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Sara
03-14-2003, 11:46 AM
I'm trying to figure out how to lose those last 7 lbs of fat (as in cut) and I just can't figure it out,

I wanna ask how did you guys lose those last stubborn fat, I've gotta lose that fat, a tiny bit makes me look 10 times bigger then I actually am(i'm serious) I've increased my workout intensity(5 days a week cardio, 3 days a week wieght training and 2 days gymnastics) and eat even stricter clean with no success after 2 and a half weeks(is my patience the prob?).

But how'd you guys do it, especially you gals out there??

GuitarPlayer
03-14-2003, 01:29 PM
keep at it and don't lose patience

they are the hardest to burn - like zipping up a zipper. most of it is easy but sometimes those last few zipper teeth are hard to manage. some people leave those out, and some try hard, keep at it, and zip it up all the way. which do you want to do?

Y2A
03-14-2003, 02:05 PM
Good question Sara, if you figure it out let me know. Ive been slacking lately and maintaining a "decent" body while eating lots of food :D

Tryska
03-14-2003, 02:10 PM
how much are you eating each day?

galileo
03-14-2003, 02:16 PM
Generic rules that I employ to lose fat:

1. Keep your insulin levels regulated (low) all day. My carbs all come from fibrous veges and oatmeal. No sugar, etc.
2. Make sure you are eating "enough." Tryska is likely leading up to this, but many people take "dieting" to the extreme by cutting their calories a ridiculous amount. 12 * Bodyweight calories is a rough estimate of a good low-end level to be at.
3. When I diet I like to get no less than 25% of my calories from healthy fats. Flaxseed oil, almonds, sunflower seeds, fatty fish, etc. All good sources.
4. Get enough protein and lift those weights! Nothing can substitute muscle for fat burning!

If you already know these and you are seeking advanced techniques, do a search on refeeds and leptin. Lots of useful things to read.

bradley
03-14-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Tryska
how much are you eating each day?

Check out this thread

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28068

Tryska
03-14-2003, 02:34 PM
ahh..didn't see that.

off hand though, at 146, 1400 is less than 10* bw. i would say that's a smidge low. considering the activity i would be aiming for 1800-2000 (my favorite number for a girl, i think. *lol*)


i honestly don't thinkt here is any good reason for a woman to eat below 2000 cals a day. especially an active one. i think Ice backed me up on that a while ago.

Shankerr
03-14-2003, 02:48 PM
Make sure to eat enough, and don't overdo it on cardio, i find for me at least, my body will regulate to excess cardio and won't let me drop the last bit of tonnage..

heres a sample of a diet I follow for my last bit of cutting.. I know it won't apply completely in this situation, but it'll give you an idea.. It was originally discussed over on Elite *Crum I believe*

Diet Guidelines:

Avoid All starches, You don't need them near the end

1. Eat Tons of Green Veggies (Fiber)

2. Eat Lots of Healthy Fats ex. Steak, Flax Oil, E.v. OliveOil, Salmon, Fish Oils, etc. (Energy)

3. Eat TONS of Protein (Preserve Muscles)

4. DRINK 1 1/2 gallons of H20 a day AT LEAST.

Avoid ALL fruit drinks, Juices, rice, breads.

Eat carbos ONLY after a grueling Glycogen depleting workout.

You will have Tons of energy from the Healthy Fats,
Good digestion from the Fiber,
and great Muscle Hardness and Protection from the Protein.

Healthy Fats = Energy
Protein = Muscle Hardness, Muscle Protection
Fiber = Digestion, and various other health Benefits.


Healthy Fats, Lots of Fiber, And TONS of Protein. That's the key.

Not only will you DROP bodyfat while maintaing Muscle, but you will ALSO have an abundance of energy and your skin (complexion) will be looking great as well.

Example of a Day...

1. 3 servings of Whey/ 1 tablespoon of Flax Oil
2. 8 - 10oz London Broil Steak (Extra Lean)/ 1-2 cups Green Veggies.
3. Grilled Salmon/ 1-2 cups Green Veggies.
4. 3 servings of Whey/ 1 tablespoon of Flax Oil
5. 2 Cans of Tuna/ Chopped Onions/Celery/ 1 tablespoon of Safflower Mayonaise.
6. (Post Workout) MRP or 2 servings of Whey/10oz Orange Juice.
7. 8-10oz Extra Lean Steak/ 2 cups Veggies.

