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DJO7987
02-11-2003, 09:02 PM
Hi.

I am a 6'1, 220 lb. 29% BF senior in HS. Over the 3 years I have lost 80 pounds. About 6 months ago I began to work out and have used the Arnold Schwarznegger New Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding as my guide :read: . I have also recieved help from my former body builder cousin. I recently purchased a Weider home gym and have plenty of weights. I need to know several things though.

When is the best time to workout? :scratch:

What meal plan should I choose to loose fat and gain muscle?
( I am a student so I rarley have B-fast, I eat a salad at lunch, and have an ample portion of whtever mom cooks for dinner :burger: .)

What things can I do to help the development of my chest. (I feel that I am having a difficult time with that area.)

Does Hydroxycut really work? I have purchased a bottle for $30 :eek: having read articles in Muscle and Fitness Magazine & Sports Supplement Review, and having talked to some local folks at the golds gym (where I went for a while) I got some positive feedback.

Thanks alot folks.

:dj: DJO7987

WillKuenzel
02-11-2003, 11:19 PM
I am a student so I rarley have B-fastThat is the first thing I would change. You need to make time for that. Breakfast is probably one of the most important meals and you are skipping it. Throughout high school and college I made time for breakfast. Trust me, eat breakfast.

Vido
02-11-2003, 11:25 PM
I'm not overly familiar with the Arnold training book, but if my memory is correct I believe many people on this board have said following the routines outlined in the book will soon lead to overtraining.

The best time to workout is when you have the most energy and are able to have a good meal afterwards. This is going to vary with the individual.

Being a student is no excuse to not eat breakfast. I don't connect those 2 in any way at all. I'm sure you could find something more calorically dense than a salad for lunch as well. You should be trying to eat 5-6 smaller meals throughout the day, not gorging on one at dinner. This will help your metabolism speed up. One last thing as far as diet goes...you are a pretty big guy so you don't need to starve yourself to shed the pounds. Make sure you are eating at least 12 x your bodyweight in calories every day. If you keep your protein intake high (at least 1gram/lb of bodyweight) and eat SLIGHTLY below maintenance you should shed fat, while sparing muscle. Look to lose about 1lb per week; if you're losing much more than that, it's probably muscle as well.

To develop your chest stick with the basic compound movements, ie. barbell or dumbbell bench press (incline, flat, or decline) and dips.

Hydroxycut is an ECA (ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin) stack. It is cheaper to make your own by combining the individual ingredients in the correct proportions. ECA stacks will AID you in your quest to lose fat, assuming your diet and training are in order.

aka23
02-12-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Vido
If you keep your protein intake high (at least 1gram/lb of bodyweight) and eat SLIGHTLY below maintenance you should shed fat, while sparing muscle.

Eating more than 1gram/lb of protein is more than you can use, and more than the levels that the the American College of Sports, the USDA, and various other groups recommend. The excess protein will either be used as energy or stored as fat. Eating excessive protein while dieting does not help preserve muscle. High protein/low carb diets are known for breaking down muscles for energy. Eating excess protein is likely to cause you to lose weight. But this weight is water, which accompanies the ketosis waste products.

I do agree that if you are dieting, you should only eat only slightly below your maintenence level of calories. Going large amounts below your maintenance level is likely to reduce lean body mass, decrease metabolic rate, and make you more efficient at burning calories.

Vido
02-12-2003, 12:44 AM
Most of the protein regulations are not made for people who work their asses off in the gym, but for the general population, most of whom are sedentary. I don't think there is any conclusive evidence that says eating more than 1gram/lb bodyweight is more than you can use, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

GonePostal
02-12-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by aka23


Eating more than 1gram/lb of protein is more than you can use, and more than the levels that the the American College of Sports, the USDA, and various other groups recommend. The excess protein will either be used as energy or stored as fat. Eating excess protein while dieting does not help preserve muscle. High protein/low carb diets are known for breaking down muscles for energy. Eating excess protein is likely to cause you to lose weight. But this weight is water, which accompanies the ketosis waste products.

I do agree that if you are dieting, you should only eat only slightly below your maintenence level of calories. Going large amounts below your maintenance level is likely to reduce lean body mass, decrease metabolic rate, and make you more efficient at burning calories.

