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carolinagirl
04-17-2003, 09:40 AM
What do you gurus out there (Brad, ST, Robboe, etc) think about this idea? I hate eating all that dextrose and sugar during my refeeds (I'm doing 1 6-hour refeed about every 4-5 days right now, for metabolic purposes.) I feel lethargic and sluggish for the entire day of the refeed, and I retain TONS of water for 3 days after. (Not just intramuscular, either.)

I'm thinking of just overfeeding on clean, medium to low GI carbs instead. I know I wouldn't get the same insulin spike, but would this elicit enough insulin, albeit more slowly, to express a satisfactory amount of leptin?

gopher
04-17-2003, 12:55 PM
I carb up with oatmeal, yams, and a banana. This works very well for me. Low GI carbs will also cause an insuline spike when eaten in large quantities. Especially when you have been low carbing for a few days. I think you will be fine replacing the high GI carbs with lower GI carbs. You could also try refeeding at the end of the day. I have my carb up meal shortly before bed and I sleep like a baby.

ChuckieT
04-17-2003, 12:57 PM
Leptin will probably increase with a low GI overfeed but it is likely it will be an insignificant increase to counteract plummeted leptin levels during a cut phase. I would suggest you stick with high GI overfeeds.

bradley
04-17-2003, 02:23 PM
Leptin increases in response to overfeeding so I would think that as long as you are taking in an adequate amount of carbs it would be fine. I do know that diets like NHE recommend carb loads that consist of low GI carbs. Try eating your carb load meals as the last couple of meals of the day, as gopher recommened. This is also Faigin's recommendation in his book Natural Hormonal Enhancement. Having the carb load meals at the end of the day will also give your insulin levels a chance to stabilize before your next meal.

One down side I can think of is the fact that it will be harder to get a large amount of carbs in during the refeed because low GI carbs usually keep you full longer.

Ironman8
04-17-2003, 03:16 PM
I thought it would be better if you have your first carb load meal in the morining, then go from there thoughout the day since you'll be full at the end of the day and not be tempted t overeat the next day?

bradley
04-17-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Ironman8
I thought it would be better if you have your first carb load meal in the morining, then go from there thoughout the day since you'll be full at the end of the day and not be tempted t overeat the next day?

Say you eat a high GI meal that causes an insulin spike. The insulin will then transport the sugar from the high GI index meal out of the bloodstream and into the cells.

The insulin will remain in your blood for a longer period of time, even after all the blood sugar has been delivered to the cells. Since insulin is present in the blood the body does not have access to it's fat stores and since glucose is not available it will cause you to become hungry again when in fact you just ate not long ago. Kind of like a sea-saw effect.

If you eat your carb load meal and then go to bed you can avoid this.

AJ_11
04-17-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Ironman8
I thought it would be better if you have your first carb load meal in the morining, then go from there thoughout the day since you'll be full at the end of the day and not be tempted t overeat the next day?

Also depends, some people start after a depletion workout. You don't have to start a refeed at a certain time. It also doesn't have to last for a set number of hours it is really up to the individual and the time needed in order to refill low glucogen levels.

I agree with bradley that low gi can be taken instead of high. But to the insulin spikes generally happen sooner if taken high gi. Also leptin levels generally rise the higher the gi.(from what I have been reading. Just a thought, why dont you take in some baked potatoes in your first meal as they are high in GI and not a suger.

Severed Ties
04-17-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by carolinagirl
What do you gurus out there (Brad, ST, Robboe, etc) think about this idea? I hate eating all that dextrose and sugar during my refeeds (I'm doing 1 6-hour refeed about every 4-5 days right now, for metabolic purposes.) I feel lethargic and sluggish for the entire day of the refeed, and I retain TONS of water for 3 days after. (Not just intramuscular, either.)

I'm thinking of just overfeeding on clean, medium to low GI carbs instead. I know I wouldn't get the same insulin spike, but would this elicit enough insulin, albeit more slowly, to express a satisfactory amount of leptin?

