wing Chun is a good street fighting art as well, Kickboxing is also very good on the streets.


The goal of a street fighting art is to teach you to defend yourself without form so you can adapt faster, the goal of Karate in tournaments as a sport or Tae Kwon Do is form, balance, and speed.

As far as spirtual development that depends on whos practicing the art not the art you practice, some arts have deeper focuses than others like Tai Chi, but almost all of the arts deal with Chi/Qi in some fashion, and teach respect but it really depends on you, and on your teacher.

I'm not trying to disrespect a 3rd Dan blackbelt, but just from my experience most American 3rd Dan black belts are not legit, not because they dont train hard but because the art is so watered down at this point that its rare to see someone who was taught the true art and not just the moves.

ElPietro
12-09-2002, 09:09 AM
In my personal opinion, you don't know what you are talking about.

It's great that you can talk about style this, and style that, but let me tell you that a punch is a punch. If I smack you good in the face, does it matter if I learned it in Japan, or the US or wherever else on the planet?

I also think you have a very childish grasp on Bruce Lee's concepts. It's very simple, but you seem to think it is something else. I don't really care, but just thought I'd chime in, as you seem to put a lot of effort in your posts, but you aren't really saying anything.

InfinitePower
12-09-2002, 06:28 PM
I have practiced, and I believe advanced my speed, power, technique to the best of my ability. I am very good. O yea, Im not an American.

I have tried, several, almost all of the techniques mentioned by some ppl who responded to this thread.

I simply thought, perhaps bodybuilders, might know something I didn't. I was looking for a rare response, before the thread started I knew it would be bashed, simply because a high ranking black belt asked such a question. Most of the things mentioned I know, but some things like Depth jumps, and squat jumps stood out to me.

I will keep those of you who wish aprised to my progress of being a sparring champion. Thank you.

Majestic
12-09-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by InfinitePower
Most of the things mentioned I know, but some things like Depth jumps, and squat jumps stood out to me.

I will keep those of you who wish aprised to my progress of being a sparring champion. Thank you.

You can PM me anytime and tell me how it's going. I'll live my martial arts life vicariously through you, like some sick-minded football Dad.:cool: :D

Just joking. Seriously though, if you stick with the plyos, shout me a holler in the future and tell me about your progress.

Maki Riddington
12-09-2002, 08:13 PM
I for one would be interested in hearing your progress. It's funny, that a man of your stature gets chastized for asking a question because he is being open minded enough to show that even he can learn a thing or two. It's a respectable move on your part.:)

ElPietro
12-09-2002, 09:36 PM
Just to clarify, my comments were directed at Lucian, not the starter of the thread.

Maki Riddington
12-09-2002, 10:59 PM
I know big guy.:)

JohnCollins
12-10-2002, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by BECOMING
3. Stop criticizing an advanced martial artist for asking a question on this board when he's a 3rd dan. He came here because there are knowledgeable people who know about body mechanics here, probably more about that than he does. That's all.

Was that aimed at me? I apologize if it came off like criticizm.

Also, i was wondering. In your opinoin do think what the guys do in the ufc is not a martial art. if it is and organized way of fighting aimed at a specific purpose with its own unique moves dose that not make it a martial art?

i realize that it may look brutal but those guys put alot of time, effort and detication into what the do just like anyother martial artist to at least some degree. do you agree or disagree?

I don't remember who it was that I was aiming that at, but your apology is nice.

Now I'm a little worried about how my posts are perceived, because I have tremendous respect for UFC fighters and just about all styles. I respect the work the dedication, the discipline that goes into training. My point was that (and this is just my opion) a martial art is more than learning to fight. I'm a pretty good shot, but my shooting is a martial skill it's not art.

To me a martial art is much more than just learning to fight. It involves learning life principles that can be applied to other aspects of your life. It involves learning things like humility, loyalty, and respect in addition to the discipline and perseverance you get in any martial discipline. It involves becoming a better member of society, it has to involve some art to it. Being able to jump up and do a double kick board break with the holders standing on chairs is totally useless as a fighting skill, but it is beautiful to watch and a very difficult skill to learn. Kata (hyungs) are that way. And folks who don't think kata can help with fighting skills don't understand kata. They think it's like dancing. It's more than that. It's more indirect than sparring, but it can help.

