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Tru
03-15-2003, 02:27 PM
How important is it? I've heard you can't get enough healthy fats from real food without this supplement.

MrWebb78
03-15-2003, 02:37 PM
you can get plenty of healthy fats from a good diet. if you really feel you MUST supplement, then use flax, not fish oil.

fish oil impairs immune function, decreases wound healing, and since it contains skins as well, it has a higher risk of contaminants

im sure my opinion will be argued by many, but thats just my preference.

restless
03-15-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
you can get plenty of healthy fats from a good diet. if you really feel you MUST supplement, then use flax, not fish oil.

fish oil impairs immune function, decreases wound healing, and since it contains skins as well, it has a higher risk of contaminants

im sure my opinion will be argued by many, but thats just my preference.

Can you provide any kind of evidence for these claims? Fish oil in high doses can decrease blood clothing but this a consequence of a high omega 3 intake, which could also happen with flax if the thing worked half as well as most people think, but all the other bennefits far outweight the negatives. Flax on the other hand, is dependent on your body hability to convert ALA to EPA/DHA, which is usually not a very efficient process.A good quality fish oil is in all ways superior to flax.

MrWebb78
03-15-2003, 04:20 PM
I first read about these negative effects of fish oil from a book called "Power Eating" by Susan Kleiner. It sparked my curiosity enough to do some searches on the web, this was all weeks ago so I don't know what the websites were, but they did support the theory that fish oil supplementation is a bad idea, especially when you can get the correct amount of EFA's from the food source far more safely.

I personally don't supplement with fat, because it seems pretty damn pointless and a waste of money. So I don't have any reason to try and preach how great flax is, cuz I don;t use it, I was simply saying that if they MUST supplement, flax seemed a bit more safe.

restless
03-15-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
I first read about these negative effects of fish oil from a book called "Power Eating" by Susan Kleiner. It sparked my curiosity enough to do some searches on the web, this was all weeks ago so I don't know what the websites were, but they did support the theory that fish oil supplementation is a bad idea, especially when you can get the correct amount of EFA's from the food source far more safely.

I personally don't supplement with fat, because it seems pretty damn pointless and a waste of money. So I don't have any reason to try and preach how great flax is, cuz I don;t use it, I was simply saying that if they MUST supplement, flax seemed a bit more safe.

I'm sorry to inform you that you have been mislead, fish oil will improve your health, will help in your bodybuilding purposes, will protect you from hearth disease, will reduce inflamation, all in all it has a ton of positive effects, so unless you can provide some real evidence in the form of controled studies or at least some material explaining the reasonings behind this I must say you are plain wrong.

MrWebb78
03-15-2003, 05:59 PM
well I'll tell ya what, for every 10 wesbites or articles or books that i could find and make a reference to, that support my opinion, you can come right back and support your opinion with 10 more. so instead of wasting my time, I will just allow you to continue wasting your money on fish oil, its that simple.

MrWebb78
03-15-2003, 06:11 PM
oh what the hell this could actually be fun...

The most commonly reported side effects of fish oil supplements include fishy odor on the breath, upset stomach, and greasy stools. A more serious side effect can be an increase in LDL cholesterol, a harmful form of cholesterol. Large doses of fish oil supplements may also cause weight gain and decrease the absorption of vitamins A, E, D, and K from the stomach. If you have diabetes, use caution when taking fish oil supplements, they are reported to increase blood sugar.

Taking large amounts of fish oils over a long period of time may increase the risk of mild bleeding resulting in nosebleeds and bruising.

It's not a good idea to use cod liver oil as a fish oil supplement because it contains very high levels of vitamin A. High doses of vitamin A can cause headache, dry skin, itching, and liver damage.

Sources:
Fasching, P. "Fish Oil Supplementation Versus Gemfibrozil Treatment in Hyperlipidemic NIDDM. A Randomized Crossover Study," Hormonal and Metabolic Research 28 (1996).
Gray, D.R. "Fish Oil As An Adjuvant in the Treatment of Hypertension," Pharmacotherapy 16 (1996).
Micromedex Healthcare Series. Micromedex, Inc., 2001.

restless
03-15-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
well I'll tell ya what, for every 10 wesbites or articles or books that i could find and make a reference to, that support my opinion, you can come right back and support your opinion with 10 more. so instead of wasting my time, I will just allow you to continue wasting your money on fish oil, its that simple.


