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Tank23
12-11-2002, 12:51 AM
I've always thought that fat loss depended on calories in VS calories out, but, since I've been cutting, i've noticed that some people treat cardio like magic.

I was talking to a workmate the other day, he's a bodybuilder too. He is pretty big, with about 17" arms. He told me that he does cardio twice a week to stay lean. How will that help? He's bulking like normal the rest of the time, your body can't simultaneously lose fat and gain muscle.


Also...i just don't get how cardio helps. If i'm in a caloric deficit, i should lose fat, right? so what does cardio do, that dieting can't?

-Tank

bradley
12-11-2002, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Tank23
Also...i just don't get how cardio helps. If i'm in a caloric deficit, i should lose fat, right? so what does cardio do, that dieting can't?


The above statement is correct but cardio can help you continue to lose fat when your fat loss has plateaued. Some people would rather eat more and perform more cardio where others will let the diet do most of the work. Basically perfroming cardio can help put you in a caloric deficit, or increase the caloric deficit that is created by your diet.

hemants
12-11-2002, 06:18 AM
Cardio is a convenient way to burn off extra carbs.

Also, heavy weight training is tough on the heart so keeping a healthy heart by doing cardio is a good idea for bodybuilders (although I must admit that I don't do enough, i hate it blekh)

LAM
12-11-2002, 12:24 PM
reasons why I do cardio:

1). increases insulin sensitivity
2). boosts metabolism which aids lipolysis
3). cardiovascular health

AJ_11
12-11-2002, 07:49 PM
I sit in front of the computer all day and night, if I didn't do any cardio on my off days I would go insane. 20min on the treadmill makes me think and I end up have a better day after, tons of energy.

Fluid
12-11-2002, 08:04 PM
10 minutes at 100% VO2 max have been shown to increase mitochondrial density in type iia and iib muscle fibers. Good while you're on a bulk!

Fluid

Tank23
12-11-2002, 11:23 PM
ok thanks alot for your replies. It was a stupid question, i know. But now I'm able to see other benefits to cardio rather than just fat loss.

-Tank23

hemants
12-12-2002, 07:32 AM
No such thing as a stupid question Tank23 :)

Solido
12-12-2002, 08:33 AM
Tank, sorry for interrupting your thread, but I had a question for LAM.

LAM, by increasing insulin sensitivity would that basically make you more susceptible to insulin spikes even with low to moderate GI carbs (or vice versa)?

LAM
12-12-2002, 09:37 AM
nope...it just means that less insulin is needed. serum glucose tollerance levels will remain the same

Solido
12-12-2002, 10:05 AM
Oh ok, I see. Thanks for the response.

Shankerr
12-12-2002, 10:20 PM
nice posts :-)

think of it this way too.. you said you though weight loss was alla bout the balance between kCal in and kCal out? cardio = more kCal out

Tank23
12-13-2002, 12:18 AM
yeh that's true Shanker, i guess some people like eating more and rather do cardio to bring down their calories. That's why I was so confused as to why someone would do cardio if you can just as easily put your self in a caloric deficit through diet.

I've come up with another reason why someone would do cardio: if they don't count calories, but they may have a rough idea of how many calories they're eating, they may wanna make sure they're below maintenance (if they're cutting) and therefore increase activity level through cardio, just to be certain they're in a deficit.

-Tank

pat s
12-13-2002, 12:34 AM
in my opinion cardio is like a keto diet.when you burn all your sugar stores you start burning fat.

hemants
12-13-2002, 08:11 AM
Tank23, it is a bit confusing but here are some more thoughts on the caloric balance thing.

1. in the absence of weight training, doing 500 cals of cardio a day is better than eating 500 cals fewer a day (one controlled study showed that the cardio group maintained more muscle mass probably from exercising their legs)

2. if you are weight training, cardio becomes less important from a muscle preservation point of view but is still important from a cardiac health point of view.

3. speed walking is generally recommended for fat loss over running for two reasons (i) less muscle burned as a ratio, (ii) running tends to make you hungrier and therefore more likely to eat back the calories afterwards.

4. HOWEVER - you'll have to walk a lot longer to achieve the same metabolic benefits of running AND higher intensity cardio will have a greater post exercise metabolic effect as well. The ultimate seems to be HIIT bcs it maximizes the post exercise metabolic effect with minimal time spent on the treadmill.

Tank23
12-14-2002, 04:19 AM
I've started doing HIIT. Went for a run which took me 13 minutes to complete, was about 2.8km long. I was jogging for about 300m and then sprinting about 100m or so, is this how I should be doing it?