UFC stuff is a martial skill, IMHO, for which I have tremendous respect. However it is a fighting skill, and lacks the other attributes of a martial art I described above. What irritates me is that the folks who get into it really disrespect the traditional arts, when many of them are quite deadly. And they pooh-pooh the art and personal development aspects of it as extraneous and unnecessary. And they think it's useless for defense.

Those of us in traditional styles study the same da*n self-defense moves the UFC folks do! I'm gonna get my a$$ kicked by a boxer if I try to box with him in a ring, even though I practice some boxing drills to round out my self-defense skills. That doesn't bother me. What I want to know is how to kill (or maim) a hijacker or a guy trying to box me on the street. You UFC folks underestimate the deadliness of some of the traditional styles (provided, of course, the school is truly traditional and not a belt mill). Today many "martial arts" have evolved into sports, but they started as martial, i.e., military and fighting and killing arts. They still work just fine, thank you very much.

I don't disrespect the fighters. I respect everything about their training. I'm after something more, however. While I hold good fighters in very high regard (if they aren't a$$holes), I don't respect them in the same way I do a truly great martial artist. The "pure" fighting styles seem to turn out more than their fair share of braggadocious big mouths who disrespect any other style, I've noticed, though. They may do great in the ring. Any hoodlum trained that way better think twice before messing with a "traditional" martial artist with the correct mindset, however.

I highly recommend the January issue of Black Belt for discussions on this topic. The mag is not great, sometimes it it's a series of "info-mercial" like articles, but this issue has a lot on this very topic. It's the best issue I remember in a long time. January 2003, on newstands now.

Thanks. I do respect you fighter guys for your skill, and I apologize if anything I said came off as criticism of your skill. That wasn't my intent. I do think you underestimate some traditional arts and should be a little less, uh, dismissive I guess, of other ways of training.

I do think full contact has tremendous benefits, also. I just choose to not train that way for a variety of reasons. Injury avoidance is high on the list. Believe me, however, a guy who is fast in point sparring and who can speed break 3 boards and who knows enough to not use fancy stuff on the street has a very good chance of winning a "real" fight. You'd be surprised.

Lucian
12-10-2002, 10:33 AM
"but let me tell you that a punch is a punch. If I smack you good in the face, does it matter if I learned it in Japan, or the US or wherever else on the planet?
"

A punch is not just a punch, there is a proper way to punch, and then theres the way the majority of people punch, the wrong way.

Yes I know alot of bruce lees teachings, heres a quote.

"Empty your mind; be formless, shapeless. Like water.
Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup.
You pour water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle.
You put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Now water can flow or creep or drip --- or crash!
Be water my friend."


What hes trying to teach or explain is, you must know how to adapt to any situation, a true martial artist is not a robot. You cannot just know the moves, or know set forms and techniques, you must be able to adapt and flow, this is something which can take years or a lifetime to learn, bruce lee was a master at this, sure some people may have known more moves than him or had better form than him but what makes things effective is your ability to adapt to whatever you face.

Its deeper than just fighting, this applies to life in general, a person who adapts to situations like water adapts to its surroundings will be better off than a person who is well trained but cannot adapt.

I' m not going to try to pretend I know everything there is to know about martial arts, but I will explain the proper way to punch based on technique, just because you may know the technique doesnt mean you'll be a good fighter however.


For anyone interested in learning the techniques http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/theory.asp

The center line theory.


To explain, the proper way to punch is like what someone above addressed, you do not want to tighten your fist until the moment of contant, because loose muscles are faster than tight muscles.

You can also gain speed by punching in a straight line, no curves in your punches, no hooks, all of your punches should be in a straight line ---------O like this, your arm should not be perfectly straight, you should kept your arm slightly bent \/


Speed comes from angle of attack as does power, you do not have to be super strong to knock a person off their feet with a punch, and you do not need to have strong arms to punch hard, so building your biceps or whatever is not going to make you punch harder or faster, a punching bag or sparring partner, and proper technique will improve your punching.

ElPietro to show off this technique Bruce Lee would often demonstrate the 1 inch punch, it proves power does not come from arm strength.