You shouldn't be consuming dextrose for your refeed, you want solid food. dextrose seem to enter the blood stream to quickly causing spill over into fat...that and sugar in general seems to make people nauseas as hell when in a carb deprived state.

Low GI is fine, just not alot of fun.:) However if you are going to switch to low GI your going to need to refeed longer. I prefer refeed carb intakes to be very high (500 minimum for guys, 300 for girls) so to try and eat 300 grams of carbs from oatmeal and yams in 6 hours just isn't going to happen. If you want to use low GI I'd recommend refeeding most of the day.

Personally every saturday when I go for my chocolate chip pancakes to start my refeed I experience many of the things you do I also get sick to my stomach from all the sugar and chocolate but that ain't gonna stop me!:D What I found is you can avoid most of these effects if you start your refeed with a moderate size low GI meal to get you out of your carb deprived state, then start packing in the high GI carbs an hour or two later.


ST

PowerManDL
04-17-2003, 09:36 PM
You've got me curious now.

How do you have your diet structured?

And be specific, before I have to find ways taunt you.

bradley
04-18-2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11


I agree with bradley that low gi can be taken instead of high. But to the insulin spikes generally happen sooner if taken high gi. Also leptin levels generally rise the higher the gi.(from what I have been reading. Just a thought, why dont you take in some baked potatoes in your first meal as they are high in GI and not a suger.

This was taken from thefollowingarticle:
http://www.theministryoffitness.com/mof/library/articles/article18.htm



When overfeeding, more calories are entering the fat cells than are leaving (positive flux). The system 'senses' this and affects many processes, one of which is leptin production (increasing leptin production).

So leptin increases.

From this statement it looks as though GI index doesn't really matter that much as long as you are getting in an adequate amount of carbs. Granted if you are refeeding around a workout then I would go with High GI postworkout.

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-18-2003, 04:06 AM
The idea behind starting off a refeed with high GI carbs is cause they (theoretically) provoke the quickest/most insulin response, and it is insulin that pushes the carbs into the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway.

It's not critical, but simple carbs at the beginning (even just a whey shake w/ 50g dextrose) and then shifing onto more complex carbs is the norm.

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-18-2003, 04:08 AM
Of course, if you eat enough low GI, the Glycaemic Load comes into play and basically makes the carbs behave a bit like a high GI carbs, since there's more getting through the intestines at any one time.

carolinagirl
04-18-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
... to try and eat 300 grams of carbs from oatmeal and yams in 6 hours just isn't going to happen. ST

I bet you money I could do it. ;)



PMan: I basically try to stay under 200 g of carbs most days, but it fluctuates some. Rarely under 100 though. (Sometimes a little more on workout days, sometimes a lot less on high-fat days - I'm a fan of the Berardi food-combining theories.)

I'm not doing any kind of true ckd or tkd right now, so I'm never truly depleted - the refeeds are for leptin only. (I've been cutting for SO long - over a year, with a couple of months total at maintenance scattered here and there - and I am already below my setpoint. I'm pretty sure that I have about NO leptin left. :()


I seem to be very sensitive to the high GI carbs - I just feel much better (and lean out faster) when I avoid them as much as possible except for PWO. (I rollercoaster something fierce, and crave them like crazy once I've had some. It tends to turn into more of a binge than a true refeed. )

So I think I will switch over to mainly low GI for the next couple and see what happens. I just figured that if leptin expression was based around glucose metabolism there was no point in even doing the refeeds with just low GI stuff. Yay! Oats and sweet potatoes, here I come!



Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Of course, if you eat enough low GI, the Glycaemic Load comes into play and basically makes the carbs behave a bit like a high GI carbs, since there's more getting through the intestines at any one time.

TCD, what makes you think this would apply to me? ;) (Surely not the 679 grams of carbs in my last blockbuster refeed??)

