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Ironman8
04-01-2003, 06:00 PM
My weekly caloric intake is gonna be around 2000. Should I still have cheatdays on the weekend? I heard this will kick up my metabolism, but will it also hinder the results. Thanks in advance.

heathj
04-01-2003, 06:19 PM
If you feel it will be necessary so you don't cheat during the week, but for the best results, I'd say stay as strict as possible. A cheat day once per week won't be bad though.

Scythian_Blade
04-01-2003, 06:45 PM
Structure it as a timed refeed. Not as a cheat day. Your terminology is off =D

Severed Ties
04-01-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by heathj
A cheat day once per week won't be bad though.


You've never seen one of my cheat days.:evillaugh


ST

heathj
04-01-2003, 09:24 PM
Haha, ok, a cheat day for ST is allowed once per year.

Shao-LiN
04-01-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Ironman8
My weekly caloric intake is gonna be around 2000. Should I still have cheatdays on the weekend? I heard this will kick up my metabolism, but will it also hinder the results. Thanks in advance.

I'm sure you mean your daily caloric intake and not weekly, hehe. Anyway, if you feel you need it to keep you sane, then go for it. If you can stand doing without one, then don't have one. It's up to you.

EdgeCrusher
04-01-2003, 11:09 PM
Yeah, if you lose weight, keep doing it.

steveo
04-02-2003, 12:08 AM
Cheats days are good. Depend how serious you are and how limited in time. If I'm cutting just to loose some extra fat I would cheat if I were preparing for a show I would only cheat once a month if I had to, but if I was still saine I wouldn't.

ectx
04-02-2003, 01:30 AM
I'd say have a cheat day every other week. Another possibility is to have a cheat meal or two on the weekends. I sometimes do that. Actually I just started a cut, and have 2 cheat meals on Sunday of odd weeks and 1 cheat day on Sunday of even weeks. What's worked best for me in the past has been every two weeks though. I honestly don't think it's a bad Idea to keep one in there, perhaps just limit it like I suggested. It would probably have a beneficial effect on your leptin levels and get things kicking for you.

Ironman8
04-02-2003, 07:36 AM
Cool. Thanks for the response guys!

gino
04-02-2003, 10:17 AM
I always incorporate one cheat day each week while cutting. I think they are beneficial on many different levels.

BennettBoy
04-02-2003, 10:24 AM
Even preparing for a show I have a cheat meal (not day) 1-2 times a week. Helps keep me sane.

Severed Ties
04-03-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by heathj
Haha, ok, a cheat day for ST is allowed once per year.


guess we shouldn't talk about those two sleeves of oreo's I ate before bed last saturday...or the saturday before....or even the one before.....and that was just a "light" snack....I hate sleeping on a full stomach.:evillaugh


ST

heathj
04-03-2003, 07:47 PM
fatty. oreos do sound good though. oreos and milk, damn, haven't had those in forever!

Severed Ties
04-03-2003, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by heathj
fatty

Actually I'm dieting but my experiments with macro manipulation are far exceeding my expectations.

carolinagirl
04-03-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties


Actually I'm dieting but my experiments with macro manipulation are far exceeding my expectations.

Hmmm. ST, you interest me.


Care to elaborate?

Severed Ties
04-03-2003, 09:30 PM
Sure carolinegirl, as I've said in the past calories in do NOT equal calories out. I know this shatters people's fragile little world but until they get over this concept they will never maximize their bodies potential.

Currently I'm burning stored bodyfat at a much faster rate than expected. My scale weight was dropping far to fast for my liking as actual "weight loss" during a diet is something I try to minimize. To compensate for this and help keep proper leptin levels and throid production I added a refeed day...which later due to some unexpected results turned into a cheat like hell day.


ST

carolinagirl
04-03-2003, 09:32 PM
What kind of macro breakdowns are you doing? (And what's your refeed schedule? 1/week? Your bf isn't that high, is it?)

Severed Ties
04-03-2003, 09:51 PM
My overall macro breakdowns are 40/25/35 pro/carb/fat but these numbers are manipulated into different ratio's thoughout the day as you must eat to properly manipulate insulin levels and glycogen stores to meet your activity level.

My refeed is 1/week....every saturday. If I had to estimate my average caloric intake for the day I'd say between 5-6K but I've gone as high as 8K. Gotta keep trying things to keep learning.

I started dieting around 15%...my bodyfat I'm guessing is around 10% based on the amount of definition I have compared to what 10% look like on me in the past. It's hard to say exactly as more LBM will make you look leaner....but I can get back into my 29"w jeans....at my absolute leanest I can get into a boys size 16 if they are very baggy.


ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-03-2003, 09:56 PM
ST,

As cgirl would say, you're interesting me strangely.

So when you say altering the macros throughout the day, you're along the lines of:

Meal 1: 40/30/30 p/f/c

Meal 2: 25/25/50 p/f/c

Meal 3: 50/30/20 p/f/c

etc?

I obviously yanked those numbers out of the air, but is this what you speak of?

I'm verging on attempting to pick your brain a little.

carolinagirl
04-03-2003, 10:03 PM
ST - your plan sounds very similar to what I'm doing. I'm really interested in manipulating the endocrine responses to food as well.

For you to only need 1 refeed a week at 10% is pretty darn good - your setpoint must be fairly low then. I think I must be getting below my setpoint right now, because I'm needing them about every 4 days, and I'm at about 20%.


I'd love to hear more details about how you monkey with your ratios to manipulate insulin throughout the day. (I would assume that insulin responses would be targeted around workouts and potentially in M1, and the rest of the day would be kept to a minimum?)

Also, what's your position on the pre/post workout nutrition debate? Lately I've been leaning towards the pre- and during-workout shake with the high GI carbs and rapidly assimilated proteins, then doing low-GI and slow proteins for post-workout. But I'm not absolutely 100% convinced that this is ideal.

(I'm a little of a nutrition geek - sorry!)

Isaac Wilkins
04-03-2003, 10:14 PM
*rubs hands together*

Now this is getting good.

My take on pre/post workout is this: I try to take a shake (fast protein and high GI carbs) pre-workout, and post-workout.

I like this for several reasons:

-I believe this is most efficient as far as repair/replenishment: Nutrients are available immediately upon request.

-Because of the immediate nutrient supplies, one takes best advantage of the test spike that intense training generates.

-It allows me to enjoy high GI carbs twice per day, and helps get in a little more protein (I'm shooting for like 350 grams here, folks).

Here's a question that you should have the answer to: Does repair of muscles begin IMMEDIATELY upon reaction to stimulus? I realize that it will be retarded by further exercise, but does the body start repairing once the first damage is done (set one or two to failure, perhaps), or is the whole repair process stalled by the trauma until after the workout is completed and stress is removed? If this is the case, my point #2 is false.

Severed Ties
04-03-2003, 10:31 PM
Something like that, I'm like a sponge for info...so over the years I've read so many different things about when your body needs different nutrient and what will happen to them inside the body given different scenario's.

I ran into a problem this year as I out grew my old diet...literally...what had worked in the past will simply no longer work at my size. So unless I'm willing to shrink to a previous size or use a chemical solution I had to rethink my stratagy. I did not like either choice so I went back to the drawing board.

I few year ago I saw a problem with the idea of a daily caloric intake...because simply put their is no such thing to you body. Your body needs fuel for activity and about a billion processes we are not even aware it's preforming. However I needed some kind of target to plan my meals around so I decided to work with a total weekly caloric intake and deficet. This was a step in the right direction but it allowed for zero cheating, which created other problems. What I messed up on was targeting my meal on any caloric intake rather than an activity level.

So rather than go bigger I should have gone smaller with time frames. If I need to eat for an activity level I can't think in terms of days but rather in terms of hours. If I know from research what my body will do with different nutrients logically it makes the most sense to eat the optimal nutrients for what I will be doing until my next meal.


ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-03-2003, 10:36 PM
VERY interesting, and very plausible.

So your intake varies upon activity level.

How do you account for different gastric emptying/digestion and metabolizing times? Is this just another variable to factor in for meal selection?

Severed Ties
04-03-2003, 10:56 PM
Carolinagirl my bodies set point or comfort point is around 17% that is the exact bodyfat I will hang around if I don't do regular cardio and watch my diet. I've had 3 injuries in the past from contracting jobs or grappling so each time I was forced to take a 2 month layoff...each time I found myself back at the 17% range or worse. I'm very much an endomorph so I store fat easily which is what has made my results so suprising. I also keep track of my own hormonal ranges so I know my t-3 levels could be better which doesn't help trying to remain lean.



Right now I advocate post workout nutrition. I do use a pre-workout meal but I'm still working on what macronutrients combinations are optimal here.


Borris

I think HIT is an excellent training style as one set is all you need if you can get the job done. However I've come to be a firm believer that the majority of people do not posses the both physical and mental ability (pain threshold, CNS recruitment..ect) to truely get the job done in one set. The body has an incredible ability to work far beyond what the brain will try to allow it and I've only seen very few people who can achieve near total physical failure from one set.

That said I am a firm believer in intensity above all. I can only train to complete physical failure for brief periods of time because of joint pain so I train with volume for most the year. You will find very few sets in my routine that do not include something to carry me a bit past mental failure....not physical. I usually start with forced reps, then go to drop sets, finished with super or giant sets. I do not in any way believe a body part can begin to recover no matter what macronutrients are available if you are hammering that part away with such successive sets. The exact point in which anabolism exceeds catabolism can take anywhere from 24 hours to as little as 30 minutes from what I've seen tested.

I believe this is what has made insulin so popular in bodybuilding because this recovery time can be cut even further using exogeneous fast acting insulin.


ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-03-2003, 11:08 PM
ST,

I'm endomorphic, like you, so you've just made me even more interested.

I think you misunderstood my question slightly, but you ended up answering it.

What I meant was does the body start repairing immediately, so within the first few minutes of working out, when the initial damage happens. Even following HIT, what I questioned was as follows:

Warmups

Flat DB Bench Press to failure 1x10.5 (damage occurs, repair begins? Catabolism begins)

Seated DB Militaries to failure 1x8.5 (more damage, repair continues? Catabolism continues)

Lateral Raise drop set 50x10.5, 40x8.5, 30x8.5, 20x9.5 (etc)


However, you answered that in your statement on anabolism overtaking catabolism.

Therefore, post-workout nutrition is integral in speeding anabolism, while a post-workout anti-oxident cocktail (C, E, B-complex, etc) is to hamper catabolism. It's simply (ha ha, I know) a matter of making the changeover occur as fast as possible.

Pre-workout nutrition would do nothing more than give anabolism a head start?

The workout-induced testosterone spike is generally ineffectual, other than perhaps giving anabolism another little push?

AJ_11
04-03-2003, 11:19 PM
Very interesting thread. I have kinda been playing around with the same idea but in my own way. My Calories are Highest after training. I still am working on the idea diet for myself and I agree to severed about listening to your body.

Question for Carolinagirl: You said that taking High GI pre and during then low after training hoe is this not panning out for you, I was thinking about trying the same deal but will wait for a response.

Carbs for me are based on training and consist of both High During/ immediatly after and then Low GI in meal 2 an hour later.

The rest of the day i am doing a keto diet. So far what I can tell is that I have lost some BF while keeping weightloss minimal.

I too have rater large refeeds coming maing from Carbs keeping protein moderate and fat minimal. Although sometimes i got out of hand it really kept me on track the rest of the week.

I am really interested in hearing some more from Severed maybe on the specific on "based on activity" theory that you have.

Ironman8
04-04-2003, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
as I've said in the past calories in do NOT equal calories out.

ST, does this mean you don't need to cut cals to lose BF%? I mean, if your workout is vigerous enough (i.e 40 min. cardio, 2 hour lifting, 3 days a week).

carolinagirl
04-04-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Question for Carolinagirl: You said that taking High GI pre and during then low after training hoe is this not panning out for you, I was thinking about trying the same deal but will wait for a response.

