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Hercules
07-30-2001, 02:17 PM
ok, i was reading an article in the new issue of muscle media, got bored and bought one, anyway, the article was about the government's food guide pyramid and the conspiracy behind it. i found it interesting the guy who wrote it is'nt against it but rather for revising it to show portion sizes and such. he says it's too simple. there are some who say the pyramid is the way it is due to the meat, dairy and egg industry paying off the chairman of the group that made the thing. this group says that milk should be an optional way to get calcuim, that there are other food sources for it. anyway, one dietician says it works because it fits everyone's life style giving them a wide variety of foods to work with and eat. she says meats, eggs, and dairy are less needed in the diet and therefore are where they are, carbs are very essential and are where they are, at the base.

my outtake on the pyramid, crap! why? it has carbs at the base, no wonder so many people are overweight,they eat 11 servings of breads, pastas and such a day. fruit tastes good and has vitamins and minerals but let's face it, it's sugar. i think the pyramid is based on the processed food industy paying off the government. it is based on profit. carbs are fillers, not essential. man did not always eat breads, and such, they ate meat, eggs and drank milk. they also ate leafy veggies and shrubs. i know some will disagree but that is fine. i stand firm on the low carb way of eating. i just started the greenwhich diet, a very healthy low carb diet. i won't go into details now but if you want a good book to read, then pick up the greenwhich diet by carlon m. colker. well, gotta bail, time to get ready for work. i look forward to getting yall's input on this. i'll check back after work. peace!

Cackerot69
07-30-2001, 02:20 PM
It's the staple of the US governments plan to lower testosterone and increase the estrogen levels of the population.

Tryska
07-30-2001, 02:22 PM
a book i'm in the middle of right now is The Protein Power Lifeplan...they quote studies and everything..*lol*

actually lots of good info on the biology of things....i agree with you btw....well except for the part about fruit. Fruit was readily available and easily recognizable back in the day, so our bodies are designed ot handle it well.

Wizard
07-30-2001, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Cackerot69
It's the staple of the US governments plan to lower testosterone and increase the estrogen levels of the population.
That's it.

the doc
07-30-2001, 03:16 PM
food pyrimid is designed to help farmers not people.

someone must buy all the grain that is way overproduced in this country. Having carbs as the main group assures a constant market for these farm products

Podium Kreatin
07-30-2001, 05:28 PM
the food pyramid is just a simple guide ppl teach to young children to stay in okay condition.
the carbs on the bottom comes from grains, which shouldn't make ppl obese fat.

Taras
07-30-2001, 08:19 PM
Part of the basis for the food pyramid is looking at the diets of everyday people (not athletes) who live in cultures where people are generally healthy and have a low incidence of diet-related problems like obesity, diabetes, and heart disease. A good example would be rural Europeans and Middle Easterners who live in countries around the Mediterranean. These people are probably also a lot more physically active than the average American, and also probably eat a lot less. Eating 11 American -size servings of bread or pasta is a lot different than eating 11 Greek or Lebanese-size servings.

Hercules
07-31-2001, 12:06 AM
i agree with all yall.

ok, day number 1 of the greenwwhich diet is about over with. i've had only one serving of carbs, my pre work out drink which was loaded with mahuang and caffine so you get the picture. anyway, i feel pretty good, had more energy today than usual.

ok, back to the subject, lol, it's a conspiracy and built around lobbyist. i say we should petition the government to get them to use studies from universities that have done studies on high protein diets, low carb diets, moderate carb/protein diets, bodybuilding diets, ect, ect. let's figure this logically, if you eat the servings on the higher end of the scale(11 servings rather than 6 for carbs, 3 for meats and dairy, and 5 for fruits and veggies and very little fat/sugar) then you get 3500 cals, around that anyway, lower end you get 1100. but yes it is made for average people but then again they claim athletes should follow it too and they will benefit from it. if everyone followed it then we would only have one child per household. shame shame uncle sam.tuttut

Wizard
07-31-2001, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Taras
Part of the basis for the food pyramid is looking at the diets of everyday people (not athletes) who live in cultures where people are generally healthy and have a low incidence of diet-related problems like obesity, diabetes, and heart disease. A good example would be rural Europeans and Middle Easterners who live in countries around the Mediterranean. These people are probably also a lot more physically active than the average American, and also probably eat a lot less. Eating 11 American -size servings of bread or pasta is a lot different than eating 11 Greek or Lebanese-size servings.

The Mediterranean food guide pyramid's advices are too different than the American's one(fda).
c:/piramida.jpg

I'm gonna translate it to understant where's the difference.
At the base,it says:


Olive oil/Olives
Cheese/Yoghurt
Beans/Other pulses
Peanuts-Almonds etc
Fruits/Veggies
Bread/Pasta/Rice/Potatoes
Wheat & other cereals


At the middle


Poultry/Eggs
Fish


At the top

Red meat


It also suggests to perform physical exercise every day and to drink wine in moderation.
This way of living was followed by the residents of Creta.The majority of them were farmers and had to walk about 4km per day...

w8lifter
07-31-2001, 07:51 AM
I agree. I think the food guide is a crock. Carbs definitely have their place in any diet, but certainly shouldn't be 70%.

