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throwerboy
02-21-2003, 10:33 AM
I was wondering if anyone has played with the idea of optimizing test and gh with meal timing, workout time and foods which may increase these hormones, along with insulin. It seems possible, if you can keep you insulin stores just right, workout in the morning and then ween carbs out and increase fat throughout the day. If anyone knows of such diet, i'd like to hear about it.
Cheers...

Paul Stagg
02-21-2003, 10:53 AM
I think you would be pretty dissapointed with all the effort you put into it vursus the results.

In general, daily dietary adjustments have little meaningful effect on hormone levels.

Train hard, eat right.

AJ_11
02-21-2003, 12:11 PM
Actually there is a book and a diet sorda what you are looking for. I am just trying it for the first time and there are other member that are on this board that are currently on it. THe Book is called Natural Hormonal Diet (NHE) and it can be found at www.extique.com. It is really a good read. The Diet itself I think by far it is the best that I have ever been on because I feel great and losing some excess bodfat.

LAM
02-21-2003, 03:19 PM
manipulating the HPT-Axis through diet is almost impossible. as serum (unbound) test increases more is bound to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)...

throwerboy
02-21-2003, 03:20 PM
ahhem, Paul. tell me how much a differnece you'd get in hormone balance if you just ate carbs as apposed to just eating protein and fat. Saying eat right and train hard is over simplification of the overall issure. What i'm looking for is a way to consistantly improve my peak test in the morning, getting excellent carbohydrate and glycogen absorbtion, and maximizing gh. These are all anabolic hormones. Lets make them work in consert.

First i want to make my pituitary work to maximize all homone production. I'm finding foods with heavy b complex, e, zinc, a, c, iodine, selenium and maganese.

Anyway, i figure if you played with the ratios enough and could stick with it; your body would utilize the nutrients effectively.

cheers

LAM
02-21-2003, 04:24 PM
ZMA and 3 grams of L-Arginine when you first wake up

AJ_11
02-21-2003, 04:43 PM
People that are on High carb/ low fat diets generally have lower testosterone levels.

aka23
02-21-2003, 07:55 PM
The article at http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/incledon/diet02.htm gives a good summary of the effects of diet on testosterone level. They found that "the best type of diet to follow if your only concern is to increase testosterone levels and make more of it available to the body for the purpose of improving lean body mass and/or performance" should have the following:

1. Carb needs to exceed protein by at least 40%
2. Fat intake should be at least 30%
3. Saturated fat needs to be higher than polyunsaturated fatty acids
4. Fiber intake needs to be low

Their example diet to maximize testosterone levels was 55% carbs, 15% protein, 30% fat.

To keep testosterone as low as possible in order to minimize cardiovascular disease risk factors and/or hormone-dependent cancer risks, their example diet was 50% carbs, 30% protein, 20% fat.

throwerboy
02-21-2003, 08:16 PM
lam, arginine and zma? is this your own stack or did you hear of it somewhere? its almost worth a try. any data, or is it all anicdotal? also, in canada they've banned almost all free form aminos, so they're a little more expensive if you want to buy them. Stinging nettle and piperine should get you around the shbg test binding problems.

AJ_11
02-22-2003, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by throwerboy
in canada they've banned almost all free form aminos, so they're a little more expensive if you want to buy them.

Huh? really:scratch:

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-22-2003, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by throwerboy
ahhem, Paul. tell me how much a differnece you'd get in hormone balance if you just ate carbs as apposed to just eating protein and fat. Saying eat right and train hard is over simplification of the overall issure. What i'm looking for is a way to consistantly improve my peak test in the morning, getting excellent carbohydrate and glycogen absorbtion, and maximizing gh. These are all anabolic hormones. Lets make them work in consert.

First i want to make my pituitary work to maximize all homone production. I'm finding foods with heavy b complex, e, zinc, a, c, iodine, selenium and maganese.

Anyway, i figure if you played with the ratios enough and could stick with it; your body would utilize the nutrients effectively.

cheers

He wasn't saying just eat one macro. He was very much right in what he said. You'd probably raise more cortisol worrying about getting everything right and you'd totally negate any positive effects.

Weight lifting boosts testosterone (generally) so increases protein synthesis for about 36 hours after lifting. Sleep gives you the hGH (a negible amount, but since you're so concerned about it i thought i'd mention it).

Put yourself in calorie surplus to ensure your system doesn't slowly shut down and reduce most anabolic hormones.

Get plenty protein, EFAs and eat carbs. Multivitamins and minerals should be mandatory for someone regularly training.

