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PeaceBeWithYou
04-29-2003, 02:28 AM
oh man...I know this is difficult but damn, I think I'm going to lose my mind.

See, I've tried CKD before and I don't know how much it helped, probably because I used to trick myself into thinking bread here and there isn't so bad.

Well, I've started it again and oh man, this is incredibly hard. First of all, I don't feel full after just eating pure meat.

Second, I don't know what to have for snacks so I just eat peanut butter out of the jar.

Third, NO SWEETS!!! AHH!!! It's sooooooooo horrible.

I don't wanna spend money on lo-carb bars which are like $2+ each and I don't know what to do, someone help. I need a list of things I can eat besides ground beef, steak and chicken.

bradley
04-29-2003, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
Second, I don't know what to have for snacks so I just eat peanut butter out of the jar.

I don't wanna spend money on lo-carb bars which are like $2+ each and I don't know what to do, someone help. I need a list of things I can eat besides ground beef, steak and chicken.

Well first off the pb has too many carbs to be eating while on keto. I would stick to letting my carbs come in the form of fibrous veggies like lettuce, brocolli, etc. This can also help as far as food choices are concerned. Try eating things with a higher fat content. Here are some examples:

eggs, salmon, hot dogs (watch out for carbs), bacon, etc. You can also eat things like pork rinds in between meals, just make sure and check the carb content. I would still make sure I was getting ample healthy fats, but when on keto it would be tough to get all your fats from healthy sources. Maybe have a steak, along with a green salad and some olive oil as dressing. Might want to look at getting some cheese.

Ironman8
04-29-2003, 08:12 AM
Also, look for no sugar added beef jerky.

PeaceBeWithYou
04-29-2003, 01:18 PM
hmm, this is interesting...ya, I noticed the PB part and thanks for addressing it.

For about a 2900 calorie diet, how many carbs should I limit myself to?

And I'ma go get lots of eggs and like bell peppers and onions and cheese today so I can have omlettes in the morning, I can't really stand eggs so I figure I'll try to change the taste as much as possible.

So, this is going to be my diet for the next couple of months?

Steak

Ground beef

Chicken

Eggs

Hot dogs

and beef jerky with no sugar added? :(...I hope this all turns out to be worth it.

Behemoth
04-29-2003, 02:23 PM
How does peanut butter have too many carbs for a ketogenic diet? It has like 6-8g for 2 tbsp. 2-3 of that is fibre, plus it's coupled with all that fat slowing it down.

And besides. I thought most people could stay in ketosis with at least 20g carbs per day. Those fricking atkins diet carb bars have like 22g per bar... I don't get it.

raniali
04-29-2003, 02:50 PM
contrary to you - i actually lost my appetite on a ckd and literally had to force feed myself thanks to the wonderful satiating effects of fat and ketogenesis.

pb should be eaten sparingly at best because with all the other foods, you are probably around your 20g carbs for the day as is. the low carb bars do not count glycerine as an "impact" carb because it doesn't elevate blood sugar levels. however, it is still a carb and the labels are misleading.

foods i would normally eat:
eggs cooked in oil/butter
hotdogs and sausage (watch for carbs and fillers)
all fresh meats, burgers and fish
tuna with mayo or dressing
mayo, mustard, oil-based dressings
cheese (again, watch carbs)
and when i really needed the taste of something else:
sauerkraut, pickles and nonfat whipped cream

Bryan
04-29-2003, 03:09 PM
I loved ckd, I got to eat lots of streak,eggs,cheese and BACON! hehe but my appetite was so blunted i had to force myself to eat. But now I'm doing a high protien/mod fat/low carb diet along with hiit and seeing alot more progress than with ckd. I guess its because I couldnt workout with as much intensity as I wanted with ckd.

bradley
04-29-2003, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
How does peanut butter have too many carbs for a ketogenic diet? It has like 6-8g for 2 tbsp. 2-3 of that is fibre, plus it's coupled with all that fat slowing it down.

And besides. I thought most people could stay in ketosis with at least 20g carbs per day. Those fricking atkins diet carb bars have like 22g per bar... I don't get it.

