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Joe Black
08-05-2001, 02:08 AM
OK I want to be lean for Nov 10th..

Now I am no Yaz he he ;) I donlt wanna be at like 6% or anything... 10-12% would be excellent considering I am at 18% -20% ish now..

I am about 195 - 200 lb's...

So lets say I am 195 at 18%

Thats 35 lb's of fat right ?

So to get down to 10% without losing ANY muscle I would finish at 179 ?? Thats right, right ? :)

Although realistically I would be below that as dropping fro 18% to 10% in 10 weeks, I am gonna lose some muscle for sure..

Anyway here was my bulking diet @ 3365 Calories..

I would like your ideas on..

a)What food sources to cut and add?

b)what to drop my calories down to per week over the 10 week period? Also how to manipulate protein fat and carb sources.

c)any other ideas that can help me reach my goal

Thanks a lot..




Meal 1: (08:00)

6 eggs (2 whole/4 whites only)
1 slice of wheat (wholemeal, granary)
70 grams of Oats
1000 mgs of Vitamin c

Protein: 37 g
Carbs: 60 g
Fat: 19 g

Total Calories : 559

Meal 2: (10:30)

2 slices of wheat and 100 grmans of roast beef.


Meal 3: (1:00)

150 grams of lean chicken/turkey
65 grams of Oats
20 grams of peanuts
Vegetables

Protein: 47 g
Carbs: 43 g
Fat: 16 g

Total Calories : 504


Meal 4: (3:30)

SAME AS MEAL 3


Meal 5 : (6:30)

SAME AS MEAL 3


Meal 6: (8:30) (Post workout)

2 large bananas
2 scoops of Prolab 100% Whey
1000 mgs of Vitamin c

Protein: 44 g
Carbs: 62 g
Fat 4 g

Total Calories: 460


Meal 7 : (9:30)


150 grams of lean chicken/Turkey
20 grams of Oats
2 teaspoons of Flax oil

Protein: 37 g
Carbs: 12 g
Fat 12 g

Total Calories : 349

Meal 8 : (11:00)

1 Scoop of Polab 100% Whey
I teaspoon of flax
Protein : 22 g
Carbs 6 g
Fat 7 g

Total Calories : 130



Total Day Amounts (once I have sorted out meal 2)

Protein = 300 g
Carbs = 300 g
Fat = 109 g

Total Calories = 3365

Wizard
08-05-2001, 05:07 AM
a)and b)
Fat sources

Meal 1:The source is ok.But if you are cutting,you should restrict the intake to ~15grams.
Meal 2:The source is unavailable.Add at least a teaspoon of flaxseed.
Meals 3,4,5:Add 1 tbsp of flaxseed and drop the peanuts,at least in one of the three meals.In meal 6,reduce the amount of fat under 10grams,as it's the preworkout meal and you don't want to have high lipid levels.Carbs over protein ratio should be 1/1 here,so it's ok.
Meal 6(postworkout):When cutting,it's not essential to go for a high insulin spike after workout.You could add a teaspoon of flaxseed.
Meal 7: ok
Meal 8: ok


Carb sources

Meal 1: Drop the slice of wheat and keep the oats.
Meal 2:The amount of carbs is ok but the source could be better.Have a sweetpotatoe(or half of it,depending on the amount of carbs) instead of the wheat.
Meals 3,4,5:The source and amount of carbs is sufficient.It's Ok.
Meal 6: tuttut Have less than 50grams,from a complex carbs source.A potato or anything else with lower Gi would fit better here.It's useless to have fructose postworkout.
Meal 7:Ok.
Meal 8:Ok.


Protein sources

Meal 1:Very good
Meal 2:Some poeple may suggest you to drop the roast beef,but what I strongly believe,is that 1 serving of beef per day,not only is going to make the process of cutting more difficult but conversely,it's going to aid on it.
Meals 3,4,5:Ok.If the tryptophan in the turkey doesn't cause you somnolence,go for it.Eitherway,prefer the chicken.
Meal 6:The ideal source.
Meal 7:OK
Meal 8: tuttut No w(h)ey!Casein would be the prefect choice here,so that would be low fat cottage cheese.(although it's high in sodium)

Also:Drop ~300calories every week,until you notice that you are loosing some muscle mass along with the fat.

c)

Add a source of soluble fiber to stabilize blood sugar levels.(appart from the fiber coming from the food sources as oats)
Try to sleep for at least 8 hours per night.
Add a thermogenic supplement.(Eca).20mg ephedrine in the morning and 20mg preworkout.
Add a supplement with gum guggle extract.(guggulsterones).
Have cardio 3times per week,30-45min,low-medium intensity,first thing in the morning if you can.(not in the workout days)
Drink at least 1gallon of water per day but not at the same time with meals to avoid bloating.
Have a cheat meal per week.
Have discipline and good luck!

