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View Full Version : I've 'searched' all i can...is it possible to gain muscle/loose fat at same time?



cantspell
04-02-2003, 05:19 PM
Hello there
I've actully worked out for about 8 years now, and recently (well last three years) i've started to rest the required amount and stay away from sweets and really fatty foods (fast foods) and up my protien intake.

I'm fairly knowledgable about diets, so i know how to loose wight, but is it at all possible to gain muscle and lower one's fat percentage at the same time?

I was under the impression that a Keto diet would allow this, as your protien intake is up, and you caloric intake isn't really affected, but i'm just confused after reading everything...so...if there's even a relatively concise answer and explanation, pls let me in on it!
Thanks
Matt.

Ironman8
04-02-2003, 06:06 PM
Are you planning to do cardio? If you are, you will lose some muscle. It is very hard to keep muscle and lose fat at the same time, but not impossible.

aka23
04-02-2003, 06:49 PM
It is fairly common for untrained/overweight persons to gain muscle and lose fat. The page at http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss.html has links to a number of studies with overweight persons and different types of diet and exercise. The full results are below:

Weight Training 8 weeks: Gained 1kg muscle, lost .7kg fat
Weight Training with calorie deficit: Gained .4kg muscle, lost 4.3kg fat
Exercise 16 weeks: Gained 2lb muscle, lost 12.6lb fat
Exercise 16 weeks with calorie deficit: Gained 1lb muscle, lost 13lb fat
Cardio 8 weeks: Lost .5lb muscle, lost 3 lb fat
Cardio+weights 8 weeks: Gained 2lb muscle, lost 10lb fat

Studies of HIIT with healthy persons who are new to exercising (such as the Tremblay study) yield similar results. Both the HIIT and traditional cardio groups often gain muscle and lose fat. The traditional cardio group usually gains only a small bit of muscle, while the HIIT group often loses greater amounts of fat and gains greater amounts of muscle.

Having said that, it sounds like you have been training a long time. If you have reached a point where you find it difficult to gain muscle or lose fat, then it will probably be very difficult to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. I do not think a ketosis diet would help you gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. If anything it would hinder the process, since the low glycogen levels may interfere with the exercise sessions. I would suggest a balanced diet and setting calories near maintenence levels. It is important to note that you are likely to gain muscle or lose fat at a faster rate if you focus on one activity or the other and set calories accordingly. This is especially true if you have been training a long time and find it difficult to make improvements.


Are you planning to do cardio? If you are, you will lose some muscle.

I think the muscle burning during cardio is rarely significant unless the cardio is done for at high intensity for long durations or for shorter durations when glycogen levels are low. If you are untrained, you may gain a small amount of muscle by doing cardio. This is especially true for HIIT. Losing muscle is usually more related to good sized caloric deficits and/or not training those muscles.

tryingtobebig
04-02-2003, 07:18 PM
If you're in a caloric deficit, I don't know if it will matter how much protein you have (although it will help limit muscle loss.) However, generally if you want to put on muscle, you need excess calories, and if you want to lose fat, you need a deficit.

cantspell
04-02-2003, 07:23 PM
Hi, thanks for the response.
I have been trainning for quite a while, and i do cardio, however I"m not sure if running for 10 - 15min at a fast pace is more traditional Cardio or more HIIT...never the less, i do cardio.
I have found it very difficult to make any gains in the last year or two.

The result then, is that I have to decide what my goals are and then work/eat/train towards them - correct?
Also, am i correct to assume that if i run, and eat enough pre and post carbs, i shall not loose any muscle?
oh, and if i'm in a cutting phase, is it safe, efficient to work out (either wieghts or cardio)when i have low glycogen levels. Will this inhibit my weight loss?
I know these questions are scatered, thanks for the patience.
Matt.

Ironman8
04-02-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by cantspell
Hi, thanks for the response.
I have been trainning for quite a while, and i do cardio, however I"m not sure if running for 10 - 15min at a fast pace is more traditional Cardio or more HIIT...never the less, i do cardio.
I have found it very difficult to make any gains in the last year or two.

The result then, is that I have to decide what my goals are and then work/eat/train towards them - correct?
Also, am i correct to assume that if i run, and eat enough pre and post carbs, i shall not loose any muscle?
oh, and if i'm in a cutting phase, is it safe, efficient to work out (either wieghts or cardio)when i have low glycogen levels. Will this inhibit my weight loss?
I know these questions are scatered, thanks for the patience.
Matt.

Looks like you got it down alright. If you eat pre post carbs before running, there is no guarantee it won't use muscle building protein as energy.

If you lift when glycogen levels are low, you'll get better results, IMO. But when you run when glycogen levels are low, as I said, it'll go straight for the fat and protein for energy.

bradley
04-03-2003, 02:49 AM
If you lift when glycogen levels are low, you'll get better results, IMO. But when you run when glycogen levels are low, as I said, it'll go straight for the fat and protein for energy.

If you lift when glycogen levels are low, your performance in the gym will most likely suffer to some degree. Moderate intensity cardio will be fine and should not cause LBM losses if done at a moderate intensity and moderate duration.

bradley
04-03-2003, 02:59 AM
I have been trainning for quite a while, and i do cardio, however I"m not sure if running for 10 - 15min at a fast pace is more traditional Cardio or more HIIT...never the less, i do cardio.

For more information on HIIT there is a sitcky in the training forum.


The result then, is that I have to decide what my goals are and then work/eat/train towards them - correct

Yes, concentrating on losing fat or gaining muscle would be your best bet and would yield better results IMO.