Supplements:

Do NOT take ANY FAT BURNERS...why? They will Surpress your appetite TOO much, You need to eat every 2 hours. If you take a fat burner you won't be up to it.

1 Multivitamin
Extra Zinc 30 - 50mgs
Fish Oil Caps
Flax Oil Liquid
200mcg Selenium
800mgs Folic Acid
800iu Vitamin E
2grams Vitamin C

Vido
03-14-2003, 02:53 PM
That's Crum's diet. Very good imo. You can also do the modified Crum diet, where your first 3 meals are protein and low GI carbs, and all other meals are protein and fat.

Shankerr
03-14-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Vido
That's Crum's diet. Very good imo. You can also do the modified Crum diet, where your first 3 meals are protein and low GI carbs, and all other meals are protein and fat.

Exactally! I cut and pasted that into a notepad document, and just open it up when I'm ready to cut, hehe. Works really well!!

haven't tried the modified version, but I might give it a go!

Tryska
03-14-2003, 02:57 PM
who the heck is crum?

Shankerr
03-14-2003, 02:58 PM
Tha One Crumcake.. Dude over on Elite Fitness

galileo
03-14-2003, 06:02 PM
Eating every two hours is definitely not necessary.

_-_v_-_
03-14-2003, 06:37 PM
Protein = Muscle Hardness?

Sure.

Shankerr
03-14-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by galileo
Eating every two hours is definitely not necessary.

Don't forget you're not eating any starches, so you're going to be feeling incredibly hungry every two hours. Give it a try. Eat no starch at all, and cutting style calories, and see how long you last before you have to eat again :D

Eating every two hours is necessary for a diet like this

Shankerr
03-14-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by _-_v_-_


Sure.

Keeping the protein high will just basically help avoid losing too much muscle while cutting the last bit (yeah, its been debated, but it works in my case, so its my opinion). Don't forget this diet is basically designed to be used in the last couple weeks before a show to drop the last fat reserves, so anything that will help maintain LBM, and ultimately the "hard" look is welcomed with open arms

Sara
03-14-2003, 10:32 PM
Thanks for all the feedback guys!!

I thinking now of eliminating the pb and j sandwich on whole wheat it has 30 grams of carbs and changing it to somethin else like uh...I dunno more chicken or tuna sheesh in the last month I've spend like 300 bucks on food now I'm outta protien powder damn we'kk thanks anyway!!

Ironman8
03-14-2003, 10:46 PM
Ya, chicken and tuna sandwhices are good sources of protein.

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 12:51 AM
www.sndcanada.com Order from here, I get all my stuff from here, they're cheap!

Tuna is a good cheap source, as long as you buy the "light" instead of albacore. As well, chicken thighs work well on a budget :D

And yeah, lose the PB&J, and basically any breads at all ;) Beef is also another good source, I eat about a pound or more of beef a day usually. Egg whites are another great alternative to make up the gap left by the lack of PB&J!!

AJ_11
03-15-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Shankerr


Don't forget you're not eating any starches, so you're going to be feeling incredibly hungry every two hours. Give it a try. Eat no starch at all, and cutting style calories, and see how long you last before you have to eat again :D

Eating every two hours is necessary for a diet like this

Actually the opposite is true. Fat keeps you fuller longer. Starches and sugers usually burn up fast and make you hungry especially sugers. Also it really isn't nessecary to eat every two hour. I would say 2 - 4, to keep your metabolisim in high gear. Once you eliminate carbs from your diet after a while the urge to eat disappears.

I agree with protein but a diet too high in protein and too low in fat or carbs will end up being used for energy. Therefore breaking muscle protein for energy(not good) A good rule of thumb is at least 1gram per pound.

AJ_11
03-15-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Shankerr
www.sndcanada.com Order from here, I get all my stuff from here, they're cheap!

Tuna is a good cheap source, as long as you buy the "light" instead of albacore. As well, chicken thighs work well on a budget :D

And yeah, lose the PB&J, and basically any breads at all ;) Beef is also another good source, I eat about a pound or more of beef a day usually. Egg whites are another great alternative to make up the gap left by the lack of PB&J!!

