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Silverback
03-19-2003, 11:24 AM
Does anyone have any information on this vital nutrition time? i.e. in terms of carbs and protein per pound of bodyweight etc...

Ive always thought that pre-workout carbs were useless and were a contributor to fat-production, now i hear the opposite, that it can help the the prevention of catabolism.

Then there is the amount post workout, ive always had something like gatorade, now im being told that i need about 100g of carbs post workout. Somebody help clear it up for everyone :)

NO2
03-19-2003, 11:38 AM
we all know that its good to feed your muscles
1g of protien per pound is right

carbs are good before workout
it give you some energy and you burn the fat when your lifting

its good to have a protien shake when your done your workout...the carbs are incl in the shake

to get big faster have a protien shake during your workout - arnold-

well i hope i helped a bit....

im not a pro but i read from them.. :)

Silverback
03-19-2003, 11:43 AM
Hmm alright i appreciate your advice, but ive got a good knowledge on nutrition, what i was really wanting was specific amounts in terms of grams.

B-R

aka23
03-19-2003, 12:27 PM
Does anyone have any information on this vital nutrition time? i.e. in terms of carbs and protein per pound of bodyweight etc...
...
Then there is the amount post workout, ive always had something like gatorade, now im being told that i need about 100g of carbs post workout. Somebody help clear it up for everyon

According to Lyle Mcdonald,
"Although guidelines are sparse, typical recommendations for post-workout are 1-1.5 g/kg (.45-.7g/lb) of carbs and about 1/3rd as much protein."

Brian Haycock suggests a lower amount is okay when the carbs are split into two postworkout meals:
"It is recommended that at least 0.7 - 1.0 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram body weight be consumed immediately after exercise and then again 1-2 hours later. "

I think the optimum amount would depend on workout intensity and duration. I imagine that more carbs would be needed as inensity and duration increase. I also suspect that getting the optimal protein/carb ratio is not going to make a huge difference so long as adequate amounts of nutrients are consumed. Note that water is important in the postworkout meal as well.



Ive always thought that pre-workout carbs were useless and were a contributor to fat-production, now i hear the opposite, that it can help the the prevention of catabolism.

I have never heard that preworkout carbs were useless. Perhaps the idea is that you burn more fats if you do not eat carbs before the workout. This might be a consideration if the meal was very close (under 2 hours) to a cardio session. However, I still think preworkout carbs would benefit. This idea does not make sense to me for an anaerobic workout like weightlifting in which your body is using glycogen as its primary fuel, not fats. Consuming carbs in your preworkout meal helps increase performance, decrease fatigue, and prevent catabolism.

Silverback
03-19-2003, 12:37 PM
Great post aka, that is perfect, i am very happy now and could kiss you, j/k :)

So for you what would you take pre-workout?

B-R

Saint Patrick
03-19-2003, 01:39 PM
It also depends if you're bulking or cutting.

bradley
03-19-2003, 01:48 PM
Body brought this thread up a few days ago and it brings up some good points.:)

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7331&perpage=25&highlight=GI&pagenumber=3

Silverback
03-19-2003, 02:08 PM
cheers for the link brad, i should of just run a search in the first place :)

aka23
03-19-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Big-Ron
Great post aka, that is perfect, ...

So for you what would you take pre-workout?

The common recommondation is a small meal containing both carbs and protein 1-2 hours before your workout. This meal should be relatively easy to digest (does not cause intestinal distress). I think the preworkout nutrition is less important than postworkout nutrition.

I think a meal during the workout is not necessary in the typical 45 minute lifiting session, especially when the preworkout meal is consumed relatively close to the lifting session. If the workout is very long and intense, such as a cardio/weight session lasting 90 minutes, then it a during workout easy to digest drink/food might be beneficial.

For postworkout, I like Lyle Mcdonald's 1-1.5 g/kg (.45-.7g/lb) of carbs and about 1/3rd as much protein. However, I do not think the ratios are critical so long as there is adequate quantities of both nutrients. Some experts recommend different ratios. After more intense or longer sessions (often cardio), I think more carbs are necessary.