1g/lb of protien is a general guideline. There are many studies and none are conclusive about the optimal amount of protien to consume. One thing they all agree on though is that as you increase protien inteake you get deminshing returns. That aside I would rather error on the side of caution (over intake of protien) then not get enough. This is especially important when cutting because if you don't meet your protien requirement for the day you lose more LBM then if you did. To my knowledge the only reason you would lose water weight because of increased protien intake is because your intake of water is not high enough.

bradley
02-12-2003, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by aka23


High protein/low carb diets are known for breaking down muscles for energy. Eating excess protein is likely to cause you to lose weight. But this weight is water, which accompanies the ketosis waste products

I think he was suggesting more of a high protein/moderate carb/moderate fat approach. I didn't realize that high protein low carb diets were known for breaking down muscle. From what I have read they tend to have a protein sparing affect. High protein diets will cause you to lose water weight, but as long as you are eating below maintenance you will lose weight as well. I am not advocating ketogenic dieting but many people have great success by using them and otheres respond better to a more balanced diet.

bradley
02-12-2003, 02:48 AM
DJ07987-

I would concentrate on one goal at a time (cutting/bulking). Although it is possible to lose weight and gain muscle at the same time it usually just does not happen, unless you are new to training or on AAS. I would train whenever was the most convenient and you have the most energy. The book that you mentioned is a good resource in that it gives descriptions of the exercises but the routines listed would probably lead you to overtraining. Might want to check out one of the WBB routines and see how that works for you. Welcome to WBB:)

Here are some general guidelines that might help you with your diet:

General Calorie Guidelines
12*bodyweight--cutting
15*bodyweight--maintenance
18-20*bodyweight--bulking

These are rough daily calorie guidelines that should be adjusted up or down until desired weight gain or loss is reached (approximately 1 pound per week).

Some generally accepted dieting principles:

1) 1 gram of protein per lb. of bodyweight

2) 25-30% of daily calories should come from fat (Essential fatty
acids making up most of this total)

3) Fill in the rest of daily calories with low glycemic index carbs, except postworkout which would ideally include high glycemic index carbs along with whey protein.

4) Drink plenty of water throughout the day, and one gallon would be good starting point.

Listed below are some good sources of each macronutrient. This is just a small list and is by no means all inclusive.

protein sources: eggs, chicken, lean beef, dairy, fish

low GI carbs: oats, sweet potatoes, beans, brown rice, whole wheat bread, vegetables

fats: nuts, natural peanut butter, oily fish (such as salmon), fish oil, flax oil, hemp oil, safflower oil, olive oil

aka23
02-12-2003, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Vido
Most of the protein regulations are not made for people who work their asses off in the gym, but for the general population, most of whom are sedentary. I don't think there is any conclusive evidence that says eating more than 1gram/lb bodyweight is more than you can use, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

You are correct that active people can use much more proetin than sedntary people. The groups that have set recommended levels for active athletes usually place them around .8g/lb. There have been plenty of good scientific studies of requirements for bodybuilders and other athletes. A summary that I included in another post is below:

http://www.power-nutrition.com/healthy%20eating/amino.html

Here is a quote:
Peter Lemon, PhD, an exercise physiologist at Kent State University in Ohio, has spent his career studying the protein requirements of strength and endurance athletes. Based on his studies, Lemon advises no more than 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight per day. Consuming protein above this amount will probably not offer any additional benefits. Greater intakes than 1 gm/lb mean you're likely wasting money on excess protein. Extra protein breaks down into nitrogen that is excreted in urine. The calories are either used for energy or stored as fat. The following table can provide a guideline for how much protein you should eating.

Table 1. Recommended Grams of Protein Per Pound of Body Weight Per Day*
_________________________________________
RDA for sedentary adult 0.4
Adult recreational exerciser 0.5 - 0.75
Adult competitive athlete 0.7 - 0.9
Adult building muscle mass 0.7 -1.0
Growing teenage athlete 0.9 -1.0

aka23
02-12-2003, 06:07 AM
Originally posted by bradley
From what I have read they tend to have a protein sparing affect.

The studies that I have seen that showed a protein sparing effect did not have what I would call very high levels of protein. For example in Layman's frequently quoted study the participants who ate .73g/lb. preserved more muscle than the control group who was eating at .36g/lb , which is below the minimum RDA.

When I have heard the term "protein sparing effect", it is usually in refernce to carbohydrates. Here is what is written on the subject at Galaxy of Health:

"The Protein-Sparing Effect

Carbohydrate not only supplies the body with energy but has a "protein-sparing" effect as well. As long as your body can use carbohydrates for energy, it will spare the protein you eat to be used for building and maintaining your muscle structure. In the absence of carbohydrate, your body will attempt to use the available protein to supply energy, metabolizing the protein in the muscle structure you have worked so hard to build. Too little carbohydrate in the body also affects how you look-your muscles shrink as they lose glycogen and you end up with a drawn, pinched look."

Note that I do agree with all of the above quote.