I agree with snd, that where I get all my shiat. Cheap and friendly. Albacore tuna is awesome I know it's pricey but sometimes it worth it. Beef is a good source but I would add some EFA, and mono fats. Beef is too high in saturates( I am not saying it's bad for you, but there are better choices.) If your on a tight budget then canned salmon is a good choice imo.

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 01:41 AM
Salmon is definitely a good choice! Or some dietary oils. Beef is good for a change or an addition. Right now, I eat around a pound a day, but on the other hand I'm around 5000+ kCals a day right now and usually looking for additional fat calories, so it fits in quite nicely.

I find personally that when I eliminate starcehes and sugars from my diet, I get hungrier faster than when I am heavy on carbs. I then have to eat every two hours or so in order to keep hunger in check. Eating every two hours has nothing to do with keeping metabolism flowing smoothly, its merely to keep hunger in check on a diet like this. I mean, its not like you're replacing the lost carbohydrates with additional fat that would make you feel "fuller" or at least as fulla s before, you're just eliminating them without filling the void left behind.

I still challenge you, try that diet, and stick at it to the word, and then tell me I'm wrong. Things look good in theory until you try them in practice.

AJ_11
03-15-2003, 11:16 AM
That diet looks decient but I think that there is too much protein there per sitting. The problem with too many carbs especially Sugery one too much cause insulin spikes and turns fat burning off.

Shankerr, your body needs about a week or two to adjust to low carbs that is why you might have felt hungry all the time. In any diet in comes down to cals in vs. cals out. The one thing about low carb diets they eliminate the cravings and keep you fuller longer. Therefor you eat less.

aka23
03-15-2003, 11:32 AM
I believe that the Crum diet example which is listed in this thread is about 55-60% Protein / 10-15% Carb / 25-35% Fat . Some bodybuilders lose fat during the couple weeks before a contest following a cutting diet with macrnutrient percentages like this. However, you do not need to consume high protein/low carb to lose body fat. It is common for runners and other athletes in cardio sports to consume a diet that revereses the protein and carb percentages. (55-60% Carb / 10-15% Protein / 25-35% Fat). Many of these high carb/low protein athletes maintain a very low body fat all training season. You do not have to consume either of these extremes to lose body fat. You can also consume a balanced diet and lose plenty of body fat.

I would not recommend either of the two extremes for a person in Sara's situation. There are numerous health risks associated with a diet as high in protein as the "Crum Diet." Before pursuing such I diet I would recommend typing 'high protein diets' into a search engine. The low protein diet also would not be a good idea for an athletic person on a low calorie diet because it might not provide enough protein. In addition if the carbs were the wrong type (sugar or white flour type products) it could lead to other problems.

I would suggest 0.7 to 1g of protein per lb for a dieting athlete (see http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1996/04_96/protein.htm). For a woman on a relatively low cal diet, this might be 20-35% calories protein. Carbohydrates are important to fuel your many activities (fat cannot fuel anaerobic activities like weightlifting). Fat also has benefits, including increasing fat burning. I would suggest 40-60% of calories from carbohydrates and 15-30% of calories from fat. I think you should avoid processed foods and additives (sugar, butter, etc) and focus on fiber rich low GI foods like vegetables and whole grains, as well as leaner types of meats/dairy. It is also beneficial to consume a good number of small meals, instead of three large ones, and to include both carbs and protein at each meal.

I think the two most important factors in losing fat are calories and exercise/activity. I would suggest doing 30-60 minutes cardio on most days per weight at a challenging intensity that you can continue for the entire duration. To avoid overtraining, it is helpful to switch to do different types of areobic exercise on different days. For example running one day, cycling the next, interval training the next, etc. Resistance training is also important. In addition to buildining/preserving muscle, you can tone the areas you are having trouble with and improve their appearance. I would suggest separating weights and cardio by at least a meal and a few hours. It would be even better to separate them by 8-12 hours or do them on alternate days.