Mess about with supplements if you have the naivety..er..i mean money to do so.

end of the day, to do all those things you want to do without driving yourself crazy:

a) Lift heavy (and smart).
b) Eat enough.
c) Get enough sleep.
d) Quit worrying, cause stress is bad, mmmkay?...

Paul Stagg
02-22-2003, 04:52 PM
This is a perfect example of the overcomplication of health, strength, and fitness.

ALL you need to do is what I said and what TCD said.

Spending more time/energy/money on it *might* make a difference between 98% and 99% - certainly elite levels.

When you are competing on a national stage, maybe it will mean the difference between 10th and 11th.

Berserker
02-22-2003, 05:34 PM
I agree, some people over complicate things. It make a difference, but probably not a whole lot.

aka23
02-22-2003, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by throwerboy
ahhem, Paul. tell me how much a differnece you'd get in hormone balance if you just ate carbs as apposed to just eating protein and fat. Saying eat right and train hard is over simplification of the overall issure. What i'm looking for is a way to consistantly improve my peak test in the morning...

The article I linked to in my earlier post suggests that the diet changes you mentioned may have a signifciant impact impact on testosterone. You wrote "just ate carbs as apposed to just eating protein and fat":

Upping carb% while holding fat constant and decreasing protein was assoiated with an increase in testosterone, even to the point where the carb to protein ratio was 7 to 1. However, if carb is increased while holding protein constant and decreasing fat, then testosterone decreases. The negative impact of a low fat diet seems to be a greater impact than the positive impact of a high carb to protein ratio. Further complicating the issue, polyunsaturated fat has a negative impact on testosterone , while saturated and monosaturated fat has a positive impact on testosterone. So it follows that getting the extra carb by lowering polyunsaturated fat would increase testosterone.

So answering your question, it depends whether you are getting the extra carb by decreasing protein, decreasing fat as a whole, or specifically decreasing polyunsaturated fat.

Based the article increased testosterone was associated with:
1. High carb to protein ratio (low protein, no ketosis)
2. High saturated fat to polyunsaturated fat ratio
3. Moderately high total fat % (>= 30%, but not extremely high)
4. High cholesterol
5. Low fiber
6. Lots of sleep
7. Not fasting or doing extreme dieting
8. Not having excessive body fat

Some of the above dietary measures are not healthy and increase risk of numerous serious illnesses. Having a very high testosterone level is not healthy either. I would suggest sticking to a more typical diet and not doing anything especially unusual.

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-23-2003, 07:29 AM
aka, a lot of people (read: most) find that they do better with higher protein intakes than 15% of daily caloric intake.

I usually never let mine drop below 30% regardless of the "type" of diet i'm doing or what my goals are.

aka23
02-23-2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
aka, a lot of people (read: most) find that they do better with higher protein intakes than 15% of daily caloric intake.

I usually never let mine drop below 30% regardless of the "type" of diet i'm doing or what my goals are.

I am assuming by "people" you mean avid weightlifters. A 180 lb mail weightlifter who ate 3000 calories would need to eat about 19% of calories from protein to get to the 0.8g/lb commonly recommended minimum for adult for adults building muscle. 15% of calories would give him 0.625g/lb. This is right on the threshold of the amount that most studies find is necessary for +nitrogen balance in novice weighlifters.

My post only discussed the impact of diet on testosterone. It did not discuss optimimum levels of protein for muscle building. Acording to the article a person eating a 60% carb / 10% protein / 30% fat diet would probably have more available testosterone than a person eating a 50% carb / 20 % protein / 30 % fat diet. However, the second guy would likely gain more muscle in a gym because 10% protein is likely to be below optimum levels for building muscle in adults.

On the otherhand, there would probably be no muscle benefit to go beyond recommended levels of protein (0.7g/lb to 1.0g/lb, according to Lemon). And doing so may negatively impact testosterone levels. This issue is further discussed in the Ask Alice column at http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1590.html . "Alice" is actually a team of Columbia University health educators and health care providers, along with information and research specialists from health-related organizations worldwide. The referenced column claims..

"Carbohydrates not only provide fuel for the muscles, but they also bring about a hormonal response that enhances muscle synthesis. When the ratio of protein to carbohydrate intake is 1:4 (15 percent of calories from protein and 60 percent of calories from carbohydrates), testosterone levels used in muscle building have been known to increase the most for all healthy people."

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-23-2003, 09:05 AM
I wasn't arguing with you.

I was just saying that regardless of how much you want to play around with various macros to assist various hormones in the body, most people (yes, weight lifters) notice better results using protein intakes higher than 15%.

Paul Stagg
02-23-2003, 04:30 PM
AND the variations caused by such dietary manipulations don't amount to much.