It's not that it's not panning out for me - it's more that I haven't tried it consistently enough to know whether it makes a difference. One of these days I will, though.

I meant that the jury is still out for me on the theory of it. (I think lots of the guys on anabolic minds are into this if you want to read more about it - and Timbo from bb.com is, too, if I recall.)

the doc
04-04-2003, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Ironman8


ST, does this mean you don't need to cut cals to lose BF%? I mean, if your workout is vigerous enough (i.e 40 min. cardio, 2 hour lifting, 3 days a week).
not st but here are my thoughts

i believe that it is possible. you would need to experiment a great deal, which is what st seems to be doing.

ST i am very interested in this HIT idea. Whenever i have been dieting, recovery seems my main problem, and using a HIT approach would seem to be ideal by allowing maximal recovery without unneed stress (by unnescessary lifting)

bigkevin20
04-04-2003, 09:20 AM
I am going to ruin my diet for 1 day. I hope it will not mess me up. I know I should not but I dont care I have not got drunk in months. I was envited to my freinds house to drink beer all day long with him and his college buddies. I said I will show up.

AJ_11
04-04-2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by carolinagirl


It's not that it's not panning out for me - it's more that I haven't tried it consistently enough to know whether it makes a difference. One of these days I will, though.

I meant that the jury is still out for me on the theory of it. (I think lots of the guys on anabolic minds are into this if you want to read more about it - and Timbo from bb.com is, too, if I recall.)

I am thinking about trying it. I may try it today. It will actaully be easier for me as far as timing.

So during workout malto/dextrose whey drink (50g/25g)
10-15 post workout oatmeal/ cottage chesse (50/35)

I will tell you how it goes.

When I was doing the NHE diet. I would have carb up nights. And in a span of 2-4 I would take in 75% cals of the day and roughly 2-500 grams of carbs. Although weight went up the next day I seem to have lost it 2-3 days in. But there were no DOMS the days after.

Also I think that everybody body is each own and really you must do what works for yourself. You can follow guidelines but it is how you body responds to you training/ diet/ lifestyle.

CBates
04-04-2003, 11:22 AM
ST, I'm curious as to what your macros look like on your refeeds? Do you keep them the same and just up the calories? Use mostly carbs (if so does it matter if they're starchy or sugary)? Just eat whatever you want to that day?

Severed Ties
04-05-2003, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Borris
ST,

I'm endomorphic, like you, so you've just made me even more interested.

I think you misunderstood my question slightly, but you ended up answering it.

What I meant was does the body start repairing immediately, so within the first few minutes of working out, when the initial damage happens. Even following HIT, what I questioned was as follows:

Warmups

Flat DB Bench Press to failure 1x10.5 (damage occurs, repair begins? Catabolism begins)

Seated DB Militaries to failure 1x8.5 (more damage, repair continues? Catabolism continues)

Lateral Raise drop set 50x10.5, 40x8.5, 30x8.5, 20x9.5 (etc)


However, you answered that in your statement on anabolism overtaking catabolism.

Therefore, post-workout nutrition is integral in speeding anabolism, while a post-workout anti-oxident cocktail (C, E, B-complex, etc) is to hamper catabolism. It's simply (ha ha, I know) a matter of making the changeover occur as fast as possible.

Pre-workout nutrition would do nothing more than give anabolism a head start?

The workout-induced testosterone spike is generally ineffectual, other than perhaps giving anabolism another little push?


Yes, pre-workout nutrition is important because it reduces markers for muscle damage during the workout which allows anabolism to overtake catabolism sooner.

I wouldn't say the workout induced testosterone spike is ineffectual as testosterone by iteslf is the bodies most anabolic hormone. The problem seems to be a lack of good data on how high and how long the spike last. What I would be very interested in seeing is if it improves the mean statistical value of the Circadian Rhythm. If such was the case then the Testosterone spike would be far from ineffectual and rather something to further exploit.

ST

Severed Ties
04-05-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Ironman8


ST, does this mean you don't need to cut cals to lose BF%? I mean, if your workout is vigerous enough (i.e 40 min. cardio, 2 hour lifting, 3 days a week).

Well I'm not counting my calories but if I had to eyeball it my average daily caloric is about 750 over what I usually cut bodyfat at, however I'm burning fat at a higher rate than usual as well.


ST

Severed Ties
04-05-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by the doc
ST i am very interested in this HIT idea. Whenever i have been dieting, recovery seems my main problem, and using a HIT approach would seem to be ideal by allowing maximal recovery without unneed stress (by unnescessary lifting)

I prefer HIT for bulking but if recovery is a problem then HIT may be the way to go. For dieting purposes I prefer volume training as HIT is not nearly as energy (caloric) demanding. I also believe Don Alessi showed a correlation between lactic acid buildup and fat burning whihc is where he came up with Meltdown training.

I'd say give it a try if recovery is an issue Doc, some people try HIT and never train any other way again so always experiment.

ST

Severed Ties
04-05-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by CBates
ST, I'm curious as to what your macros look like on your refeeds? Do you keep them the same and just up the calories? Use mostly carbs (if so does it matter if they're starchy or sugary)? Just eat whatever you want to that day?

Umm I'd say I use like a 40/1000 split between protein and total physique ruining crap...

So far today I went for breakfast with my best friend and had some highly nutrition chocolate chip pancakes, scrambled eggs and chased it down with a large milk shake.....a few hours later I was getting supplies for my boss so I hit about $8 worth of dollar menu at Wendy's and I'll probably hit a steak house tonight.....so NO their is absolutely no accounting for macro's or calories this day.

The only thing I make sure is that their is protein in every meal and I get at least 350 grams total for the day.

Now I could easily make better food choices but their is a method to my madness. My logic behind this is simple, for 6 days out of the week I an burning a very high amount of fat, now usually the body will ALWAYS find away to adapt a preserve fat. If it didn't everyone would just eat 2K calories a day and be ripped like the pro's. So First my goal for that day is to gain as much fat as possible because I want to try and trick my body into turning off as many adaption/starvation defense mechansims as possible. Secondly is supercompensation, despite whatever fat I add their is a noticable change in both vascularity and overall strength the day following. Keeping strength stable and slowly improving is important to ensure LBM preservation. For example last monday I hit a personal best of 275 x 5 on close grip bench despite a 4lb drop in scale weight. Finally you never start a diet giving 100% because when your body adapts you have nothing left to change to break through plateaus. So I'm only in the early stages of my diet. I honestly can't imagine being able to eat this way at 7%...not that I will complain if I can,lol. But if/when I plateau I will then clean up my cheat day into a more controlled refeed which should allow me to get a few % leaner.


ST

AJ_11
04-05-2003, 03:49 PM
ST, You make intersesting statement. Do you have a journal? Another question what do you usually eat during the week. You mentioned that your caloric intake is above maintence, is that every day of the week. What kind of meal combinations do you focus on before/ after training and throughout the rest of the day.

Thanks for your input.

Isaac Wilkins
04-06-2003, 04:36 PM
Actually, the more I read from you, the more I think we're moving in similar directions, ST.

As I sort of outlined in my journal, I'm moving on to a different type of diet starting this week. After coming off my CKD experiment, I gave myself last week to ease some carbs back into my diet.

Either way, here's the plan: ~3000 cals/day (slightly below maintenence), 350 grams of protein, roughly a 45/25/30 p/c/f split. Most of the carbs will take place earlier in the day. Training will occur between 3:00-5:00 pm generally. One day a week is going to be much less stringent. I'll try to take in my protein, but otherwise I'll basically just feed to keep leptin levels high, etc.

My training will consist of my normal 4/5 day split, plus a couple of HIIT sessions, with perhaps a long, slow walk once a week as well.

Thoughts?

The goal is to lean out slowly by gaining small amounts of mass with minimal/negative fat gain. I'm trying to cheat the system a little.

Severed Ties
04-06-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11
ST, You make intersesting statement. Do you have a journal? Another question what do you usually eat during the week. You mentioned that your caloric intake is above maintence, is that every day of the week. What kind of meal combinations do you focus on before/ after training and throughout the rest of the day.

Thanks for your input.

I keep a lifting log but no I don't have a journal, I had considered starting one but I just don't see myself keeping up with it for lack of time.

I believe my caloric is above maintence everyday. My calories are higher on workout days but I also eat more meals the longer I am awake. I usually eat 6-7 times a day but the other day I was up for 21 hours so I ate 8 meals. Today I slept very late because losing that hour last night meant I didn't get in till 5:00am so I only ate 5 meals today.

My meals change everyday except post-workout but the most common things I consume on a given day is

Protein comes from-
Flank steak
lean ground turkey burgers
skinless chicken breasts
Deli sliced turkey breast or lean ham
Whey isolate

Carbs-

dextrose
whole wheat bread
oatmeal

Fat's-
Olive oil is my highest fat source 60-70grams/day
6-10 grams EPH/DHA fish oil
trace animal fats
cheese

Before training I consume a small carb/protein drink but I'm still undecided on the best source of each.

Post workout- dextrose/isolate shake

During day depends on energry needs but I try to make sure my glycogen stores are never completely full. Today I grabbed my disturbed album and went for 1.5 hour run so my body is going to need a greater amount of carbs than had I just sat around. I also do some rockwall climbing which is also energy demanding. When I'm not particularly active, like sitting around the pharmacy I favor fat based meals.


ST

Severed Ties
04-06-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Borris
Actually, the more I read from you, the more I think we're moving in similar directions, ST.

As I sort of outlined in my journal, I'm moving on to a different type of diet starting this week. After coming off my CKD experiment, I gave myself last week to ease some carbs back into my diet.

Either way, here's the plan: ~3000 cals/day (slightly below maintenence), 350 grams of protein, roughly a 45/25/30 p/c/f split. Most of the carbs will take place earlier in the day. Training will occur between 3:00-5:00 pm generally. One day a week is going to be much less stringent. I'll try to take in my protein, but otherwise I'll basically just feed to keep leptin levels high, etc.

My training will consist of my normal 4/5 day split, plus a couple of HIIT sessions, with perhaps a long, slow walk once a week as well.

Thoughts?

The goal is to lean out slowly by gaining small amounts of mass with minimal/negative fat gain. I'm trying to cheat the system a little.

Well after the day I had yesterday I think feeding to keep leptin levels high is my new hobby,lol.

I've been saying for a longtime with enough attention to detail it's very possible to gain muscle while reducing stored bodyfat so it looks like your on the right track. Your not cheating the system but rather graduating to the next level.:D



ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-06-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties


Well after the day I had yesterday I think feeding to keep leptin levels high is my new hobby,lol.

I've been saying for a longtime with enough attention to detail it's very possible to gain muscle while reducing stored bodyfat so it looks like your on the right track. Your not cheating the system but rather graduating to the next level.:D



ST

Sweet.

I noticed that you take a lot of olive oil. This is recommended in several of the studies I've read. My fats are going to be mostly olive, safflower, and fish oil. Any special reason for the olive oil other than it's generally good fats and cheap?

Severed Ties
04-07-2003, 12:02 AM
3 reasons which you hit 2 of....

#1 Olive oil is a natural uncoupler.
#2 Excellent for the heart and health
#3 Dirt cheap, I couldn't afford Flax or Udo's oil at an equal dose.


ST

AJ_11
04-07-2003, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by Severed Ties



Before training I consume a small carb/protein drink but I'm still undecided on the best source of each.


ST

I recently have been expiremting with a whey/malto/dextrose combo during workout, it seems to give a nice energy boost.

Also you mention that you perform HIIT style training. What does you routine look like and do you do cardio other than running on you off days.

arjun
04-07-2003, 01:48 AM
Yeah, ive heard a lot of people talking about HIIT training, but i dont know anything about it. Where can i get more info?

bradley
04-07-2003, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by arjun
Yeah, ive heard a lot of people talking about HIIT training, but i dont know anything about it. Where can i get more info?

HIIT is high intensity interval training and there is a sticky in the training forum on this.

I think AJ11 was referring to HIT which is high intensity training. You can run a search in the training forum and pull up some information.

