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Pup
12-26-2002, 07:05 PM
Chris Mason and I have been debating the value of higher carbohydrate diets.

It is my position that high carbohydrate diets are garbage, by high i mean the RDA recommended 60% caloric intake of carbs. I think they are useless for cutting diets, and if they aren't in conjunction with a lot of protein when someone is bulking, i think they are still useless.

Basically, unless someone is a couch potato a high carbohydrate, low protein, low fat diet is not very good.

Chris is gonna state his position then i will come back with some things in a bit more detail.

IceRgrrl
12-26-2002, 07:32 PM
..depends on your goals and your activity level/what kind of activity. When I'm playing a lot of hockey games/practicing a lot, 50-60% carbohydrates gives me the constant energy that I need to sustain that level of activity...otherwise I run out of gas and don't recover. I suppose it would be similar for someone who's doing serious mountain biking or playing in racquetball tournaments or whatever. ANd then there's just the differences in individual metabolisms to consider...some people do better on higher carbs, others on lower.

I know that this is mainly a body building site and many people here tend toward the typical BB diet, but there's a place for all kinds of diet variations depending on what you're doing.

Wizard
12-26-2002, 08:10 PM
In normal people, the problem isn't the carbs, it's the quality of the carbs. If you add some fiber to your diet, your restrict the chances of gaining fat. There are certainly persons that handle poorly the carbs, thus they have to reduce their carb intake.

Then, it does not always depend on the activity, whether you need to consume lots of carbs or not.
Carbohydrates for extended burning don't last too long. That means that you soon run through carbs and glycogen in short order, so something else will be needed anyway.
The best time for consuming carbs is before a short, high intensity session of weight training or hit.

I would never suggest a diet that consists of less than 25% of protein and 25% of fat. And even in this case, when you have to consume an equal to, or even more than 50% of calories that come from carbs, it would be better to prefer low GI complex carbs which contain fiber, vits and phytochemicals.

Pup
12-26-2002, 08:12 PM
But do you eat that % of carbs when you aren't competing in hockey...and, metabolism affects total caloric intake, i've yet to see solid proof that lipolysis is macronutrient dependent. Another thing, do you feel that an individual who has a 60% carb/15% protein/25% fat diet is going to sustain a substantial amount of exercise induced hypertrophy, ya need aminos to build muscles, i mean sure we all aren't bodybuilders, but anyone who wants to increase their lbm and lower their bodyfat is not going do so with such a high imbalance between their carbs and protein.

Budiak
12-26-2002, 08:17 PM
What exactly is 'low protein'? My most successful cycles, both cutting and bulking, have always had higher amounts of carbs than protein. Mind you my average cut was about 250 grams of carbs, 170 grams of protein and 40 grams of fat (when I was about 8%bf and 150lbs).

Pup
12-26-2002, 08:26 PM
I hold to the idea that below 30% protein is low protein. I do believe that when bulking carbs can be higher simply cause carbohydrate rich foods are more economically feasible than protein rich foods, sweet potatoes are cheap, steak isn't.

Saint Patrick
12-26-2002, 08:37 PM
I'm with pup on this one, but I'm still waiting to hear from Mr. Mason.

Blood&Iron
12-26-2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Just_a_pup
i've yet to see solid proof that lipolysis is macronutrient dependent.
I'm assuming you forgot a 'not' here. Otherwise, you're arguing against your own premise. Of course, lipolysis IS macronutrient dependent. It's well established that insulin, being in the 'fed' state (which occurs when liver glycogen stores are full), and a host of other things inhibit lipolysis. That doesn't mean that the macronutrient ratio of one's diet is, on the whole, going to have a (large) effect on weight/fat loss. There is little evidence that, given equivalent calorie levels, a high carbohydrate diet(50%+) is any worse (or better) than a lower carbohydrate one (or, further, that the source of these carbs matters). There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, however.

There is also scant evidence to support the notion that the ridiculous amounts of protein (over 1g/lb bodyweight) that bodybuilders routinely consume is necessary--and there is some evidence it may, in fact, be counterproductive. Lemmon's figure of 0.8g/lb should be plenty.

