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BigPoppaHolla
03-05-2003, 05:28 PM
I have a quick question about my postworkout shake. My question is; can i add regular sugar (as i am unable to find dextrose) to my shake in order to get the insulin spike? If so how much? how many teaspoons? If i should not use regular sugar, what else can I use?? Thanks

bradley
03-06-2003, 02:31 AM
I wouldn't use regular sugar as it is sucrose which is a combination of glucose and fructose, and fructose is not ideal post-workout. You could try and find some powdered gatorade which you can purchase at most supermarkets or eat some foods that have a high GI like white rice or white bread.

_-_v_-_
03-06-2003, 08:26 AM
Buy SweetTarts.

Pure dextrose.

Frozenmoses
03-06-2003, 08:27 AM
Why can't you find dextrose? Go to www.supplementdirect.com and order that crap dirt cheap.

Silverback
03-06-2003, 08:49 AM
Either Gatorade, Powerade or Skittles are my post-workout friends :D

_-_v_-_
03-06-2003, 10:54 AM
WTF?

That post-workout shake makes no sense, IMO.

mr_hand
03-06-2003, 12:42 PM
What I do is eat a big bowl of my favorite sugary breakfast cereal, and down a whey shake. I've been using Cookie Crisp as of late.

_-_v_-_
03-06-2003, 03:19 PM
I'm saying that it doesn't make sense.

That has few simple carbohydrates and enough fat to slow digestion. Bad idea for post-workout recovery.

MrWebb78
03-06-2003, 04:04 PM
coincidentally enough milk is not a high GI carb, and slows abosrbtion, generally not a good idea. and why the raw egg? the whey protein should be enough, just do 40-50 grams

bradley
03-06-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by bigdaddykrull
well think of what the body needs after a workout. the muscles after weight resistance are craving amino acids during and after a workout, when cardio is done the body is craving carbs. the shakes are great for post weight training. plus milk and cream is full of simple sugars, thats why they are so high in carbs.
but for the thread originator i would suggest the most simple post workout drink that money can buy is good old fashioned pre made choclate milk. just check the labels if you dont believe me
cheers:D

You are right in that you need protein postworkout but the simple carbs from high GI carbs will cause an insulin spike which will help shuttle nutrients into your muscles and will also refill muscle glycogen.

Milk sugar, lactose, is relatively low on the GI I believe and the caisen protein is a slow digesting protein compared to whey. The milk and cream would slow digestion as previously mentioned which is not ideal postworkout.

As for a raw egg the risk of salmonella is enough of an argument for me.

Berserker
03-06-2003, 04:36 PM
As far as raw eggs go I make a point to drink it instantly. But keeping cold is probably all right. Theres alot of debate on whether to use milk or water for a shake. There was supposed to be a round table on it. Personally I use milk, and don't worry about it. No science, I just like it with milk.

bradley
03-06-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by bigdaddykrull
i agree about the egg thats why you should keep refrigerated but you must remember while insulin spikes may cause a flush of aminos, too much sugar or carbs will have a fat layering effect and the spike will not be very signifigant unless you follow a fairly low carb diet.


So you are saying that high GI carbs postworkout will not cause an insulin spike unless you are following a low carb diet? I have to disagree with you there. Exercise increases insulin sensitivity so it will not take a massive amount of carbs to cause an insulin spike. Too many carbs will make you gain fat, but a postworkout shake with high GI carbs and whey protein will not cause a "fat layering effect" as you call it.

bradley
03-06-2003, 04:39 PM
say "nope none here" then start looking for aminos to break down, by taking in a protein source the body will use that source for the energy instead of breaking down muscle tissue.

This is true, but if the body uses the protein for energy then what will it use for muscle repair?

bradley
03-06-2003, 05:09 PM
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/haycock/postexercise.htm

Might want to read this.

smalls
03-06-2003, 07:07 PM
You shouldnt be worried just about "repairing muscles" but about replenishing lost glycogen, as that is your bodies main concern post workout.

Also can someone direct me to studies that show that insulin sensativity (on a high carb diet, low gi) is decreased to such an extent that a that taking in hi gi carbs cause no signigicant raise in insulin. (seriously this has been discussed before here I think it is greatly exagerated). If this where the case we would all be diebetics. Sorry I am too lazy to find them now.

_-_v_-_
03-06-2003, 07:19 PM
Krull, quite frankly, you need to buy yourself a basic biology book.

Saint Patrick
03-06-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by bigdaddykrull
WOULD THE PEANUT GALLERY LIKE TO CONTRIBUTE OR SIT AND BABBLE


I don't think that's necessary. It's just plain disrespectful.

