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EdgeCrusher
03-15-2003, 11:50 PM
As I'm cutting, I am doing a lot of cardio. I do 15 minutes on the stairmaster, 5-10 on the other kind of stairmaster (don't know the name but it works my calves a lot more but is a lot harder). 10 minutes on the bike. and 30 minutes on the elliptical.

That's about 1 hour if I'm dedicated. 30 minutes (no elliptical) if I am lazy.

The weight is coming off pretty well. I drink my shakes, eat pretty well, and do weight training every other day (MWF).

What's your opinion on my cardio? Not enough? Too much?

Calipso
03-16-2003, 07:29 AM
I'd keep doing what your doing. Lose the vegan style though. No offense I've tried that and it sucks. Meats help me more with my total protein intake (Via Steak, Tuna, etc) instead of downing Soy Protein. Otherwise I like how much cardio you do. I'm gonna be doing to dedicating 2 days a week to cardio just to help shed extra body fat.

-Calipso

Loseit
03-16-2003, 07:35 AM
I thought you should't do more then 30 minutes everday because you'll start cutting too much muscle?

Ironman8
03-16-2003, 09:40 AM
Ya, alot of cardio does eat away at your muscles.

aka23
03-16-2003, 11:48 AM
Your body burns a combination of fat, carbs, and protein all day long. Usually the contribution from protein or muscle protein is insignificant. When I hear about people burning muscle protein, it is usually related to low calorie diets. You can avoild this type of muscle loss by eating only a small bit below your maintenance level of calories and doing exercises (both weights and cardio). The body is resistant to breaking down muscles for energy when they are being used in weights/cardio.

The fraction of muscle burned during cardio is usually insignificant. It becomes more significant when muscle glycogen levels are lower. This includes doing extended cardio on low calorie diets or low carb diets, doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach, doing cardio immediately after weights when glyogen levels are low, and doing cardio that burns a lot of glycogen such as high intensity for long durations. Differnt authorities set different limits on how much and what type of cardio to do to minimize this. Some bodybuilding sites say limiting it to 20,30,40, or 50 minutes. Some more general sites go as high as 90 minutes. Unfortunately very few have any studies to back up their advice. The authorities that I trust most recommend about 30-60 minutes which is what I usually recommend to people trying to lose fat. For example the American College of Sports Medicine recommends 20-60 minutes of work in the target heart range 3-5 times per week.

Your specific routine does not list enough information to get a good gage of whether it is too much. How many days per week do you do cardio? What fraction of your max heart rate are you at during the exercises? Are you doing these on the same day that you do weights, immeditely after weights?

I think that doing your cardio schedule every day of the week would be overtraining and may cause muscle loss. You could minimize this type of overtraining by doing different types of cardio on different days of the week. For example you might do the full one hour one day, HIIT training one day, skipping the eliptical one day, only doing the eliptical one day, etc. On days when you do the longest duration, the intensity should be lower. On days when you do shorter durations, the intensity should be higher.

AJ_11
03-16-2003, 12:11 PM
Aka23,

I admire your knowledge from your posts but think that you are a little biased against low carb diets. Now I have read most of your post and almost all of them go into some detail that if muscle glycogen levels are low and carb depleted then you will lose all your muscle. High fat diets tend to be muscle sparring from what I have read. Can you show me some studies that prove that you need carbs for energy in particular. Also with CKD, there is the weekend Carb Up which refill glycogen levels. Diets like the Atkins plan is not made for BB.

Also to my experience HIIT cardio seems to be the best as far fatloss.

AJ_11
03-16-2003, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Loseit
I thought you should't do more then 30 minutes everday because you'll start cutting too much muscle?

Depends at what intensity. Low intensity it doesn't matter. Higher intensity and HIIT shouldn't be done IMO of more than 20min.

aka23
03-16-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Aka23,

I admire your knowledge from your posts but think that you are a little biased against low carb diets. Now I have read most of your post and almost all of them go into some detail that if muscle glycogen levels are low and carb depleted then you will lose all your muscle.

I do not intend to suggest that any of the things I listed in my post would cause you to "lose all your muscle." They would only increase the fraction of protein being used for energy. If muscle glycogen is low when doing cardio, the body is more likely to increase use of alternative sources of energy. This includes both fat and protein (including muscle protein).


Originally posted by AJ_11
Can you show me some studies that prove that you need carbs for energy in particular.

Carbs and fats are the primary source of your energy. Protein is not usually a major contributor except for special cases, such as starvation or diets that provide little carb. Carbs can be used as glycogen stored in the muscle cell or glucose circulating in the blood. Fats can be used as fat stored in the muscle cell or fatty acids circulating in the blood. Phosphocreatine may also contribute during short bursts (six seconds or less) of near maximal work. During anaerobic activity nearly all the fuel is carbs (fat cannot fuel anaerobic activities). Weightlifting is usually considered an anaerobic activity, in which the primary fuel is carbs (glycogen).