You know the real difference is that I can provide abstracts of studies straight out of pubmed that back up any of these claims I've just done, and you at best can quote books or reference websites. What would be good was if you avoided giving this kind of advice as thus prevent us from wasting time in ridiculous discusions like this. Fish oil supplementation is a well researched practice and established as having a very positive contribution to ones health.

To the original poster, unfortunately you got the worst possible
answer to your question from someone who clearly doesn't know much at all about this subject.

Here are a few usefull likns:



Beyondveg (http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7i.shtml)

This one I found in a quick search but seems to have a lot of info on this:

Fish oil (http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/php-ab161b.html)

MrWebb78
03-15-2003, 06:20 PM
gee like i just stated, for everything i find you will find the opposite, so to each his own, keep wasting your money. sure there are benefits, there are also side effects.

im truly sorry im not the one in the lab coat doing the tests, since thats the only arguement you will accept.

and all youre going to do is copy and paste and say hiow right it is? and then tell me what i copy and paste is going to be wrong? youre a prety bright fella arent ya

AJ_11
03-15-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
you can get plenty of healthy fats from a good diet. if you really feel you MUST supplement, then use flax, not fish oil.

fish oil impairs immune function, decreases wound healing, and since it contains skins as well, it has a higher risk of contaminants

im sure my opinion will be argued by many, but thats just my preference.

You are correct by saying that you can get proper healthy fats with a proper diet. But that is that . Most people don't have a healthy diet of fish, and eat the approprate amount of vegetables to get adequete amounts of omega 3s. Lemme ask you this this, do you take creatine, protein powder or a multi vitamin. Well with a healthy diet you can get all of these as well.

Most people have a high omega 6 count compared to omega 3. and it is important to have a proper balance of the two. Both of these are essential as the body CANNOT produce them. Flax oil is not enough as it also contains o-6. There was a disscussion on this board about this very subject http://www.wannabebigforums.com/sho...t=cod+liver+oil

Here is another that talks about the impotance of fish oil
http://www.mercola.com/article/omega3.htm and a quote

.
Routine consumption of fish oil, however, is highly encouraged as a key ingredient in improving your health. Fish oil contains the highest levels of the best omega-3 fats - those with the EPA and DHA fatty acids - and, as it is in pure form, does not pose the mercury risk of fresh fish

Maybe you don't see the importance of omega 3, however to advise someone completely against IMO is wrong.

Also to your studies it never mentions amounts these people could have been drinking, could have been to the extents of more than a cup for all you know. 1 tsp proves to be more beneficial then detremental. So to the original poster I agree with restless, fish oil is a good way to go there are also salmon oil capsules which are preety high in EPA/DHA.

MrWebb78
03-15-2003, 07:07 PM
the study i posted was 2-4 grams a day, and it was mainly for lowering triglyceide levels

no i dont take creatine, or a multivitamin, and only protein post workout(for obvious reasons)

i didnt advise them completely against it, just told them why I don't take it.

btw thanks for being more civil about making your points, as opposed to other people in this thread:)

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-15-2003, 07:23 PM
8-15 EPA/DHA fish caps a day = good.

Some experts in the field use up to 40 caps (that's 40g).

Victor_20
03-15-2003, 07:24 PM
Restless nice way getting ur point acrosstuttut

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-15-2003, 07:25 PM
He's right though.

AstronautJones
03-15-2003, 07:41 PM
:withstupi Fish oil rules! Viva fish oil!

MrWebb78
03-15-2003, 08:53 PM
if there is one thing this message board is really terrible at, is looking at things objectively

Manveet
03-15-2003, 09:28 PM
I use Udo's oil. It's got 3's and 6's don't know if it has any 9's.

AJ_11
03-16-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by Manveet
I use Udo's oil. It's got 3's and 6's don't know if it has any 9's.

It does. But there is more 3 in it compared to 6 and 9

restless
03-16-2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Victor_20
Restless nice way getting ur point acrosstuttut

I tried to be nice, unfortunately it's very hard to to point out that someone is wrong without making the persons ego feel like it has taken a hit. I didn't insult him, just pointed out that his advice wasn't the best kind.

bradley
03-16-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Manveet
I use Udo's oil. It's got 3's and 6's don't know if it has any 9's.

