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Don Birnam
04-21-2003, 03:58 PM
Hey There,

I'm wondering about a couple of things having to do with High Intensity Interval Training, specifically HIIT in 6s/9s intervals.

-Do you think that this kind of training would be effective if done on a rowing erg? I.e. 6 secs at full intensity then 9 seconds at a leisurely pace? (I love the erg, hence why I ask ;))

-Do you think this is effective/useless/dangerous with thermogenics like an ECA stack?

-As for lifting weights during an HIIT program, should one just lift as a maintenance tool? What I mean is, can one combine HIIT with a muscle-building program? (This would be different than every other cardio I've ever done!)

Thanks a mill.

-Don

Isaac Wilkins
04-21-2003, 04:10 PM
A rowing machine should be fine.

I've had no problems on thermogenics, they're certainly helpful. Perhaps some people could have blood pressure issues, but they probably shouldn't be taking thermogenics anyway.

Consider your recovery ability in regards to how much weight training and HIIT you do. You should be able to lift heavy and perform HIIT, just watch your recovery.

Don Birnam
04-21-2003, 04:23 PM
Thanks Borris, just what I needed. One small question: in what sense monitor my recovery? You mean don't train a muscle if it's still sore from last time? Wait more than a week before retraining a muscle? Thanks bro,

Don

Isaac Wilkins
04-21-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Don Birnam
Thanks Borris, just what I needed. One small question: in what sense monitor my recovery? You mean don't train a muscle if it's still sore from last time? Wait more than a week before retraining a muscle? Thanks bro,

Don

Yeah, that's a way to start.

Just watch out for signs of overtraining: Feeling "burnt out", stagnating gains, loss of appetite, etc.

My volume is higher than most at the moment, incorporating HIIT, but here's basically what I do in a week:

Day 1: Chest + Shoulders
Day 2: Back + HIIT
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Legs
Day 5: Arms
Day 6: HIIT
Day 7: Long, slow cardio (walking)

HIIT training, while being somewhat more anabolic than normal cardio, is likewise much more taxing on the muscular system and the CNS. It's easier to overtrain on it.

I'm getting a fair amount of sleep, and keeping my calories fairly high, this lets me do a little more.

Don Birnam
04-21-2003, 04:37 PM
Thanks man, super helpful.

Maki Riddington
04-21-2003, 06:11 PM
It coud be done, but I would suggest sticking to the stairclimber, bike or running. The rower is a rather difficult machine to get a real max exertion from because of the kind of movement.

aka23
04-21-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington
It coud be done, but I would suggest sticking to the stairclimber, bike or running. The rower is a rather difficult machine to get a real max exertion from because of the kind of movement.

I did crew (rowing) one year during college and have spent a good amout of time practicing on rowing ergs. It is much easier for me to do a near max exertion on a rowing erg than on a bike or stairclimber. The key is using the large muscles in your legs. When many people row, they primarily use the arms and back, and do not put much force on the legs. When rowing is done this way, it is difficult to raise heart rate and performance suffers. When the legs do most of the work, then it is far easier to increase the heart rate and do near max work. Having said that, I find it easier to get a max exertion by running than by using rowing ergs.

Isaac Wilkins
04-21-2003, 06:59 PM
It's his call on whether or not the rowing machine will do it for him. I prefer sprints, but rowing works. Changing incline on a treadmill works. Stairclimbers work. Hell, if you can generate the force getting up and down out of a chair over and again, it'll work.

Maki Riddington
04-21-2003, 07:20 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by aka23
[B]

I did crew (rowing) one year during college and have spent a good amout of time practicing on rowing ergs. It is much easier for me to do a near max exertion on a rowing erg than on a bike or stairclimber.

*** I assume you've practiced at the university's facility? I know that the university I used to work at had a large number of machines set up because rowing was a sport the university fared well in. Now, these machines were all bolted into the ground. Most gyms (or the ones I've been to) don't bolt their rowing machines into the ground. After watching many people try to exert themselves maximally on the rowing machine, it became apparent that the machines needed to be bolted into the ground. Otherwise their attempts were fuitle, since the machines started moving around quite a bit.

On a stair climber I would suggest simply punching in the "quick start" route and then starting at level 12-15+ for 30 seconds, then getting off and walking around for a couple minutes until your next set. Now, there will be a problem if you're trying to do this during peak hours at the gym.