This is the point I'm trying to get accross, you can use all your arm strength but have bad balance and your punch wont be as powerful or as fast as a direct straight line perfectly balanced coordinated punch. Also where you hit them matters, a hit directly in the center of their gravity does more damage than a hit to the sides of their gravity, I dont know if im good at explaining but the closer to the center you hit the more damage it does.

This is something I've actually practiced in sparring, and I can tell you that it does work. If you doubt me, next time you are sparring, punch them in the center and see how effective it is.

Lucian
12-10-2002, 10:42 AM
By the way John, Wing Chun is a traditional style.

Theres two sides to everything, the techniques, the stances, the philosophy, and then theres the sparring, the training, the self defense.

Its a combination of both, self defense and self improvement.

Some people understand only the self improvement aspects, thats very good of them, but can they still call it a martial art at that point and not a sport? Thats the question.

"Martial" Art, Fighting Art, Kung Fu.

Lucian
12-10-2002, 10:55 AM
InfinitePower, to Improve your kick and punch speed the best advice I can give you is to improve your balance and practice. They have dummys which allow you to practice your techniques, as far as tae kwon do goes, the teacher I have only taught me the basics, we went through the movements over and over until they became second nature, I only learned how to punch fast and kick faster through sparring on my own, through other arts such as wing chun, by watching more skilled fighters to learn little techniques and tricks they use to generate quickness.

As far as the body and being in shape, I've been in better shape than this and I wasnt as fast as I am now simply because my balance was bad, my technique was wrong etc, also theres alot of muscles which you cannot really see or develop through normal weight training, but heres what you might be able to do, they do have leg weights which you can strap accross your legs, practice your kicks with these across your legs, kick in slow motion and focus on your balance and not your explosiveness.

You can also do the same with hand weights, boxers often do this or wear heavy gloves to increase their punching speed, underwater punching and kicking also helps if you have a pool. Focus on your timing and your stances so you are able to deliver a punch from the shortest distances, good footwork helps.

Thats all I know for improving speed and strength, it works for me.

http://martialartinstitute.com/Assests/images/wai%20po%20tang%20centre%20line%20punch%204.jpg

And here is an example of Wing Chun in motion http://www.sifugrados.com/mcvideos.shtml

Speed comes from position and angle of attack as you can see in the videos.

Sayiajin Prince
12-10-2002, 10:58 AM
hey um, anyone see UFC 40 when this one guy (cant remember who it was) knocked out the guy by kicking him in the leg...



just would like to let u know that not everyone in ufc is anti-hi leg kicker

ElPietro
12-10-2002, 12:06 PM
Why are you writing 18k words to repeat basic premises that have already been stated in here. He did not ask, "what is the history of wing chun." I don't need translations from Bruce Lee's book. Sure he was a pioneer, but he's dead and old news now. I don't need to read anything about him to learn how to fight.

Some of what you recently said makes sense, but then you are just reading verbatim from books by others and typing it in. But then you will try to form your own thoughts and say something like this:


"People will not stand there while you do round house kicks, and even if you can do them very well it only takes a side step and a low kick or punch and you'll lose your balance and be on the ground."

This leads me to believe you haven't ever sparred, and probably haven't payed much attention to any mma type of fight ever. This is sorta what they drill in traditional arts classes. You all get to stand in a line in your bow stance, and one guy kicks at you, and you slide step out of the way and do the counter attack of the day. This works nicely when lined up, and choreographed in class at 1/100th speed. But I haven't seen anyone with the ability to dodge a proper roundhouse, and then move back within range to strike. So maybe you should do a bit more sparring at closer to real speed. How many matches have you guys watched where a guy will just keep roundhousing the guys thigh, like chopping wood until he charges, or falls over.

Maybe you should watch some more Jackie Chan/Jet Li movies to add to your arsenal of "moves". :rolleyes:

Lucian
12-10-2002, 01:34 PM
I sparred every day from Age 15 to 18, thats 3 years straight of sparring on a daily basis.

We sparred full contact, outside in public places, no gloves, full speed(although not full force).

Roundhouse kicks are EASY to side step, theres a basic rule in martial arts, theres ranges.

Punching Range.

Kicking Range.

Grappling Range etc, I'm not sure if this is exactly how to explain it because I'm not a Martial Arts teacher, but there are ranges.