Every book I've read that was written by a RD suggests a diet of 60-70% carbs. Most say that the average north american diet has far too much protein. I think it's the other way around. The worst book I've read on this was Nancy Clark's Sports Nutrition Guidebook. What a joke. This chick only belives in a 70% carb diet. Supps, gear, protein...none of that will help add muscle, only a high carb diet. And she doesn't differentiate between sports. Both marathoners and bb'ers should follow 70% carb diet ....WTF?

I'm reading Avery's Sports Nutrition Almanac right now. It's the first sports nutrition book I've read that actually suggests a decent amount of protein for athletes. It's a good book if you get a chance, read it :)

Tryska
07-31-2001, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Podium Kreatin
the food pyramid is just a simple guide ppl teach to young children to stay in okay condition.
the carbs on the bottom comes from grains, which shouldn't make ppl obese fat.


hmm..actually from what i'm reading in studies and also on human biology.....grains and carbs could quite easily make people pretty obese, pretty quickly.

Gyno Rhino
07-31-2001, 09:11 AM
For sedentary people, I don't see a problem with 70% carbs, 20% protein, and 10%fat. Sure, athletes need alot more protein and whatnot, but as long as you're following the calorie rule:

Take in more than you burn ---> gain weight
Burn more than you take in ---> lose weight

You can manipulate your bodyweight with almost any macronutrient ratio. Guys that just wanna maintain a healthy weight will be fine.

Wizard
07-31-2001, 09:26 AM
But,once again:When glycogen stores are full and you continue consuming carbs,then they're gonna be stored as fat.(in the adipose tissue).And how do you suggest sedentary people to consume that many carbs?
What do you burn more when you're in rest?Carbs?
I used to believe that when you are just sitting, or standing, or whatever, you are burning mostly fat as an energy source (about 70%) and the rest as glucose, or carbs (about 30%). When you exercise at high intensities those amounts are switched, and you receive most energy from glucose.
And of course you're not gonna gain weight if you're gonna consume less calories than you're gonna burn.But your body composition could change.That's more important to me.

Tryska
07-31-2001, 09:45 AM
I agree with blackalpha....

not to mention.....once insulin floods the bloodstream in order to lower the blood sugar, because of the surge of carbs.....if the glycogen stores are full...it deposits it as fat....and insulin also keps fat from being released to be used as energy....


too many carbs - high blood glucose - high insulin - fat storage/no fat release.

70% carbs for sedentary individuals is insanity!

the doc
07-31-2001, 09:50 AM
i agree wholeheartedly with alpha and tryska

Tryska
07-31-2001, 09:53 AM
well okay then...

glad to see we are all on the same page!

:D

Cackerot69
07-31-2001, 10:04 AM
Isn't this the part where I'm supposed to disagree with everyone?

Wizard
07-31-2001, 10:05 AM
tuttut
Cack,don't do it
We're a happy family :D :angel:

Cackerot69
07-31-2001, 10:12 AM
:)

Maki Riddington
07-31-2001, 10:31 AM
I disagree.

Tryska
07-31-2001, 10:35 AM
damn damn damn maki! we had a ka-tet going....

so umm..care to divulge why you disagree? or is this like "periodization."??

Cackerot69
07-31-2001, 10:36 AM
Maki how dare you. tuttut

Alex.V
07-31-2001, 11:07 AM
I agree with Maki.

Tryska
07-31-2001, 11:10 AM
oh fine so you agree with the the disagreement to our agreement. be that way. go ahead..all of ya's.:mad:

Yaz
07-31-2001, 11:13 AM
A healthy balanced meal does not consist of: 150g Carbs, 6g Protein, 20g Fat. :D

So I agree with Alpha, and the person after him, and the person after that..... and the one after that. Too many carbs, you are going to fill up glycogen stores, and inevitably store some as fat. If you're ever in ketosis, on a CKD... on the carb loading phase, try going a little bit overboard, just once.

See if that doesn't change your mind on the way you look at 70% carbs for the rest of your life.

the doc
07-31-2001, 11:19 AM
yaz: yes, i have never been as bloated as i've been after pure carb meals.
I actually like a low carb eating regimen.

breeze
07-31-2001, 11:29 AM
Protein protein protein. To body builders it is the magic bullet or one of them. However, all the studies that I have seen suggests that there is no benefit to taking large quantities of protein. In other words large ingestion of protein doesn't transform into muscle growth. Athletes do need more protein than the average person, but even so they don't need more than 30% of their diet to be protein. Sorry Tryska for messing up the mood, but can I be included in the group hug anyway.