I would suggest setting calories at such a level that you are losing a very small amount of weight per week (well under 1 lb). Dieting with extremely low calories can result in lowering metabolism and/or losing muscle. Finally fat loss can be a slow process, especially for those last few stubborn areas. I do not think you should plan to lose more than 1 lb fat per week. You can measure progress with bodyfat measures at your gym. Scales often do not give useful information, as you may be gaining muscle while losing fat, so your weight may not reflect your body composition.

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Shankerr, your body needs about a week or two to adjust to low carbs that is why you might have felt hungry all the time. In any diet in comes down to cals in vs. cals out. The one thing about low carb diets they eliminate the cravings and keep you fuller longer. Therefor you eat less.

I always find that for me, low carb diets make me feel alot less full and create a whole new realm of cravings, which I have to fill by eating more of other foods, even over long periods of carb depletion. If I don't really fill the void (such as with this diet) then I get mega hungry at short time intervals. You are right about the adjustment period, and since you're really only supposed to run this sort of diet for a few weeks at the very end of a cut, your body never really has time to adjust, so it increases the hunger even more.

Like I said before man, this is just what works for me. Alot of the time I like to go against convention and think outside the box, especially when it comes to dieting.

the doc
03-15-2003, 11:46 AM
you need to drink plenty of water, but i feel that 1.5+ gallons is to much. Where do you think all your electrolytes will go?

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 11:49 AM
aka> Yeah, this diet is basically meant for competitive bodybuilders, not amateur users. I think when Crum originally put it up, he actually made a note to that effect. Like I said right off the bat, that diet was meant more as a guideline for her as opposed to something written in stone, and some of it in fact will not apply. I could debate with you all day about high prot/ moderate prot/ low prot diets, but I don't think thats really the issue here. Basically, she just wants to pound off the last bits of fat that are plaguing her, at which point its time to think outside the box and try something different.

Also, I'd like to see anyone who can pull of doing 60 mins of moderate intensity cardio per day without losing a significant amount of LBM, especially on a moderate to low protein diet, regardless of the style of cardio used. Not flaming, but honestly, 60 mins of moderate intensity is pushing the envelope, especially for someone her size. Maybe 60 minutes at a brisk walk would be a better choice, or 15 mins of med-high intensity, 2x a day, 4 days a week.

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 11:55 AM
Doc:


I know it won't apply completely in this situation, but it'll give you an idea..

From the original post..

Also, your renal nephrons are pretty efficient at preserving Na, K, Ca and Cl concentrations, but as well when drinking that kind of volume (and I drink more to the tune of 7-8 litres per day, so over 2 gallons) you might want to supplement your electrolytes if you find you have a deficiency.

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 12:04 PM
The more I think about it, the more I wonder why I am even bothering to defend this diet :confused: Its not even mine to begin with.... and besides that, I know it works delightfully well if used as intended. You guys can debate it back and forth all you want, but bottom line is that it works. period.

In Sara's case, she is going to want to adjust things to meet the needs of a female recreational fitness freak as opposed to a competitor (as was mentioned right off the bat). perhaps instead of debating the amount of water she should drink, and talking about how you like/dislike low carb diets, and how eating carbs may make you feel hungry faster, for gods sake, perhaps we should be assisting her with making the required adjustments.?.? :eek:

ps. Sara, if you want, I'll help you adjust things to meet your goals if you'd like..

Vido
03-15-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by aka23
I would suggest 0.7 to 1g of protein per lb for a dieting athlete.

Ok, this is getting a little bit ridiculuous. We've all seen your studies (or one study that you repeatedly put in every one of your posts) and your point has been heard. However, almost no one agrees with you, and there are some fairly knowledgeable people on this board. I, for one, am just getting tired of hearing this BS about high protein diets being bad for you.

Anyway, it is probably MORE important to eat protein when cutting than bulking, because the last thing you want to have happen is to lose all of your hard-earned muscle. I would like to see anyone retain a good portion of their muscle, while on a calorie deficient diet, taking in a mere 0.7g protein per lb of bodyweight.