Someone who throws a round house kick is in kicking range, unless they catch you totally off guard you can usually KNOW from common sense you are in range that they can catch you with a roundhouse kick, and you should also know they are setting up for such a kick because its not the kinda move that you can use in the first move of a fight and just knock a person out, its the kinda move you pull on someone after you've knocked them off balance and theres a delay.

When you are fighting someone you watch their knees and their elbows for movement, thats the only way i know how to explain, also you follow your instincts, after sparring enough you know almost by instinct the ranges. Someone throws a round house kick, you dodge it, this is what is taught, I dont really know how to explain range but if you spar enough you know how to side step just out of their range, I've done this. You cannot block a roundhouse kick, you must dodge, dodging is a basic technique in any martial art, it should be one of the first things they teach you.

Punching range you can usually sidestep with about one step, kicking range around 3 steps, you step backwards and inside of their kick so that you are on the side of them thats wide open.

Step back a few steps, circle them to the side and kick their knee, usually they will lose their balance.

I've never been hit by a roundhouse kick, never in sparring. If i see someone attempting to throw a round house kick I stay just out of range and I wait for an opening to close the gap and get into the punching range, if my timing is perfect it all happens in a few seconds, if my timing is bad then I get hit by their follow up attack.

And I'm not saying avoiding roundhouse kicks are easy,you need good footwork and know your ranges but you act as if someone can just pull a roundhouse kick off in an instant, they have to get in a certain stance and practically announce they are about to through a roundhouse kick, and when you see them positioning themselves you dont just stand there you back up and adapt to them.

Perhaps i havent sparred with any really great Martial Artists, I'm not a UFC champion, but I've never see any of the great Martial Artists say that high kicks are useful, they all seem to frown upon them, in the UFC the champions never use roundhouse kicks, the one time I saw a guy use a roundhouse kick, he was beat, This was when Royce Gracie beat Ron Van Clief, one of the first UFCS, the guy had every belt imaginable and was in perfect shape, threw a round house kick, Royce Gracie side stepped the kick and closed the gap in a matter of seconds, took him to the ground and made him tap out.

If one of the best Martial Artists in the world cannot win the UFC with a roundhouse kick why should newbies likee us even dare to try to use roundhouse kicks?

I suppose if you really know what you are doing, you can catch a good martial artist with a roundhouse kick, but I'm not going to take such a risk because it leaves a huge opening.

JohnCollins
12-10-2002, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Lucian
I sparred every day from Age 15 to 18, thats 3 years straight of sparring on a daily basis.

. . . .

I've never been hit by a roundhouse kick, never in sparring. If i see someone attempting to throw a round house kick I stay just out of range and I wait for an opening to close the gap and get into the punching range, if my timing is perfect it all happens in a few seconds, if my timing is bad then I get hit by their follow up attack.



Almost 1,000 days of sparring, and not one opponent ever landed a roundhouse kick on you.

:bow: Master Lucien, you need to open a school immediately. That's an incredible feat. I've seen my master caught by a roundhouse by one of his 3rd dans--several times. You owe it to the world to teach!

Rastaman
12-10-2002, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by JohnCollins
1. I'm troubled by the lack of respect shown for a 3rd dan by supposed other "martial artists". Yes, there are a bunch of schools which mill black belts, but there are also a lot which still train hard and demand students earn the belts. From now on, I'm going to refer to you UFC freaks as street fighters, not martial artists.

Yes, I think you should arrange a meeting with Royce Gracie to inform him that he is a street fighter and not a martial artist. You talk about having an open mind about martial arts, yet you refer to those who admire UFC in a derogatory tone.

2. Truth is TKD sparring olympic rules is a sport--so is boxing. Most traditional martial artists today do train self-defense techniques, and guess what? They look exactly like the ground fighting, joint locking, krav maga stuff you street fighters practice. I don't know any traditional schools which teach that Chuck Norris cyclone kicks are for anything but the movies. Honestly, you street fighters don't know the meaning of the word art. It's practiced to help one gain control over one's body, to improve the mind/body connection, for mental discipline, because the techniques are difficult and beautiful. Just because a martial artist doesn't want to fight all the time doesn't mean they can't fight. Honestly, the hubris of the street fighter crowd is growing increasingly tiresome.