Here is the breakdown for Udo's:

Serving size: One Tablespoon (1/2 oz.)
Servings per bottle: 17 in 8.5 oz. bottle, 34 in 17 oz. bottle
Calories: 135
Total Fat: 14.5 gm
Saturated Fat: 1.5 gm
Polyunsaturated Fat: 10 gm
Omega-3 fatty acids: 6.4 gm
Omega-6 fatty acids: 3.2 gm
Monounsaturated Fat: 3 gm
Omega-9 fatty acids: 3 gm
Medium Chain Triglycerides: 231 mg

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-16-2003, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
if there is one thing this message board is really terrible at, is looking at things objectively

You need to take heed of your sig and try and change the situation.

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-16-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
[B]The most commonly reported side effects of fish oil supplements include fishy odor on the breath, upset stomach, and greasy stools.

Not everyone gets these problems. If they were to, they need to gradually build up doses to get more used to it.


A more serious side effect can be an increase in LDL cholesterol, a harmful form of cholesterol.

I'd be interested in seeing whether the study for this took heed of carb intake or fat intake from other sources. Or what dose of fish oil they were using.


Large doses of fish oil supplements may also cause weight gain

From eating more calories. Duh. 1 gram of fish oil is 9kcals. Count them in as part of your total intake and you'll be good.


and decrease the absorption of vitamins A, E, D, and K from the stomach.

Only in seriously high amounts, but taking extra vits via a mutlivit is more than enough to counteract this.


If you have diabetes, use caution when taking fish oil supplements, they are reported to increase blood sugar.

w-3 helps increase insulin sensitivity. I'd be interesting to see which study they derived this information from and what the conditions were.


Taking large amounts of fish oils over a long period of time may increase the risk of mild bleeding resulting in nosebleeds and bruising.

I have no idea about this. May very well be true.

restless
03-16-2003, 08:09 AM
The part about the increased bleeding at high doses is true, fish oils do contribute to the thinning of the blood and while this has a wealth of positive effects like reducing your heart workload, it can be a disavantage in some situations. If one was to be submited to some kind of surgery it would be better to stay clear of fish oils for a few weeks before. I experienced some trouble stopping the bleeding after the last time I went to the dentist to pull out my wisdom tooth, it bled for quite some time.

About the diabetes thing, while there seems to be some evidence of this, it's like low carb diets, one can't base the recomendations for healthy people on what's advisable or not for diabetics.

"There is considerable evidence showing the protective effect of dietary omega-3 fatty acids in the prevention of heart disease, especially in high-risk populations. Fish oils, which are high in fatty acids, improve high cholesterol, triglyceride levels, blood vessel and platelet function and lower blood pressure.

People with type 2 diabetes have an increased risk of cardiovascular disease, hypertension, high cholesterol, and insulin resistance. Therefore, an increased intake of omega-3 fatty acids may be of particular benefit for diabetics.

However, some recent trials suggest that fish oil could actually worsen diabetic control. In one study, the use of purified EPA and DHA (fatty acids found in fish oil) by diabetic patients was evaluated.

Participants took high doses (4 grams per day for a six-week period) of EPA, DHA or olive oil in addition to their regular diets. It was found that, compared with the olive oil, the EPA and DHA increased the blood sugar in diabetics. Interestingly, the insulin levels were not increased.

The researchers speculate that the EPA causes the liver to break it down and actually increase its production of glucose in the process.

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, November 2002 Vol. 76, No. 5, 1007-1015"

Tru
03-16-2003, 10:47 AM
So to the people who get enough healthy fats without supplements.. What foods are you eating?

Eggs, milk, nuts, peanut butter, vegetables? Any specific veggies?

MrWebb78
03-16-2003, 10:58 AM
look, my whole point was, if you can get the benefits without the side effects...why put yourself at risk for the side effects?

restless
03-16-2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
look, my whole point was, if you can get the benefits without the side effects...why put yourself at risk for the side effects?