Isaac Wilkins
04-07-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
3 reasons which you hit 2 of....

#1 Olive oil is a natural uncoupler.
#2 Excellent for the heart and health
#3 Dirt cheap, I couldn't afford Flax or Udo's oil at an equal dose.


ST

By what mechanism does olive oil work as an uncoupler? I'm all about that feature.

Here's a question I've been kicking around, maybe you have the answer. If not, then Tryska or Pman might. Ok, CLA. I like it, between 4-6 grams per day. Now, most CLA is derived from safflower oil. The CLA capsules I'm looking at right now state:

Sunflower/Safflower Oil: 3000mg
CLA: 2100mg
Cis-9, Trans-11 Isomer: 990mg
Trans-10, CIS-12 Isomer: 990mg
Other Isomers: 120mg

How much CLA (if any) am I getting from straight up safflower oil? So if I were to take one or two tbsp of safflower oil (the plan) per day, in addition to olive oil, that's 14,000-28,000mg of safflower oil. I realize it may not be as isolated CLA as marketed capsules, but by volume...

Am I getting appreciable amounts of CLA from this? It's cheaper, and easier to plan with calories. Also it's mostly monounsaturated, so it's not bad fats.

Thoughts?

carolinagirl
04-07-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Borris


By what mechanism does olive oil work as an uncoupler? I'm all about that feature.

Me too.

Severed Ties
04-07-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11


I recently have been expiremting with a whey/malto/dextrose combo during workout, it seems to give a nice energy boost.

Also you mention that you perform HIIT style training. What does you routine look like and do you do cardio other than running on you off days.


I don't usually perform HIT because of the stress it places on the joints as the muscle reaches complete physical failure. If I've been training with my normal volume workouts I'll switch to HIT while bulking.

I train 3x a week M, W, F hitting each bodypart with one set more intense than my entire volume workout combined.

When dieting I pretty much do cardio 5x a week...sometimes this is on training days and sometimes not. I just don't do anything on my cheat day expect act like a fat blob. On top of my normal running for cardio I do rockwall climbing and occasionally grappling.


ST

Severed Ties
04-07-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Borris


By what mechanism does olive oil work as an uncoupler? I'm all about that feature.

Here's a question I've been kicking around, maybe you have the answer. If not, then Tryska or Pman might. Ok, CLA. I like it, between 4-6 grams per day. Now, most CLA is derived from safflower oil. The CLA capsules I'm looking at right now state:

Sunflower/Safflower Oil: 3000mg
CLA: 2100mg
Cis-9, Trans-11 Isomer: 990mg
Trans-10, CIS-12 Isomer: 990mg
Other Isomers: 120mg

How much CLA (if any) am I getting from straight up safflower oil? So if I were to take one or two tbsp of safflower oil (the plan) per day, in addition to olive oil, that's 14,000-28,000mg of safflower oil. I realize it may not be as isolated CLA as marketed capsules, but by volume...

Am I getting appreciable amounts of CLA from this? It's cheaper, and easier to plan with calories. Also it's mostly monounsaturated, so it's not bad fats.

Thoughts?

Olive oil works by upregulation of UCP proteins- see first study

Regarding CLA, in the second study rats feed a safflower oil based diets developed obesity where fish oils did not. I'm not sure how CLA is processed but I know it is rendered useless from sunlight. So I doubt most commercial safflower oils are processed in the right conditions to preserve CLA.

If safflower was a measurable source of CLA I believe the rats would have gotten leaner. Believe me I wish that safflower oil worked as I have a few friends using 30+ grams of CLA/day and the results are very noticable.

Back on the uncoupler topic it seems the olive oil and fish oil makes a bit of a natural uncoupler stack in itself....sometimes I'm so good and don't even realize it,lol



Olive oil feeding up-regulates uncoupling protein genes in rat brown adipose tissue and skeletal muscle.

Rodriguez VM, Portillo MP, Pico C, Macarulla MT, Palou A.

Department of Nutrition and Food Science, the University of Pais Vasco, Vitoria, Spain.

BACKGROUND: Some nutrients, such as carotenoids, retinoic acid, and certain types of fatty acids, increase thermogenic capacity. OBJECTIVE: The influence of 4 dietary lipid sources (olive oil, sunflower oil, palm oil, and beef tallow) on the content of uncoupling proteins 1, 2, and 3 (UCP1, UCP2, and UCP3) and their messenger RNA (mRNA) expression in several tissues of rats was compared. DESIGN: Wistar rats were randomly divided into 4 groups and fed ad libitum diets containing 40% of energy as fat. UCP1, UCP2, and UCP3 mRNA and protein were assessed by Northern blot and Western blot, respectively. Oxygen consumption in tissues was measured by polarography. Total-body oxygen consumption was assessed in an open-circuit chamber system. Circulating fuels (fatty acids and glucose) and hormones (triiodothyronine, thyroxine, corticosterone, and insulin) were measured. RESULTS: Olive oil feeding induced the highest UCP1, UCP2, and UCP3 mRNA expression in interscapular brown adipose tissue. An analogous effect was observed in gastrocnemius muscle UCP3 mRNA. No significant differences were observed in perirenal white adipose tissue UCP2 mRNA. Changes in mRNAs were not accompanied by close changes in the protein content of UCPs and were not associated with changes in adipose tissue oxygen consumption. Nevertheless, total-body oxygen consumption was higher in rats fed olive oil than in those fed the other 3 diets. No significant differences were found in body and tissue weights or in serum indexes. CONCLUSION: Olive oil induced an up-regulating effect on UCP mRNA that was probably not mediated by systemic metabolic changes, but rather related to a local effect on interscapular brown adipose tissue and skeletal muscle.

PMID: 11815310 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Up-regulation of liver uncoupling protein-2 mRNA by either fish oil feeding or fibrate administration in mice.

Tsuboyama-Kasaoka N, Takahashi M, Kim H, Ezaki O.

Division of Clinical Nutrition, National Institute of Health and Nutrition, 1-23-1, Toyama, Shinjuku-ku, Tokyo, 162-8636, Japan.

Fish oil feeding showed less obesity in rodents, relative to other dietary oils. N-3 fatty acids rich in fish oil and fibrate compounds are peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPARalpha) ligands that stimulate beta-oxidation of fatty acids in liver and are used for treatment of hypertriglycemic patients. Since UCP-2, a member of an uncoupling protein family, has been shown to express in hepatocytes, the effects of these agents on the expression of UCP2 mRNA were investigated. C57BL/6J mice were divided into three groups; the first group was given a high-carbohydrate diet, and the other two groups were given a high-fat diet (60% of total energy) as safflower oil or fish oil for 5 months. Safflower oil diet fed mice developed obesity, but those fed fish oil diet did not. Therefore, the effects of fish oil feeding on the expression of UCP1, UCP2 and UCP3 in liver, skeletal muscle (gastrocnemius), white adipose tissue (WAT) and brown adipose tissue (BAT) were assessed by Northern blotting. Compared with safflower oil feeding, fish oil feeding up-regulated liver UCP2, BAT UCP2 and skeletal muscle UCP3 mRNA, while down-regulated WAT UCP2 and BAT UCP3 mRNA. Among these alterations, 5-fold up-regulation of liver UCP2 mRNA, relative to carbohydrate feeding, was noteworthy. Fenofibrate administration (about 500 mg/kg BW/d) for 2 wks also induced liver UCP2 expression by 9-fold. These data indicated that fish oil feeding and fibrate administration each up-regulated UCP2 mRNA expression in liver possibly via PPARalpha and hence each has the potential of increasing energy expenditure for prevention of obesity. Copyright 1999 Academic Press.





ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-07-2003, 06:42 PM
Well, sh*t. It was a nice idea while it lasted. ;)

Ah well. The fish oil/olive oil thing is interesting. I'll be running like 12g of fish oil and 2-4 tbsp of olive oil per day, I think. Doses sound good?

I noticed that it seems to have more of an effect on brown fat. Isn't brown fat only a small percentage of the body's fat?

I seem to remember that brown fat was some sort of heat regulator for the body, ie if you stimulated the brown fat your body temperature rose and you lost more white fat?

AJ_11
04-07-2003, 06:46 PM
Is it specific to olive oil or can the same be acheived with monosaturates fats found in food for example nuts like almonds and Peanut Butter.

Severed Ties
04-07-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Borris
Well, sh*t. It was a nice idea while it lasted. ;)

Ah well. The fish oil/olive oil thing is interesting. I'll be running like 12g of fish oil and 2-4 tbsp of olive oil per day, I think. Doses sound good?

I noticed that it seems to have more of an effect on brown fat. Isn't brown fat only a small percentage of the body's fat?

I seem to remember that brown fat was some sort of heat regulator for the body, ie if you stimulated the brown fat your body temperature rose and you lost more white fat?

Doses sound good.

Yes your memory serves you right about brown fat brown, adipocytes express mitochondrial uncoupling protein, which gives the cell's mitochondria an ability to uncouple oxidative phosphorylation and utilize substrates to generate heat rather than ATP. Exposure to cold leads to sympathetic stimulation of brown adipocyte via norepinephrine binding to beta- adrenergic receptors. As in white fat, sympathetic stimulation promotes hydrolysis of triglyceride, with release of fatty acids and glycerol. However, within brown adipocytes, most fatty acids are immediately oxidized in mitochondria and, because of the uncoupling protein, a large amount of heat is produced. This process is part of what is called non-shivering thermogenesis.

While humans have little brown fat their is a link between UCP's brown fat and obesity. In a study done on mice with genetically absent brown fat the mice became obese despite an absense of overfeeding. An increase in whole body thermogenesis would also explain why many people report sweating from olive oil

Another thought that just crossed my mind is increased UCP activity is main way supplemental t-3 burns fat while nitrogen loss is what causes muscle wasteing. So maximizing UCP production along with thyoid function from refeeds may explain the abnormally high amount of fat I'm burning per week.

ST

Severed Ties
04-07-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Is it specific to olive oil or can the same be acheived with monosaturates fats found in food for example nuts like almonds and Peanut Butter.


Olive oil specific.



ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-08-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Severed Ties



Olive oil specific.



ST

I'd never really thought of the sweating after eating olive oil, but now that you mention it...

I have felt quite the thermogenic bump after my protein shakes with olive oil in them the past couple of days. I don't usually notice sweating after shakes.

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 11:15 AM
Same here, I noticed that my body temp increased and I'd start to sweat after my high fat meals so I figured their had to be something special going on.

ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-08-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
Same here, I noticed that my body temp increased and I'd start to sweat after my high fat meals so I figured their had to be something special going on.

ST

The diet philosophy that I picked up a lot of my ideas from dictates 2-4 or even more tbsp of olive oil per day. However, the author doesn't at all mention this feature.

It's a quite high calorie diet that is designed to be anabolic yet keep fat at least static (so possibly leaning by percentage). At face value it looks too high in calories, but makes a big deal about timing, etc. I'm wondering if part of the success of his diet might be the olive oil, and he doesn't realize it. He specifies that it's good for the reasons I gave (cheap, and generally good fats).

bradley
04-08-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Borris


The diet philosophy that I picked up a lot of my ideas from dictates 2-4 or even more tbsp of olive oil per day. However, the author doesn't at all mention this feature.

It's a quite high calorie diet that is designed to be anabolic yet keep fat at least static (so possibly leaning by percentage). At face value it looks too high in calories, but makes a big deal about timing, etc. I'm wondering if part of the success of his diet might be the olive oil, and he doesn't realize it. He specifies that it's good for the reasons I gave (cheap, and generally good fats).

Who is the author? Got any links or other info? Thanks in advance.

AJ_11
04-08-2003, 12:02 PM
Most places that I have read all mention olive oil, specificially even more than monosaturate fat. I know that Faigin and some other BB authors prefer Olive oil as a source of monos. Maybe because of the thermogenic properties.

ST, you mentioned that you are not doing a cals in and cals out, and your cals coming in is slightly higher and you seem to be losing fat. Are you also losing weight?