Do you mean you want to see studies indicating that you cannot get all of your energy from fats and protein? I supose it would be theoretically possible to get all energy from fats and protein since the body can covert protein into glucose. However doing so, would severely limit both cardio and weightlifting training. If you are interested, I will find studies to back up these claims.

EdgeCrusher
03-16-2003, 02:16 PM
Calipso - I'd give it up in a heartbeat if I wasn't morally opposed to it. I know it's a lot better for my bodybuilding/cutting efforts to eat meat/dairy, but I can't.

AKA - I do cardio 7 days a week. Um, I am 5'10.5", 210 lbs, and I'm a 19 year old male. I generally keep my heart rate around 160-170 BPM. I do weights on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday so yes, I do weights on the same day.

also, i don't go much below maintainance, and i don't think im losing much muscle right now.

AJ_11
03-16-2003, 02:35 PM
Just kinda wondering becasue I know that without the presence of carbs the body does use other sources for energy such as fats and protein. Fat is though prefered and used as energy through ketosis. Protein can be converted into into energy, also but if you have enough fat to be used as energy then it will then become protein sparring.

As far as muscle glycogen levels are concerned, CHO loads come into effect here. Refilling both the liver and muscle and since the body knows that it only recieves these Carbs every so often it stores it in the liver and muscle instead being used as fat. That is why CKD is preffered over an Atkins type diet which does not allow these refeeds.

I was just wondering to see some studies where protein was prefered over fats even during anaerobic excercise. The reason being is that I currently to weight training 3X a week, HIIT Cardio 2X for 20min, and sometimes on a slow week I throw in 30min of light intensity cardio. Thus far I haven't noticed any muscle lost, strength is either increasing or staying the same, and averaging 2K cals a day almost 800cals under maintence.

My biggest fear is losing muscle that I spent so long in building but I my goals of reaching my ideal BF% conqueurs all. That is why I am kinda questioning the fact that muscle mass is decreased due to a low cal/ carb diet.

AJ_11
03-16-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by EdgeCrusher
Calipso - I'd give it up in a heartbeat if I wasn't morally opposed to it. I know it's a lot better for my bodybuilding/cutting efforts to eat meat/dairy, but I can't.

AKA - I do cardio 7 days a week. Um, I am 5'10.5", 210 lbs, and I'm a 19 year old male. I generally keep my heart rate around 160-170 BPM. I do weights on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday so yes, I do weights on the same day.

also, i don't go much below maintainance, and i don't think im losing much muscle right now.

I think that you should at least take one day off. What is your bf% now. Also don't combine the two. I know I sometimes overdo it but you think that is a bit too much.

My suggestion.
3 days weights
2 HIIT cardio
1 light/moderate.

aka23
03-16-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11
I was just wondering to see some studies where protein was prefered over fats even during anaerobic excercise.
...
I am kinda questioning the fact that muscle mass is decreased due to a low cal/ carb diet.

It is my understanding that anaerobic exercise does not use fat as fuel (excluding certain unusual conditions). The page at http://www.utc.edu/~heco135/Metabolism.html describes the chemical equations involved in aneroboic glycolisis. It states, "Anaerobic metabolism relies exclusively on carbohydrate as an energy source."

In aerobic exercise, both fat and protein may be used as fuel, but fat contributes a greater portion of energy than protein. Protein is used, but fat usually makes up a greater contribution to total energy. I found this statement in The Lore of Runnig by Tim Noakes, MD.

"Protein is only used for energy under extreme conditions such as starvation or very prolonged exercise, particularly if carbohydrate is depleted. Even then its contribution only reaches 10% of total energy production. In these conditions it provides the liver with fuels from which it can produce glucose when the liver glycogen stores are low." This statement is backed up by the study "Effect of initial muscle glycogen levels on protein catabolism during exercise" by Lemon and & Mullen, 1980.

The above statements indicate that the percentage of energy from protein increases when carbohydrate is depleted and glycogen stores are low. These conditions are associated with a low calorie/carbohydrate intake, as well as the other things I listed in my post.

teeblair30
03-16-2003, 04:37 PM
Doing alot of cardio u will lose some muscle with fat.. But in some cases its a building block..For example I started in january at 5.6 205 lbs.. my max bench was 185.. Now I am 180lbs but my max bench is 160... I might not be as strong as I was before but i definatly look better.. This is my plan.. I do weights 2 times aweek.. no sets..just grab a few dumbells and go.. Do some benching.. nothing strenuous.... ATleast 4 days a week I play basketball, and 5 days a week I hit the treadmill for atleast 3 to 4 miles between the speeds of 5.0 and sprinting at 9.0.. MY plan is that I will keep this up until i hit 155/160 and then I will hit the weights.. Eet alot, and hit the weights with incredible intensity..So in short term I will lose muscle and fat..but in the long run I will gain major amounts of muscle and limit my fats..

EdgeCrusher
03-16-2003, 05:25 PM
I think my BF% is about 18-20%. Which sucks. Hence, Cardio.