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 12:26 PM
Aerobics will do next to nothing to alter one's appearance, yet people will include them because they're considered essential for providing a complete and balanced exercise program. That makes about as much sense as adding Styrofoam bricks while building a house because they provide a "different" form of support. They're only weaker.
No one wants to admit that they've wasted hours of time on something that has reaped no reward. It isn't unlike the gambler who continues to lose and lose because he's already invested so much money on trying to win. Sure, it's senseless. But humans also react out

NateDogg
12-14-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by FinAtrooPer
Aerobics will do next to nothing to alter one's appearance, yet people will include them because they're considered essential for providing a complete and balanced exercise program.
That makes about as much sense as adding Styrofoam bricks while building a house because they provide a "different" form of support. They're only weaker.
No one wants to admit that they've wasted hours of time on something that has reaped no reward. It isn't unlike the gambler who continues to lose and lose because he's already invested so much money on trying to win. Sure, it's senseless. But humans also react out

Some of the benefits of cardio have been listed here already. Regardless of whether or not it alters physical appearance, there are still health benefits associated with it.

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 12:59 PM
When it comes to exercise, doing more won't assure more health or a longer life. Look at Jim Fixx. He wrote the famous book on running back in the 70's when it first started gaining popularity with the public. (By the way, how exactly do you go about writing a book on running? How many times can you say; left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot...?) Jim Fixx died at age 36. When I mention this to running addicts they invariable say; "Jim Fixx had a congenital heart problem!" That's my point. Running didn't correct or even alleviate the problem. No disrespect intended, but all that running may have very well aggravated it.

NateDogg
12-14-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by FinAtrooPer
When it comes to exercise, doing more won't assure more health or a longer life. Look at Jim Fixx. He wrote the famous book on running back in the 70's when it first started gaining popularity with the public. (By the way, how exactly do you go about writing a book on running? How many times can you say; left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot...?) Jim Fixx died at age 36. When I mention this to running addicts they invariable say; "Jim Fixx had a congenital heart problem!" That's my point. Running didn't correct or even alleviate the problem. No disrespect intended, but all that running may have very well aggravated it.

So what you are saying is that the death of one runner, who had heart problems, dispells any benefits that running may ever have to anyone?

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 01:05 PM
Doctor Kenneth Cooper wrote the book "The New Aerobics" and is credited with coining the very term "aerobics." Twenty five years after the debut of his book, Dr. Cooper admitted that many of his conclusions were incorrect. He was quoted as saying: "Further research has shown that there is no correlation between aerobic performance and health, protection against heart disease, and longevity."
Newsweek Magazine ran a piece on Exercise Guild president Ken Hutchins who refers to an article that appeared in Mens Journal Magazine where Dr. Cooper goes on to say that aerobics are far more carcinogenic than first realized and are to blame for many injuries

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 01:08 PM
bottom line getting lean take no more then a good wholesome diet and weight training with very short rest peroids between sets have you ever done 20 rep squats? Using aerobics as a method of burning fat is only fanning the fire. Muscle requires energy to sustain. Fat does not. Therefore, the best way to keep bodyfat in check is by having more muscle. And how do we do that? Lifting weights of course! aerobics very little health benefite compared to weight training lift more weights for longer peroids of time (without overtraing of course)

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 01:27 PM
The thing is this: The heart is a muscle and although cardiac muscle tissue is different from skeletal muscle tissue, there are similarities. All muscle becomes stronger through use. There is no evidence that the usage from an extended moderate activity increase is superior to the anaerobic version that weight training provides. Even the terms anaerobic and aerobic are misleading. They're essentially "made up" terminology which exercise practitioners have used and repeated throughout the years. Anaerobic means "without oxygen." Well, all exercise requires oxygen. Come to think of it, last I heard, everything outside of death requires oxygen.
Along the same lines one must realize, any activity will burn calories and induce weight loss, especially if the trainee is new to an exercise program. But even in the case of previously untrained subjects, aerobics are the least effective of all forms of exercise for fat loss. When it comes to calling on its energy resources, the body doesn't know if it's lifting a barbell or running on a treadmill. It's expending effort, burning calories and stressing the nervous system with both activities. Of course, cardio training is of a lower intensity and longer duration. That's exactly what makes it less effective. If low intensity, long duration burns fat (which it does) then all activity, short of being in a coma, will burn fat -- which it does -- just not enough to make a difference. Of course, keeping the rest period in between sets brief is the best fat burning tactic there is, yet people ignore it to ride a bike that doesn't go anywhere. Go figure.

NateDogg
12-14-2002, 01:29 PM
You keep stating that using aerobics to change one's physical appearance is not optimal (in your own words). I am not disagreeing with that. However, it can not be denied that cardio does the following:

Increase stroke volume and therefore lower resting heart rate
Increase max oxygen uptake

Both are currently accepted measures of overall health and fitness.