Do you take in more oil than food souces. I know when my diet has more oil I feel lighter and have more energy, than a diet of food even in meals with he same caloric range.

AJ

Vido
04-08-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
I believe my caloric is above maintence everyday. My calories are higher on workout days but I also eat more meals the longer I am awake. I usually eat 6-7 times a day but the other day I was up for 21 hours so I ate 8 meals. Today I slept very late because losing that hour last night meant I didn't get in till 5:00am so I only ate 5 meals today.

ST

2 questions:

1) How many more calories do you consume on a workout day than a rest day?

2) The number of meals changes as the amount of time spent awake changes. Do the size of the meals change to reflect this, or do you just eat more calories the longer you are awake?

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Borris


The diet philosophy that I picked up a lot of my ideas from dictates 2-4 or even more tbsp of olive oil per day. However, the author doesn't at all mention this feature.

It's a quite high calorie diet that is designed to be anabolic yet keep fat at least static (so possibly leaning by percentage). At face value it looks too high in calories, but makes a big deal about timing, etc. I'm wondering if part of the success of his diet might be the olive oil, and he doesn't realize it. He specifies that it's good for the reasons I gave (cheap, and generally good fats).

I'm sure its a feature very few are aware of, we get a good amount of literature on Olive oil and Fish oils at the pharmacy to councel pateints on certain medications of the benefits these oils have for the heart. I've yet to see an article discuss UCP's or thermogenic value of these oils but the authors just seem to think these oils magically help improve cardiovascular problems through unknown mechansims. My thought is that they unknowingly help decrease heart disease risk factors by their actions on a metabolic level. So by simply adding them to a persons normal live style their is a net improvement in their life style even though nothing else changed, which leads to a healthier heart.


ST

the doc
04-08-2003, 02:02 PM
this one needs to stay at the top
lot of good stuff here

the doc
04-08-2003, 02:04 PM
St there have been some data collected regarding fish oils and eicosanoids. Apparently these may have important function in terms of controlling inflammation (and therefore effect the process of arteriosclerosis and other chronic inflammatory processes)

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Most places that I have read all mention olive oil, specificially even more than monosaturate fat. I know that Faigin and some other BB authors prefer Olive oil as a source of monos. Maybe because of the thermogenic properties.

ST, you mentioned that you are not doing a cals in and cals out, and your cals coming in is slightly higher and you seem to be losing fat. Are you also losing weight?

Do you take in more oil than food souces. I know when my diet has more oil I feel lighter and have more energy, than a diet of food even in meals with he same caloric range.

AJ

Losing weight no...I hate losing weight. When I started this diet I dropped 10 pounds in the first two weeks which is WAY to much scale weight for my liking. Which is how I ended up bringing my calories well over maintanience. Actually given the calories I take in during my ridiculous refeed I should be gaining around 2 pounds a week if I went by pure math of calories in vs calories out. However my weight seems to have stablized as I have not lost any further scale weight but I am a fuk of alot leaner than I was 18 days ago.

I use oil as my primary fat source as I take in a some with just about every meal. I a few grams of fat from my protein source an I melt a slice of cheese but the bulk of fat comes from oil rather than solid food.

Also you hit something else which I have a hard time explaining, using oil as a primary fat source does make me feel "light" and energized. It feels like having the absence of the "full" feeling associated with eating a meal but also completely satiates hunger.

ST

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Vido


2 questions:

1) How many more calories do you consume on a workout day than a rest day?

2) The number of meals changes as the amount of time spent awake changes. Do the size of the meals change to reflect this, or do you just eat more calories the longer you are awake?

1) Something like 500-700 because the inclusion of pre- and post-workout meals.

2) My meals usually stay around the same size, just more of them if I am awake longer. However if I knew for some reason that I was going to be unable to eat for 4 hours or so then yes I would eat a bit larger of meal.


ST

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by the doc
St there have been some data collected regarding fish oils and eicosanoids. Apparently these may have important function in terms of controlling inflammation (and therefore effect the process of arteriosclerosis and other chronic inflammatory processes)

Yes the eicosanoids date is rather fascinating, one of the articles in our last issue of "pharmacy times" took a close look at EPH/DHA fish oils involvment with this. Controlling inflammation is definitely one of the important mechanism as you said but their have to be other benefits as well because I don't believe controlling inflammation explains how fish oils seem to improve just about every different type of cardiovascular ailment we know of....and believe me the article covered about 20 different types of cardiovascular problems all of which fish oils were shown to improve in well controlled medium-long term studies.

Your definitly right though Doc, I didn't ever think of it till you pointed this out but personally I've noticed the anti-inflammatory effects big time with regards to my shoulder pain. I'm planning to add in some Cod liver oil in the next few weeks and hopefully get further benefits. But my shoulder ROM has improved and I haven't had to stop a workout yet because of the pain being unbareable since I made these changes.


ST

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-08-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties


I'm sure its a feature very few are aware of, we get a good amount of literature on Olive oil and Fish oils at the pharmacy to councel pateints on certain medications of the benefits these oils have for the heart. I've yet to see an article discuss UCP's or thermogenic value of these oils but the authors just seem to think these oils magically help improve cardiovascular problems through unknown mechansims. My thought is that they unknowingly help decrease heart disease risk factors by their actions on a metabolic level. So by simply adding them to a persons normal live style their is a net improvement in their life style even though nothing else changed, which leads to a healthier heart.


ST

Run a search on MFW on "fish oils and Elzi Volk" or "UCP and Elzi".

A full study on n-3 fatty acids and what-not: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/4/415

A full study on n-3 (and n-6) for health and what-not: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/560S

Some stuff on UCP's for anyone interested: http://lsvl.la.asu.edu/bio569/jhazel/uncouplingproteinwebsite/Uncoupling%20Proteins%20Home.htm


I just had these links in my favourites for ages if anyone is interested.

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-08-2003, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties


Yes the eicosanoids date is rather fascinating, one of the articles in our last issue of "pharmacy times" took a close look at EPH/DHA fish oils involvment with this. Controlling inflammation is definitely one of the important mechanism as you said but their have to be other benefits as well because I don't believe controlling inflammation explains how fish oils seem to improve just about every different type of cardiovascular ailment we know of....and believe me the article covered about 20 different types of cardiovascular problems all of which fish oils were shown to improve in well controlled medium-long term studies.

Your definitly right though Doc, I didn't ever think of it till you pointed this out but personally I've noticed the anti-inflammatory effects big time with regards to my shoulder pain. I'm planning to add in some Cod liver oil in the next few weeks and hopefully get further benefits. But my shoulder ROM has improved and I haven't had to stop a workout yet because of the pain being unbareable since I made these changes.


ST

Elzi Volk has been using large doses of fish oils (16 caps a day or so - at LEAST 12) to control shoulder problems or back problems - some kind of problem anyway.

Isaac Wilkins
04-08-2003, 07:17 PM
CD, those are great articles, I'm digesting them now.

More about this fish oil as a treatment for injury thing... What else do you know?

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 07:18 PM
Good links Rob.

Based on the improvements I've had with my shoulders thus far I will try upping the dose to 16g/day when I can get my hands on more and see how it feels, thanks for the info on Volk

ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-08-2003, 07:22 PM
ST,

Why are you thinking of taking cod liver oil? This time of year, especially coming up, you should be able to swing enough Vit D, etc so that it might actually be toxic.

Any reasons for that beyond normal fish oil?

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 07:46 PM
My reason being shoulder pain, I know quite a few people who swear by it for joint pain....and I've got plenty of that to go around,lol so I was going to give it shot.

ST

AJ_11
04-08-2003, 07:55 PM
Fish oil, has really help my shoulder pain aswell. I mean what shoulder pain. There are so many other benefits in it as well. If you are worried about the Vit D from cod, why don't you use fish oil instead. To my knowledge it just has less Vit D in it.

I think that I am on the same goal as to lose just fat but not weight. I am going to start incorporating more oils in the place of foods.

Question, how do you usually supplement you oil, like in a whey shake or straight up. And do you take in any protein/fibre/ Carbs with it.

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 08:03 PM
I only use one shake/day for a meal so I generally get stuck taking it straight up which is rather gross so I mix it with a little diet coke and slam it like a shot,lol. I take it with almost every meal.


ST

carolinagirl
04-08-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Borris
Why are you thinking of taking cod liver oil? This time of year, especially coming up, you should be able to swing enough Vit D, etc so that it might actually be toxic. Any reasons for that beyond normal fish oil?

Actually, I'm thinking of adding cod liver oil to my normal fish oil cap supplementation (and, of course, now more olive oil too!!) - one reason is that almost all of the original research done on the anti-inflammatory and cardiovascular benefits of fish oils were done with cod liver oil specifically. I have a friend whose father was the main researcher on those studies, and he (the father) takes cod liver rather than non-specific fish oil.

My doctor told me (correct me if this is wrong, ST) that generic drugs often don't have exactly the same action as the original drugs due to some kind of synergistic effect between the 'active' components and some of the 'inert' ones. There could be the same sort of thing going on with something not pinpointed yet in the cod liver oil. Also, it's cheap.

I've been doing lots of extra calcium supplementation lately as per Par's ideas (calcium-mediated lipolysis, etc) and I probably need a higher level of D to maintain the optimal balance of these two anyway.

So I'm looking at: 30 g fish oil caps (currently - may drop it to 20), 2-4 tbs olive oil, and 1-2 tbs cod liver oil per day. What do you think of that, ST? (I'm doing about 1500-2000 mg of cal-mag citrate daily, btw.)


(Oh, and ST - I'm really glad you've been contributing in D&N lately as well as Anabolics - your knowledge of the endocrine systems is really impressive, and it's just as applicable to dietary manipulations as it is to pharmaceutical ones. You're a great resource - the rapid growth of this thread testifies to that, I think.)

Isaac Wilkins
04-08-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by carolinagirl



So I'm looking at: 30 g fish oil caps (currently - may drop it to 20), 2-4 tbs olive oil, and 1-2 tbs cod liver oil per day. What do you think of that, ST? (I'm doing about 1500-2000 mg of cal-mag citrate daily, btw.)


(Oh, and ST - I'm really glad you've been contributing in D&N lately as well as Anabolics - your knowledge of the endocrine systems is really impressive, and it's just as applicable to dietary manipulations as it is to pharmaceutical ones. You're a great resource - the rapid growth of this thread testifies to that, I think.)

You bring up a point that I hadn't thought of. Excellent.

The only thing I notice is that you're going to go much higher in overall cals if you make that switch. I know this thread is all about that, but since you do monitor your cals so closely I just thought I'd point it out to you.

30g fish oil = 270 cals.

20g fish oil = 180 cals
2 tbsp olive oil = 240 cals
1 tbsp cod oil = 120 cals (unless it's somehow denser than normal lipid? I doubt it).

That's a net increase of 270 cals. That's using your minimums. Of course, I support an increase myself, but I'm just letting you know. I don't know if you really have any other substantial fat to remove from your diet to make room?


Amen to what cgirl said on the welcome, ST. We males aren't generally as good at showing our emotion, but I agree with her. ;) It's good to have you in here.

*stiff, awkward fingerclap hug*

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by carolinagirl


My doctor told me (correct me if this is wrong, ST) that generic drugs often don't have exactly the same action as the original drugs due to some kind of synergistic effect between the 'active' components and some of the 'inert' ones. There could be the same sort of thing going on with something not pinpointed yet in the cod liver oil. Also, it's cheap.

I've been doing lots of extra calcium supplementation lately as per Par's ideas (calcium-mediated lipolysis, etc) and I probably need a higher level of D to maintain the optimal balance of these two anyway.

So I'm looking at: 30 g fish oil caps (currently - may drop it to 20), 2-4 tbs olive oil, and 1-2 tbs cod liver oil per day. What do you think of that, ST? (I'm doing about 1500-2000 mg of cal-mag citrate daily, btw.)