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-18-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by carolinagirl
I seem to be very sensitive to the high GI carbs - I just feel much better (and lean out faster) when I avoid them as much as possible except for PWO. (I rollercoaster something fierce, and crave them like crazy once I've had some. It tends to turn into more of a binge than a true refeed. )

You've just answered your own question there.




TCD, what makes you think this would apply to me? ;) (Surely not the 679 grams of carbs in my last blockbuster refeed??)

Yeah, that's why i quickly made that second post.

Blood&Iron
04-18-2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by carolinagirl


I'm pretty sure that I have about NO leptin left. :()



So I think I will switch over to mainly low GI for the next couple and see what happens. I just figured that if leptin expression was based around glucose metabolism there was no point in even doing the refeeds with just low GI stuff. Yay! Oats and sweet potatoes, here I come!

I dunno if you're saying this is actually what you're doing. But a 6 hour refeed of 300g of of low GI carbs is going to have a negligle effect on leptin.

If you haven't taken a week off from dieting during this past year, that's probably the first thing you should do.

fuzz
04-18-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Severed Ties


You shouldn't be consuming dextrose for your refeed, you want solid food. dextrose seem to enter the blood stream to quickly causing spill over into fat...that and sugar in general seems to make people nauseas as hell when in a carb deprived state.


Explain to me how this could be true, since all studies done on de novo lipogenesis show that people can eat upwards of 500 grams of carbs over a 24 hour period before any of it is stored as fat. Regardless of the carb source.

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-18-2003, 11:05 AM
Actually, to boost leptin, spillover into fat cells is what you're after - the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway. hence, the initial simple carbs at the beginning of a refeed.

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-18-2003, 11:07 AM
Oh, and the study was 700g of carbs, i think - and it took the second day of such an amount before there was any DNL, and even that was only a few grams.

Not sure if they were carb depleted before that though. I'll send Lyle a PM, since i know he has read/has the actual study.

Blood&Iron
04-18-2003, 11:46 AM
Not all (or possibly any) of these are directly applicable to the subject at hand. I was looking for the study mentioned above, which I've read but can't remember the details of. I'm posting these more for myself (so I can go look at them later) than trying to make any point. The first looks like it might be itneresting:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/6/737#R2

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/2/240?ijkey=5Z5VnIcktJ7yE

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=6696064&dopt=Abstract

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-18-2003, 12:51 PM
Lyle's reply:

"I'd have to re-read the stuudy to be exactly sure of the amount.
As far as amounts, probably better to put it in the following terms

max glycogen storage (approx 10 g/kg lean body mass over 24 hours and about 16 g/kg total storage) + total metabolic rate

So figure your avg. 65 kg 150 lb or so) person. They can store about 650 grams of carbs as glycogen. And their metabolic rate is going to be around 15 cal/lb or 2250 which is about 425 grams of carbs. They could probably get away with nearly 1000 g of carbs over 24 hours and not get significant DNL.

So they eat 700 g carbs over 24 hours. Not enough to max out.
In the next 24 hours, glycogen is already close to maxed. they might get anothher 5 g/kg as glycogen or about 300 grams + another 425 to fill up total metabolic rate. At 700 g/day, they're damn close. Another day of that with glycogen stores already maxed out and they've only got the 425 grams to fill up metabolic rate, the additional 275 will see some conversion to fat."

fuzz
04-18-2003, 03:22 PM
Right.

To get back to CG's original question, whether she eats 500 grams of oatmeal or dextrose doesn't matter at all as far as DNL goes. She will not gain any fat at all, assuming the refeed is clean.

As to the GI of the carbs, it doesn't matter, as some other peeps mentioned above. That is, assuming you can eat a huge amount of carbs in low GI foods, which is pretty difficult for some people. I could probably eat 10 whole wheat bagels at a sitting if I work up an appetite, but I dunno if everyone can do that.