That's it.

Yaz
08-05-2001, 02:33 PM
Cloughie I'm going to kick your communist ass.

Wizard
08-05-2001, 02:57 PM
tuttut

Cackerot69
08-05-2001, 04:17 PM
Sorry cloughface, but I'm too lazy to go through it all.

Overall it looks it good, but I'd up the protein 50-100g and drop the carbs 50-100g, and also drop the fat down to about 70...but that's just little old me.

Yaz
08-05-2001, 05:32 PM
"Also: Drop ~300calories every week,until you notice that you are loosing some muscle mass along with the fat."

- Say what? :eek: I used a 500/wk. calorie drop, and noticed no real problems with that. You just need to experiment with yourself. I went 500, and dropped 2 lbs in a week. None of which was muscle, so far as my lifts were concerned. Hulk if 300 eases your soul about retaining muscle, then go for it. Either way is really fine if you monitor it closely. I got myself down to 2300, then I started to gradually lower the amount I was taking out per week... (200, 100, 100, 100...)

- Bananas will get a rise out of insulin levels, but it's not a prime choice, especially while 'cutting'. If anything, have the piece of fruit before workout to kill some lethargy. Half a baked potato, a slice of white bread, whatever. Honestly I noticed no loss of muscle even while using a low GI carb post workout. FTR - I switched to 1/2 cup Oats.

- I agree 600% about the fiber. Get some in every meal, regardless of whether it's oats, or veggies. I like carrots and green beans myself. You will be amazed at what it does for your hunger pangs if you make it a point to get some at every sitting. This includes evening. Fiber is your friiiiiiend.

- DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT eat turkey early in the day. So again I'm agreeing with Alpha there.

- The beef ---> Tuna. Nuff said.

- The sodium in the cottage cheese late at night is nothing to worry about. You're going to wake up in the morning glycogen and water depleted as it is. So who's going to notice? Only time I'd even think twice about dairy late at night is if I were about to get up on the good foot and do the bad thing. ;)

- Taper out active carbs in your last two meals. If it's dropping your calories too low, then you need to add another teaspoon of flax. Celery at evening = Muy bien.

- As a mental warning, I would not actually expect to lose anything but water weight for the first week, week and a half. I've never, EVER lost any fat right off. Others may testify differently, but I know a few competitors who will tell you the same thing. It's your body taking the easy way out. Another OPINION of mine, is that it is not a wise thing to cheat within the first two weeks of cutting up, as you are just plunging more glycogen and water into your body, and it's going to stall the process even more. May sound stupid, but it worked for me.

Wasn't quite as in depth as Alpha's reply, but he hit on a lot I would have said anyway. I just mentioned a few I felt were vital, and a couple I disagreed with.

Hercules
08-06-2001, 12:35 AM
do as our good friend paul did or maybe still doing. do the lyle mcdonald keto diet. i heard it was good for loosing fat while minimizing muscle loss. i'm tryin the greenwich diet now, it's been one week thus far and i have'nt treated. i feel soo goood, lol. well, that's my opinion, just mainly find something you will stick with and take some clen.;)

Wizard
08-06-2001, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by Yaz
"Also: Drop ~300calories every week,until you notice that you are loosing some muscle mass along with the fat."

- Say what? :eek: I used a 500/wk. calorie drop, and noticed no real problems with that. You just need to experiment with yourself. I went 500, and dropped 2 lbs in a week. None of which was muscle, so far as my lifts were concerned. Hulk if 300 eases your soul about retaining muscle, then go for it. Either way is really fine if you monitor it closely. I got myself down to 2300, then I started to gradually lower the amount I was taking out per week... (200, 100, 100, 100...)

It's not the same thing Yaz.I think that you were under a keto diet which is a far more anticatabolic diet than any diet you could follow.So,a 300 calories-reduction would be better to ensure that he doesn't loose any muscle mass.
As for the cheat meal,it's not essential,and that's why I told him to have a cheat meal and no a cheat day and it always depends on the mental state of everyone.