(Oh, and ST - I'm really glad you've been contributing in D&N lately as well as Anabolics - your knowledge of the endocrine systems is really impressive, and it's just as applicable to dietary manipulations as it is to pharmaceutical ones. You're a great resource - the rapid growth of this thread testifies to that, I think.)


Your doctor is partially correct, their are some common generic drugs which do not work as well as the brand for a statistically significant portion of the population. Synthroid is an excellent example of this. Their are a wide variety of inert materials, binders, and fillers used in making each drug. These materials can range in both in price based on quality and organic or in-organic origin. Generic drugs are only allowed to use the active drug compound but the materials, binders, and fillers are different. Advanced things like the stability of the molecule the change the effectivness of the drug if a lower quality materials are used. Conversely on the simpler side some of these materials are derived from animal organs a minor allergy could be the problem.

Supplemental calcium is something I've been using as well now that you mention it.

Oil intake looks real nice, I find 1 tablespoon of olive oil with 6 grams of EPH/DHA fish oil caps and 2 caps of CLA make for a real good sweat.

I'm glad to know my presence is appreciated.:) thanks both of you. It's kinda funny but I didn't expect my comment to grow into such a thread,lol. I finally have a more relaxed work schedule so I have time to wander out of anabolics. I believe dietary manipulations are far more important than pharmacutical ones. To lack the first is to become dependent on the second, which completely defeats the purpose of trying to live a healthy life style.

Oh and borris a manly hug is ok provided it lasts no more than 1 second...any longer and your totally gay.:p

ST

AJ_11
04-08-2003, 10:29 PM
I realise that this thread is growing with a somewhat of an off topic length, but I agree this is some excellent info.

Calcuim? - what for exactly and when. I pressume that it should be either taken alone or with some fat away from fibre as it may bind.

Btw, your is your field of work ST. Just curious. And props for your knowledge added to this thread.

Severed Ties
04-08-2003, 11:23 PM
Well I'm mainly a student but I work as a pharmacy tech.

Here's the study on calcium and fat loss

J Nutr 2003 Jan;133(1):252S-256S

Mechanisms of dairy modulation of adiposity.

Zemel MB.

Department of Nutrition, The University of Tennessee, Knoxville 37996, USA. mzemel@utk.edu

Dietary calcium plays a pivotal role in the regulation of energy metabolism, in that we have found high calcium diets to attenuate adipocyte lipid accretion and weight gain during periods of overconsumption of an energy-dense diet and to increase lipolysis and preserve thermogenesis during caloric restriction, thereby markedly accelerating weight loss. Our studies of the agouti gene in obesity and insulin resistance demonstrate a key role for intracellular Ca(2+) in regulating adipocyte lipid metabolism and triglyceride storage, with increased intracellular Ca(2+), resulting in stimulation of lipogenic gene expression and lipogenesis, and suppression of lipolysis, resulting in adipocyte lipid filling and increased adiposity. Moreover, we have recently demonstrated that the increased calcitriol produced in response to low calcium diets stimulates Ca(2+) influx in human adipocytes and thereby promotes adiposity. Accordingly, suppressing calcitriol levels by increasing dietary calcium is an attractive target for the prevention and management of obesity. In support of this concept, transgenic mice expressing the agouti gene specifically in adipocytes (a humanlike pattern) respond to low calcium diets with accelerated weight gain and fat accretion, whereas high calcium diets markedly inhibit lipogenesis, accelerate lipolysis, increase thermogenesis and suppress fat accretion and weight gain in animals maintained at identical caloric intakes. Further, low calcium diets impede body fat loss, whereas high calcium diets markedly accelerate fat loss in transgenic mice subjected to caloric restriction. Notably, dairy sources of calcium exert markedly greater effects in attenuating weight and fat gain and accelerating fat loss. This augmented effect of dairy vs. supplemental calcium is likely attributable to additional bioactive compounds in dairy that act synergistically with calcium to attenuate adiposity; among these are angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitory peptides, which limit angiotensin II production and thereby limit angiotensin II stimulation of adipocyte lipogenesis. These concepts are confirmed by both epidemiological and clinical data, which similarly demonstrate that dairy products exert a substantially greater effect on both fat loss and fat distribution compared to an equivalent amount of supplemental calcium.

carolinagirl
04-09-2003, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11
Calcuim? - what for exactly and when. I pressume that it should be either taken alone or with some fat away from fibre as it may bind.

Lyle said that if he could design the ideal vehicle to optimize calcium absorption it would be exactly like dairy. So, I take 500-1000 mg cal-mag citrate in the morning (with some dairy) and 1000-1500 mg before bed, (again with some dairy).

Ironman8
04-09-2003, 07:23 AM
Wow, interesting info on the calcium article.

CBates
04-09-2003, 07:46 AM
So what would be a recommended dosage of calcium for one to take to accelerate fat loss? Also, would it be best to take calcium supplements in one or two meals, or spread them out to have in each meal?

raniali
04-09-2003, 11:26 AM
after reading this thread i think that everyone will probably be running out to stock up on fish oils (ie cod) and whatnot...however, my concern with such high dosages was brought up in another relatively recent thread that too much EPA/DHA will increase bleeding.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27714&highlight=bleeding+fish

there has to be some medium between the oils for health benefits vs disadvantages.

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-09-2003, 12:18 PM
Of course, Ali. Pretty much anything in "excessive" amounts can cause problems.

We had a good thread on fish oils that brought up the reduced blood clotting incidence: http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=28737&highlight=fish+oils+bleeding

Isaac Wilkins
04-09-2003, 12:51 PM
Ok, ST, let's continue this partitioning discussion. This is partially in response to the questions I had in the "qs on spillover" thread, but I wanted to drag it back here as it applies.

You're stating that one can eat at maintenence, or above, not in ketosis, and gain muscle/lose stored fat at the same time. I agree, but let's see if my thinking is the same as yours.

Ok, eating around maintenence, perhaps slightly over:

Muscular growth is induced through hard training. The window before anabolism takes over from catabolism is reduced through supplementation, rest, intensity, etc...

(I'm going to start pulling numbers out of the air for the sake of discussion)

Let's say that you induce the growth of two oz of muscle in a 24 hour period through early feeding and stimulation. You also induce the gain of 0.5 oz of bodyfat.

As the day wears on you convert more to fat burning, using uncoupling agents, anti-oxidents, thermogenesis, etc. You manage to burn two oz of stored bodyfat and 0.5 oz of muscle mass.

This would result in a net gain of 1.5 oz of muscle mass and a net loss of 1.5 oz of stored fat. Bodyweight would remain constant, while body fat percentage would decrease at a rate of 21 oz per week (I'm not getting into the refeeds, etc for the sake of simplicity).

Excellent in theory. You state that muscular gain and fat burning operate on seperate pathways. This logically allows the above theory to work. The question is: How? Or more closely, how does one make sure it works?

Can the body perform both at the same time with any sense of efficiency? Or does the body shift from anabolism to fat burning throughout the smaller time periods (24-36 hours) that would make this feasible?

PowerManDL
04-09-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
I also believe Don Alessi showed a correlation between lactic acid buildup and fat burning whihc is where he came up with Meltdown training.

He's not the only one.....I've got about ten separate studies sitting right here showing a correlation.....though its not lactate itself that causes the fat burning; rather its the recovery from the metabolic processes that cause lactate accumulation in the first place.

Gillette, C.A., R.C. Bullough, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure in response to acute aerobic or resistive exercise. Int. J. Sports Nutr. 4:347-360, 1994.

Phelain, J.F., E. Reinke, M.A. Harris, and C.L. Melby. Postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in young women resulting from exercise bouts of different intensity. J. Am. Col. Nutr. 16:140-146, 1997.

Pritzlaff, Wideman, et al. Catecholamine release, growth hormone secretion, and energy expenditure during exercise vs. recovery in men.

Rasmussen, B.B., and W.W. Winder. Effect of exercise intensity on skeletal muscle malonyl-CoA and acetyl-CoA carboxylase. J. Appl. Physiol. 83:1104-1109, 1997.

Smith, J., and L. McNaughton. The effects of intensity of exercise on excess postexercise oxygen consumption and energy expenditure in moderately trained men and women. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 67:420-425, 1993.

Tremblay, et al. Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism.
Metabolism, July 1, 1994; 43(7): 814-8.

Tremblay, A., J. Després, C. Leblanc, C.L. Craig, B. Ferris, T. Stephens, and C. Bouchard. Effect of intensity of physical activity on body fatness and fat distribution. Am J. Clin. Nutr. 51:153-157, 1990.

Treuth, M.S., G.R. Hunter, and M. Williams. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 28:1138-1143, 1996.

Yoshioka, et al. Impact of high-intensity exercise on energy expenditure, lipid oxidation and body fatness. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 2001 Mar;25(3):332-9

PowerManDL
04-09-2003, 04:26 PM
Wow, I just read through this thread all the way.....good stuff here.

ST, your logic behind short-term dietary planning is exactly why I've never once used calorie counts to control my daily intake. The body only knows what it needs at any given time, not over a day, or a week.

To me, eating is like training-- you apply the most appropriate scheme for the given moment.

Maki Riddington
04-09-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
My reason being shoulder pain, I know quite a few people who swear by it for joint pain....and I've got plenty of that to go around,lol so I was going to give it shot.

ST


*** My dad has been taking cod liver oil for sometime now at the request of his doctor for his joint pain. It seems that it's been working.

Severed Ties
04-09-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Borris
Ok, ST, let's continue this partitioning discussion. This is partially in response to the questions I had in the "qs on spillover" thread, but I wanted to drag it back here as it applies.

You're stating that one can eat at maintenence, or above, not in ketosis, and gain muscle/lose stored fat at the same time. I agree, but let's see if my thinking is the same as yours.

Ok, eating around maintenence, perhaps slightly over:

Muscular growth is induced through hard training. The window before anabolism takes over from catabolism is reduced through supplementation, rest, intensity, etc...

(I'm going to start pulling numbers out of the air for the sake of discussion)

Let's say that you induce the growth of two oz of muscle in a 24 hour period through early feeding and stimulation. You also induce the gain of 0.5 oz of bodyfat.

As the day wears on you convert more to fat burning, using uncoupling agents, anti-oxidents, thermogenesis, etc. You manage to burn two oz of stored bodyfat and 0.5 oz of muscle mass.

This would result in a net gain of 1.5 oz of muscle mass and a net loss of 1.5 oz of stored fat. Bodyweight would remain constant, while body fat percentage would decrease at a rate of 21 oz per week (I'm not getting into the refeeds, etc for the sake of simplicity).

Excellent in theory. You state that muscular gain and fat burning operate on seperate pathways. This logically allows the above theory to work. The question is: How? Or more closely, how does one make sure it works?

Can the body perform both at the same time with any sense of efficiency? Or does the body shift from anabolism to fat burning throughout the smaller time periods (24-36 hours) that would make this feasible?

Yes I briefly replied in the other thread.

How would best be answered as PowerMan stated, you eat strategically with a metabolic purpose. If you give your body nothing more than what it needs fat storage becomes impossible.

How does one make sure it works, currently all I need is a mirror and tape measure. I'd say performance progression while dieting is also a clear indicator...be it lifts, endurance, speed, or agility.

Can the body perform both at the same time with any sense of efficiency?...Abso-friggen-lotely.

I've come to believe that this is actually the most natural and efficient state the body can operate in. A state where fat is mobilized for energy to spare other nutrients, which can be used for other purposes...like building muscle. For simplicity sake stored fats only role in the body is an energy source when food is scarce, it is simply a survival mechanism. Muscles purpose is to perform work necessary for survival. The body does not know the if stimuli from weight training is because of a unessential desire to increase muscle capacity or if the stimuli is part of the organisms necessary survival. Since muscle growth is a survival mechanism the body will attempt to increase muscular capacity if it has the necessary materials (food/nutrients) available. Due to the availability of food these days excess stored bodyfat becomes unnecessary. So it is most natural for the body to operate or burn stored fat for energy while using available nutrients to build muscle. This way necessary materials of muscle growth are not compromised.