Also, am i correct to assume that if i run, and eat enough pre and post carbs, i shall not loose any muscle?
oh, and if i'm in a cutting phase, is it safe, efficient to work out (either wieghts or cardio)when i have low glycogen levels. Will this inhibit my weight loss?

Losing weight at a slow rate by creating a small caloric deficit will be the best way to make sure that you minimize LBM losses. You can create a caloric deficit through diet, cardio, or a combination of both.

I would make sure to eat carbs around your training to allow for optimal recovery. As far as cardio goes it would depend on what type of cardio you were performing.

bradley
04-03-2003, 03:02 AM
I was under the impression that a Keto diet would allow this, as your protien intake is up, and you caloric intake isn't really affected, but i'm just confused after reading everything...so...if there's even a relatively concise answer and explanation, pls let me in on it!

You are still in a caloric deficit even when performing a ketogenic diet, so your caloric intake would be affected. A keto diet is more than likely not going to allow you to burn fat and build muscle at the same time.

Ironman8
04-03-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by bradley
I would make sure to eat carbs around your training to allow for optimal recovery.

Especially high GI carbs.

aka23
04-03-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by cantspell
Hi, thanks for the response.
I have been trainning for quite a while, and i do cardio, however I"m not sure if running for 10 - 15min at a fast pace is more traditional Cardio or more HIIT...never the less, i do cardio.

10-15 minutes at a fast pace is closer to traditional cardio than HIIT. HIIT stands for High Intensity Interval Training. It means training at a level such that lactate accumulates for an interval, slowing down so that the body can recover, then repeating. The process focuses on the anaerobic (technically it is more correct to say oxygen-independent) gylcosis and phosphocreatine systems, not aeroboic (oxygen-dependent) systems like traditional cardio. Phosphocreatine contribution becomes quite low after six seconds, and aerobic systems tend to dominate after a couple minutes. If you can continue more than a couple minutes, then the pace is probably too slow for HIIT.


Originally posted by cantspell
The result then, is that I have to decide what my goals are and then work/eat/train towards them - correct?
Also, am i correct to assume that if i run, and eat enough pre and post carbs, i shall not loose any muscle?

Deciding on your goals, then setting diet and training accordingly sounds like a good start. You are correct that you are unlikely to burn significant quantities of muscle during the running so long as the running is not done in conditions where gylcogen levels are very low. Your 10-15 minutes should be fine. You may still lose muscle at other times for reasons such as not training the muscles, having a calorie intake well below maintenance, or fasting.


Originally posted by cantspell
oh, and if i'm in a cutting phase, is it safe, efficient to work out (either wieghts or cardio)when i have low glycogen levels. Will this inhibit my weight loss?
I know these questions are scatered, thanks for the patience.
Matt.

Low glycogen levels may interfere with all forms of exercise. It is the primary fuel in short bursty type exercises such as weightlifting and HIIT, so you may not be able to perform as well in these activities and may feel fatigued earlier. The majority of fuel comes from fat during traditional cardio, but at higher intensities a good portion comes from glycogen as well. When traditional cardio is done at high intensity for a good-sized duration, it often uses more gylcogen than activities which are primarily glycogen fuled like weights and HIIT. If you do traditional cardio with low glycogen levels, you are likely to become fatigued earlier and feel like you need to stop at an earlier time. If the lower levels results in you reducing activity and effects caloric balance, then it may interfere with the weight loss. It is also useful to note that during periods of low gylcogen levels, the body is more likely to use fat as fuel than in periods with higher levels.

Severed Ties
04-03-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by cantspell

I'm fairly knowledgable about diets, so i know how to loose wight, but is it at all possible to gain muscle and lower one's fat percentage at the same time?


Absolutely, muscular growth and fat energy utilization occur on independent metabolic pathways. So it is possible to activate both pathways with the proper manipulations.


ST

Blood&Iron
04-03-2003, 08:22 PM
The only way I can think that you might be able to loose fat requires liposuction and a catapult.

Severed Ties
04-03-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron
The only way I can think that you might be able to loose fat requires liposuction and a catapult.

LOL...



ST

liquidnova
04-12-2003, 09:44 AM
Theoretically, the only way to gain muscle mass, you need to:
1) workout (strength training) to encourage hypertrophy
2) have adequate nutrition to support the hypertrophy or muscle growth

To lose fat, you need to:
1) cut down the calories; OR/AND
2) increase your metab
3) force you body to preferentially burn fat

From the above, it's obvious that diet affects both in an adversarial manner. As such, the most effective way of losing fat is by increasing your metab.

Metab rate is increased when:
1) you have more lean muscles than fat (tt's the rationale for working out - so working out, in a way, kills 2 birds with one stone)
2) you encourage your body to go on overdrive for a LIMITED PERIOD of time - and this is usually done by taking ECA stack or thyroid stimulators, or whatever metab enhancers you have out there

your body can preferentially burn fat by:
1) doing cardio (>15-20 mins of moderate activity ie HR in 70-85% zone)
2) enhancing the body's capacity to utilise fat - supplementation eg carnitine)

So, in the end, there's no one way of doing it, but combining a few methods. Of course, the list I gave above is not exhaustive. It has to be borne in mind that losing fat or gaining lean mass takes time and doesn't happen overnight. Expect at least 8-12 weeks of consistent training and proper/adequate nutrition, plus supplementation before results become noticeable. Oh, and by the way, losing more than 10% bodyweight in a month is not healthy, especially for women.

Cheers...