On top of that, you also recommended several 30-60 min cardio sessions per week. Again, extremely catabolic. For one, cardio should not necessarily be incorporated as soon as you begin a cutting diet. One should be able to get fairly lean by modifying diet alone. When a sticking point is reached, then cardio can be thrown in to restart the process. By now, the person should be more than happy with their bodyfat, but because they didn't cut cals and do cardio at the same time they didn't create a large enough calorie deficit to start tapping into muscle. At this stage, most people on this site will be perfectly happy with their physiques. If someone were competing, this is where they would throw some last minute cutting drugs into the mix, and they would be ready to go.

In conclusion, diet, cardio, and cutting drugs, are all trump cards for you. If you play them all at once, you've got nothing left to take it to the next level.

One last thing Aka23...Show me someone who's taking in 0.7 g of protein per lb of bodyweight and doing 3-4 30-60 min cardio sessions a week, and I'll show you a twig, not an impressive body.

Sara
03-15-2003, 12:50 PM
Actually I've tried the diet that aka23 suggested and I must say that It was helpful to beginner not really to someone at the last stages I have not being any succesful with an balanced diet.

And I do consider myself advanced in bodybuilding since I'm up to 40 lb dumbells in the shouldar press and chest press for an 18 year old female to go higher is almost impossibly tough. I'm trying the high protien low carb now and eating extremely clean and hopefully I'll be successful in the next month thanx for all your help though u guys rock!!!

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Vido


I think you and I will get on quite nicely mate :D I love the twig comment. Its true! If someone wants to be an in-shape running lung, then an hour of cardio a day will achieve that. however, if you want to have a real body, its just simply not gonna work!


Sara> Good plan, and yeah, from the sounds of it, you're not a beginner, so its time to take it to the next level! Good luck!

aka23
03-15-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Vido
Ok, this is getting a little bit ridiculuous. We've all seen your studies (or one study that you repeatedly put in every one of your posts) and your point has been heard. However, almost no one agrees with you, and there are some fairly knowledgeable people on this board. I, for one, am just getting tired of hearing this BS about high protein diets being bad for you.

Only a very small fraction of my posts have links to protein studies. However, I have posted links to several different studies which all came to the same conclusion. The link in my most recent post was not a study, and it was not a link that I have posted before. It was a column in a sports nutrition newsletter written by a well known sports nutritionists who is an MS RD and the of director of Nutrition Services at SportsMedicine Brookline. The column did have references to several studies which backed up her advice. I have not mentioned any of these studies before.

I am not the only person who is posted in favor of this level of protein. The knowledgable persons who have given similar protein advice for bodybuilders include Lyle Mcdonald who has a sticky interview in this forum (http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/baseline-diet-02.htm) . I have seen quite a few others on this board recommend aiming for 1g/lb which is the upper limit of the range I listed. I do not want to get into argument about whether 60% protein diets are healthy. However, I have seen bodybuilder websites as well as medical/scientific/sports nutritionists which all admit that this type of diet is not good for your health.

If you want me to stay quiet about this issue, then prove that I am wrong. Show me studies (not advice from supplement or bodybuilder websites) indicating that getting 60% of your diet from protein is good for your long term health. Show me studies indicating that bodybuilders benefit from this level of protein (60% of protein is about 2.5g/lb protein). Show me nutritionists or sports nutritionists who advocate this type of diet.



Anyway, it is probably MORE important to eat protein when cutting than bulking, because the last thing you want to have happen is to lose all of your hard-earned muscle. I would like to see anyone retain a good portion of their muscle, while on a calorie deficient diet, taking in a mere 0.7g protein per lb of bodyweight...

One last thing Aka23...Show me someone who's taking in 0.7 g of protein per lb of bodyweight and doing 3-4 30-60 min cardio sessions a week, and I'll show you a twig, not an impressive body.

I happen to agree that athletes need a small bit more protein when dieting, as does the article I linked to. However, there is not a large increase unless the protein is being used for fuel. This can be minimized by eating sufficient carbs. I agree that if you are on a Ketogenic diet with 10-15% carbs, then you will not have sufficient carbs and additional protein will help minimize muscle loss. However, I think 60% protein is taking things too far.