If you look back over a few hundred years, you will notice a dramatic difference in social levels of obesity. It seems that as society has advanced so has the average waist size. Not only has the quality of our food changed for the worse with advancement but our behaviors and reasons for eating have also changed for the worse.


ST

the doc
04-10-2003, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by raniali
after reading this thread i think that everyone will probably be running out to stock up on fish oils (ie cod) and whatnot...however, my concern with such high dosages was brought up in another relatively recent thread that too much EPA/DHA will increase bleeding.

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27714&highlight=bleeding+fish

there has to be some medium between the oils for health benefits vs disadvantages.

that is definitely a valid concern ali. I did hear barry sears mention that he was not aware of any problems related to 10-20 g quantities of high-dose fish oils (distilled and thus even higher in DHA/EPa)

the doc
04-10-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
If you look back over a few hundred years, you will notice a dramatic difference in social levels of obesity. It seems that as society has advanced so has the average waist size. Not only has the quality of our food changed for the worse with advancement but our behaviors and reasons for eating have also changed for the worse.


ST

ST I couldn't agree with you more. No doubt there is a correlation between the increase in stored BF and decrease in physical activity levels. As society has moved from rural agrarian living to modern city dwelling and desk jobs there has been a corresponding decrease in muscle needed for performing daily work and increase in the portion size and caloric richness of foodstuffs.

the doc
04-10-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by PowerManDL
Wow, I just read through this thread all the way.....good stuff here.

ST, your logic behind short-term dietary planning is exactly why I've never once used calorie counts to control my daily intake. The body only knows what it needs at any given time, not over a day, or a week.

To me, eating is like training-- you apply the most appropriate scheme for the given moment.

Yeah i mean intuitively this would seem to be the optimum way to plan eating. Funny though how very few diet plans i have read have addressed this concern. Certainly there are times when insulin release should be stimulated (for instance to induce recovery over catabolism), and times when it is not necessary.

For instance i remember a while back when DL posted about the desire for rising insulin levels toward the end of a workout but instead of using postworkout nutrition to stimulate this, PREworkout nutrition would do this.

raniali
04-10-2003, 10:58 AM
Maybe this has been addressed before, but how long does the body take to repair the micro-tears from trauma? Is it mostly done within the 2hrs post-workout, or over the next 2 days, or more? If you really want to eat for optimum efficiency and benefits, you will continue to need to provide sufficient calories for the duration of the repair -- which likely means you are continuing to eat generously if you train regularly. Therefore, I don't understand how one could adjust eating throughout the day/week in accordance with "different" needs of the body.

Someone help me.

PowerManDL
04-10-2003, 11:06 AM
Protein synthesis generally peaks in the 24-48 hours following a session.

And yes, you could plan for it by keeping the protein high and slightly increasing the carb intake.

raniali
04-10-2003, 11:16 AM
but my point is - if you are training regularly, then you are basically eating the same all the time.
correct me if i am wrong?

PowerManDL
04-10-2003, 11:25 AM
That's where modification of your training could come into play.

Lowering the volume, or increasing the anaerobic workload (which I'm doing now).

You wouldn't necessarily want to continue training the same way.

Severed Ties
04-10-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by the doc


ST I couldn't agree with you more. No doubt there is a correlation between the increase in stored BF and decrease in physical activity levels. As society has moved from rural agrarian living to modern city dwelling and desk jobs there has been a corresponding decrease in muscle needed for performing daily work and increase in the portion size and caloric richness of foodstuffs.

Doc you just sumed up the single biggest reason obesity is the problem it is today.



ST

Severed Ties
04-10-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by raniali
Maybe this has been addressed before, but how long does the body take to repair the micro-tears from trauma?


Mentioned a few pages back...it can take anywhere from 30 minutes to 24 hours for anabolism to surpass catabolism.. As Power mentioned 24-48 hours till peak. It usually takes a week for the body to completely repair micro-trauma.


ST

Severed Ties
04-10-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by raniali
but my point is - if you are training regularly, then you are basically eating the same all the time.
correct me if i am wrong?

Only if you believe all micro/macro nutrients are created equel.


ST

AJ_11
04-10-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties


Only if you believe all micro/macro nutrients are created equel.


ST

How do you usually split up your meals. I saw your split and kinda looks like mine on training days but then what do you eat the rest of the time.

For an example can you give a "typical day" training day/ post workout day on the type of meals you eat and when eat them.

Thank you for the time that you have put in so far and you have intriqued myself with your knowledge.

Ironman8
04-12-2003, 09:10 AM
Well, since this topic went way off-topic, I'll try to steer it back on course :)

Well, I completed my first week of cutting, and I got some o.k results. I lost 1Ib. the whole week, which is probably a good sign that it was fat. Today is my first weekend where I'm not cheating. It's only 8:00 a.m here in Cali, and I'm not thinking about food that much. I had 4 packets of Oatmeal and a cup of skim milk for breakfast, so that's what probably keeping me full.

Well, hopefully, I'll make it through the day. I'm thinking of cheating again on the last weekend of the month to push up my metabolism. All in all, I'm feeling good.

P.S Thanks for the response guys! You helped me alot.

Well, see ya.

Wu36
04-21-2003, 03:51 PM
Very interesting thread.
I might try something along these lines, i need a change and any more weight loss will be extremely depressing.

And I second AJ's request for a "sample day" if you have the time.

gino
04-23-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Ironman8
Well, I completed my first week of cutting, and I got some o.k results. I lost 1Ib. the whole week, which is probably a good sign that it was fat. Today is my first weekend where I'm not cheating. It's only 8:00 a.m here in Cali, and I'm not thinking about food that much. I had 4 packets of Oatmeal and a cup of skim milk for breakfast, so that's what probably keeping me full.



I'm hoping that breakfast is for your cheat day because I would not have a meal like that on a strict day while cutting

Ironman8
04-30-2003, 07:30 PM
Well, I guess I should post how the refeed went :)

I shouldn't call it a "refeed", but a cheatday :D. It lasted 3 days, my I didn't binge on alot of junkfood. I ate a alot of cereal (with milk of course), baked chips, and some other crap.

My cutting went well also. Lost 5Ibs., and dropped down to 8% BF. All in all, I'm satisfied :D

BTW, thanks for all the posts on this topic guys and girls! It really helped me alot!

bradley
05-01-2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by Ironman8
Well, I guess I should post how the refeed went :)

I shouldn't call it a "refeed", but a cheatday :D. It lasted 3 days, my I didn't binge on alot of junkfood. I ate a alot of cereal (with milk of course), baked chips, and some other crap.

My cutting went well also. Lost 5Ibs., and dropped down to 8% BF. All in all, I'm satisfied :D

BTW, thanks for all the posts on this topic guys and girls! It really helped me alot!

Nice to hear that the cut is going well. Have you thought about keeping a journal?

Bryan
05-01-2003, 07:48 PM
Ok now this makes ALOT of sense! I've been cutting for about 10 days now. And have probably seen the best results ever. I knew in the past that I never had enough calories, so you know how was making up for them? Adding Olive Oil in my diet, everyday and taking in 6-8g of salmon oil pills daily also. Also this is my first time doing HIIT while cutting. I get my carbs from oatmeal/wholewheat bread.

As for the fish oils, which should I be using? Salmon or Cod oil? Also how much calcium and at what time of the day would be best?

Bryan
05-01-2003, 08:53 PM
I need more fish oil caps, So I was looking around netrition and saw the NOW Fish Oil Omega-3 caps. Heres the breakdown:

Omega-3 Fatty Acids 600 mg
Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA) 360 mg
Docosahaxaenoic Acid (DHA) 240 mg

It's $4.95 for 100 1000mg caps. I might order a few bottles
:D

Severed Ties
05-01-2003, 09:14 PM
I use 6-8 grams of EPA/DHA fish oil per day along with 2 grams of calcium.


ST

Bryan
05-01-2003, 10:07 PM
One last thing ST, How should I store the olive oil?

Btw, what's your major?

bradley
05-02-2003, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Bryan
One last thing ST, How should I store the olive oil?

Btw, what's your major?

Just store it in the pantry (cool, dark place) and it should be good for at least 6 months.

Bryan
05-02-2003, 06:41 AM
It's funny that I stumbled across this thread yesterday as I was telling my friend just before that I couldnt believe or understand how I was losing so much bf so quickly. I figured it was just because I had my training/diet and supplementation in place, but I guess mysterious things were happening, things I didnt even know about until last night! :D

Ironman8
05-02-2003, 06:27 PM
Glad this thread helped you too Bryan!

AJ_11
05-03-2003, 01:31 AM
Mine, would be better if I didn't love the great taste of food:)

Bryan
05-04-2003, 02:09 PM
Whats the breakdown on your oil pills guys? The ones I just ordered are:

Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA) 360 mg
Docosahaxaenoic Acid (DHA) 240 mg

The ones I'm currently use(salmon oil pills from walmart)

Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA) 180 mg
Docosahaxaenoic Acid (DHA) 120 mg

bradley
05-04-2003, 04:25 PM
The ones I use contain 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA. I use the the GNC brand.

Bryan
05-04-2003, 07:14 PM
so when my new pills arrive I can switch my dosage from 6-8g to 3-4g daily? since the new pills have double the dha/epa

bradley
05-05-2003, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by Bryan
so when my new pills arrive I can switch my dosage from 6-8g to 3-4g daily? since the new pills have double the dha/epa

Yeah, that would be fine seeing as how each serving has 2.4g of fat.

Did you order the Super EPA by Now Foods?

Bryan
05-05-2003, 07:13 AM
Nope just regular NOW Fish oils pills. Super EPA pills are even higher dosge(distilled I believe)

Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA) 720 mg
Docosahaxaenoic Acid (DHA) 480 mg

bradley
05-05-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Bryan
Nope just regular NOW Fish oils pills. Super EPA pills are even higher dosge(distilled I believe)

Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA) 720 mg
Docosahaxaenoic Acid (DHA) 480 mg

Yeah you are right about the super EPA. The ones you ordered have 2g so yeah just take 3-4 caps:)

Bryan
05-05-2003, 09:44 AM
:D

NOW rox

Silverback
05-09-2003, 03:40 PM
Top Thread :thumbup:

Id have to agree with the cod liver oil caps for joint pain, ive been taking 2 x 1000mg caps per day only and my shoulder healed at an alarming rate compared to the recovery without.

ST ive just started a cut last week and im using the same princple as you by operating above maintenance and using activity to bring about the changes, the way i see it is if i take in more food and keep protein high, fats & carbs moderate then i should be able to maintain a lot of muscle while dropping body fat, hopefully by another week or two i should notice some improvements :) btw refeed tommorow! :D

Severed Ties
05-09-2003, 08:43 PM
Ron your going about it the right way, while the results are slower they are well worth it as your body shapeshifts rather than shrinks.

I regreat not having taken before shots because I think I could win a muscletech contest with the pictures.

My bodyfat was much higher than I originally estimated which made the change more impressive than I relized. I'm going to try and capture some of the feed from my webcam to make comparisons but since it broke I'm not sure if I will be able to access it. Which would really suck because I have over 2 years worth of progress on that thing. Dam Bill Gates to hell!!!

ohh and I refeed tomorrow as well, since I'm probably going to start reducing the fat intake of my ridiculously high carb meals I picked up a bottle of chocolate syrup which I will probably use 1/2 of in making my pancakes tomorrow instead of chocolate chips, should put the carb's around 400 grams for the meal...to hell with dbol...now THAT is the breakfast of champions!

ST

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-10-2003, 06:19 AM
Ron, what is your bodyfat % guesstimate?

I just reckon an approach like that is most fitting for 15% and below.

Above that and chances are you won't lose much, if any muscle - probably even gaining some, while hitting the mark quicker. So personally i'd say go cal deficit until you hit that level and then implementing that strategy.

Just my opinion though.

