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Tank23
12-10-2002, 11:41 PM
Hi...
I've just started a new job for the summer. I'm working in a liquor distribution warehouse. Basically what I do: I get an order, then I go around the warehouse on an electric pallet jack, and get the items which have been ordered by the company. I have to lift the boxes off the pallets in the aisles and put them onto my own pallets on my pallet jack. Usually the boxes weigh between 10-20kg.
Once I finish the order, i get another one. So I'm doing that all day for 8 hours.

At the moment I'm cutting. I weigh 70kg. I'm doing a CKD. I was eating 1800cals, but since starting this job i've upped the cals to around 2300 or so.

What I want to know is....how many cals do u all reckon I use in 8 hours while doing this job?

I don't want to lose too much or any muscle due to being in too much of a deficit...or for any other reason. Will the fact that i'm on a CKD cause any muscle loss coz i'm not taking in any carbs?


Also....this job requires heaps of lifting. I've been coming home sore every day so far. Will doing all this lifting at work cause me to lose muscle in any way, coz I am doing it all day?

The job has affected my training, I'm doing HST and I've been having to postpone workouts so that I can recover fully as I think it would be mega overtraining to do all this repetitive lifting at work then train mon-wed-fri after work.

-Tank

bradley
12-11-2002, 04:02 AM
I think it was wise to increase cals since beginning your new job. I would keep a close eye on my weight loss and then determine from there if cals should be dropped anymore. I would think about maybe switching over to a more standard diet (40/30/30) while still creating a caloric deficit for cutting.

Tank23
12-11-2002, 11:25 PM
how come you'd think about switching over to a more standard diet? is the CKD no good for what i'm doing?

-Tank23

LAM
12-12-2002, 12:26 AM
or just go isocaloric

Tank23
12-12-2002, 02:34 AM
LAM: can you answer my previous question for me please:

is the CKD not good for my lifestyle?

-Tank23

bradley
12-12-2002, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Tank23
how come you'd think about switching over to a more standard diet? is the CKD no good for what i'm doing?

-Tank23

Since your job already requires lifing which would deplete what small amount of glycogen you have in your muscles and when on a CKD there would be no way to refill that lost muscle glycogen until the carb-up. This will more than likely cause your workouts to suffer, as you have mentioned. You also mentioned that you are performing HST which would be harder to do on a CKD to begin with. Most people perform a depletion workout and then two workouts on the days following the carb-up when using the CKD diet. Let me ask you this. Why are you so insistent on using the CKD?

Tank23
12-13-2002, 02:55 AM
Bradley, I want to do the CKD because I've read that it can really speed up fat loss, plus I really like the idea of carbups, it'll help to keep you on your diet. Also, without carbs I won't get as much cravings. And another thing, since I've been doing a CKD, everytime I see a carb snack food that I may normally eat and cheat with, now I know I absolutely can not touch carbs till the weekend or it may screw up my diet, that rules out like 99% of junk foods, therefore I eat pretty clean most of the time on a CKD.

I hope that all made sense.

I'm also changing my training style to two workouts the 2 days right after my carb up. I'll do something like an upper/lower body split. If I'm training on Monday and Tuesday (or sometimes wednesday if i'm too wrecked from work on a tuesday), I don't think low glycogen levels towards the end of the week should be a problem?

What will happen if I totally run out of glycogen due to all the lifing done at work? Will my body cannabalise my muscles for energy?
If the 'no glycogen' is a problem, maybe I can do a mini carbup midweek?

bradley
12-13-2002, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Tank23
Bradley, I want to do the CKD because I've read that it can really speed up fat loss, plus I really like the idea of carbups, it'll help to keep you on your diet. Also, without carbs I won't get as much cravings. And another thing, since I've been doing a CKD, everytime I see a carb snack food that I may normally eat and cheat with, now I know I absolutely can not touch carbs till the weekend or it may screw up my diet, that rules out like 99% of junk foods, therefore I eat pretty clean most of the time on a CKD.

I hope that all made sense.

I'm also changing my training style to two workouts the 2 days right after my carb up. I'll do something like an upper/lower body split. If I'm training on Monday and Tuesday (or sometimes wednesday if i'm too wrecked from work on a tuesday), I don't think low glycogen levels towards the end of the week should be a problem?

What will happen if I totally run out of glycogen due to all the lifing done at work? Will my body cannabalise my muscles for energy?
If the 'no glycogen' is a problem, maybe I can do a mini carbup midweek?