I am not sure how to respond to your comment about dieting with 0.7g/lb protein since you have indicated that you do not like me posting studies about protein needs. Do you know anyone who has tried eating this level or protein? I went through a period about 8 years ago in which i did eat this level of protein (my current diet has a higher level of protein) and I did do cardio sessions lasting as long as one hour several times per week. During this period I gained muscle, and I did not look like a twig. In fact several persons who saw me with my shirt off made comments about how buffed I looked. Also note that when giving this recommendation I considered that Sara was a woman with 20 something percent body fat. I think that a male with a larger percentage lean body mass would have slightly higher protein needs.

Note that I would not recommend 30-60 minutes of cardio several times per week to eveyone. Only those who are very concerned with having a low body fat, are used to doing cardio several times per week (I believe sara said she was already doing cardio on most days per week), and who are eating a sufficient level of carbs to avoid early fatigue. I also would suggest that persons who are less experienced with cardio build up to this level.

Cardio can be beneficial for attaining a lower body fat because it burns calories/fat, helps regulate your appetite, increases your metabolism, helps maintain muscle to some extent (as opposed to dieting without cardio or weights. This benefit decreases as durantion increases, but other benefits like fat burning increas with duration.), increases fat burning enzymes so you will be a better fat burner in the future, and changes the body's chemistry in ways that favor reduing body fat (effects insulin, adrenaline, cortisol, and endorphins). In addition cardio has numerous health benefits.

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 02:09 PM
I still wouldn't say that 60mins of serious cardio is appropriate for anyone, unless your a running-lung type. Doesn't matter if you build up to it not, bottom line is thats a bit much for any bodybuilder. I know of a few that get away with doing 60 minute stints of cardio... on the other hand, they're only walking on a treadmill at 3.5 - 4 MPH, not running or whatever

Ironman8
03-15-2003, 04:21 PM
Does high intensity cardio eat away at your muscles?

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 04:34 PM
Not necessarily if you do it right, and in moderation. But at 60 straight minutes worth of high intensity cardio, you bet your balls it would. High intensity cardio like that is fairly catabolic, its cool and works well if you do it for short stretches, but you'll pay dearly if you try doing too much of it in a single sitting.

aka23
03-15-2003, 05:30 PM
Using protein muscle for energy is highest when there is inadequate muscle gylcogen. This might increase if you exercise on an empty stomache, exercise immediately following doing weights, excerise for a long duration (especially high intensity for long duration), exercise while on a low carb diet (lower starting muscle glycogen), or do not eat soon after the finishing the cardio.

Serious bodybuilders sometimes recommend less than 50 minutes total to minimmize muscle loss. Some recommend as low as 20 minutes. The downside is that your body burns the most fat during the longer durations in which muscle glycogen is lowest. The optimal duration depends on your personal goals. If your focus is cutting and you are not on a low carb diet, I would suggest 30-60 minutes on most days of the week. Many experts suggest that there will not be significant muscle breakdown for energy with this level of cardio, especially if you are eating a balanced diet. Howver, if your focus is on building muscle (not cutting), I would suggest less.

Manveet
03-15-2003, 05:50 PM
Why not do HIIT?

Shankerr
03-15-2003, 06:06 PM
Howver, if your focus is on building muscle (not cutting), I would suggest less.

Coming from a serious bodybuilder (me) I would recommend less, unless like I've said about five times now, your main goal is to be an in-shape-running-lung, skinny-but-cut type. I prefer being big, cut and sexy myself, therefore 20 min max sessions for me :D

Veet> I do interval training sometimes, but still keep it to 15-20 mins.

EdgeCrusher
03-15-2003, 06:35 PM
I saw that Fat Burners were advised against because it will suppress your appetitie too much. Even if it does, you can still eat. Fat burners are very very helpful in weight loss, even (or especially) for those last few pounds.

Shankerr
03-16-2003, 11:17 AM
the whole point of not using fat burners is because it supresses your appetite, which means that in fact, you will not be wanting to eat, and for the most part you won't be able to eat. I use a tonne of fat burners during cutting, but they are not necessary at the end for the very last little bit anyway.

Vido
03-16-2003, 12:11 PM
Ya, as far as the fat burner recommendation in that diet, it is merely to ensure that you are hungry enough to eat every 2 hours. For some people this is no problem whether using or not using stimulants, but others have more trouble eating. The recommendation is for those who aren't going to be able to pack down the required amount of food if their appetite is suppressed.