Silverback
05-10-2003, 01:36 PM
I thought it was around 18% but now after some caliper work with my training partner i would say more like 20%!

So what are you suggesting? At the moment im eating around 2500-2750 cals per day, then every 7-10 days refeeding to about 4000-5000.

So by doing this i wont lose anything? What do you recomend then? before i hit the 15% mark?

cheers

B-R

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-10-2003, 01:45 PM
No, not that won't lose anything.

I was just commenting that i think that approach would be better suited for ~15% and below, cause at higher bodyfat levels the tendancy is for fat to come off quite easy (unless you got proper Ob gene issues) and muscle to retain or gain no problem (unless you got proper myostatin gene issues).

I just think you could get to 15% quicker with a straight forward diet deficit.

And at 18-20%, there's not really a call for refeeds, unless you wanna see if you can gain some musckles from them.

Silverback
05-10-2003, 01:50 PM
how low do you think cal wise then? and should i add a cheat day?

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-10-2003, 01:57 PM
Start with bw (in lbs) x12 to begin with and go by weight (it'll be too hard to really judge changes in the mirror if your bf is that high, i reckon).

Do the standard calorie manipulation depending on how bw changes each week.

Cheat days, at that bf%, will be more for pyschological benefit than metabolic benefit.

Until you hit about 15%, your body probably won't even realise you're dieting.

Silverback
05-10-2003, 02:03 PM
Cheers Rob,

i'll have to get a pic sorted because in the mirror i dont actually look that bad, my abs can be seen quite clearly, its just my thighs and glutes!!

But i will stick with what you have suggested anyway and not bother cheating until i get down to the 14-15% mark then i will think about tweaking things, i dont think my first 10 days were wasted though as im feeling tighter as i have said previously

thanks for the input rob always appreciated

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-10-2003, 02:10 PM
You have clearly visible abs and reckon you're 20%?!

Silverback
05-10-2003, 02:32 PM
you have not seen my legs and glutes, i store bodyfat like a woman!! no offense to any females reading this but it is a proven fact :)

AJ_11
05-10-2003, 03:16 PM
I think that small refeeds would still be beneficial. Even if at 20%. I wouldn't make them cheat days but more so carb loads. Even better if they around training. Also make sure that the BF test that you did was accurate. See I tend to store alot og BF around the gut area, So If am around 12-13 my gut makes me look well above 20.

I would make them every other week to start and mark your progress.

Silverback
05-10-2003, 04:08 PM
cheers AJ, by every other week are you refering to the small refeeds or body fat testing?

My body fat imo and from what guys at the gym have told me is that im around 18% but if it wasnt for the legs i would be closer to 12% oh well such is genetics!

AJ_11
05-10-2003, 05:31 PM
I am testing, but I am not sure the accuracy of the devices. I hope that if they are wrong then at least they be consistentley wrong by the same amt each week.

My refeeds are usually clean but huge. I usually eat from 8-1000g of carbs alone. but that when I was lowered carbs except for around training. I think that I am progressively make them smaller and longer. Weight gain after a refeed goes up about 10llbs but I usually drop one pound b4 the next refeed.

Start with one every other week, also I wouldn't drop down to 12X BW right away I would drop about 250-500 cals per week starting at maintence. till you get to 12X.

Good luck w/ your cut.

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-11-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11
I think that small refeeds would still be beneficial. Even if at 20%. I wouldn't make them cheat days but more so carb loads. Even better if they around training. Also make sure that the BF test that you did was accurate. See I tend to store alot og BF around the gut area, So If am around 12-13 my gut makes me look well above 20.

I would make them every other week to start and mark your progress.


I still reckon actual "refeeds" are unnecessary at this level of bodyfat - at least for the leptin issue.

However, the glycogen issue is very much a positive issue (keeping strength and probably gaining it [and musckles]).

Therefore some sort of carb rotation would probably suit best until around the 15% mark. That is, two days low(er) carbs - about 150g/day, then two days "moderate" carbs - about 200g/day, and finally two days of "high" carbs - about 250g/day. That way you keep the glycogen levels more or less sufficient so gym performance won't suffer, and providing calories are in deficit, you'll drop fat.

And this way, you also don't (essentially) "waste" a day of potential fat burning by shutting it off from (properly) "high" carbs (i.e. refeed) when it's not completely necessary.

Severed Ties
05-11-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy



I still reckon actual "refeeds" are unnecessary at this level of bodyfat - at least for the leptin issue.

However, the glycogen issue is very much a positive issue (keeping strength and probably gaining it [and musckles]).

Therefore some sort of carb rotation would probably suit best until around the 15% mark. That is, two days low(er) carbs - about 150g/day, then two days "moderate" carbs - about 200g/day, and finally two days of "high" carbs - about 250g/day. That way you keep the glycogen levels more or less sufficient so gym performance won't suffer, and providing calories are in deficit, you'll drop fat.

And this way, you also don't (essentially) "waste" a day of potential fat burning by shutting it off from (properly) "high" carbs (i.e. refeed) when it's not completely necessary.

I'll second chiggs here as the refeeds aren't neccessary from a leptin point of view. However to ensure optimal t-3 production and to keep muscle glycogen levels topped off a high carb meal once a week with minimal fat would be a good idea. Probably best taken as your last meal for the day or during your last postworkout meal for the week.

ST

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-11-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties


However to ensure optimal t-3 production and to keep muscle glycogen levels topped off a high carb meal once a week with minimal fat would be a good idea.


ST, something i'm curious about you may be able to assist me with. Does t3 synthesis/conversion drop regardless of leptin levels (in a normal, healthy person) from lower carbs despite calorie level?

Or to put it another way, if a person is dieting from a high bf% and leptin is still floating around in sufficient quantity so the body doesn't yet "realise" that calories are being restricted, does t3 synthesis/conversion still drop?

The_Chicken_Daddy
05-11-2003, 05:54 PM
Scrap that Q - i found an answer :)

kook
05-11-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Scrap that Q - i found an answer :)
what was the answer!!?? dont hold back

Severed Ties
05-11-2003, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Scrap that Q - i found an answer :)


Well fine, be that way.:p


ST

Bryan
05-17-2003, 08:46 PM
:D

1alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 inhibits uncoupling protein 2 expression in human adipocytes.

Shi H, Norman AW, Okamura WH, Sen A, Zemel MB.

University of Tennessee, Knoxville, Tennessee 37996, USA.

We recently demonstrated that suppressing 1alpha,25-(OH)2-D3 by increasing dietary calcium decreases adipocyte intracellular Ca2+ ([Ca2+]i), stimulates lipolysis, and inhibits lipogenesis. High calcium diets also increase core temperature and white adipose tissue uncoupling protein 2 (UCP2) expression in aP2-agouti transgenic mice. Accordingly, we have evaluated the role of 1alpha,25-(OH)2-D3 in regulating human adipocyte UCP2 expression. Treatment of human adipocytes for 48 h with 1 nM 1alpha,25-(OH)2-D3 inhibited UCP2 mRNA and protein levels by 50% (P<0.002) and completely blocked isoproterenol- or fatty acid-stimulated two- to threefold increases in UCP2 expression. However, a specific agonist for the membrane vitamin D receptor (mVDR), 1alpha,25-dihydroxylumisterol3, was unable to inhibit basal, isoproterenol-stimulated, or fatty acid-stimulated UCP2 expression, whereas a specific mVDR antagonist,1beta,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, was unable to prevent the 1alpha,25-(OH)2-D3 inhibition of UCP2 expression. In contrast, nuclear vitamin D receptor (nVDR) knockout via antisense oligodeoxynucleotide (ODN) prevented the inhibitory effect of 1alpha,25-(OH)2-D3 on adipocyte UCP2 expression and protein levels. These data indicate that 1a,25-(OH)2-D3 exerts an inhibitory effect on adipocyte UCP2 expression via the nVDR. Thus, suppression of 1alpha,25-(OH)2-D3 and consequent up-regulation of UCP2 may contribute to our previous observation of increased thermogenesis in mice fed with high calcium diets.

Ironman8
05-17-2003, 08:49 PM
I'm confused :cry:

chops
06-04-2003, 10:10 AM
Hi, I am a novice - pls help.

I am female , 110, and 5-3 height .
I have always done moderate cardio before but recently switched to HIIT 4x week and strength training 2x week each for upper and lower body (for past 3 weeks now). my goals are to get a sculpted lean look with defined abs and arms, and goal weight of 105, drop body fat to about 17%.


i have been following the body for life book. i eat about 20/40/40 f/c/p for most meals, BUT <90g protein per day (usually closer to 80), about 1200 cals per day between 5-6 meals. if there is a calorie margin, i will eat a little more carbs. i get my carbs mostly from yogurt and fruit, legumes (no breads,starches). protein is from whey shakes or bars,cottage cheese, canned tuna, grilled chicken and tofu. i do not monitor my veggies.

i have the following questions:

1) I have more energy and feel stronger but I do not see a difference in appearance or weight loss. should i eat more/less, eat differently? i currently have "cheat" weekends (sat and sun only) where I allow myself treats but overall, my weekend diet remains healthy and somewhat portion controlled. for example, i might eat a muffin or go out to a restaurant a few times, but i still make choose healthier items (i.e frozen yogurt instead of ice cream).

2) BFL says to do cardio in the morning before any food is consumed and wait one hour post to eat if the goal is to burn fat, because stored body fat will be used for energy . does this rule apply to weight training as well? i find that i am fatigued easily since I dont eat beforehand, but again, I am trying to lose weight but i guess my workouts aren't as effective if i'm so tired?

3) i am consuming a TB of flaxseed per day, straight. is there a difference if i take this in the morning (6 am) or in the evening (7pm) in terms of fat storing. also if i take in the morning, should i also wait one hour post workout (refer to number 2)

thanks!

bradley
06-04-2003, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by chops
1) I have more energy and feel stronger but I do not see a difference in appearance or weight loss. should i eat more/less, eat differently? i currently have "cheat" weekends (sat and sun only) where I allow myself treats but overall, my weekend diet remains healthy and somewhat portion controlled. for example, i might eat a muffin or go out to a restaurant a few times, but i still make choose healthier items (i.e frozen yogurt instead of ice cream).

IMO I do not think that you need to drop cals any more given your curent level of activity. What do you estimate your bf% at now? If you are currently at a lower bf% then you might want to think about incorporating a small refeed once a week to help keep your metabolism up.



2) BFL says to do cardio in the morning before any food is consumed and wait one hour post to eat if the goal is to burn fat, because stored body fat will be used for energy . does this rule apply to weight training as well? i find that i am fatigued easily since I dont eat beforehand, but again, I am trying to lose weight but i guess my workouts aren't as effective if i'm so tired?


I disagree with the above statement, especially since you are performing HIIT cardio. I would recommend maybe taking in a small amount of carbs and protien before performing the HIIT session and also some carbs and protein postworkout. Basically treat the HIIT session like a workout.

There is a sticky in the training forum in regards to HIIT training. Might want to give it a look.



3) i am consuming a TB of flaxseed per day, straight. is there a difference if i take this in the morning (6 am) or in the evening (7pm) in terms of fat storing. also if i take in the morning, should i also wait one hour post workout (refer to number 2)


I would make sure that you are getting adequate amounts of EFAs in your diet. The flax oil is a good choice and it really does not matter when you take it. I personally do not take in any fat postworkout, and if it was up to me I would just take it in the evening.

I do think as far as supplemental sources of omega 3 fatty acids fish oil would be a better choice than flax.