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 01:39 PM
look for the newest studies of Dr Ken Cooper i mentioned his work a couple of post back his findings of now are long duration low intensity aerobics "joging on a treadmill for 60" provides virtual non of the benefites you listed above those benfites can be achieved through high intensity weight training

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 01:43 PM
one of the best fat burning workout you can do is full bore 100yrd windsprints but of courese by doing that you are working anaerobicly right

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 01:50 PM
just to note i do ingage in aerobic activity from time to time l love to mountain bike and play racket ball so the point is do what feels good but it dosent take hours of cardio to burn fat you can do that in a more efficant manner by weight trainning with the added benefite of growing more muscle tissue

bradley
12-14-2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by FinAtrooPer
one of the best fat burning workout you can do is full bore 100yrd windsprints but of courese by doing that you are working anaerobicly right

"Even the terms anaerobic and aerobic are misleading. They're essentially 'made up' terminology which exercise practitioners have used and repeated throughout the years. Anaerobic means 'without oxygen'."

Both of these were quoted by FinAtrooper. So which is it? The chemical reactions that occur in the muscles while lifting weights do not require oxygen, therefore anaerobic. That doesn't mean that you can hold your breath through the entire set. Other parts of the body require oxygen at this time.

I don't think anyone is disputing that weight training is the best way to alter the appearance of your body, but I also believe that cardiovascular training does have benefits as well. A majority of these benefits have already been stated.

NateDogg
12-14-2002, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by FinAtrooPer
look for the newest studies of Dr Ken Cooper i mentioned his work a couple of post back his findings of now are long duration low intensity aerobics "joging on a treadmill for 60" provides virtual non of the benefites you listed above those benfites can be achieved through high intensity weight training

"Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning"

"...Heavy resistance work is associated with no change in stroke volume, or even a decrease in this value..." (p124)

"It also appears that resistance training is not particularly effective in improving maximal oxygen uptake, even when using circuit training methods."(p130)

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 04:12 PM
"Even the terms anaerobic and aerobic are misleading. They're essentially 'made up' terminology which exercise practitioners have used and repeated throughout the years. Anaerobic means 'without oxygen'."

thats right by definition full bore windsprints are anaerobic "withoutoxygen" do you realy think you can do a full bore windsprint without breathing? (I think Not)
next time you do 20rep squats hold your breath the entire time I guarnatee you you can not do it and you will be weaker and fail faster so its safe to say during an anaerobic workout you need oxygen?????????? how is that possible, because the terms are nonscence, if cardio is so good then why do most marathon runners have high bodyfat percentages then most bodybuilders even in the offseason???????

are you telling me when I bench press heavy weights the taxed muscle do not require oxygen???? thats a new one, and as far as i know evrey activty short of being dead requires oxygen so by definition were are alwasy performing aerobics just by being alive so why are so many people fat???????????

FinAtrooPer
12-14-2002, 04:17 PM
im not saying that cardio has no place in life, im just stateing that cardio has no place in a bodybuilders routine I do not perform cardio while cutting have been as low as 3.5% BF WITH NO CARDIO WHAT SO EVER. im not trying to debate just putting some different views out for people to look at.

bradley
12-14-2002, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by FinAtrooPer
"Even the terms anaerobic and aerobic are misleading. They're essentially 'made up' terminology which exercise practitioners have used and repeated throughout the years. Anaerobic means 'without oxygen'."

thats right by definition full bore windsprints are anaerobic "withoutoxygen" do you realy think you can do a full bore windsprint without breathing? (I think Not)
next time you do 20rep squats hold your breath the entire time I guarnatee you you can not do it and you will be weaker and fail faster so its safe to say during an anaerobic workout you need oxygen?????????? how is that possible, because the terms are nonscence, if cardio is so good then why do most marathon runners have high bodyfat percentages then most bodybuilders even in the offseason???????

are you telling me when I bench press heavy weights the taxed muscle do not require oxygen???? thats a new one, and as far as i know evrey activty short of being dead requires oxygen so by definition were are alwasy performing aerobics just by being alive so why are so many people fat???????????

"The chemical reactions that occur in the muscles while lifting weights do not require oxygen, therefore anaerobic. That doesn't mean that you can hold your breath through the entire set. Other parts of the body require oxygen at this time."

You are generalizing this argument to an unnecessary degree. You said "i know evrey activty short of being dead requires oxygen so by definition were are alwasy performing aerobics just by being alive so why are so many people fat??????????? " Well if so many people lift weights why do they not have huge muscles? You just can't generalize to such a degree. I think there is a big difference between watching TV and riding a stationary bike.