But the effects I mentioned are a consequence of a high omega 3 intake, not of fish oils. So if you were eating enough fish or wild game/grass fed beef to get a high enough omega 3 intake you should experience the same "side effects" that you get from fish oils. Fish oils are safe, getting a few grams of combined EPA/DHA from them doesn't pose any risks that aren't far outweighted by the benefits.


So to the people who get enough healthy fats without supplements.. What foods are you eating?

Sardines, ocasionally walnuts. Omega 3 enriched eggs are also an option and vegetables have trace amounts in them, so unless you eat a ton of them a day don't relly on veggie intake for you EFA's needs. The other sources you mentioned are sources of omega 6, which I doubt you need any extra supplementation as virtually everyone gets way to much of those.

AJ_11
03-16-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Tru
So to the people who get enough healthy fats without supplements.. What foods are you eating?

Eggs, milk, nuts, peanut butter, vegetables? Any specific veggies?

To be exactley what are you looking for. Is your diet lacking in fat in general or in a certain kind. Nuts are full of healthy fats. SOme are better than others. Natural PB is a good source of mono. Fish is always an excellent choice like salmon, herring, sardines. Tuna oatmeal contains some good fats aswell. There are many foods that contain healthy fats. The reason it is a good idea to supplement with a high omega 3 supplement is because you end up getting too much o-6 in your diet and not enough o-3.

Ideally the two should been balanced.

Tru
03-16-2003, 11:50 AM
Right now, the only place I get a significant amount of fat is from Eggs, Milk, Peanut Butter, Cottage Cheese. Do you think that's good enough for healthy fats or do I need to supplement if I want to grow?


I don't really get many fats from anything else, diet is pretty clean.

restless
03-16-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Tru
Right now, the only place I get a significant amount of fat is from Eggs, Milk, Peanut Butter, Cottage Cheese. Do you think that's good enough for healthy fats or do I need to supplement if I want to grow?


I don't really get many fats from anything else, diet is pretty clean.

There's hardly any omega 3 in there.

AJ_11
03-16-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by restless


The hardly any omega 3 in there.

I agree, there is only a small amt of mono and the rest is saturated.

There is a difference between getting bigger and healthy lifestyle. If you want to get bigger than just eat more than you use for energy really no matter what it is. If you want to be healthy try to get as much nutrients as possible and eat more if you want to be big.

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-16-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
look, my whole point was, if you can get the benefits without the side effects...why put yourself at risk for the side effects?

Risk?

You really need to do some research. Fish oils offer a wealth of benefits.

MrWebb78
03-16-2003, 01:13 PM
(sigh)

i eat alot of fish anyways, i dont need to supplement with it

stand over there so maybe i can throw my point across

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-16-2003, 01:20 PM
Oily fish?

Why are you taking the risk of eating fish if fish oils have all those nasty things related to it?

And don't 'sigh' at me. It was you who said "oh what the hell this could actually be fun..."

MrWebb78
03-16-2003, 01:25 PM
dont tell me to dont sigh! (ok wheres the sarcasm button!)

and if youre telling me you think there is no difference between fish oil and the actual fish "fillet" you cook and eat then i have no reason to even continue trying to debate this

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-16-2003, 01:32 PM
Yeah, there is a difference. Cooking fish oils is not necessarily a good thing for the EPA/DHA content.

restless
03-16-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
dont tell me to dont sigh! (ok wheres the sarcasm button!)

and if youre telling me you think there is no difference between fish oil and the actual fish "fillet" you cook and eat then i have no reason to even continue trying to debate this

The main difference is that the fish "fillet" is contaminated with some methylmercury and the fish oil should be clear of it, if it's any good.

Tru
03-16-2003, 01:32 PM
I want to get bigger and leaner, i've heard omega 3's help gaining LBM and maintaining it. What are some food sources of Omega 3's, besides fish?

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-16-2003, 01:33 PM
And what sort of fish is it?

restless
03-16-2003, 01:36 PM
Grass fed beef, wild game meat, and besides the ones already mentioned, some plant sources can provide ALA that can be converted to EPA and to much lesser extent to DHA, it's far from optimal but still better than nothing. On a related note, this conversion will be more effective the less EPA/DHA there's on your diet.

