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Tank23
12-07-2002, 02:28 AM
hey all...i'm cutting up at the moment with a CKD.

I'm on the 6th day so far, my carb up day/weekend. I just want to clarify something.

Lets say I was eating 1800 calories during the week, and less than 50g of carbs. Then on the weekend do I add the 500-600g of carbs onto the 1800 cals, as all the carbs will pretty much go towards refilling glycogen stores.

_OR_

do i cut down cals...so that including the carbs i eat a total of 1800-2000 cals?

bradley
12-07-2002, 06:00 AM
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22807&highlight=ckd

Read this.

Tank23
12-07-2002, 11:43 AM
i already read that....that doesn't explain what i want to know

Shao-LiN
12-07-2002, 12:09 PM
Actually, it does. I believe you should be eating close to maintenance or over it for a carb up. And you will rearrange your diet so that carbs/pro/fat make up around the ratios presented in the link he provided you.

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=45

Blood&Iron
12-07-2002, 07:06 PM
Here's something I sent someone via email awhile back. It might be of some help. You should be able to find more info by searching here on the forums and on MFW. But this covers the basics. I don't think you'll go too far wrong by following this plan.



Anyways, as to refeeds, I have to be honest that I haven't done a lot of reading recently. I've been sorta reverting to my natural state on idiocy on all subjects lifting/dieting related. I can give you my personal take/experience, which isn't completely backed up by science(although, when I was refining things I was constantly reading stuff by McDonald, Par's articles, a few abstracts/studies) Basically, at 200lbs you are where I was when I was doing my refeeds. So, here are my recommendations which you can take or leave:
1)The Ministry of Fitness article allows WAY too much fat IMO. Since your insulin/blood glucose is gonna be jacked through the roof, any little bit of fat you eat is gonna have a good chance of being stored. I tried to keep mine under 10%--usually it came in around 8-9%(which for me---and you--means about 40g or so)
2)The MoF article doesn't have nearly enough calories or carbs. Ignore their recommendations. I know you already think their example is too high in calories, but trust me it's on the low side. I would not say I have a fast metabolism(in fact, I'd say the opposite), but I had no troubles with 7500-8000kcal over two days. I would aim for at least 500g of carbs or more for your refeed. I believe their's at least one study which look at these sorts of levels and found no fat gain. Remember glucose oxidation is gonna be hugely ramped up. If you keep your refeed from 24-36 hours(and fat low), you'll body will burn off most of the extra calories anyways--and of course this is what's going to upregulate leptin(i.e. glucose metabolism)
3)I found my best results cames when I had my refeed start the day before my workout, and continue on after it. So, my refeeds were 1.5days long. They were, I now believe, possibly a bit too frequent, but even that I'm not completely convinced of. I'd say listen to your body to determine the frequency you require. At your bodyfat, I'd say at least once every 5 days or so. If you have shorter duration ones as Par suggests(which I tried and did not personally work for me) you'll want to have them more often.
I'd say start with a single day refeed and adjust from there. If you do that here are my recommendations(assumign you lift in the morning).
1)Have a regular preworkout meal--i.e. small amount of fat, some complex carbs and protein
2)After your workout start pounding down the carbs. I dunno how easy/difficult it is to get low-fat stuff in Britain, since Europe has never had the low-fat mania that's in the US. The easiest and probably most effective way(but not very fun) is to subsist on protein shakes and maltodextrin/dextrose. It'll help you to keep fat down plus it'll allow you to consume a huge amount of carbs without feeling full before you hit your targets. Kids cereal, as you already know, also works fairly well, but even though it has little fat, it does add up. Towards the evening, I'd switch to spaghetti or something like that--things with fiber(although minimize it during the earlier part of the day), a little fat, and stuff that's lower glycemic so you don't crash as badly the next day. AlsoI also found ALA helped immensely from keeping me from feeling fat and bloated(don't know if this translated to less fat gain, but it made refeeding much more psychologically acceptable--feeling fat makes it difficult to keep eating) I took about 3g on refeed days, reasonably evenly divided. My general macros for a single day would be something like:
Calories: ~3500kcal
Carbs: 600g/30g(all the fiber in the evening)
Protein: 200g
Fat: 40g

Hope that's worth something.

pat s
12-07-2002, 07:37 PM
50 grams of carbs is way too much unless youre checking youre urine with ketostix and youre in ketosis even after eating.i wish i could eat 50 g of carbs a day on a ckd(i sometimes go out of ketosis after a big protein shake due to glucogenisis).and for your carb up 500-600 g of carbs is about right but if you add it too the 1800cals you were already eating(most of those calories were coming from fat if i understand your post).avoid fat as much as possible during your carb up.fat is only fattening in the presence of insulin.some parting advice would be to indulge a little bit in your favorite foods but remember a controlled carb up is essential to the success of a ckd

pat s
12-07-2002, 07:42 PM
i forgot to add that 2 grams of alpha lopoic acid(not all at once)the day after your carb up and you can get back in ketosis in about 24 hours

Blood&Iron
12-07-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by pat s
avoid fat as much as possible during your carb up.fat is only fattening in the presence of insulin.
The first sentence is true. The second is not.