Tryska
07-31-2001, 11:35 AM
it's cool breeze...i don't think it's so much protein builkds muscle mass.....but at least for me, moreso, that protein was what our bodies were designed to handle.....grains not necessarily so....we can't eat grains straight off the stalk like cows can......we actually have to process them first in order for them to be digestible.....not the same for vegetables and fruit (most of them), and our bodies can have some adverse reactions to all that processed grain....

Wizard
07-31-2001, 12:08 PM
I'll get it somewhere else now..
Many people talk about what the human digestive system was designed to digest.But human is the only alive organizm in the earth that has a complex thing called "the brain".So,the human,by manipulating his brain precisely can cultivate fields and take grains from them to fuel his body.But.. this fuel is for the one who cultivated the field and not for the other one who lies on his bed all the day and doesn't need a fast-burned macro.The digestive system was designed to digerst carbs too.
My point is,that every population may have different habits of eating according to some factors.Not every eating habit is for every population.
The fda's priciples are designed in a way that the government aids in the progress of its economy.
Here in Greece,the food pyramid suggests eating olives and olive oil in a daily basis.. Why?Because its ecenomy is primaly based on agriculture and olive oil production.
Everyone must select what eating habits wants to follow,based on his personal needs.Forget the guides and the gods...

Cackerot69
07-31-2001, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by breeze
Protein protein protein. To body builders it is the magic bullet or one of them. However, all the studies that I have seen suggests that there is no benefit to taking large quantities of protein. In other words large ingestion of protein doesn't transform into muscle growth. Athletes do need more protein than the average person, but even so they don't need more than 30% of their diet to be protein. Sorry Tryska for messing up the mood, but can I be included in the group hug anyway.

There are many benefits to taking more protein than "necessary".

1. Excess protein converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis, thereby speeding metabolism.

2. Lowers insulin secretion lessening the potential for fat storage.

3. CANNOT be stored as fat when below maintenance cals, while carbs can in certain situations.

4. More energy costly, it requires more calories just to digest protein than to digest carbs or fat.

5. More filling.

I could go on and on, but high protein intake it extremely beneficial when trying to lose fat for a number of reasons.

hemants
07-31-2001, 12:22 PM
Yeah, you can't really get into the "what were we designed for" without getting into belief systems, etc. etc.

We weren't really designed to eat raw meat or grains but the counter to that is that our brains may have been designed to discover fire etc. etc. etc.(don't go there tuttutt)

Anyhow, the food guide pyramid probably started as a result of lobbying by dairy/egg/meat boards as someone said and now is just an outdated piece.

The key take away is that variety is a good thing as you will get all the macro/micro nutrients, fibre, phyto chemicals etc. if you eat a balanced diet.

The arrangement into groups is a convenience to help people see where there is overlap.

Hercules
07-31-2001, 12:38 PM
cack, you made a bit of an error in saying that it takes more energy(cals=energy) for the body to digest protein than carbs ro fat. actually it takes the same amount of energy for carbs and protein to be digested though the absorption is slower for protein. fat is the most energy costing nutrient. but you made a good point.

hemants, i disagree with the statement that the dairy, meat and egg industry lobbied to get the pyramid to fit them, it was the grain, sugar industries that did that. they say the thing is based on sound science, hogwash, it's based on prifit. you said something about a balanced diet, what is a balanced diet? according to the rda, it's cereal, juice, toast, milk to go in the cereal, and fruit. let me see, hmm, that is like 80% carbs, most of that being sugar.

i'm an advocate of low carb eating myself, but if you are an active person who works out regularly then moderate carbs would'nt hurt so long as they are complex and not simple sugars or refined processed foods. for those of us who are active and such but need to loose bodyfat, then eliminating starches, legumes and carbohydrate based foods is the way to go. eat high protein, high fiber(leafy veggies and such), moderate amounts of good fats(omega 3 and omega 6, fish oils, flax oil, ect) and drink lots of water. this is in short what the greenwich diet is like. i've been on it for 2 days now and i'm actually feeling better than when i was not on it. my energy levels are higher and my mood is better. i find it funny these carb folks talk about carbs are essential for your brain, that is wrong. your brain feeds better of of ketones than sugar. as for sedentary people, moderate carbs/moderate protein and low fat would be a better regimen in my opinion.

if anyone wants a good piece of reading and is interested in a new kind of low carb diet then read the greenwich diet by carlon colker. good stuff and i think you will be really suprised as to how he has the diet built around those who excercise and those who don't.

Tryska
07-31-2001, 12:42 PM
interesting firemedic.....i might have to take a look at that book.

thanks.

