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View Full Version : Refeeds on an "assisted" diet?



Frozenmoses
02-17-2003, 03:23 PM
I'm 6'0, at 165 lbs, with probably 16-20ish% bf. I've been cutting for a bit, but I've been using 1-T ethergels to help me gain strength during a cut. During this time, I've definitely start to lean out while eating at maintenance calories (~2200/day). My weight has stayed constant for the past 3 weeks, which is fine since I'm seeing improvements in the mirror and in the gym. My question is: Should I be doing refeeds while I'm on the prohormones, or should I continue eating at maintenance and let the test work its magic?

CBates
02-17-2003, 06:53 PM
How many carbs are you getting a day? If less than around 100-150g, then you might benefit from carb up meals. This is not a cheat meal though.

Frozenmoses
02-17-2003, 07:27 PM
My daily carbs are fairly low. I don't really count my macros for day to day dieting, I usually just shoot for high protein and monitor my cals. If I had to guess, I would say I'm getting around 100g of carbs daily, though.

I'm currently working up a refeed diet for myself. When I finish it, I'll post it and let ya critique.

Frozenmoses
02-17-2003, 07:53 PM
Okay, I've worked out a refeed fo' my sweet, sweet ass. Please feel free to yell and scream at all of my eff ups.

Meal 1: 1 Slice WW Bread, 1 Tbsp jelly, 1 Tbsp Natty PB, 2 cups orange peach mango juice, 1 tbsp flax.
Meal 2: Detour bar, 2 servings of orange juice.
Meal 3: 1 Potato, 2 servings of turkey breast, 1 serving cheese, 1 cup orange peach mango juice.
Meal 4 (PWO): 3 scoops of Cytogainer
Meal 5: 2.5 servings of tuna, 1 Tbsp Miracle Whip, 2 slices WW Bread.
Meal 6: 1 Potato, 2 servings of turkey breast, 1 serving of cheese, 1 Tbsp of flax, 1 cup of skim milk.

And the breakdown is...

Fat - 76 g
Protein - 184 g
Carbs - 355 g
Cals - 2825

Comments?

Frozenmoses
02-18-2003, 08:27 AM
Bump. He'p mah!

CBates
02-18-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Frozenmoses

Fat - 76 g
Protein - 184 g
Carbs - 355 g
Cals - 2825

Comments?


Only two suggestions I'll make is you might want to lower your fat a little, probably closer to around 50 or a little less while doing carb ups. Also, you may want to remove some of the sugary carbs and add my starchy carbs. Other than that, everything looks good.

Frozenmoses
02-18-2003, 08:43 AM
Hey CBates, thanks for the response. I designed my refeed around this article. http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm

You're right about my fat, I think if I drop one of the servings of flax I should be ok. As for the carbs, according tot he article, most of my carbs should be High GI, and taper them off towards more starchy carbs at the end of the refeed.

CBates
02-18-2003, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Frozenmoses
Hey CBates, thanks for the response. I designed my refeed around this article. http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm

You're right about my fat, I think if I drop one of the servings of flax I should be ok. As for the carbs, according tot he article, most of my carbs should be High GI, and taper them off towards more starchy carbs at the end of the refeed.

The reason why starchy carbs are preferred to sugary carbs is because starchy carbs break down to glucose, where sucrose breaks down to both glucose and fructose. Fructose refills liver glycogen whereas glucose is used to refill muscle glycogen.

Blood&Iron
02-18-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Frozenmoses
Okay, I've worked out a refeed fo' my sweet, sweet ass. Please feel free to yell and scream at all of my eff ups.

Meal 1: 1 Slice WW Bread, 1 Tbsp jelly, 1 Tbsp Natty PB, 2 cups orange peach mango juice, 1 tbsp flax.
Meal 2: Detour bar, 2 servings of orange juice.
Meal 3: 1 Potato, 2 servings of turkey breast, 1 serving cheese, 1 cup orange peach mango juice.
Meal 4 (PWO): 3 scoops of Cytogainer
Meal 5: 2.5 servings of tuna, 1 Tbsp Miracle Whip, 2 slices WW Bread.
Meal 6: 1 Potato, 2 servings of turkey breast, 1 serving of cheese, 1 Tbsp of flax, 1 cup of skim milk.

And the breakdown is...

Fat - 76 g
Protein - 184 g
Carbs - 355 g
Cals - 2825

Comments?

Too much fat. TOo few carbs.

You want simple sugars on a refeed. One of the primary signals for leptin expression is glucose metabolism. So, things like kids' cereal (Lucky Charms, Count Chocula, etc), stuff like Ultra Fuel, etc.

Go for at least 500-600g carbs, keep fat around 40g, and protein at 1g/lb lbm.

I've made a bunch of posts, including my own refeeds (which have often been less than perfect) A search should answer most of your questions.

CBates
02-18-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron


Too much fat. TOo few carbs.

You want simple sugars on a refeed. One of the primary signals for leptin expression is glucose metabolism. So, things like kids' cereal (Lucky Charms, Count Chocula, etc), stuff like Ultra Fuel, etc.

Go for at least 500-600g carbs, keep fat around 40g, and protein at 1g/lb lbm.

I've made a bunch of posts, including my own refeeds (which have often been less than perfect) A search should answer most of your questions.

I'm curious and could be wrong, but wouldn't 500-600g of mostly simple carbs get stored as fat? With sucrose breaking down to fructose and refilling liver glycogen, when that fills up (which I hear is about 100g) then it starts getting stored as fat. You'd probably know a lot more about this than I would and would like to clear this up if I'm wrong.