Experts commonly recommend having the meal as soon as possible after the workout and using high GI carbs to quickly replenish glycogen reserves. I think the GI of the carbs is less important than the total quantity. In the study "Nutrition for post-exercise recovery," Burke found no difference between different types of carbohydrates eaten post exercise and the rate of glycogen replenishment when there were sufficient amounts of carbs. I would suggest having both simple and complex carbs to quickly provide energy and avoid an insulin spike.

bradley
03-19-2003, 04:32 PM
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=b9a1812601b35a10&rnum=5

You might find this helpful B-R.

The_Chicken_Daddy
03-19-2003, 05:34 PM
Bradley, that is nearly ten years old.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but jesus man, you could have pulled up a more up to date thread!

Ironman8
03-19-2003, 06:02 PM
I aka said, try to have something easy to digest. I recommend something with little fats and oils(longer to digest), so try steamed vegetables. Works for me.

Shankerr
03-19-2003, 09:00 PM
I love cut-and-paste jockeys

bradley
03-20-2003, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Bradley, that is nearly ten years old.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but jesus man, you could have pulled up a more up to date thread!

Yeah I know it is old but the information still holds true and the post was straight to the point.:)

bradley
03-20-2003, 03:32 AM
Experts commonly recommend having the meal as soon as possible after the workout and using high GI carbs to quickly replenish glycogen reserves. I think the GI of the carbs is less important than the total quantity. In the study "Nutrition for post-exercise recovery," Burke found no difference between different types of carbohydrates eaten post exercise and the rate of glycogen replenishment when there were sufficient amounts of carbs. I would suggest having both simple and complex carbs to quickly provide energy and avoid an insulin spike.

Wouldn't the complex carbs slow down digestion and therefor slow the speed at which glycogen was replenished? Do you thing high GI postworkout and then approx. 90 minutes later have another meal that included low GI carbs would be better? I have was under the impression that an insulin spike postworkout was beneficial.

Ironman8
03-20-2003, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by bradley
Wouldn't the complex carbs slow down digestion and therefor slow the speed at which glycogen was replenished?

I thought your muscles are more open to any carbs after workouts? So that means most your glycogen are replenished on the spot, or not?

aka23
03-20-2003, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by bradley
Wouldn't the complex carbs slow down digestion and therefor slow the speed at which glycogen was replenished? Do you thing high GI postworkout and then approx. 90 minutes later have another meal that included low GI carbs would be better? I have was under the impression that an insulin spike postworkout was beneficial.

The idea of the study was that the rate-limiting step in glycogen replenishment after exercise was not the speed at which blood sugar levels rise. Suppose that the muscles/liver could replenish gylcogen at rate x. A low glycemic index carb might raise blood sugar at rate equivalent to 10x, a high GI might at 100x. Both carbs would replenish overall gylcogen at about the same rate because they would be limited by the rate x that the muscles/liver could replenish gylogen, not the 10x and 100x rates at which the carbs could put sugar in the blood. However, if there were not enough carbs available, then the muscle/liver would stop replenishing glycogen early, which could hinder recovery. Note that I have no idea what the actual ratios are and chose powers of 10 in the example for simplicity.

I think an insulin spike is better after a workout than after almost any other meal. However, there still could be negative consequences for some. Repeated spikes may increase insulin resistance, etc. Low GI complex carbohydrates decrease the downward slope of spikes created by simple sugars and help insure that carbs will be available for longer periods. I think high GI carbs should also be included since they help start the gylcogen recovery sooner, help utilize protein, help quickly get glucose to the blood, and offer some benefit over low GI carbs in terms of overall glycogen replenishment. This is just my opinion. From what I have read, I gather that the standard recommendation is high GI carbs.

I think that your idea of high GI, then low GI 90 minutes later would be fine. Splitting the meal into two parts reduces the negative effects of the spike and insures carbs will be available after the spike. However, I also think it would not be a huge improvement over just eating a food with simple and complex carbs after the workout, such as cold cereal. I think that the two most important things are to eat quickly after the workout and to include an adaquate amount of carbs.

aka23
03-20-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Ironman8
I thought your muscles are more open to any carbs after workouts? So that means most your glycogen are replenished on the spot, or not?