TKD sparring olypmic rules is a sport, but that is strictly the WTF style. ITF TKD focuses more on what would work in a real fight.
I can't help but wonder what makes you think a martial artist can't also be a street fighter? You seem to define a street fighter aso someone with a lack of appreciation for the 'artistic' aesthetics, and for the traditional values of the martial arts. I see a street fighter as someone who knows how to fight and can succeed in a no-rules environment. I have known a few martial artists who I would also consider 'street-fighters.' Also, unlike you, I find the 'hubris' of the street fighter crowd beneficial to martial arts. I respect 'fighters' who care about what WORKS, and I think the growing appreciation for MMA has resulted in more well rounded training in the different arts and has resulted in the progression of fighting.



Hope this helps, sir. And please don't mind the braggadocious street brawlers here. There are also some very knowledgeable ones IMHO also, who have trained both traditional and more street oriented styles and they have a more balanced attitude. ElPietro is one for instance, who I think sees value in lots of different styles and always has something interesting to add to my thinking. Having an open mind is a very good thing in the martial arts. There are a lot of closed minded brawlers here, too, however, and I wish their street fighting schools would incorporate some of the respect, humility and other codes in their training.

I also think any person who trains fighting should see value in all styles, however, I have trained in four different dojos in three different disciplines and have seen quite a few egotists and a$$holes in all of them. These were very well credentialed 'traditional' schools, Hapkido, Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, and ITF TKD, the type of schools that you laud. Since you seem to respect traditional credentials, I have also competed and placed in one of the biggest mixed martial arts tournaments in Canada. At the same time, I think there are quite a few streetfighters out there who would hand a 3rd Dan his ass, if that 3rd Dan had not trained in 'street fighting' and grappling, something a traditional TKD or Karate black belt would not have done back in the day.

That said, I don't believe you should be sticking your nose up at anybody for the type of training they do, and that goes for those who stick their noses up at traditional martial arts dojos or those who stick their noses up at 'streetfighting' schools. I also believe that there are quite a few who come to martial arts schools to learn to fight, not necessarily to learn age-old values that traditionally came with this, and I am one of them. You may find this wrong, but that is your opinion and I do not share it.

Your post was typically diplomatic, especially at the end, but I just wanted you to keep something in mind; subtle 'braggadocious' traditional martial artists are no better than blunt 'braggadocious' street brawlers. Good luck in your training.

[/B]

ElPietro
12-10-2002, 08:22 PM
I think we are talking about different round house kicks. You are talking about the sissy traditional art kick, which isn't designed to even do much damage. For that kick, you go up into a 3 point stance, and snap your leg out. I am talking about the muay thai roundhouse, or swing kick, which is all one motion, swinging your leg like a baseball bat, straight and extended from the hip, much like a punch is thrown, only you plan to kick right through your opponent, there is no snap. If you miss the arc of the kick forces your opponent back, and you just spin back into stance. I have not witnessed any other kick that generates as much power and do as much physical damage. Much different, and if you think that is easy to sidestep perhaps you should go teach every pro fighter in the world, because you know something everyone else doesn't. Also, please don't lecture on basics, your posts aren't actually informative, so I hope you don't think you are actually tutoring anyone here.

Go spar full contact with a thai fighter, and when your broken ribs heal, and your injured leg does as well come back and talk about range. Oh and go watch some matches as well...while you heal up of course.

Lucian
12-10-2002, 09:52 PM
Muy Thai is a street fighting art, I dont know it, but I know it works on the street because its been used against me.

As far as high kicks, I had problems with the knees and elbows, not the high kicks you mention.

I have an idea of the kick you are talking about, and I wouldnt call it a complete roundhouse kick, I believe I actually know how to do the kick and yes its a fast hard kick but I assumed you meant a traditional roundhouse kick.

Theres problems with that kick as well, it is harder to stop and I suppose you could use it, but as far as Muy Thai goes, its a totally different world from Kung Fu, Muy Thai is effective because its about power and strength, the problem with Muy Thai is how do you beat someone bigger and faster? Its sorta like boxing.