Cackerot69
08-06-2001, 03:04 AM
Ok doughie, I'm feeling a little less lazy now...

a)What food sources to cut and add?

Well the sources are ok, but for cutting I don't like the ratio's. Like I told you on msn, go with 50% protein, 35% carbs and 15% fat...best way to go IMO. So, in case you're a fooking idiot in basic math, that is 375g of protein, 260-265g of carbs and 50g of fat.

b)what to drop my calories down to per week over the 10 week period? Also how to manipulate protein fat and carb sources.

I would drop 300/week until I got to 2500 then drop 200/week down to 2000 and by that time you should be a ripped mofo...if you aren't then you fooked something up. As for manipulating ratio's, you shouldn't have to with a 50/35/15 split and progressively dropping cals. You could consider things such as nutrient timing and insulin spike and all that fun stuff, but in the end it probably won't mean much. But for now I'd just advise to split 50% carbs between breakfast and post-workout and the other 50% among the remaining 6 meals. The banana's suck post workout as blacky said (due to fructose preferntailly saturated liver glyco), so switch them up with someothing glucose-based, like a bagel, bread, or whatever...so long it ain't dairy or fruit and you should be good. I also noticed the carb tapering BS, which is well BS, do it if it makes you feel better but it's BS...oh btw, carb tapering is BS. The whey is crappy pre-bedtime, throw is casien like blacky said...cottage cheese does the trick if you don't mind eating fooking milk curds.

c)any other ideas that can help me reach my goal

Uh, throw in an ECA along with some green tea (hahaha), along with creatine and multivitamin (where the fook is your miltivitamin cloughface?!) and perhaps some interval training 2-3x per week with 30/30 intervals for 10-15 minutes...blacky's low intensity suggestion sucks cuz low intensity = ineffeicent...takes 5 years to burn significant cals. Make sure to hold you tea with a slight bend in the wrist with only your pointer finger and thumb...you have to "slurp" it too...you can't just drink it...for further benefits you should set up lil' dolls and have a tea party with them.

Do that and you'll be a ripped mofo, unless of course you fook it up...i.e deciding 2 weeks from now that you should bulk or whatever which you seem to be so very fond of doing ;)

Joe Black
08-06-2001, 05:00 AM
OK thanks guys... You're really helping me here :)

FireMedic: I looked into ckd/tkd and in the end decided against it.. I feel I would be more consistent on a iso diet as apposed to a McDonald type.. Also I am not sure if I could hack a tkd/ckd for any amount of time lol...

As for Cack, Alpha and Yaz thanks for your comments...

I decided to take Cacks's advice on the 50/35/15 idea... I will stick with this..

OK I am gonna be a geek and work out all my weeks so I plan this thoroughly... A few more q's on the dropping of calories over the 12 weeks......



Week 1 Monday 13th Aug - Sun 19th Aug (3000)
Week 2 Monday 20th Aug - Sun 26th Aug (2750)
Week 3 Monday 27th Aug - Sun 2nd Sept (2500)
Week 4 Monday 3rd Sept - Sun 9th Sept (2300)
Week 5 Monday 10th Sept - Sun 16th Sept (2150)
Week 6 Monday 17th Sept - Sun 23rd Sept (2000)
Week 7 Monday 24th Sept - Sun 30th Sept
Week 8 Monday 1st Oct - Sun 7th Oct
Week 9 Monday 8th Oct - Sun 14th Oct
Week 10 Monday 15th Oct - Sun 21st Oct
Week 11 Monday 22nd Oct - Sun 28th Oct
Week 12 Monday 29th Oct - Sun 4th Nov


OK see I hit 200 at week 6? half way through ?

Would it be best to do this and say evaluate and stay around that for the next 6 or drop them in smaller portions so I hit 2000 at about week 9/10?

Remember I have a low metabolism so I reckon 2000 is fine maybe 1800... Again I will have to evaluate I know but whats best dropping slower or as I have show here.?

Also HOW should I drop the calories ? Through fat and carbs? How much of each in %'s roughly etc? Seeing as the fat is laready loe perhaps just drop them by carbs ?


Right now onto the number of meals...

whatddya think.? 6,7,8 ?

Heres what it would look like on 6, doing the 50% of carbs at breakfast and post workout...