Have you thought about performing a TKD with carb ups? If you don't have any muscle glycogen you will not be able to sustain anaerobic activities like weight training and therefor your lifts will suffer. I think this would be more of a problem than muscle catabolism. Performing your workouts after the carb up will help and maybe a quick full body depletion workout the Friday before the carb up.

iLUDEd
12-13-2002, 10:58 AM
your work employing any more staff? :D

LAM
12-13-2002, 11:15 AM
I would have to agree with Bradley. I would consider I different type of diet since your job is very active. IMO a CKD would be more suitable for persons with a less active daily schedule. I think you may lose more LBM if you continue using the CKD.

what are your current stats ?

Shao-LiN
12-13-2002, 12:32 PM
You can employ carb ups with any diet. It's not specific to CKD. Right now, I'm cutting on a 40p/30c/30f diet with periodical carb ups over the weekend.

AJ_11
12-13-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Tank23
Bradley, I want to do the CKD because I've read that it can really speed up fat loss

The reason for this is becasue the body goes into a state of ketosis and burns fat becasue it has no carbs to burn. An overweight person tends to burn carbs and protein first than fat store. Now if your looking to shed 10 - 15 pounds I would be better if you just stuck to a diet like Shao-Lin. That way your body will minimize muscles loss. Especially having that type of job.


Also, without carbs I won't get as much cravings. And another thing, since I've been doing a CKD, everytime I see a carb snack food that I may normally eat and cheat with, now I know I absolutely can not touch carbs till the weekend or it may screw up my diet, that rules out like 99% of junk foods, therefore I eat pretty clean most of the time on a CKD.[/B]

As far as the craving go think of it the same way as a keto diet. And have 1 cheat day a week where your allowed to eat anything you desire. The reason for this is to keep your metabolisim reved and really it just keeps you sane. You also have something to look forward to as a treat for 6 day of excellent dieting.

Weight loss comes down to Cals in vs. Cals out. IMO, the reason that the Atkins dieters have alot of success is becasue eating more fat fills them up and they can go longer without eating thus getting less cals in that they would normally get in. Plus they stop eating donuts.

It's up to you but try a more tradional diet along with a active lifestyle you will achieve your goals.

Tank23
12-13-2002, 08:47 PM
Bradley, actually, yes I have been thinking about doing a TKD with carb ups. But I really don't know how that would work? I suppose it'd be fine if I did a depletion workout at the end of the week.

This is what I wanna do: have a carb up on the weekend and eat a little bit of carbs on weekdays to keep me goin at work

I really wanna keep the carb ups in my diet, I like the fact that I can eat basically any carbs and it'll all go straigh to glycogen.

Can you guys help me out to develop a diet that will work like this?

I have noticed that with a lack of carbs I feel a kinda burnt out at work. Like today, I had a banana for morning tea, since it's saturday (ie: carb up) and I felt more energetic after the break, so yeh, I think I need some carbs in there for energy.

Shao-LiN
12-13-2002, 11:05 PM
That's the thing with ketosis. You'll feel really burned out for a week or two while your body adjusts to using ketones for fuel instead of glucose.

Read the WBB article on the science behind it, so that you understand what's going on.

Tank23
12-14-2002, 04:15 AM
Yeh I know what you're saying shaolin...i think my body has adjusted to the low carbs now, i've been low carbing for 2 weeks now and i feel like my head is a lot clearer, it's hard to explain. But my muscles, when I'm at work, feel burnt out, like they don't wanna work anymore, lol.

Maybe it's just fatigue from working a lot? I worked 51 hours this week :( I probably need more sleep, I sleep over 8 hours a night as it is, it feels as though it's not enough most days, I wake up with my body still feeling wrecked from the previous day's work.

bradley
12-14-2002, 05:51 AM
With the description you gave in the above post I think it would be wise to maybe go isocaloric like LAM suggested.

To answer your previous question I would just perform a standard TKD with maybe one carb up day on the weekends. Only eat carbs around your training and then have a 24 hour carb up day on the weekend. This would probably definitely help with your training. Also, wanted to mention that HIIT is probably not ideal type of cardio to performing when using a keto diet. Sprinting is more of an anaerobic process and requires muscle glycogen. Although you could ingest some carbs to compensate for this. I will be happy to help you come up with a diet plan. Let me know what you think about a TKD or isocaloric and we will go from there.

Tank23
12-15-2002, 03:36 AM
Bradley, i'm keen on trying a TKD, and if that doesn't work out for me, I'd be prepared to go onto an isocaloric. Basically, I want the fastest way to drop bodyfat with a minimum loss of muscle.
We're half way through the first month of summer here, and I still have all that flab to melt away, looks like I left my cutting too late. I want to have a flat stomach within at least a month from now.

Bradley, if you could help me out with a diet plan that would be great.
Thanks
-Tank

bradley
12-15-2002, 06:02 AM
While on the TKD I would start with 12*bw for the daily caloric intake. Then divide this over evenly over the number of meals per day. Don't forget to count the carbs that you will be eating around your training.