Plenty of people have gotten lean using high carb/low fat diets. Plenty of people have gotten lean on low carb/high fat diets. The failure of higher carb diets comes when people don't pay attention to their overall calorie intake, which is what Joe Schmoe tends to do. Oh, there's no fat in those SnackWell cookies? That must mean I can eat a whole box.

Wizard
12-26-2002, 09:30 PM
What I can say is that changing the body composition (the ratio of muscle mass/adipose tissue) is way more important than just losing weight and that the first is achieved easier and faster by following a more balanced diet.
After all we do not argue over simple thermodynamic laws.

Pup
12-26-2002, 09:49 PM
You're right B&I...i forgot the "not"

The thing about people losing weight with low fat/high carb diets is that other than just being skinnier versions of the same flat, flabby individual is that they have nothing to show for their efforts, as Wizard said, its about body composition change, and that comes from balanced macronutrient ratios, especially for people who want to change their lifestyle and gradually make changes, not yo-yo or cut up in 12 weeks for a contest.

Blood&Iron
12-26-2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by just_a_pup
You're right B&I...i forgot the "not"

The thing about people losing weight with low fat/high carb diets is that other than just being skinnier versions of the same flat, flabby individual is that they have nothing to show for their efforts, as Wizard said, its about body composition change, and that comes from balanced macronutrient ratios, especially for people who want to change their lifestyle and gradually make changes, not yo-yo or cut up in 12 weeks for a contest.
I wasn't talking about 'regular' folks. Up until 10 years ago or so bodybuilders were sticking primarily to high carb/low fat (Of course, the low carb craze has waxed and waned any number of times over the past hundred years). They weren't skinny and flabby. So, it certainly works. Most regular people are just skinnier versions of their flabby selves no matter what they do-- high or low carb. Look at the average adherent of the Atkins' diet (or variations thereof); I doubt you'd mistake him for a bodybuilder.

I certainly agree with your last subordinate clause, though.

Pup
12-26-2002, 10:22 PM
Are you sure that the bodybuilders were doing that B&I...if that is the case they would have lost a ton of lbm everytime they dieted. It would seem to me that they'd figure it out the first or second time they did it, i could be wrong, but i doubt they just figured out in the last ten years that you need a lot of protein when contest dieting to preserve lbm, unless of course you use the ketogenic approach which is also muscle sparing.

The_Chicken_Daddy
12-27-2002, 10:21 AM
I like to get a combination of all three in all meals, with some added fibre (fruit/veg) in selected ones (usually cause it can be quite impractical at times).

The_Chicken_Daddy
12-27-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by just_a_pup
Are you sure that the bodybuilders were doing that B&I...if that is the case they would have lost a ton of lbm everytime they dieted. It would seem to me that they'd figure it out the first or second time they did it, i could be wrong, but i doubt they just figured out in the last ten years that you need a lot of protein when contest dieting to preserve lbm, unless of course you use the ketogenic approach which is also muscle sparing.

Rob, when protein is low, carbs are protein sparing, so a high carb, low protein diet won't necessarily mean muscle loss.

I doubt it'd help matters though.

body
12-27-2002, 10:41 AM
most of the arguments here have been based on weight loss as a reaosn to use either high/lo fat/carb diets.

Some of us are more concerend with putting on weight (lean weight) in a calorific excess.

so before you say this diet is the best you have to consider weigth gianing people as well as people cutting.

Wizard
12-27-2002, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


Rob, when protein is low, carbs are protein sparing, so a high carb, low protein diet won't necessarily mean muscle loss.

I doubt it'd help matters though.

Carbs are protein sparing mostly on diets where the caloric intake is higher than the maintainance levels, i.e on bulking diets but when it comes to the fat loss diets, protein intake has to be high. Pup said that high carb intake is useless for cutting diets and this is exactly what I can say too.

Blood&Iron
12-27-2002, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


Rob, when protein is low, carbs are protein sparing, so a high carb, low protein diet won't necessarily mean muscle loss.

I doubt it'd help matters though.
High carb does not necessarily mean low protein. I think protein is important, but again much above about 1g/lb is pointless--unless you're using androgens.

I think some of our disagreement stems from sloppy terminology (mostly on my part). When I was referring to the 'high carb/low fat' diets of bodybuilders in the 80's I was thinking of something along the lines of:
50% carbs
30% protein
20% fat

which, as far as I'm aware, was a fairly popular approach. It's not impossible I'm mistaken, though. Whatever the case may be, such a diet should work reasonably well.