Blood&Iron
04-18-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by fuzz
Right.

To get back to CG's original question, whether she eats 500 grams of oatmeal or dextrose doesn't matter at all as far as DNL goes. She will not gain any fat at all, assuming the refeed is clean.

As to the GI of the carbs, it doesn't matter, as some other peeps mentioned above. That is, assuming you can eat a huge amount of carbs in low GI foods, which is pretty difficult for some people. I could probably eat 10 whole wheat bagels at a sitting if I work up an appetite, but I dunno if everyone can do that.
Carb source tends not to matter in longer refeeds, but it does if they are short(at least with regard to glycogen replenishment).

carolinagirl
04-18-2003, 06:21 PM
So....the consensus is that it would be fine to do low GI (with maybe one high GI source to kick things off), but that to get the best effect on leptin levels the refeed should be longer? Say 24 hrs? (I'm really not that worried about glycogen replenishment - I don't stay that low during the rest of the week.)


(Seriously, though, y'all - I could easily eat 300-500 g low GI carbs in 6 hours. I'm not kidding. I wish I was.)

Severed Ties
04-18-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by carolinagirl

I bet you money I could do it. ;)



Then eat seems your feeding prowess may rival my own.;)

ST

Severed Ties
04-18-2003, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by fuzz


Explain to me how this could be true, since all studies done on de novo lipogenesis show that people can eat upwards of 500 grams of carbs over a 24 hour period before any of it is stored as fat. Regardless of the carb source.

Over 24 hours yes, however I'm talking minutes. Dextrose enters the blood stream at an increadibly fast rate when compared to high GI solid food. Your body is only capable of transporting so much glucose before a spill over effect occurs. You could avoid this effect all together by only consuming a small amount of dextrose or by taking it over a prolonged period of time. For my purposes I avoid it unless postworkout.

ST

bradley
04-19-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron

Carb source tends not to matter in longer refeeds, but it does if they are short(at least with regard to glycogen replenishment).

Would a short refeed (example 6 hours) consisting of low GI carbs be enough to have a beneficial effect on leptin levels? Assuming that you ate approx. 500g of carbs.

Isaac Wilkins
04-19-2003, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by bradley


Would a short refeed (example 6 hours) consisting of low GI carbs be enough to have a beneficial effect on leptin levels? Assuming that you ate approx. 500g of carbs.

I'm a fan of spillover to raise leptin levels, myself. I think Robboe mentioned it earlier, and I know ST has mentioned it in my second favorite thread (ok, third, cgirl ;) ) on WBB. Kind of "repriming the pump", if you will.

So I think that a short, but gluttonous refeed like you mention would be beneficial, but perhaps not in the way you might think.

Say you can get away with 700ish grams of carbs in a 24 hour period, like Lyle said. Now, condense this in to a six hour period. No joke. 600-700g. This will cause some spillover, as Robboe alluded to because it's simply too much rushing through the intestine at once.

:thumbup:

One might have a hard time actually hauling in that many low GI carbs, but as low GI as possible would be the route I went if I chose this path.

I would also do it before sleep so as to avoid the potential swing and crash if you're sensitive to it, cgirl.

carolinagirl
04-19-2003, 09:49 AM
What about the 'decreasing insulin sensitivity as the day goes on' thing we were talking about, though?

Isaac Wilkins
04-19-2003, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by carolinagirl
What about the 'decreasing insulin sensitivity as the day goes on' thing we were talking about, though?

I thought of that, actually.

For starters: Decreased insulin sensitivity is for hippies.


Seriously, the only reason I'd recommend the refeed at night is to ease the rise and crash if one is sensitive.

I personally don't feel it at all, except for filling out and having a powerful workout, so I like to refeed early in the day (ST's choc chip pancakes would go over nicely).

I think that if one were to consume that many carbs, the insulin spike would be so overpowering that you'd get the results you want. You might get slightly more spillover, but since you're going for some spillover, I think it's realistically a moot point.