Don't overthink this stuff.

aka23
02-23-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Paul Stagg
AND the variations caused by such dietary manipulations don't amount to much.

One of the referenced studies found that testosterone levels were an average of 28% lower on a 44% protein, 35% carb, and 21% fat diet than on a 70% carb, 10% protein, 20% fat . (Note that I am not advocating a 10% protein diet. I feel this level is too low for optimal muscle gains.) The full range of change for subjects was 10% to 93% lower. The subject whose testosterone level dropped 93% (14x lower!) certainly had a significant change. I agree that moderate changes such as adjusting protein/carb by 10% are unlikely to amount to much. However, I think the changes may be more significant for extreme cutting diets such as the type that involve ketosis and/or low calorie intake.

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-23-2003, 05:29 PM
Was that on a hyper or hypocaloric diet?

And what types of fat were the testers on?

And how many were tested, any idea?

And any idea if they measured total serum test (including bound test) or just free test?

aka23
02-23-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Was that on a hyper or hypocaloric diet?

And what types of fat were the testers on?

And how many were tested, any idea?

And any idea if they measured total serum test (including bound test) or just free test?

The study used seven normal men from 23-43 years of age and compared a high protein diet to a high carbohydrate diet. They each ate between 2400 and 2500 kilocalories per day and had bodyweights ranging from 64-72 kg (average weight ~= 150lb.). SHBG-bound T and fT were not measured. I am not sure of the type of fat the testers were on.

The refernce info is:
Anderson KE. Rosner W. Khan MS. New MI. Pang SY. Wissel PS. Kappas A. Diet-hormone interactions: protein/carbohydrate ratio alters reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their respective binding globulins in man. Life Sciences. 40(18):1761-8, 1987 May 4.

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-23-2003, 05:48 PM
So how did they measure the decrease in test?

And did they make considerations for any outside interferences that may cause the reduction?

And i'm not knocking your evidence by any means, but n=7 is better than n=6, but not quite a good as n=8 or n=100.

aka23
02-23-2003, 06:34 PM
They measured total testosterone. I imagine they used some type of blood test, but I do not know for sure and this is not my area of expertise. I would expect that the full report would detail the procedure used. Other studies have come to similar conclusions. One example is (Volek, Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise. , 1997). The referenced Columbia University health column said that that testosterone levels increase the most when the protein to carbohydrate intake is 1:4 , but they did not list the studies that came to this conlcusion.

hemants
02-24-2003, 09:09 AM
The most important nutrient for testosterone is zinc.

Red meat is high in zinc but it's not the only source by a long shot.

Studies that do not equalize zinc intake in the control group aren't really that meaningful IMO.

The other thing, of course, is that one gets adequate healthy fats as well.

Paul Stagg
02-24-2003, 09:42 AM
You are somewhat missing my point.

I agree that there are macro mixes that IN GENERAL may influence hormonal response.

However, daily fluctuations in diet don't amount to much (ie eating a certain thing in the morning to boost T, or in the evening to boost Hgh)

throwerboy
02-24-2003, 10:37 AM
Looking at the ongoing debate, i've been able to come to a conclusion. Small dietary changes are all the natural bodybuilder/powerlifter/recreational lifter has. And if there is a 1-2 % difference that can be achieved by changing diet, thats an acceptable result. This is not a replacement for prohormones, creatine, or steroids. Assuming you were on one of those supplements, i know i would want to maximize my results. And in the end, i'd be willing to bet it makes a difference(see=winners, and losers).

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-24-2003, 10:58 AM
Throwerboy, go for it. But a lot of people don't have the time or patience to bother with it, and they get along just fine.

DC Hardgainer
02-24-2003, 09:43 PM
it looks like eating just to increase test might actually diminish gains, and end up giving you a heart attack...i think i will stick to my well balanced diet ( i know this isnt the supplement part of the forum, but a product like Tribex-500 might effect test levels more than rearanging your diet would) got zinc?

throwerboy
02-25-2003, 12:23 AM
actually, i am looking for a diet to go together with a supplement that is currently being formulated and tested by my co-workers. We were thinking it would be a good idea to actually give someone the proper diet to go with a supplement, instead of letting people go hapharzard into something new. So we're playing with whole food diets and macronutrient ratios, as well as working with NDs and nutritionists.

The_Chicken_Daddy
02-25-2003, 08:49 AM
Who do you work for?

DC Hardgainer
02-26-2003, 12:02 AM
thats a good question chicken daddy.

throwerboy
02-26-2003, 01:32 AM
i work for a local company called Lifestylemarkets, www.lifestylemarkets.com, and the person doing the formulation works with me, and for a vitamin company called nutristart. its locally based out of Victoria, B.C.