_-_v_-_
03-06-2003, 10:30 PM
the only time i ever hear of someone using a carb source post workout is through cardio training

I think this says it all right here.

Vido
03-06-2003, 10:40 PM
:withstupi

bradley
03-07-2003, 02:30 AM
If the post exercise meal is lacking in carbohydrates, the replenishment of glycogen is delayed.

As smalls said you are trying to refill lost muscle glycogen and simple carbs postworkout will refill glycogen the fastest.



Some forms of fat may delay gastric emptying which theoretically could slow the rate at which nutrients become available to tissues. We can only speculate whether this would have any "long term" effect on gains. Most research indicates that glycogen replenishment is delayed but not reduced when gastric emptying is prolonged.

So why would you want fat postworkout?


Studies have shown an increased ability of muscle tissue to take up serum glucose immediately following strenuous exercise (Goodyear 1998). This is due to what is called, "non-insulin dependant glucose uptake".

Another good reason for carbs postworkout.

The quotes were taken from the article posted above (written by Bryan Haycock).

mr_hand
03-07-2003, 09:28 AM
Are you saying, that you are supposed to ingest hi GI carbs after cardio too?

fuzz
03-07-2003, 10:00 AM
The main gist of the article:


An emphasis on high glycemic carbs, complete readily digestible proteins such as whey or high quality soy, and essential fats such as flax oil will meet the criteria for an effective post exercise meal.

I think Haycock is recommending the flax oil because it certainly can't hurt, and EFA's post workout could help - though there isn't really enough research to determine if it does or not, as Haycock mentions.

So basically, if you weigh 200 lbs...something like:
80 grams dextrose/maltodextrin
40 grams whey
1 tsp flax oil

Would be great.

smalls
03-07-2003, 02:00 PM
Krull, look at fuzz's post. NOBODY is suggesting only high gi carbs alone. We are just saying glycogen replenishment is your body's main biological need post workout. So carbs + protein. We were refutting your idea that protein is all that is really needed.

And thanks Bradley, I can't beleive someone actually noticed one of my posts.

bradley
03-07-2003, 02:15 PM
I think fuzz and smalls have stated good points and here is something posted by Lyle McDonald that is of interest.


http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=392CD3AB.10E7F177%40onr.com

The Haycock article also stated that the study was not all that well controlled and more studies needed to be performed. It also states that effect of the fat in the mixed meal group was debateable and as fuzz stated this is the reason they recommend flax to be included in the postworkout shake. Liquid fats by the way will not slow absorbtion. Notice that the article recommends HIGH GI carbs, a quick digesting protein, and EFA's for a good postworkout shake.

MrWebb78
03-07-2003, 03:39 PM
lets put it this way...something we can all agree on, there is no postworkout shake thats going to have us waking up the next morning doubled in size, so lets just agree that as long as youre eating SOMETHING! preferably with protein and carbs(high GI!!! my 2 cents), then youll be fine


and krull, you might wanna think about something, if all you have is one book as a reference, versus 20,000 articles and books that argue your 1 book, you just *might* be wrong, not that youre wrong, but the author of that book is wrong. but hey he prolly just wrote the book to make a profit on more carb-free protein bars, apprentice of mr atkins.

Behemoth
03-07-2003, 03:40 PM
Krull, first off, why don't you try writing all your posts in one as oppose to 30 separate.

As far as chocolate milk being the supreme post workout nutrition thats just ludacris. As far as protein goes, milk is 80% cassein 20% whey. Why not pure 100% whey protein? That's would make for a better supreme shake. And as far as carbs from the milk go, like has been said, lactose is not very quick, GI is moderate (around 70 something I believe, I could be wrong) but why not go with a chart topping 100 with dextrose?
The vitamins milk contribute to are merely A and D, why not just take a multivite and get them all, including A and D.
Plus, I don't know if your using whole milk or not because MOST chocolate milk is made from whole milk or 2%. Which as far as post workout goes satty fats would be the absoloute last thing you'd want to ingest.

MrWebb78
03-07-2003, 03:57 PM
actually milk is a 34 on the GI scale, at least on my chart. so thats even worse

Maki Riddington
03-07-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by bigdaddykrull
well think of what the body needs after a workout. the muscles after weight resistance are craving amino acids during and after a workout, when cardio is done the body is craving carbs. the shakes are great for post weight training. plus milk and cream is full of simple sugars, thats why they are so high in carbs.
but for the thread originator i would suggest the most simple post workout drink that money can buy is good old fashioned pre made choclate milk. just check the labels if you dont believe me
cheers:D

*** If money is low then I guess this would suffice, but I can not see how an individual on a tight budget can not afford a baggy of dextrose.