There is a period following a workout in which muscles have increased glyogen storage/replinishment. However, this replinishment often takes hours to complete.

bradley
03-20-2003, 02:09 PM
I think an insulin spike is better after a workout than after almost any other meal. However, there still could be negative consequences for some. Repeated spikes may increase insulin resistance, etc. Low GI complex carbohydrates decrease the downward slope of spikes created by simple sugars and help insure that carbs will be available for longer periods. I think high GI carbs should also be included since they help start the gylcogen recovery sooner, help utilize protein, help quickly get glucose to the blood, and offer some benefit over low GI carbs in terms of overall glycogen replenishment. This is just my opinion. From what I have read, I gather that the standard recommendation is high GI carbs.


I agree with what you are saying and that would be the reason that I suggested to eat a whole food meal after consumption of the high GI carbs postworkout. This would help balance out blood sugar levels after the insulin spike. I guess half dextrose half malto would be a good combo for a postworkout shake.

bradley
03-20-2003, 04:29 PM
3. Considering the generally slow rate of digestion of protein and subsequent release of amino acids into the bloodstream (which may range from 1 hour for relatively 'fast' proteins like whey to much longer for 'slow' proteins), putting protein into the pre-workout meal (at the 1.5-2 hour before workout time point) makes perfect logical sense, because those aminos will become available to the muscles at or near the
end of the workout (re-read point 1). Yeah, I know, nice run-on sentence.

By the same token, protein should also be put into the post-workout meal. Even though the aminos won't be immediately available (see point 3 above if you've already forgotten what I said), they will provide another batch of aminos to support protein synthesis an hour or two after the workout ends. At which time you'll be eating your next meal, etc. As well, the combination of protein + carbs post-training has been
shown to give a better hormonal response than carbs alone, which might promote better anabolism.

Now, none of this is to say that carbs in the pre- or post-workout meal aren't equally important for the reasons that you've brough up (maintaining blood glucose levels and post-workout glycogen
resynthesis). They are. Your mistake is in thinking that protein isn't important based on some pretty weak logic (something about protein requirements being low right after training or some such other idiocy), and that carbs are super-important by extension. BOTH are important. Period.

With that said, here's what I'd personally have someone do:
1. pre-workout (1-2 hours before the workout): consume a balanced meal
of carbs, protein and even some fat. The amounts of each would depend
on a host of factors including what kind of diet someone was on (if they
were restricting carbs/calories for some reason, I'd put more carbs into
the pre-workout meal, etc), as well as how close to the workout the meal
came. A pre-workout meal 1 hour before the workout will be a lot
smaller than one 2+ hours before to avoid digestive problems (this was
about the only thing you got right in this thread regarding protein:
excessive protein taken too close to a workout *may* cause stomach
upset. Your mistake was then concluding that protein shouldn't be put
in the pre-workout meal at all).

2. During the workout: sip on a low-concentration (5-7% providing 30-60
grams carbs over an hour period) carb drink during the workout. One
abstract (to my knowledge it was never published as a full study) showed
decreased levels of cortisol with this strategy. And while research
hasn't borne out that it will increase performance during resistance
training, some anecdotal evidence has. Probably placebo but that's ok too.

3. Post workout: a liquid meal containing 1-1.5 g/kg of carbs (mostly
glucose/glucose polymers but also some fructose to refill liver
glycogen) along with 1/3rd as much protein (i.e. if you get 100 grams
carbs, you get 30 grams protein).

4. 2 hours later: eat a normal meal of carbs, protein and fat. Then go
to normal eating schedule.

This is a little long but was posted by Lyle McDonald. Thought this might shed some more light on your question B-R.

complete thread
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=pre-workout+meal+group:misc.*&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3A33F3C5.F1B44C1F%40onr.com&rnum=6