While I've never been hit by the kick you are talking about, I know the kick you are talking about, like I said I'm not in the UFC, I havent sparred with a Muy Thai fighter yet, if I did have to spar with such a fighter I'm sure there are techniques to deal with that kick.

In every martial art each move you make leaves you open, the reason you want to attack in a very direct quick fashion is because it leaves you less open to counter attacks, fancy kicks may work for a Muy Thai fighter who has mastered these kicks, just like if I were fighting Mike Tyson I might have problems due to his hand speed and power, but each move has a counter move, and each style has its weaknesses. If I were going to get into an actual sparring battle with a Muy Thai fighter and I were caught with these kicks you mentioned, I'd learn from this and adapt.

Muy Thai is good for sparring, but seriously there are some deadly techniques that could stop a Muy Thai kick boxer in seconds if this kick boxer misses one of these kicks.

If i were fighting don the dragon wilson or benny the jet i'd certainly get my ass kicked, but If I'm fighting just a normal kickboxer, I think i'd have a good chance of winning, these fancy kicks you mention, Van Damme can do these kicks, just because they can be done or even used to knock a person out doesnt mean you can walk up to a person and just kick them. I've seen Muy Thai and I respect it as a good street fighting art, the only problem i have with Muy Thai is strength and speed does matter in Muy Thai, It doesnt matter in Kung Fu.

Do you practice Muy Thai or something?
Tell us about Muy Thai, yes I know my lectures about Wing Chun cant really teach someone Wing Chun, you cannot learn Wing Chun from a lecture, you have to spend hours practicing, sparring, developing balance, etc but considering the Guy who wanted to know how to increase his speed is 3rd Dan Blackbelt, I think he could at least learn how to modify his training to perhaps increase his speed and power.

InfinitePower
12-10-2002, 09:58 PM
Although I do break boards doing 360 back spinning kicks jumping over 9 people, and flying 540 round house kicks. No one uses them in sparring. In Demonstrations perhaps. The most "Fancy" Kick iv'e done, or seen, is a 180 back kick. The jumping, spinning, and leg extention creates devastating power. If you land one, your in good shape.

Oh ya, I will keep those of you who wished to know my progress updated. Although reports will be wide spread, you can count on them.

ElPietro
12-11-2002, 09:10 AM
Hmm..let me see. Where did I mention high kicks? High kicks are useless unless it's some finishing strike and your opponent is already in a daze, or his hands are down. Second of all...where do you get the notion that muay thai is a street fighting art? That is the worst misunderstanding of the art ever. Thai boxing is a ring sport, and since it's inception as an art, has always been 100% a ring sport. It is not self defense. It can be used as self defense, just like training as a boxer can teach you to defend by just plain knowing how to fight, but neither of these "sports" is geared towards self-defense.

I don't think you undersand very much about muay thai. You mention "fancy" kicks. Let me be the first to inform you, that the word "fancy" would never apply to muay thai in the slightest. That is the point of "sport" fighting. When something is a sport, you do exactly what you need to do to win. So in fighting, things boil down to very simple strikes that work. No time wasted learning 1,001 kicks, when you will only use 2, or 3 at most. Then you drill those 2 or 3 kicks for years and years. But the number one precept of muay thai, is conditioning. Be tougher, than your opponent. This is just like boxing. You learn your combos, but you don't waste time on other "fluff" moves. The rest of the time is spent conditioning your body to take hits, and conditioning yourself to deal out punishment.

As for a block to the thai roundhouse, I have seen 10 page threads on other martial arts sites by traditional martial artists debating how it can be done. There is a whole lot of shin to shin contact, which is why any pro thai fighter will have shins like steel. That is why conditioning is important, because you accept the fact that you are going to get hit, and it's basically you getting hit and hopefully being tougher than the guy in front of you.

Deadly moves, pressure points, sure they work if you can get your opponent to stop and allow you to hit a point on his body less than a tenth of an inch in diameter. I'd rather just be able to knock the person out, and then I can walk away, or my deadly move would be to throw his knocked out ass off a bridge if I needed to.

I have trained in some kung fu, only about a year, and I enjoyed it, and I respect it, but it isn't as simple as, this works no matter how big or strong your opponent is. I did the drills, and half the crap wouldn't work on me as I was much stronger than my partner. So if I resisted they couldn't execute.