Tank23
12-08-2002, 01:45 AM
All your posts were very informative, I've seen where i've gone wrong this first week. I didn't control my carb up too well, I kinda went crazy with the carbs. On the first day I ate about 4000cals total (i weigh 165lbs), so that's a bit much for me. Also, I didn't keep fat intake low enough.

For my carb up next week I'll be sure to do it right. I'll also have to lower my carb intake as was suggested by pat.

I still don't understand if the 500-600 grams of carbs is added onto my 1800cals, or if it's part of the 1800cals???

pat s
12-08-2002, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron

The first sentence is true. The second is not. no,it is true.a person with type 1 diabetes will continue to burn fat stores even on a high fat/high carbohydrate diet because because their pancreas has stopped producing insulin.they can lose 40 lbs in a month regardless of their diet.

Shao-LiN
12-08-2002, 08:49 PM
hehe.

Blood&Iron
12-08-2002, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by pat s
no,it is true.a person with type 1 diabetes will continue to burn fat stores even on a high fat/high carbohydrate diet because because their pancreas has stopped producing insulin.they can lose 40 lbs in a month regardless of their diet.
Gee, you got me.

Ever hear of a little thing called acylation stimulating protein? Look it up.

EDIT: Here I was nice:
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/full/274/26/18243

pat s
12-09-2002, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron

Gee, you got me.

Ever hear of a little thing called acylation stimulating protein? Look it up.

EDIT: Here I was nice:
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/full/274/26/18243 nope you got me.youre going to have to translate that study to me brother.i didnt realize people needed a Phd to go on a diet.the little that i able to interpret said that insulin inhibited lipolysis which is about as close to anything resembling my post there.all sarcasm aside i would really be interested if someone could put that study in laymans terms.i admit ive never heard of acylation stimulating protein.i think my quote about fat only being fattening in the presence of insulin came from the NHE book.im not an authority on keto diets but i research any changes to my routines before i attempt them and i did have decent results with my ckd.i do think as a rule of thumb thats more true than not minus all the other hormonal influences on fat storage.

bradley
12-09-2002, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by Tank23

I still don't understand if the 500-600 grams of carbs is added onto my 1800cals, or if it's part of the 1800cals???

You will definetly be eating more than 1880 cals. Youl will need to keep your carbs high and fat low with a moderate amount of protien.
So maybe something like this:

carbs 500g--2000cals
protien165-- 660cals
fat approx 10% total calories

You will want to experiment with varying amounts of carbs during your carb ups to see what works best for you. Those amounts were for a 24 hour period.

Blood&Iron
12-09-2002, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by pat s
i would really be interested if someone could put that study in laymans terms.

I selected that study mainly because the full text version was freely available, and not because it was the necessarily the most appropriate.

Background:
1) Fat must first be broken down to into free fatty acids (FFA) and glycerol before the body can utilize it. This occurs due to the actions of hormone known as hormone sensitive lipase (HSL), and is referred to as lipolysis.
2) FFA then enter into a common FFA pool after which they can either be oxidized (burned for fuel), be redepositied as fat (re-esterfication) or be used as substrates for the building of other tissues.

If you reread just the abstract with this information in mind, you should be able to get the gist of things.

Though I think, in general, he is a moron, some respect John Berardi. Here's a quote from him:

http://www.testosterone.net/articles/225fat.html

Before we move on, though, I want to pacify the science savvy out there. I've simplified matters here for explanatory purposes only, since nutritional science is wrought with great complexity. One example of this is the fact that insulin is not the only regulator of fat storage. Adipose tissue can be stuffed full of fats and carbohydrates in an insulin independent manner via a hormone called "ASP" or Acylation Stimulating Protein. This hormone doesn't need insulin to make you fatter. Rather, it's released from fat cells directly in response to blood chylomicrons (pre-packaged fats) and is responsible for increased triglyceride synthesis in the adipose cells. Basically, ASP works for fat storage like insulin works for carbohydrate storage.



And some threads on MFW:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=acylation&meta=group%3Dmisc.fitness.weights

Marcel
12-09-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron

Though I think, in general, he is a moron, some respect John Berardi.

:D