I would probably start out by ingesting 25g before and 25g after training. Eat the first 25g of carbs 30-60 minutes before training. You can eat lowGI carbs if you like but this can lead to GI upset in some people. The carbs ingested post-workout should be high GI (dextrose or maltodextrin would be ideal). Protien can also be added post workout to help in recovery but keep fat minimal at this time. The 50g total carbs is just a suggestion as you will have to see how your body reacts to different amounts of carbs.

As far as the carb up I would just go with ingesting carbs at the last two meals of the day. This is using the NHE approach which I believe recommends about 200g per meal or about 400 total. Keeping protien and fat minimal during these meals. In the NHE diet plan you would carb up once every 4 day and then again on the 3rd day. This might be too much, but then again I suggest experimenting and seeing how your body reacts.

Using ketostixs would be beneficial to help you determine what works best, but after a few weeks most people are able to tell if they are in ketosis or not. I hope this helps to some degree.
If any other members of the board see a problem with this please correct me.

AJ_11
12-15-2002, 02:17 PM
I would do the carb ups on the weekend, so you start depleting carbs sunday night. Monday you start with no carbs or very minimal mainly from veggies. Also I am not sure about the 25g 30min before training, I would do 25g of dextrose right before training and right after keeping fat minimal. You can also supplement with Alpha lipoic Acid as you will go back in to ketosis quicker. Then on friday start your carb up. I think I heard of getting between 75 - 150 grams of carbs your first day every 2-3 hrs and 50 - 100g the second day keeping protein normal and and fat minimal. Then starting your depletion back on sunday. I would also recommend taking as much Essentail Fatty acid as the choice of fats. But it really doesn't matter as long as it isn't trans fatty. Also when in ketosis keep the fat to protein ratio like 3:1, becasue fat would be the main source of energy. Also make sure that you are drinking plenty of water throught the entire process.

I personally recommend doing the iso diet at 12*bodyweight. TKD are really tough diets because you sacrifice alot and people look at you weird when you eat. I personally went on a CKD and lost 10llbs but I am preety sure it was water weight. As I gained most of it back within a week or 2. I think that you will lose fat doing either or diet but counting your cals. The isodiet is easier to manage and less strict. Unless you are 100+ llbs overweight. But hey if you are determined and want to try it go for it. I tried it and I know that I am not going to do it again.

Hope this advise helps.

Tank23
12-15-2002, 11:17 PM
Thanks for your replies guys. I am really confused now. I have no idea what I want to do now. I need to make up my mind quickly.

Today I had a bowl of rolled oats for breakfast, and now I've just had 2 pieces of wholemeal bread toast 1 hour before I will workout. I ate the oats this morning to fuel my body for work (all that lifting remember) I dunno what diet would be better for me.

When I allow carbs in my diet I tend to cheat a bit. For instance, today I saw some Lays Chips in the cupboard, what did i do? Yep, I had a handful, what's up with that!?

I need everyone to gimme their opinions on a range of diets, and suggest the best diet that will keep me on track to getting a flat stomach within about a month from now.

I'm keeping my option wide open, but for now I'll be doing (well, attempting) a TKD.

-Tank

bradley
12-16-2002, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11
I would do the carb ups on the weekend, so you start depleting carbs sunday night. Monday you start with no carbs or very minimal mainly from veggies. Also I am not sure about the 25g 30min before training, I would do 25g of dextrose right before training and right after keeping fat minimal. You can also supplement with Alpha lipoic Acid as you will go back in to ketosis quicker. Then on friday start your carb up. I think I heard of getting between 75 - 150 grams of carbs your first day every 2-3 hrs and 50 - 100g the second day keeping protein normal and and fat minimal. Then starting your depletion back on sunday. I would also recommend taking as much Essentail Fatty acid as the choice of fats. But it really doesn't matter as long as it isn't trans fatty. Also when in ketosis keep the fat to protein ratio like 3:1, becasue fat would be the main source of energy. Also make sure that you are drinking plenty of water throught the entire process.


When performing a TKD I don't think the carb ups need to be as long as when on a CKD. Actually you could get away with doing carb ups every other week since you will have carbs around your training. Weekly carb ups are much more important when performing a CKD.

AJ_11
12-16-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Tank23
When I allow carbs in my diet I tend to cheat a bit. For instance, today I saw some Lays Chips in the cupboard, what did i do? Yep, I had a handful, what's up with that!?


It is up to you not too cheap on any type of diet. Cheating on Lay's chip on a TKD is much worse then cheating on a cal defiecient diet.

If you have have willpower on a TKD not too cheat then you should spply the same on any type of diet

Tank23
12-18-2002, 01:05 AM
yeh, very true mate. But on a keto style diet, when you know that carbs are strictly off limits you're more reluctant to cheat than on a more conventional diet.