In layman's terms, as opposed to a nice, insulin-sensititve refeed, you'll be brute-forcing the carbs in.

Isaac Wilkins
04-19-2003, 09:57 AM
Also, taking various glucose disposal agents could help: ALA, Chromium, etc. They'll help partitioning and boost insulin sensitivity.

Mr. Duchaine was a proponent of vanadyl, but I believe this has fallen out of favor since his death.

carolinagirl
04-19-2003, 10:01 AM
Well, how about we open the question a little more.


What would be the makeup of the ideal refeed, in y'all's opinions? Solely in terms of metabolism, now, with minimal fat storage and maximal leptin production as the goal?

Isaac Wilkins
04-19-2003, 10:06 AM
Something other than my Guinness and Mexican food refeeds, I'm sure.

I'm thinking breaking it down by the hour, if you insist on six (shooting for 600 grams):

Hour 1: 100g dextrose

Hour 2: 200g rice, pasta, etc

Hour 3: 100g low GI

Hour 4: 100g low GI

Hour 5: 100g low GI

Hour 6: 50g low GI, 50g dextrose (I still like the idea of the final top-off approach, for some reason). Ok, fine. I actually like dextrose. ;)

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-19-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by carolinagirl
What about the 'decreasing insulin sensitivity as the day goes on' thing we were talking about, though?

Not necessarily a bad thing if it occurs. Slightly IR muscle cells means more glucose will be pushed towards fat cell metabolism - which is where the real raising of leptin occurs.

That is what you want from a refeed - fat cell glucose metabolism.

Actually gaining fat from one refeed is quite difficult, unless you're packing in the fat also. It's doing in for sucessive days where you get real fat gain. Any fat actually added, from DNL for instance, is merely grams and will most likely be burned off the next day when you're back into calorie deficit. At the same time you'll be dropping any sub-Q water gained and crapping out a bit, so probably won't even realise it. At the same time, your leptin has risen a little, and you can carry on dieting - hopefully (and theoretically) from a higher station.

But CG, i wouldn't recommend 500g+ refeeds for women. I think ST said either in this thread or somewhere else, ~300g is about right. Slightly different metabolisms between gender, as well as difference in muscle mass and hormone profile, ~700g refeeds probably would put a bit more fat on than you'd like.

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-19-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Borris
Hour 1: 100g dextrose

Hour 2: 200g rice, pasta, etc

Hour 3: 100g low GI

Hour 4: 100g low GI

Hour 5: 100g low GI

Hour 6: 50g low GI, 50g dextrose

I'd bet after hour four you'd have problems actually getting off your ass to go to the kitchen.

Do you realise how much mass the low GI foods of that cabohydrate volume actually takes up?

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-19-2003, 10:11 AM
Oh, and if improving IS during a refeed is such an issue for anyone, you can always schedule a workout for the middle of the day. Not necessarily a "proper" workout, but some sort of GPP or "pump" workout would work effectively, without disrupting other "proper" workouts.

carolinagirl
04-19-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
But CG, i wouldn't recommend 500g+ refeeds for women. I think ST said either in this thread or somewhere else, ~300g is about right. Slightly different metabolisms between gender, as well as difference in muscle mass and hormone profile, ~700g refeeds probably would put a bit more fat on than you'd like.

Even though this I normally eat between 100-200 g carbs a day? Only 100 extra grams would be enough to push me over into refeed-land?

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-19-2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by carolinagirl
Well, how about we open the question a little more.


What would be the makeup of the ideal refeed, in y'all's opinions? Solely in terms of metabolism, now, with minimal fat storage and maximal leptin production as the goal?


Start with simple carbs, move over to complex carbs.

Spread it out over the day.

Don't stuff your face silly too soon so you feel heavy and lethargic. Just pace it like one normal day of "bulking", only without high fat intake (you don't try and eat all your calories in one sitting when you bulk).