The_Chicken_Daddy
12-27-2002, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Wizard
Pup said that high carb intake is useless for cutting diets and this is exactly what I can say too.

I wouldn't say totally useless.

But for getting from quite lean to leaner i doubt they're ideal.

Titan
12-27-2002, 06:15 PM
what sort of ratio would you recommend for a cutting diet Robboe?

The_Chicken_Daddy
12-27-2002, 08:17 PM
Depends really.

If a person has had success with a particular type of diet before, then i wouldn't tell them to stop.

But starting with a bit from every macro and reducing overall calories as you go is a good start. Once you get into really lean territory (say, 10% and below), carbs can become more of a problem (although not with all) so reducing them specifically and maybe carb-cycling would be a good idea.

The ratios themselves aren't of much importance, but they can be useful as a guide to get you started.

Wizard
12-27-2002, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Depends really.

Once you get into really lean territory (say, 10% and below), carbs can become more of a problem (although not with all) so reducing them specifically and maybe carb-cycling would be a good idea.



It would certainly be a great idea.

Tiare
12-27-2002, 09:36 PM
I've got to say that I've seen a lot more people on high carb diets do very well in cutting by doing cardio exercises.

Assuming you are not dramatically under your daily caloric needs, once you reach a certain level of protein intake (enough to build your base cells and hormones) there is no reason for the body to address lbm as a source of fuel any more or less due to high or low protein intake.

The body might actually be more likely to address lbm as a source of fuel if you do not have enough carbohydrates (i.e. you are glucose deficient such as on a high protein diet). This would be especially true if you are going into anaerobic respiration due to the slow nature of fat energy production.

I don't think you can grow lbm to any significant extent on a low protein diet though (such as the 20ish % fda guidelines).

Incidentally, there are many many factors outside of the glycemic index that cause fluxuations (spikes) in insulin levels.

Wizard
12-27-2002, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Tiare
I've got to say that I've seen a lot more people on high carb diets do very well in cutting by doing cardio exercises.
production.


Maybe only if they do HIT because they do need many carbs before a HIT session. In any other circumstances they would slow down fat loss because they would be losing a significant amount of muscle mass along with the fat. (reduced metabolism)

The_Chicken_Daddy
12-28-2002, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Tiare
I don't think you can grow lbm to any significant extent on a low protein diet though (such as the 20ish % fda guidelines).


I cannot remember his user name, but there's some guy who posts (albeit infrequently) on this board who is quite a size who claims to only eat about 60g protein a day. He doesn't eat meat either.

Just food for thought.

body
12-28-2002, 12:07 PM
what happend to mr mason?

body
12-28-2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


I cannot remember his user name, but there's some guy who posts (albeit infrequently) on this board who is quite a size who claims to only eat about 60g protein a day. He doesn't eat meat either.

Just food for thought.

has he ever tried high protien diets? if no. the question to be asked, how much more would he grow by using them?

Max-Mex
12-28-2002, 02:47 PM
I think carbs are ok for cutting. I was able to lose about 10-15 pounds of fat by doing a 60% carb intake. As some people have stated before, it's the type of carbs that matter. If you eat a lot of sugary or very starchy carbs, your diet will go to hell. I was able to stick to lots of fruits and veggies. I would never cut carbs from my diet because I work such long hours (and the gym hours as well) that if I reduced the carbs I'd be so tired.

bradley
12-28-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Max-Mex
I would never cut carbs from my diet because I work such long hours (and the gym hours as well) that if I reduced the carbs I'd be so tired.

Once your body becomes accustomed to not burning carbs that tired sluggish feeling will go away. Carbs are not needed for most daily activities. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong in thinking this.

The_Chicken_Daddy
12-28-2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by body


has he ever tried high protien diets? if no. the question to be asked, how much more would he grow by using them?

Dunno, but the guy was not small. And he did a **** load of cardio if i remember rightly.

Tiare
12-28-2002, 09:32 PM
Some military guy that never showed his legs, right Chicken_Daddy? Or am I thinking of someone else?

The_Chicken_Daddy
12-28-2002, 09:36 PM
You're thinking of the right dude, yeah. but he did show his legs. Not much to write home about though.

But i can hardly criticise.