Also, it's a bit ludicrous to claim you spar "everyday" full contact for 3 years. Unless you are saying you have numerous injuries, broken bones, strains, etc, I don't know anyone, pro or otherwise, that spars on a daily basis. But again, you know and can do things other pros can't, so maybe you should start teaching the best fighters in the world.

Lucian
12-11-2002, 10:29 AM
As far as sparring everday goes, read carefully, I never said I sparred full force. Full speed and full force are not the same, we sparred to simulate reality, not kill each other.


Also in kung fu you can beat a bigger guy if your technique and balance is right, the guys you trained with were beginners so of course they couldnt stop your power. Tai Chi works because it redirects your energy, Wing Chun works because it intercepts your attack while taking away your balance, no matter how big or strong you are if you dont have your balance you will fall down, and no matter how fast you are if your attacks arent direct you'll be hit first.

The concepts do work, it just matters whos applying them. Yip Man the Wing Chun master was an old man, very very skinny and weak beating up young guys like you. This is the diffrence between Kung Fu and Muy Thai, you cannot be a good Muy Thai fighter if you are an old man.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/ipman.htm

ElPietro
12-11-2002, 02:01 PM
So maybe in 40 years you will be able to beat the 15 year old girl in our class then, as you will finally have mastered your chi. Watch more TV, it'll keep you out of fights.

Lucian
12-11-2002, 03:26 PM
Maybe you are right, Maybe it will take 40 years, but the fact is, When i'm 80 years old and some young guys try to jump me and rob me, I'll be able to defend myself.

jock
12-11-2002, 07:50 PM
Just to but in on this interesting debate. Lucian has made some very interesting points. Particularly in regard to different styles. Martial art should be about improving oneself throughout ones life, which is why Tai Chi and Wing Chun are considered 'higher' art forms. As has been mentioned after years of 'hard' styles your body will become injured and you will no longer be able to compete as in UFC or the likes.

Tell me Lucian, do you train in Wing Chun?

Anyway, before you guys go on arguing about which style is the best or who can beat up who, mediate upon the words of a famous martial artist 'there is no such thing as a segment of totality'.

Sayiajin Prince
12-11-2002, 09:32 PM
i want watch a clip of u guys fighting eachother...

Lucian
12-12-2002, 05:05 PM
I did train in Wing Chun, I'm thinking about getting back into my training if I have the time and money to do so.


No I dont want to fight anyone, Just because I know Martial Arts doesnt mean I can still fight, I havent trained regularly or sparred on a regular basis for years. Also I dont want to fight unless its neccessary because Its against my belief system.

I will spar with anyone who wants to spar, sparring and fighting are not the same, and I dont really like to spar with Muy Thai fighters because they are the most difficult to spar against, you can forget about trying to block their moves because you'll break your bones if you try, you have to have suprior timing, the punches are easy to deal with but I'm not confident that I can stop the kicks because my timing is off.

The "soft" arts are useful in self defense just like the "hard" arts, the soft arts work via confusion, manipulating their balance etc, in order to be good at Wing Chun you must practice alot more than you would have to practice to use boxing or muy thai because muy thai and boxing are simple in terms of the moves, once you learn the moves, Wing Chun, Akido, and some of these others arts however require precise timing, precise stance, precise movements and even if you know all of the techniques and moves if you havent practiced in a while your stance and timing will be wrong and you might get hit.

To compare styles, if you watch boxing, Roy Jones Jr or Sugar Ray Leonard are what I'd consider soft fighters in that they beat you with their timing, they keep you off balance, and they manipulate and confuse you.

Mike Tyson, Riddick Bowe, George Foreman, these guys come straight at you and want a slug fest.

I'm not a small guy, but in fighting I truely believe the goal is to defend yourself with the least bit of contact, you never know who you will fight, you might have to defend yourself against a woman, an older person, a younger person, a family member, etc, do you really want to knock everyone out or be able to disable a person without harming them?

Do you have the option to disable a person without harming them in the hard styles like Karate, Muy Thai or Boxing? Or is the only option here to knock them out? Your philosophy has alot to do with the art you choose to master as well as your intentions.