The fat storage issue i addressed above. It's unlikely and difficult, unless certain criteria are met.

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-19-2003, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by carolinagirl


Even though this I normally eat between 100-200 g carbs a day? Only 100 extra grams would be enough to push me over into refeed-land?

Actually, you're totally right.

Aim more for ~400g.

Not sure why i said that actually.

Isaac Wilkins
04-19-2003, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


I'd bet after hour four you'd have problems actually getting off your ass to go to the kitchen.

Do you realise how much mass the low GI foods of that cabohydrate volume actually takes up?

Yeah, but then again, I'm a big eater who doesn't seem to suffer from the carb blahs.

I personally wouldn't do it for just six hours, that's why I scheduled it that way if one INSISTED on it. I like basically full day refeeds, or in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 hours at least.

_-_v_-_
04-19-2003, 10:23 AM
*stops being an antisocial, lurking ass*

Fascinating stuff, all. Much thanks.

On the topic of refeeds...how important is it to schedule a refeed on a lifting day?

Hypothetical situation: Say you don't train until Sunday, yet on Saturday you feel like a refeed is needed. Do you refeed, regardless of training schedule, on Saturday? Or do you instead put it off until Sunday?

(Assume a 12-hour refeed here).

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-19-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Borris


Yeah, but then again, I'm a big eater who doesn't seem to suffer from the carb blahs.

I personally wouldn't do it for just six hours, that's why I scheduled it that way if one INSISTED on it. I like basically full day refeeds, or in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 hours at least.

yeah, well even so.

100g carbs from oats, requires 166g oats per sitting. Three meals alone necessitate half a kilo of oats!

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-19-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by _-_v_-_
On the topic of refeeds...how important is it to schedule a refeed on a lifting day?

Not at all.

Just refeed whenever you need it.

Isaac Wilkins
04-19-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


yeah, well even so.

100g carbs from oats, requires 166g oats per sitting. Three meals alone necessitate half a kilo of oats!

Oh, I hear you. Not my idea of a good time.

AJ_11
04-19-2003, 12:31 PM
When I was doing the NHE I used to cram 5-600g of carbs in a matter of three hours. Mostly coming from low GI. Definitaley felt the heaviness after.

As far as energy when I had an amazing amount the next day and it seem to last till my next refeed. Weight usually rose up 10 pounds but most of it would be back to normal 3 days later. I prefer to refeed from low GI as well I seem to have more energy throughout the weak. I also have a HUGE appetite, and can eat 3-400g of Low GI carbs in a meal.

CG, I am not sure if you are planning any type of workout before. But why don't you try with 200g of low GI foods over your last two meals in the day. Also if you are sub maintenence then go over maintence for that day, that should also help bring leptin levels up. Keep protein and fat low, and use EFA's with meals and maybe you can add some fish oil for partioning.

But in the end it's really trial and error and what works best for you and your body. Give it a try and post the feedback that you get after the consumption of the meal.

bradley
04-19-2003, 01:56 PM
Say Cgirl started her refeed after her afternoon workout with some dextrose and then consumed low GI carbs for the rest of the evening. Would this be sufficient enough to have a beneficial effect on leptin levels without causing too much fat gain? Say the total amount of carbs was somewhere in the neighborhood of 400g as Robboe recommended.

Isaac Wilkins
04-19-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by bradley
Say Cgirl started her refeed after her afternoon workout with some dextrose and then consumed low GI carbs for the rest of the evening. Would this be sufficient enough to have a beneficial effect on leptin levels without causing too much fat gain? Say the total amount of carbs was somewhere in the neighborhood of 400g as Robboe recommended.

That's basically what we've been kicking around. Given that her need is smaller than mine, ST's, etc, she would have an easier time getting enough carbs in to a smaller time frame.