Maki Riddington
03-07-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Berserker
Theres alot of debate on whether to use milk or water for a shake. There was supposed to be a round table on it.

*** The Round table will be out next month.:)

Maki Riddington
03-07-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by bigdaddykrull
hey bradley i think we are getting way off topic here and should maybe transfer alot of our debate to a new thread, the original question was about post workout shakes so maybe instead of debating we should just try and give the guy our recomends
agreed?
im still sticking to choclate milk as a great post workout drink, high carbs, high protein, minerals and vitamins mmmmmmm good
oh and ___v____ i had a minor in universtiy in Biology!!

***If you are taking a high grade whey protein, and a multi vit post workout then milk does not need to be used. Although it can be used, there are much more efficient and cost effective ways to go about shuttling the proper nutrients into the muscle cells.

Remember, timing is everything.

Carbohydrates Post Workout

Timing is everything. After an intense strength training session the first thing on most peoples minds should be to saturate their muscles with some form of carbohydrate.
Anabolic hormones such as Insulin go to work by shuttling the sugar that has been absorbed by the body. In the midst of this stream, amino acids are caught up as well and driven into the muscle cell along with the sugar.
Itís become evidently clear as research techniques improve that the type and amount of sugars that are ingested play an important role in determining how well your muscles soak up everything.
Carbohydrates that are recommended to be used post workout are dextrose, fructose and maltodextrin.
The amount of carbohydrates that can be used varies from 0.4-0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight. In a 200 lb individual, this would equate to taking roughly 80-160 grams of carbohydrates in the various forms mentioned
Glucose is a monosaccharide, (this form of sugar canít be broken down any further, itís in its simplest form) which means it will be digested at a fast and efficient pace, this makes it an ideal carbohydrate for increasing blood sugar levels quickly.
Fructose, on the other hand, must be metabolized by the liver first before it can be absorbed into the muscles.
Fructose should be primarily used for replenishing liver glycogen stores and not muscle glycogen stores. Glucose and fructose are chemically similar; the only difference between the two is the structure. Maltodextrin is used to maintain blood sugar levels and ensure that there is a steady release of sugar into the blood stream.
In short, ingesting some glucose based drink; a small portion of fructose as well as some maltodextrin has so far proven to be the superior method of going about restocking the muscles glycogen stores.
You should be able to purchase these various carbohydrates in powder form for a decent price at any local supplement shop.

Maki Riddington
03-07-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by bigdaddykrull
this is from your article brad
"2. The only group that experienced a significant drop in cortisol levels was the mixed meal group. The carbohydrate-only group showed that neither blood glucose nor insulin had any effect on reducing cortisol levels. In contrast, the mixed meal group showed cortisol levels even below those in the control group who did no exercise and were also fed the same meal.

*** Cortisol levels start to rise when glycogen stores are low, so to offset this, I would suggest sipping on some gatorade through out your workout, or have a pre workout shake with some dextrose thrown in.

This abstract backs my point up.

Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation.

Kraemer WJ, Volek JS, Bush JA, Putukian M, Sebastianelli WJ.

The Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306, USA. wkraemer@gw.bsu.edu

Nine resistance-trained men consumed either a protein-carbohydrate supplement or placebo for 1 wk in a crossover design separated by 7 days. The last 3 days of each treatment, subjects performed resistance exercise. The supplement was consumed 2 h before and immediately after the workout, and blood was obtained before and after exercise (0, 15, 30, 45, and 60 min postexercise). Lactate, growth hormone, and testosterone were significantly (P </= 0.05) elevated immediately postexercise. The lactate response was significantly lower during supplementation on days 2 and 3. Growth hormone and prolactin responses on day 1 were significantly higher during supplementation. After exercise, testosterone declined below resting values during supplementation. Cortisol decreased immediately postexercise on day 1; the response was diminished on days 2 and 3. Glucose and insulin were significantly elevated by 30 min during supplementation and remained stable during placebo. Insulin-like growth factor-I was higher during supplementation on days 2 and 3. These data indicate that protein-carbohydrate supplementation before and after training can alter the metabolic and hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise.

Maki Riddington
03-07-2003, 06:01 PM
Here's another small article that touches on cortisol.

http://www.poweringmuscles.com/musclerecovery.asp?article_number=6