6 meals

Post Workout and Breakfast: (Meals 1 + 5)

62 g Protein
65 g Carbs
8 g fat

Calories: 580

Rest of meals (Meals 2,3,4 and 6)

62 g Protein
33 g Carbs
8 g fat

Calories: 452

Total Calories : 2968




8 meals

Post Workout and Breakfast: (Meals 1 + 6)

47 g Protein
65 g Carbs
6 g fat

Calories: 502

Rest of meals (Meals 2,3,4,5,7 and 8)

47 g Protein
21 g Carbs
6 g fat

Calories: 326

Total Calories : 2960


Once I have my numbers all set and a plan for the 12 weeks I will tkae your advice on food sources and come up wth a more detailed diet..

Again thanks for all of your advice :)

Yaz
08-06-2001, 05:04 AM
Alpha, there was no need to taper off calories entering ketosis for me. It was when I went isocaloric that I needed to do so.

I don't see why 500 is anything extreme, especially where he is now. If anything, he can lower is 250 per half of the week. At 2000-2200 calories, I very much doubt that with a solid diet he will lose any mass.

Paul Stagg
08-06-2001, 07:41 AM
Good info.

Just keep the basics in mind..

Personally, I'd eat more fat and less carbs, but you should experiment with what you like.

The MOST important factors are calorie intake and protein intake.

Joe Black
08-06-2001, 09:27 AM
OK my main prob is when to drop and how much, considering I need to lose a fair bit in 12 weeks..

For eg my bullking cycle is ending on 3300 just about maintaining 195-200 lb's.. So what do you think would be the lowest amount to go down to? All this 300 - 500 a week will have me at 2000 on week 3 !!!!! So how about this..

For the first 6 weeks drop 200 a week... The for the next 4 drop 100... Of course say on week 6 I am dropping a lot on 2100 I won't drop for a coupla weeks untill I stall, I am just trying to plan ahead...

So.. coming from 3300 cals..

Week 1 3100
Week 2 2900
Week 3 2700
Week 4 2500
Week 5 2300
Week 6 2100
Week 7 2000
Week 8 1900
Week 9 1800
Week 10 1700
Week 11 1700
Week 12 1700

Yaz
08-06-2001, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Paul Stagg

Personally, I'd eat more fat and less carbs...


Money.

the doc
08-06-2001, 10:18 AM
I like paul's idea of more good fat (fish, nuts, olives, etc.) and less carbs. hulk why not try a "zone" type diet 30/30/30. Insulin spikes are kept to a minimum and should help to reduce fat.

concentrate the carbs post workout when they are needed most.

No carbs before your workout- this is antagonistic to hGH release from your workout (this is a very powerful lypolyotic {fat burning} hormone). Keep up those 20 rep squats, you should get a huge hGH release from those. After your workout, have a protein/flax shake then some moderate gi carbs a little later.

Modify your workouts if you need to up the reps a bit to feel the lactic acid burn- lactate encourages the production of hGH and will help with fat burning.

Tryska
08-06-2001, 10:19 AM
I'm gonna have to agree with paul, and yaz and doc too....

i'm doing an isocaloric at the moment.....and it's working well.

Joe Black
08-06-2001, 10:28 AM
Doc, no carbs immediately post workout ?

Yaz
08-06-2001, 10:45 AM
I'm on an isometric diet right now, doc ... for when I hit the dinitrophenol.

Feeling ok. A little hungry, but nothing too awful. I guess like anything it takes some getting used to. I dunno doc's reasoning behind it (I guess it has something to do with the hGH and lactic buildup?) - Me personally I would eat something carby right after weight training, but after cardio I would wait a little.

I suggested more fats initially, but I'm not huge and strong so it was wrong. :angel:
... Or at least that is what someone said.

the doc
08-06-2001, 10:54 AM
hulk just wait a little while, say an hour or two. An insulin spike immediately post workout is great for bulking, but i feel it is counterproductive to cutting. Your still in a "fat-burning"state then and an insulin spike would kill any fat burning effects.

I rarely if ever take hi gi carbs postworkout anymore, but i am cycling macros so i am a different story.

Tryska
08-06-2001, 10:56 AM
btw - heard on the news this morning that lifting weights actually spikes your metabolism for about 90 minutes post-workout. (3 times more than cardio). might want to figure that in to when you take oyur carbs as well, if you follow doc's suggestion.