Cackerot69
07-31-2001, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by firemedic
cack, you made a bit of an error in saying that it takes more energy(cals=energy) for the body to digest protein than carbs ro fat. actually it takes the same amount of energy for carbs and protein to be digested though the absorption is slower for protein. fat is the most energy costing nutrient. but you made a good point.

No trust me, protein requires more energy during digestion than do carbs or fat. Carbs in second and fat last.

Wizard
07-31-2001, 12:48 PM
I backup Cack.
Protein needs the 1/3 of its caloric value to be digested.If you consume 100grams,the 30 are burned only to digest it...

Hercules
07-31-2001, 12:50 PM
np tryksta.

cack, it takes 9 calories to digest fat, whereas it takes 4 for carbs and protein. protein and fat are slower absorbed than carbs and therefore make you feel fuller longer. that is why you think it takes more energy to diegest. trust me i have read up on the sublject a good deal.

Cackerot69
07-31-2001, 12:53 PM
No no, fat contains 9 calories and carbs and protein contain 4, that's not how many cals it takes to digest them! I've read up on teh subject quite a bit as well :)

Alex.V
07-31-2001, 12:56 PM
Cack is talking about the thermic effect of food; and the fact that about 30% of the energy you get from protein is used to digest it. it's about 10-25% for carbs, and 3-5% for fats.

Hercules
07-31-2001, 01:02 PM
i get where you are coming from. but since absorption is slower it takes more energy to digest. seeing protein and fat are slow to absorb then yes they have a higher thermo effect than carbs. carbs are a great sleep aid, lol. seriously though i was mistaken cack, belial cleared it up for me where you were coming from. let's just all have a protein shake and do some deadlifts for the soul or something.:D

thanks to everyone for their input, this has been one of the better discussions i've seen and been in. one thing though, where is hulk, anthony, paul, gino, latman, spidey and chris? i've been waiting for their infput too but nooooo they are too good for this post, lol. shame shame fellas.tuttut

all kidding aside, again thnx and let's keep it going.

Cackerot69
07-31-2001, 01:16 PM
Well isn't it nice to come to a friendly conclusion.

Alex.V
07-31-2001, 01:22 PM
Group hug.

Tryska
07-31-2001, 01:24 PM
woohoo...the ka-tet is restored!

Alex.V
07-31-2001, 02:18 PM
quiet, you. Lest we be forced to argue again.

Tryska
07-31-2001, 02:19 PM
:eek:

:hide:

Hercules
07-31-2001, 02:20 PM
lol@belial.

hugs tryska..........seems to not want to let go......has trouble letting go......ah well :angel:

Tryska
07-31-2001, 02:21 PM
hey you! watch your hands!!
tuttut

*lol*

breeze
07-31-2001, 02:26 PM
I am not sure what is the point you guys are trying to make. The food pyramid is a balanced and healthy way to eat. Is it the only way. No. Too much protein puts a strain on your kidneys. True there hasn't been any evidence that showed healthy kidneys being damaged by an excessive protein diet, but there is evidence that a high protein diet is not good for damaged kidneys, even for kidneys that are slightly damaged. There is a lot of health risk associated with an extended high protein diet. Cack, excessive protein is turned into fat or expelled in your urine.

Alex.V
07-31-2001, 02:28 PM
It is not expelled; only the nitrogen is expelled that is removed during deamination.


*whew* I thought we actually might start getting along!

Cackerot69
07-31-2001, 02:31 PM
Excessive protein is NOT turned to fat (or excreted as Belial pointed out), unless glycogen stores are full, energy requirements are met, and repair requirements are met, ONLY then will protein be stored as fat.

Hercules
07-31-2001, 02:36 PM
i'm with belial and cack on this one. the pyramid is not a healthy way to eat. i want you to go eat all those carbs and very little protein and see how you feel and watch your weight and blood pressure. it's a friggin joke designed by the government to fool people into eating what is most profitable to them and the lobbyist.

*hands belial a salmon*

Alex.V
07-31-2001, 02:40 PM
Mmm, salmon. mana of the gods, I tell you.

My MAIN problem is that the food pyramid doesn't differentiate:

1) Lean protein from fatty protein

2) Good fats from bad fats

3) "Bad" carbs from "good" carbs.

To me, these distinctions are some of the most basic foundations of proper nutrition, and they're simply glossed over. tuttut

Wizard
08-01-2001, 05:39 AM
I can't even explain the reason why do most of the bodybuilders suggest following a 60-30-10 ratio.They do workout and need carbs while buking but bulking doesn't mean fattening like a pig...
(a Cack's approach on bulking!)

Cackerot69
08-01-2001, 10:27 AM
Haha, I use 40/30/30 most of the time bulking, and I usually gain about 5% bf is 4-5 months...along with 20lbs LBM. :)

Wizard
08-01-2001, 10:37 AM
That's the way...

Cackerot69
08-01-2001, 11:14 AM
Oh yeah.