Frozenmoses
02-18-2003, 03:31 PM
Damn, I really appreciate the help you guys. Looks like I need to get back in the kitchen and figure out a new meal plan. I'll post it in a day or so and let ya'll tear at it again. Again, thanks for the input!

And B&I - Protein intake should be 1g/lb of LBM? I thought was just BW.

Blood&Iron
02-18-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by CBates


I'm curious and could be wrong, but wouldn't 500-600g of mostly simple carbs get stored as fat? With sucrose breaking down to fructose and refilling liver glycogen, when that fills up (which I hear is about 100g) then it starts getting stored as fat. You'd probably know a lot more about this than I would and would like to clear this up if I'm wrong.
Depends.

Simple sugar and sucrose are not interchangeable terms.

Even if you do consume large amounts of sucrose-containing products, sucrose is only 50% fructose (the other 50% being glucose). This means you can eat an entire box of kids' cereal, e.g. Count Chocula (which contains something like 13g of sugar per serving, and 11 servings per box) and end up with 143g sugar, which means you're getting ~71g fructose. Yeah, if you're eating a bunch of other stuff that contains simple sugars it does start becoming more of an issue. I tend to eat a box of kids' cereal and some low-fat Hostess cakes over the course of 36 hours or so. I probably end up nearing 150g per 'day', in this case. You're right that keeping it under 100g is probably best. I tend not to worry much about it though, and concern myself more with my fat intake.

For stuff like dextrose or maltodextrin, none of this is a concern. Generally, half of my carbs, which generally end up being like 800-900g over the 36 hours, are Kool-Aid made with dextrose. I also do use stuff like instant mashed potatoes, etc.

Blood&Iron
02-18-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Frozenmoses


And B&I - Protein intake should be 1g/lb of LBM? I thought was just BW.
LBM

Frozenmoses
02-18-2003, 05:42 PM
Cool, I guess that makes sense, then. I was having a tough time figuring out how I was going to jam all of those carbs in there wile eating 165g of protein and staying at a reasonable amount of cals. Mucho appreciatado, amigo.

MrWebb78
02-18-2003, 05:42 PM
there is too many theories on the BEST formula for protein intake. keep it simple, eat alot of it, all day everyday

Blood&Iron
02-18-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
there is too many theories on the BEST formula for protein intake. keep it simple, eat alot of it, all day everyday
More protein--much as most bodybuilders refuse to consider the notion--may not necessarily be better and may, in fact, be detrimental.

THere's no evidence one needs anything in excess of 1g/lb lbm, unless using androgens.

Blood&Iron
02-18-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Frozenmoses
Cool, I guess that makes sense, then. I was having a tough time figuring out how I was going to jam all of those carbs in there wile eating 165g of protein and staying at a reasonable amount of cals. Mucho appreciatado, amigo.
I wouldn't worry much about your caloric intake. Fat and fructose should be your only real concerns IMO.

Frozenmoses
02-18-2003, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron

THere's no evidence one needs anything in excess of 1g/lb lbm, unless using androgens.

Oh, well this might make for a different situation then. I don't know if you saw my original post, but I mentioned that I'm currently using 1-Test. Does that mean I should get more than 1g/lb LBM?

Frozenmoses
02-18-2003, 08:56 PM
Ok, I've reworked the refeed again. Whip out yer claws, B&I.

Meal 1: 4 cups of Lucky Charms, 3 cups of skim milk
Meal 2: Detour bar, 2.5 servings of orange juice
Meal 3: 1 potato, 2 servings of chicken breast, 1 serving of cheese, 1 cup of orange peach mango juice
Meal 4: 3 scoops of Cytogainer
Meal 5: 4 cups of Lucky Charms, 3 cups of skim milk
Meal 6: 1 potato, 2 servings of turkey breast, 1 serving of cheese

Breakdown:

Fat - 41g
Protein - 191g
Carbs - 508g

Cals - 3185

Blood&Iron
02-19-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Frozenmoses
Ok, I've reworked the refeed again. Whip out yer claws, B&I.

Meal 1: 4 cups of Lucky Charms, 3 cups of skim milk
Meal 2: Detour bar, 2.5 servings of orange juice
Meal 3: 1 potato, 2 servings of chicken breast, 1 serving of cheese, 1 cup of orange peach mango juice
Meal 4: 3 scoops of Cytogainer
Meal 5: 4 cups of Lucky Charms, 3 cups of skim milk
Meal 6: 1 potato, 2 servings of turkey breast, 1 serving of cheese

Breakdown:

Fat - 41g
Protein - 191g
Carbs - 508g

Cals - 3185

Macros look fine. Cheese seems a bit of an odd choice, though. The less fat you consume the better, and the cheese doesn't really gel with that goal. But if you've absolutely got to have it, go ahead. Again, your macros look pretty good--provided you've added everything up correctly. I'd also ditch the juice (bunch of fructose there) for Kool-aid made with dextrose, or more Cytogainer (which I assume is just a carb drink).

Frozenmoses
02-19-2003, 08:23 AM
Cool, I appreciate the tips, B&I. You've been an immense help.

Blood&Iron
02-19-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Frozenmoses


Oh, well this might make for a different situation then. I don't know if you saw my original post, but I mentioned that I'm currently using 1-Test. Does that mean I should get more than 1g/lb LBM?
I'm not too familiar with protein need while using androgens. Par Deus, who owns Avant Labs, has given the figure of 2g/lb bodyweight if one is bulking. Since you're dieting and you'll probably gain little muscle, you probably don't need anymore than 1g/lbm on your regular dieting days. Besides, adding a bunch more protein is going to make it difficult to keep your calories low. In any event, your protein intake on refeed days looks fine.