MrWebb78
03-16-2003, 01:41 PM
usually king salmon, sometimes halibut, on rare occassions swordfish, canned tuna doesnt count. and no they are not "contaminated" with mercury, it takes an insane amount of mercury, and typically not from farm raised fish

restless
03-16-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
it takes an insane amount of mercury,

To do what?

MrWebb78
03-16-2003, 01:49 PM
to be considered "contaminated"

restless
03-16-2003, 02:09 PM
Ah.......Ok then. Swordfish is one of the fish with higher levels, along with shark and whale, but I guess that as long as you stay away from the "evil and expensive fish oil" there's nothing to worry about.

MrWebb78
03-16-2003, 02:41 PM
i know swordfish is high in mercury, one of the reasons i rarely have it. all fish have trace elements of it, but not near enough to do any damage, unless i was a pregnant woman.

and fish oil is cheap, but why waste money, besides sitting here debating all day whether or not its good for you, i think its safe to say that why not eat the fish and get the healhty fat, as well as the protein, and not waste money on fat oil.

restless
03-16-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by MrWebb78
i know swordfish is high in mercury, one of the reasons i rarely have it. all fish have trace elements of it, but not near enough to do any damage, unless i was a pregnant woman.



Yes, according to the FDA, which I don't trust for a second.


and fish oil is cheap, but why waste money, besides sitting here debating all day whether or not its good for you, i think its safe to say that why not eat the fish and get the healhty fat, as well as the protein, and not waste money on fat oil.

I avoid all fish but sardines for the afore mentioned reasons. Anyway, I think this discussion has gone were it could go. :)

MrWebb78
03-16-2003, 03:07 PM
agreed, and im sure the starter is regretting asking, maybe ill just stick to my journal from now on

*runs away*

WestyHeadbanger
03-16-2003, 07:54 PM
I take tonnes of flax oil everyday and it works awesome.

What it does I don't know, but bodybuilders all talk about it so it must be good.

Guys in white coats know nuzzing. *Schulz voice.

MrWebb78: Thank you for posting your opinion I have found good use for it as my sister is diabetic and takes Flax oil, i will tell her to watch her sugar level with it.

Its all good, stop bitching fellas.

WestyHeadbanger
03-16-2003, 07:57 PM
As for mercury.

mmmmmmm mercury. *drools*

noraa
03-17-2003, 03:58 PM
Okay, gotta throw my oar in

Blood thinning, well its not really thinning but a reduced level of clotting. It happens, but depends on dosage and individuals. The inuit have a longer clotting time, but most research shows little effect of normal range of fish oil dosages.

LDL - Generally this can be raised with large doses of ALA/EPA/DHA but predominantly in people with hypercholesterolaemia to start with. And also large doses can decrease HDL which is a bad combination. Although some research shows no real effect on normal people.

Safety - even with all the mercury scaremongering amongst a number of sites around the web 'cough mercola cough', fish and fish oils offer numerous health benifits with little to no side effects. Especially for primary or secondary prevention of CVD.
They offer benifits for inflammatory diseases like rhematoid arthritis, and others. (altho it doesnt seem a good method of IL6 reduction and CRP reduction, but it still reduces incidence of CVD)

Diabetics - well it depends on the type of diabetes. Most doctors would not want their type I patients using something that may mess with their regular insulin. Even if it decreases the need for said insulin, for some people it may mess it up. In terms of type two, its ok as long as they maintain glycemic control.

heres an interesting article on EFAs and Human health, its a free full text article from the american journal of clinical nutrition
Right here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10479232&dopt=Abstract)

restless
03-17-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by noraa

Safety - even with all the mercury scaremongering amongst a number of sites around the web 'cough mercola cough',

Man, you better take care of that cough, I don't like the sound of it....:D

Ironman8
03-17-2003, 05:15 PM
:withstupi :D

AJ_11
03-17-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Ironman8
:withstupi :D

lol, that didn't work in your favor now did.

mustydusty
10-25-2011, 01:10 AM
I take neither flaxseed or fish oil. Nothing against them, I'm sure they work for other people. I get my omega-3s from krill oil

Jameyab
11-16-2011, 11:16 PM
Fish oil is important for our daily vitamins and supplements, am already eating good quantity of fish oil, However good informative thread.Thanks.