The key is using the large muscles in your legs. When many people row, they primarily use the arms and back, and do not put much force on the legs. When rowing is done this way, it is difficult to raise heart rate and performance suffers. When the legs do most of the work, then it is far easier to increase the heart rate and do near max work. Having said that, I find it easier to get a max exertion by running than by using rowing ergs.

*** Point noted, this was another reason why I suggested an alternate route. You don't need to worry so much about form or technique on a stairclimber, bike or when running. Unless of course you're mentally challenged when it comes to coordinating movements.

Maki Riddington
04-21-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Borris
It's his call on whether or not the rowing machine will do it for him. I prefer sprints, but rowing works. Changing incline on a treadmill works. Stairclimbers work. Hell, if you can generate the force getting up and down out of a chair over and again, it'll work.

*** Yes Borris, rowing works, I never said it didn't. I simply suggested that are better ways to go about performing HIIT when it comes to equipment selection.:)

aka23
04-21-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Maki Riddington
*** I assume you've practiced at the university's facility? I know that the university I used to work at had a large number of machines set up because rowing was a sport the university fared well in. Now, these machines were all bolted into the ground. Most gyms (or the ones I've been to) don't bolt their rowing machines into the ground. After watching many people try to exert themselves maximally on the rowing machine, it became apparent that the machines needed to be bolted into the ground. Otherwise their attempts were fuitle, since the machines started moving around quite a bit.

Yes, I used the university's facilities. There was a group of high quality rowing ergs for the team. The machines were not bolted down, and we did not have problems with them moving around. I also did not have problems with rowing ergs moving around at the Gold's Gym near my home. I suppose that there are several different types of rowing ergs. Perhaps some need to be bolted down, and others do not.

Maki Riddington
04-21-2003, 08:31 PM
I'm suprised, I'd be interested in seeing what the rowing machines look like.

Manveet
04-21-2003, 08:37 PM
I still think sprinting works the best.

jackangel
04-22-2003, 03:19 AM
I haven't read about anyone using such short intervals, and it might be that longer periods of high intenisty are best for getting the most out of each HIIT session. But they don't have to be much longer. A common scheme involves using 1 minute intervals, varying the high-intensity/low-intensity split from 10 sec/50 sec all the way to 20 sec/40 sec (pyramiding).

From what I've read, HIIT is a good option for those wish to use cardio as a means of fat loss while keeping muscle (as opposed to longer sessions of low-medium intensity cardio). I don't know how much (if any) muscle people put on while doing HIIT, but more than one person has said that his strength continued to go up.

piece,
rp:AUM

themightypuck
04-22-2003, 01:27 PM
I've got a conceptII machine and when I was in shape I could hit some pretty intense levels of work. The explosive force of a rowing stroke (if you know what you are doing) uses the whole body and can be pretty impressive. That said, a conceptII is over a grand. A pair of sneakers is around 50 bucks ;)

Don Birnam
04-22-2003, 01:33 PM
The thing is, I 'know what I'm doing', unlike 96% of people using the erg at a gym. I rowed competitively when I was younger, that's why :) I think if you know how to properly row on an erg you can easily do HIIT. We would have competitions doing erg pieces, and you'd be wrecked after you got off that erg. We'd often throw up afterwards. You're right about the cost though... If I didn't have access to one at my gym I'd be hitting the track long before I'd buy a Concept II :)

themightypuck
04-22-2003, 01:49 PM
I know what you're talking about for the erg. I did a six minute erg to qualify for the novice heavyweights in college (oh so many many years ago). I scored pretty high for a 185lb novice (3800+) and prompty puked my guts out.

Don Birnam
04-22-2003, 01:56 PM
Yep, sounds about right... At first I used to wonder if vomiting due to the intensity was healthy; I mean it's pretty extreme. But rowers wear vomiting like a source of pride, that they took their body to the limit and then some. I remember the first time I puked... I was standing over the garbage can letting it out and the senior coach of my college team came by and said something like, "There you go, that's what I like to see."

Scott S
04-22-2003, 07:33 PM
When I ran cross-country in high school, I puked a couple meets a year, especially if it was really hot. I wore it as pride, too.

Losing my fear of puking got me way ahead when I joined a frat at college here. But I think puking and frats are topics for other threads here. tuttut

- Scott