Lucian
12-12-2002, 05:13 PM
Also I dont think either style is best, Just one style requires you to be bigger, stronger, faster, I could make a good boxer, or muy thai fighter, in fact I know boxing already and I could easily learn the muy thai kicking techniques, the reason I dont want to use muy thai is not because it doesnt work, it works very well for self defense, I just fear that when the time comes to fight someone whos bigger, stronger and faster that Muy Thai will become useless. Just like boxing is useless if you are a light weight going up against a heavy weight like Mike Tyson.

The only way you can beat bigger fighters is by your technique, strategy and intelligence,

JohnCollins
12-12-2002, 09:23 PM
Rastaman,

I must be a horrible communicator.

I don't disrespect any full contact fighters, especially the Gracies. Where did that come from?? I've always admitted that full contact fighting styles will make someone an effective fighter faster than traditional styles. I do not argue that traditional styles are more effective at making people fighters.

I have basically two points. The first is that many of the posters here who practice the newer, full contact styles are too dismissive of the traditional arts. They exhibit a hubris that makes them disdain more traditional forms of training and they assume they will always beat the traditional martial artist. They assume that because we practice flashy techniques we think they'll work in a real fight. Wrong. They assume because we practice flashy stuff, we do not practice more effective stuff. Wrong again. They assume that all of a sudden, after thousands of years of martial arts, their guru woke up and discovered what worked in a blinding flash like Paul on the road to Damascus, and everyone who came before them was wrong.

Your fighting styles are effective, and they'll turn out better fighters faster than traditional arts will. I grant that. After a longer period of training, the traditional martial artists can catch up, however, and many are quite deadly. Many are not, especially if they come from a belt mill, but I've met so many truly effective fighters in tradtional styles, that you don't admit that's possible, I find irritating.

My second point is that some people who fight very well indeed are not "martial artists". This is a game of symantics, that's all. I'm defining a martial artist as one who, in addition to working on fighting well, finds it important to also develop some of the traditional values of the older styles. That doesn't mean my definition is right, it's just my opinion. I believe true martial artists must have the discipline and perseverance stuff down, but they should also focus on developing the qualities of loyalty, respect for others, courtesy, self-control, and (the one most often lacking, IMHO) humility, focusing on developing those traits at the same time one works on fighting skill make one a "martial artist" as opposed to a "skilled fighter". That doesn't make the skilled fighter any better or worse than the martial artist, and the skilled fighter may actually beat the martial artist in the ring. I simply prefer martial artists as people as opposed to simply skilled fighters.

Rastaman, I've never been dismissive of UFC fighter's skills, I've never been dismissive of the more practical fighting schools. I highly respect the skills of those that train in them. I get irritated with their constant chest pounding and saying there's no value in traditional martial arts training, that's all. I don't think practical fighters need to stop what they're doing and start doing flashy techinques for "art" or start practicing kata or anything like that. Many practical fighters exhibit many of the characteristics I've arbitrarily defined as "martial arts" characteristics. I'd just kinda like to stop reading all the posts by some of them that just sound like "Mine's bigger than yours" taunting.

What set me off in this thread is that I felt there was too much disrespect for the 3rd dan that started the post and I would have preferred less condescension from some of the posters here who happen to not be from more traditional styles. I suspect I'll see another post here to the effect that, "Well I'll probably kick that 3rd dan's ass, so why should I respect him, huh, huh!?" and I should probably just give up this debate.

JohnCollins
12-12-2002, 09:38 PM
Received from Rastaman, in a PM:

"Personally, I found your post quite arrogant. Dismiss people for their attitudes, not for the style they train."

That was my intention, to dismiss people for their attitudes, not for the style they train in. I apologize if that was how I came across. Rastaman, I suspect we might not disagree that much. There are plenty of traditional martial artists who are great street fighters, and plenty of street fighters who are truly great martial artists in every sense of the term.

I dislike arrogant martial artists or street fighters of any style, and I respect and admire those people who train hard in whatever style and who value the nobler character traits a martial artist should exhibit. The fact that I enjoy the art aspects of some things in my style that aren't necessarily effective on the street does not make me or my chosen style any better than any other.

I have, I'm sure, over-generalized in this thread. I know several very effective street fighters who don't train in a more traditional style, but who are great "martial artists" I respect and enjoy being with very much. This is definitely about people and not styles.