SwimBabe
08-19-2003, 03:32 AM
If you're worried about it just have a cheat meal instead. If I'm strictly dieting I'd go insane without some cheating.

eatdirt40
08-29-2003, 10:40 PM
i didnt have the patience to read all the posts but does everyone out there suggest or not suggest to have cheat days a week to boost your metabolism.. sorry im in a rush and was just curious, b/c this would make me feel better after havin a bad day on the diet :)

SwimBabe
08-30-2003, 03:04 PM
I recommend it

bradley
08-30-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by eatdirt40
i didnt have the patience to read all the posts but does everyone out there suggest or not suggest to have cheat days a week to boost your metabolism.. sorry im in a rush and was just curious, b/c this would make me feel better after havin a bad day on the diet :)

If you are in a calorie deficit, then yes a planned refeed would be beneficial. Although this would depend on other factors such as bf%, degree of calorie deficit, etc. As a general rule if you are <15% bf then a refeed once a week would be beneficial, and if you are ~10% of lower, then you might need to refeed more often (once every 5 days or twice a week). Again these are just general guidelines and there are other factors that would come into play.

If you are in a calorie surplus (i.e. gaining/bulking) then a refeed or cheat day will not have any metabolic benefits.

WaterWalker
09-07-2003, 02:09 AM
Well guys… it is obvious that some of you are way more nutrition savvy than myself. I patiently read through the whole post, but I am very confused! ST, Borris, AJ, etc. would you kindly outline the main points here. I am very intrigued, but I need a jumping off point. Are you guys suggesting I stop counting calories? I am really trying to get a diet intact and a lot of what you guys speak makes sense. I just can’t put it all together. Thanks in advance. WW.

AJ_11
10-05-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by WaterWalker
Well guys… it is obvious that some of you are way more nutrition savvy than myself. I patiently read through the whole post, but I am very confused! ST, Borris, AJ, etc. would you kindly outline the main points here. I am very intrigued, but I need a jumping off point. Are you guys suggesting I stop counting calories? I am really trying to get a diet intact and a lot of what you guys speak makes sense. I just can’t put it all together. Thanks in advance. WW.

To some it up, having a cheat meal or refeed is meant to boost either your leptin levels(hormone that controls fat gain/loss0 or your morale. Cheat meals are mainly for morale and can the mental stress that your diet is putting on. Refeeds or Carb loads are meant top boost leptin levels basicially tell you body that your not dieting, and continue fat loss.

Refeeds generally consist of High, Low GI carbs, usually with little or no fat, and fructose(fruit), to give you as much as an insulin response so it trinck your body.

If you plateau in fat loss than it is recommended that you I either a chewat meal oir refeed. Refeed being better. Try to consume about 10% more cals in a 24h period. If you have been dieting for a long time it might just be what your body needs.

2DGYM
10-09-2003, 04:23 PM
I agreet hat one cheat day a week will not hurt yuo to much, it will in fact change your metabolism. I would use it as incentive, example being if you follow a strict diet during the week then reward yourself with a cheat day. I read that it will actually keep you motivated. Hear is a good way to do it, it seems to work for me, when I am following a strict diet, I do my best during the week to keep it to a "T", then on the weekends I will keep the diet strict on Saturday until the evening meal and then I let loose until the evening meal Sunday, this tends to make it feel like I am getting two days of cheating in. Weird?? Perhaps. Oh screw it, who am I kidding? it is weird.

Good luck

newly_buff
12-13-2003, 06:05 AM
:burger: Cheat meals/days keep you sane :drooling: and sort of jolt your body...well it does for some people. It does for me as long as I don't go frigg'in nutz. Everyone is different. You have to 'trial and error' to see what makes your body happy. Then run with it!!

AllUp
12-23-2003, 03:16 PM
Sweet thread folks. :o

Personally I've Been eating somewhat similar to how ST has explained on this same topic earlier. If I know I'm not gonna do much for a while I keep Carb intakes Complex and low In general. Currently cutting on part of Shoulder,Back, and Ab days and Loading on chest-day into backday. I must say since the refeeds the results have been nothing short of Superb.

My w/o spotter actually thought I was juicing because im progressing faster than him, but He works out while starving almost.. BTW he has no load day. :/

To sum it up Have a load day and you'll be amazed. As long as your eating clean through the week it should be ok.

Also it seems as though when you don't refeed, your body adapts to taking in that X amount of calories and performs sub-optimally(i.e mediocre fat burning, gimpy lifts, etc.). Just an personal observation.


Oh, And im bored so.. Here we go..

Also a Daily Supplementation breakdown.(not including whole foods)..

cals 1k
cals from fat 100
fat 12
sat fat 6
cholesterol 60mg
carbs 68 (8fiber, 12 sugar)
protein 160g
beta carotene/vitaminA 360%DV
vitC 240mg
vitD 960iu
VitE 180iu (600%)
vitK 160mcg
Thiamin 3.6mg
Riboflavin 4.08 mg
Niacin 80mg
vitB6 4.8mg
FolicAcid 1600mcg
VitB12 12mcg
Biotin 720mcg
Pantothenic acid 16mg
Calcium 4g (400%dv)
Iron 32mg
Phosphorus 3600mg (360%dv)
Iodine 240mcg
magnesium 800mg (200%dv)
zinc 24mg
Selenium 112mcg
Copper 3.2mg
Maganese 4mg
Chromium 192mcg
Chloride about 1300
Potassium <=4g

Note: the above is taken over a 24hour span and usually taken in 4-5 doses to equal the amount above via MRP or individual supplements, Cutting tablets in half, ETC.

Also I intake 5-7g EFA's Via Fish Oil Caplets

Average daily diet on a normal day may look like this:

Breakfast: Protein Shake with WWtoast & Natty PB Prior.
2-3h later: CAn O' Tuna out of the can w/1pc of WW toast
lunch:Granola/Oat bar followed 10m later by a MRP
3h later:1 Cup of wheaties dry followed by protein shake or Can o Tuna
5:00: Small spoon of PB followed by a MRP
W/O: for 2h: ends at 7:00. 1h40m anaerobic followed by 20m cardio
7:45: 2slice Oatmeal or WW toast followed by a mrp
10:00 MRP before bed.

Estimated protein intake is estimated at about 220-240g a day. Currently I'm about 239lbs.
Currently thats working well for me. But if anyone has anything to throw in/suggest please critique. :)
-AllUp

Silverback
12-23-2003, 04:01 PM
Looks like you've got everything down tight, the only thing i would be inclined to change is ww toast for oats or potatos. Maybe a little less supplementation unless your hunger levels alright.

What about body fat % @ 239lbs your RMR must be pretty jacked, espeically if you have some decent mass on board the ship

AllUp
12-29-2003, 09:03 AM
Looks like you've got everything down tight, the only thing i would be inclined to change is ww toast for oats or potatos. Maybe a little less supplementation unless your hunger levels alright.

What about body fat % @ 239lbs your RMR must be pretty jacked, espeically if you have some decent mass on board the ship


Thx for the advice.

I will Probably replace WW w/dry oatmeal. Unfortunately, I believe Oatmeal is a acquired taste that I don't have *yet*. Tried it mushy and it tasted like dirt unless I put some type of sweetener, so I steered clear. I may try makin like an oatmeal sandwich w/Natty PB or something.

Also at the moment I don't gain weight unless it's water or a load day, so things have definitely improved since I started eating cleaner and incorporating a load day. :burger: = :strong:

RicPhoenix
02-14-2004, 04:06 PM
Do you find it takes several days to drop fluid and get back to your original weight after you have had a 'cheat' day? Do you think that effects your fat lose because of the body having to focus on redistributing and converting carbs and other nutrients instead of continual fat burning?

Silverback
02-14-2004, 04:51 PM
[QUOTE=RicPhoenix]Do you find it takes several days to drop fluid and get back to your original weight after you have had a 'cheat' day? Do you think that effects your fat lose because of the body having to focus on redistributing and converting carbs and other nutrients instead of continual fat burning?



that is a good question, although weight has little significance to me when cutting, especially water weight. Cheat day/refeed day(s) are something that ought to be intergrated into a cutting plan especially if in the sub 15% body fat region. Not only for the pyschological benefits but also the metabolic/hormonal changes that occur allowing RMR to rise allowing for fat loss to run smootly instead of plateauing.

btw is that your site? if the preview is true, then it could be a very interesting prospect

Ironman8
04-02-2004, 07:11 PM
Hey, did you notice this topic's birthday was yesterday :D

RicPhoenix
04-04-2004, 03:26 PM
I have cheat days, 'off nutrition' when I am dieting. I usually try to set them up so they are after 5 days of following a nutrition program. I have found that the amount of water gained during the 'off nutrition' period is about 2-4kg and it takes 2-3 days to return to the original body weight and look you had before the 'off nutrition' period.

I am concerned about water in that I think that the time used to drop fluid may effect bodyfat loss and when you are only a few weeks out from a contest....every day counts. I do agree the 'cheat' makes one feel rewarded or more satisfied but the water gain and new look may not. Have there been any studies to show that 'cheats' actually stimulate metabolism? If so, after what period and how extreme were the diets? What do you think?

J-Man
07-23-2004, 01:24 AM
I don't have a cheat day every weekend but I do have a cheat meal based on the holidays and my birthday.

For instance I have a cheat meal on new years eve and new years day, easter, mother and fathers day, july 4th, my birthday, memorial and labor day, valentines, thanksgiving, christmas eve and christmas day, and the superbowl where it's a god given duty for a man to load up on chilli and brew.

That is 14 days with a cheat meal out of 365 days a year. Hardly enough to hinder anyone's progress.

nejar462
08-04-2004, 11:44 AM
When we used to wrestle my coach said that if you have time to do it you should really eat a hefty amount once in a while to keep your metabolism high.

Of course that doesn't mean eat a pound in twinkies, but eat a lot of food higher in fat and carbs than you're normally used too.

Lgoosey
09-26-2004, 07:00 AM
Well I'm not counting my calories but if I had to eyeball it my average daily caloric is about 750 over what I usually cut bodyfat at, however I'm burning fat at a higher rate than usual as well.

...As well as all this talk about "being above maintenance every day" and still losing fat is completely ridiculous. I don't even know where to begin.

Here's an idea:

www.pubmed.com

See for yourself and stop listening to this missinformation.

galileo
09-26-2004, 12:00 PM
...As well as all this talk about "being above maintenance every day" and still losing fat is completely ridiculous. I don't even know where to begin.

Here's an idea:

www.pubmed.com

See for yourself and stop listening to this missinformation.

Nice to see ya, goosey. Avant getting too boring?

madwolf25
02-10-2005, 10:46 PM
My weekly caloric intake is gonna be around 2000. Should I still have cheatdays on the weekend? I heard this will kick up my metabolism, but will it also hinder the results. Thanks in advance.



I'd definately say more like one MEAL per week as opposed to one whole day per week especially if you're cutting .... just my opinion through experience hope this helps

gino
02-11-2005, 08:11 AM
I used to do an entire day of cheatfood eating. My roommate and I called it "power sunday" during which, we'd consume about 6000-7000 calories. The rest of the week it was strict dieting. Monday and tuesday would always be the days I would be starving the most, so I know it definitely sped-up the metabolism significantly. I always liked that approach while cutting.

spanky33
03-10-2005, 04:24 PM
I'm about 5'7" 135, 11% fat.
i started cheating about 5 weeks ago on the weekend.
My body fat went from 8% to 11% in 6 weeks.
I think i'm cheating wrong??
And yes, my diet is strict during the week.

HalleluYAH
03-23-2005, 11:09 AM
Actually I'm dieting but my experiments with macro manipulation are far exceeding my expectations.

Tell us more!!! :idea:

Severed Ties
03-23-2005, 11:32 AM
Tell us more!!! :idea:

This is an old thread but when I finished my contest prep last year my skin caliper was under 3.0% bodyfat. This year with the extra LBM I'm carrying dieting went much better but you'd have to check my journal for the details.

You may also want to read John Berardi's articles on macronutrient seperations.

ST

danlifter
04-30-2005, 06:59 PM
Im trying to gain weight and i dont have cheat days at all, because i think it will hurt my progress.

Beast
05-24-2005, 11:34 PM
I think a large binge/cheat meal is very important for those that are dieting. It has worked great for me. Definitely boosts your metabolism. Plus after all of those carbs the veins on my obliques really come out!

the doc
03-10-2007, 01:32 PM
bump... one of our best diet threads we've had