Severed Ties
04-19-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Borris


That's basically what we've been kicking around. Given that her need is smaller than mine, ST's, etc, she would have an easier time getting enough carbs in to a smaller time frame.

Agreed here, I think Cgirls problem lies more in the length of time she's been dieting. I generally don't keep myself or a client on any extended diet. The only scenario's I've had this occur is I've gone on extended maintanience periods where I had to be very rigged to keep myself sub 6% bodyfat or the one guy I worked with who had over 100 pounds to lose. When dealing with obesity levels of bodyfat you need long term plans the entire year but generally my diets never run longer than 16 weeks. After 16 weeks most people simply waste their time and muscle trying to fight for the slightest amount of lower bodyfat when they gain it back the second they cheat.

ST

carolinagirl
04-19-2003, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Severed Ties
When dealing with obesity levels of bodyfat you need long term plans the entire year but generally my diets never run longer than 16 weeks.

Yeah, the reason I've been dieting so long is that I was quite fat - I've lost about 60 lbs scale weight in that 15 months, and that doesn't take into account the fact that I've probably gained at least 10 lbs of muscle. Gone from upwards of 40% bf to around 20% currently (maybe a little lower, even.) I'm still shooting for 16% before I bulk, though.


Originally posted by Severed Ties
I think Cgirls problem lies more in the length of time she's been dieting.

I think you're exactly right. I decided to take this week 'off' of dieting - I'm not going to track cals or keep a food journal or anything. I'm not going to purposely pig out, but I'm just not going to worry about it. (This is sort of a psychological reset week. ;)) Then, I think I'll do maintenance levels for another couple of weeks. (Metabolic reset weeks.) THEN I'll start dieting again, incorporating my new, carefully-planned (with much help, of course! :D) low GI refeeds. (I really want to hit 16% and stay there for the summer.)

Sound like a plan?

Isaac Wilkins
04-19-2003, 10:17 PM
Like we spoke of: Take this week off. Have some nice, intense workouts, don't go out of control with the food, but eat a little. Have some fun, eat some stuff you like, etc.

I think you've come to the right decision.

bradley
04-20-2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Borris
Like we spoke of: Take this week off. Have some nice, intense workouts, don't go out of control with the food, but eat a little. Have some fun, eat some stuff you like, etc.

I think you've come to the right decision.

I agree, I am sure you will benefit both from the metabolic benefits as well as the psychological benefits. Best of luck:)

Severed Ties
04-20-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by carolinagirl


Yeah, the reason I've been dieting so long is that I was quite fat - I've lost about 60 lbs scale weight in that 15 months, and that doesn't take into account the fact that I've probably gained at least 10 lbs of muscle. Gone from upwards of 40% bf to around 20% currently (maybe a little lower, even.) I'm still shooting for 16% before I bulk, though.



I think you're exactly right. I decided to take this week 'off' of dieting - I'm not going to track cals or keep a food journal or anything. I'm not going to purposely pig out, but I'm just not going to worry about it. (This is sort of a psychological reset week. ;)) Then, I think I'll do maintenance levels for another couple of weeks. (Metabolic reset weeks.) THEN I'll start dieting again, incorporating my new, carefully-planned (with much help, of course! :D) low GI refeeds. (I really want to hit 16% and stay there for the summer.)

Sound like a plan?

Well first off congrats on all your success thus far, you've achieved a great deal in 15 months.

As what others have been saying a few weeks "off" from dieting will do your body wonders. When I set up long term plans every 12th week is a complete rest week for your body. No training, no cardio, no supplements (except a multvit) just a week completely off...no food or calorie logs, just eat what you enjoy without pigging out. I had one female client actually get leaner during this time. In your case since you've been dieting so long without break I'd recommend a week of training and 3 weeks of whatever you consider "normal" eating.