Cackerot69
08-06-2001, 02:43 PM
Bah.

"I like paul's idea of more good fat (fish, nuts, olives, etc.) and less carbs. hulk why not try a "zone" type diet 30/30/30. Insulin spikes are kept to a minimum and should help to reduce fat."

Besides the fact that 30/30/30 only = 90%, I don't like how low the protein is and how high the fat is. I think people are getting carried away with this insulin spike crap and forgetting the two most important aspects to a successful diet - protein intake a calorie intake, as Paul said. You'd be better off getting the long list of benefits from a very high protein diet than the slighlt benefit of less insulin secretion from the higher fat intake...and protein has the same effect as fat in that regard anyhow.

"Modify your workouts if you need to up the reps a bit to feel the lactic acid burn- lactate encourages the production of hGH and will help with fat burning."

Well, yeah...but it would be at the expense of maintaining muscle (depending how high you go)...which ain't too good.

Anyway, plan B looks perfecto cloughface.

Joe Black
08-06-2001, 02:55 PM
ok now I am thinking..

The 8 meal plan.... 50/35/15..... I can mess about with the fat and protein some.. :)

Dropping cal's by 200 for the first 2/3 weeks....

Then if I am dropping leave alone.. If not drop by 200/100 depending on how I feel..

Obviously the 12 weeks plan was just a plan.. I might not go as low as that.. I will see how it goes..

OK now me got some food sources to add in :) Expect a repost :)

Hercules
08-06-2001, 03:52 PM
paul, paul, he's our man, oh wait. lol, listen to paul. the nutritional apostle has spoken and brings forth the message from the nutritional god.

i only suggested a tdk/cdk as an idea. not too many people can stick to them.

take the clen, take the clen. **startes chanting clen, clen, clen clen and has it burned into hulk's mind**

i need help!!:micro:

the doc
08-06-2001, 08:23 PM
cackerot, i can add as well. Most people dont want to have to measure EXACT amounts of food to fit within say a 33.333%/33.3333%/33.3333% (all numbers are repeating decimals) so it is commonly referred to as a 30/30/30 diet. Most serving sizes are approximate at best thus it is impossible to know exact nutrient values.
Many people have had successful weight loss using this.

Joe Black
08-07-2001, 02:54 AM
no clen for Hulk tuttut

Hercules
08-07-2001, 09:52 AM
lol, ok no clen. i was thinking about this and i think you should go with the 40/30/30 ratio. 40% protein/ 30%complex carbs and good fats. i won't go into great detail but figure your basal out and calculate from there. drink a gallon of water a day, do cardio 2-3 times a week and i would use interval training for that, you know sprint for a minute walk for a minute, run a minute, jog a minute, ect. keep up the weights of course.

back to the 40/30/30: make your diet whey protein based, meaning if you have 6 meals, make half of them whey based meals like mrp or protein shakes with oats or something to that effect. the rest of your meals i would eat lean cuts of steak, chicken, cold water fish(get those fish oils that way), turkey, tuna, wild game, ect. for your carbs i suggst low glycemic such as yams, brown rice, oats, whole wheat bread and pasta. you'll have to adjust that accordinly and to meet your own personal desires as far as carbs go. as for the fats i would go with the cold water fish, flax oil, olives, nuts, ect. i take supplemental essential oils along with eating olives and fish throughout the week. you can pretty much guess the foods to avoid and to use a good multi.

well, there you have it, my humble opinion on this issue. it's up to you to decide which path you want to take. just stick with it and good luck.

Wizard
08-07-2001, 11:23 AM
"the zone" is not 30-30-30.That's isocaloric.Zone is 40%carbs,30%prot,30%fat.
Anyway,isocaloric is a very good choice.
But I suggest you not to have a high whey intake as it's absorbed too fast.

Maki Riddington
08-07-2001, 10:18 PM
I'm gonna suggest the opposite even though no one is gonna listen.

Keep your carbs high,protein at a gram per pound and the fat low as well.

Don't drop the cals.
Add cardio.
Presto!

Ok we'll see..............

Joe Black
08-08-2001, 02:12 AM
See maki, I had just took some of everyones and am making one up and you throw in this comment tuttut lol

Ahh I am gonna go with my gut instincts.. I think consistency and calorie manipulatoin will be the most important thing anyway..:)