High protein diets will cause you to lose water weight, but as long as you are eating below maintenance you will lose weight as well.

Any time you are eating below your maintenance level of calories you should lose weight, regardless of the protein/fat/carb composition. Note that what I am calling your maintenance level of calories may change with atypical protein/fat/carb composition for reasons such as BMR changes and calories used during liver conversions.

Los11
02-12-2003, 08:17 AM
DJO7987-

Hey whats up I was sort of in the same position as yourself, I started my cutting diet 8 weeks ago I am 5 9" and at that time I was 240lb with bf* in the mid 20's. Now it is 8 weeks later and I am 214lb with 17* BF and feel 100 times better still want to cut a little more maybe get down to 205-210lb and then start a gradual bulk, What Bradley told you is the way to go 25-30 percent Fat , 25-30 percent Carbs, and the rest Protein its not hard to do at all you have to eat breakfast though its the most important, You should definetly be eating like 5-6 times a day if your in school dude just brown bag your stuff make sure you always have a snack for the times that you need to eat, I usually eat every 2-3 hours, I mean you have class all day I hear ya but bring the stuff with you and keep i in your locker you get hungry , Hey go to your locker and eat some stuff it cant be that hard. Your young and active you will lose the weight no doubt as far as workout you have to do alot of cardio to get your BF* down thats what did to me I do like 3-4 times a week and I weight train pretty hard for 6 days a week one day rest, on that rest day is also my cheat day where I eat my pizza and wings and a few beers you got to have a cheat meal in your week it will not effect you I personally think it helps to have a day where you just shock your system with eating alot more food than you do the rest of the week, and I have been seeing really good gains its hard work but its well worth it. As far as the hydroxycut check it out if you want i did a cycle of that and NO2 in my 8 weeks so far just stopped the hydroxycut today. I think it defenetly gave me and energty boost but did it make me shed the fat I couldnt tell you your diet and training hard will do it plus I am not down with the ephedra so I dont want to take it anymore but there is a new Hydroxycut out that is ephedra free give it a try but that stuff is not a miracle worker you know its all in the diet and training. Here is a sample of my diet that bradley revised for me like 10 times but this is what has worked for me . Oh and you have to drink tons of water and no juice supllement like crystal light or someting like that.

Meal one
1 yolk, 3 whites, a little cheese, slice of wheat toast with low sugar jam

Meal 2
Half a Natty PB with a little jam Sandwhich on wheat

Meal 3
Turkey or Tuna on a wheat toritilla with low fat mayo, lett, tomatoe

Workout

Post Workout
Protein shake - 44 gr protein/ some fast carbs

Meal 4
Ckicken or steak with veggies, small potatoe or sweet potatoe or brown rice, with salad.

Meal 5
Tuna w/ lowfat mayo

Meal 6
Low Fat Cottage cheese

Supp. = Hydroxycut and NO2

Water all day , Crystal Light with meals. One cheat meal a week like pizza, chinese food, some alcohol etc. etc. Got to do at least one day you know.


Good luck with it dude let me know if you need any other advice, this site is great its what helped me get to wher I am now.

Vido
02-12-2003, 12:00 PM
Not to stray too off topic from the thread, but although you sound happy with your results Los11, there is no way that you can lose 26 lbs in 8 weeks WITHOUT losing quite a bit of muscle in the process. I'm sure a lot of the weight loss was fat and water, so that's cool, but for the rest of your cut I'd try to aim for a loss of 1lb/week. That way you can be more assured what you're losing is what you actually want to lose.

Los11
02-12-2003, 01:36 PM
I hear ya, thats exactly what I have been aiming for 1-2lbs a week but I cant explain why I lost that weight that fast and my arms got bigger. I went on vacation to Puerto Rico for a week and all I did was run every morning 2 mile run usually and when I got back I had lost like 5 pounds that week thats what really threw it out of wack I think but the wieght loss has not affected my muscle gain I dont think at least I know I have gotten stronger my bench went from 205 to 255 so I have seen some good gains and as long as you eat right and you feel good what else can you do , you know I have been eating 1900-2200 cals each day for the 8 weeks its just the way I have lost the weight.

bradley
02-12-2003, 01:58 PM
When I said protein sparing affect I am reffering to ketogenic diets which is what I thought you were talking about. I agree that carbohydrates have a protein sparing effect as well.

I am not disputing your claim in that 1g per lb is probably too much protein for the body to use, but too much is better than too little IMO. This provides an easy way to gauge your daily protein intake. Same with the 1 gallon per day of wter and 12*bw for cutting. These are just general guidelines and not absolutes.