I had one guy who was dieting into low bodyfat thats fatloss was stuck at a crawl so I gave him a goal for of gaining 1% bodyfat before we would continue his diet . He wasn't happy at the time but when he was able to get 3% lower in the following weeks he no longer had any complaints. I have no doubt you can reach 16% with how far you've come, just remember everything will come together in steps over a period of 3-4 months so sometime you must take a step back one week to take 3 forward in the coming weeks.


ST

carolinagirl
04-20-2003, 09:16 PM
Thanks, everybody - for all your help. Y'all are the best.


We'll see how it goes. (I'll keep you posted - y'all know I won't be able to keep my mouth shut. :D)



I have to say, I am enjoying this eating thing so far - it was totally sweet to be able to actually eat Easter dinner and not worry about it. (FYI, I ate deviled eggs, turkey and dressing, sweet potato casserole, squash casserole, green bean casserole (noticing a trend here?), glazed carrots, biscuits, and peach cobbler. And the head of a chocolate bunny.)


Mmmm. Bunny.




(See what I mean, ST? For a tidy-sized woman, I can pack away some grub. ;))

Severed Ties
04-20-2003, 09:39 PM
Indeed you can...and you make much better food choices than I do....I think I'm made of chocolate at the moment,lol.:D


ST

Isaac Wilkins
04-20-2003, 09:43 PM
Mmmm... sweet potato casserole...

:cool:

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-21-2003, 06:20 AM
Personally, i'm gonna count calories on my reset week, but that's just me.

And i may have ulterior motives.

carolinagirl
04-21-2003, 06:24 AM
I'm serious about this, y'all - I'm not just being paranoid. I have gained some fat back already. Not a ton or anything, but it's not just glycogen. Maybe 1/3 - 1/2 lb?

So, that means i've spilled over pretty well already, and made a ****load of leptin. Right? So...can I stop now? Can I go straight on to the maintenance portion of the plan, I mean? I don't want to take 6 weeks to get back to where I was last week. Because by then all the new leptin will be gone anyway.

Crap.

BennettBoy
04-21-2003, 06:39 AM
You guys are too technical for me. :D Come again?

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-21-2003, 06:43 AM
Well, this is one of the reasons i plan to count calories.

I'll know exactly how much i'm eating before the reset week, and each day i'll slowly add about 100-200kcals a day. After 5-7 days, i'll be no more than 500kcals above maintenance, i'll be quite replenished glycogen-wise and i won't add much, if any fat.

CG, i'd bet you just ate a helluva lot food straight away without tapering up. I'd also wager that you're just holding sub-Q water and it's all in your head.

I'd say control calories a bit more strictly from now on, and besure to do a full six days at least before going back into calorie deficit.

carolinagirl
04-21-2003, 06:54 AM
OK. *sigh* I trust y'all, so I'll just turn my mirror to the wall.


Dammit.


So if I was hovering between 1800 (rarely - it was a huge effort to get that low for more than a day) and 2200 before, and maintaining/VERY slowly losing on that...I should end up this week at around 2300-2700?

And then go back to around 2000 (+/- 100) for the next couple of weeks? And then back into deficit the same way I should've come out - 100 cals at a time?


(Sorry I'm being all girly and difficult and easily freaked out. :( I think I'm extra super paranoid about gaining any weight back. I really appreciate y'all being so patient with me - especially you, Robboe and ST.)

The_Chicken_Daddy
04-21-2003, 06:59 AM
Just checked the dates of posting - have you only been in your off-week for a day?

carolinagirl
04-21-2003, 07:01 AM
Nope, I had had one of my notorious refeeds that started Friday anyway. So I just blended it on in with the reset week. So it's been 3 days now, even though it doesn't look like it.

bradley
04-21-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
CG, i'd bet you just ate a helluva lot food straight away without tapering up. I'd also wager that you're just holding sub-Q water and it's all in your head.


I am sure Robboe is right. After having the Easter Sunday meal I am sure you are holding some water. Once you taper your cals back to slightly above maintenance I am sure some ot that water weight will go away.