Well when you have to keep your carbs at approxmately 20g per day 6g of carbs here and 6g there can add up quickly. You also have to take into account trace carbs from other foods. I would try to get most of my daily carbs from fibrous veggies because of the high fiber content and alos because they provide vitamins and minerals. All of which are beneficial on a keto diet because of the lack of food options.

Like Raniali said those Atkins bars contain carbs that supposedly don't have any affect on insulin levels but I would still be careful about protein bars because they can knock you out of ketosis.

PeaceBeWithYou
04-29-2003, 03:42 PM
So no more than 20g, I'm guessing

Man, I just ate TWO round eye steaks and I'm still hungry as hell. I think I'm just going to be hitting up In N Out for 2 months, everyday...protein style.

PeaceBeWithYou
04-29-2003, 03:42 PM
by the way, that was my 187th post, muahahaha.

Relentless
04-29-2003, 03:45 PM
I've been on a keto diet for a while now and have been consuming Labrada Lean Body bars that have glycerine and oligofructose in 'em (non insulin effecting carbs, similar to what's in the atkins bars I gather). They have not dropped me out of keto. I'm pissing out ketones like a mofo. I typically vary between 4mmol and 8mmol on my keto strips.

As I understand it, the bottom line with keto is that you MUST get sub-100g carbs per day because that's what your brain wants to use for glucose. Now given that there's apparently some sort of process for turning excess protein into glucose, you gotta watch that too... too MUCH protein ain't necessarily a good thing.

Realistically, I shoot for sub-30g/day, and if I slip a bit (to say 50g) I don't worry too much. Lots of salad, steamed veggies with supper...

My typical snacks:
low-cal jello
tuna with mayo
cheese
pickles


If you buy that Lyle Macdonald eBook you'll also get a starter guide to ketogenic diets that has a whole list of food options in it that I found quite useful....

Brandon7775643
04-29-2003, 03:47 PM
Atkins bars knocked me out of keto. My girlfriend has had no problems with his shakes (which contain many fewer carbs), so that could be another option for you.

I can't imagine having much pb each day, eating all my other meals, and still staying in keto.

However, my carb tolerance is pretty low to begin with, so others may have varying success. Get some keto strips and see what works for you.

PeaceBeWithYou
04-29-2003, 04:13 PM
Ey, if I don't eat sugar soon, I'm going to pass out or go crazy.

WHY AM I SO HUNGRY?! I JUST ATE TWO STEAKS!!

raniali
04-29-2003, 04:14 PM
keto is much, much below 100g carbs and even below 50g. the 20-30g range is what MOST people can eat and still maintain ketosis.

Scythian_Blade
04-29-2003, 05:04 PM
And I'ma go get lots of eggs and like bell peppers and onions and cheese today so I can have omlettes in the morning, I can't really stand eggs so I figure I'll try to change the taste as much as possible.

Peace, onions are not a bad choice for keto but are much higher in carbs than you might think. So you can't really fill up on em so easily. Pretty much same thing with bell-peppers. If you don't like eggs, don't even use them on keto. Plenty of other options.

In general, there are a lot of little tricks to the trade of keto that can help you stay fuller longer. You have to work out the logistics of the diet to suit your level of satiety. I personally get ravenously hungry sometimes if I try to go below 12X kcals in bodyweight.

Here are a couple of things that have helped me over the last week or so stay full. I am sure you know all this already but some of the best fibrous veggies for low carb content are asparagus, broccoli, Cabbage, cauliflower, celery, leaves, spinach etc.

Say I am going for a modest 300+ kcal meal. I would get maybe 4oz. lean turkey(~150kcals) and 4 tablespoons of cream cheese (only 180 kcals) or 1.5 ounces cheddar cheese. Then load up a separate plate as high as you can stack it with steamed broccoli and cauliflower. You could forseeably do this type of thing for several meals a day without going over the 30 gram mark in active carbs. I just gave this example because this meal has proved ultra filling when I need it and very easy to prepare.

For me it is usually easier to eat a monstrous amount of broccoli and cauliflower than to try and do it with salad + flax dressing for instance. Also, monitor your fat sources. Some things like olive oil and flax oil are incredibly calorie dense and you won't be able to fill up on them as easily as a result.

I am still obviously experimenting a lot myself, but you just have to stick with it and keep working. A little ingenuity goes a long way towards staying full.

PeaceBeWithYou
04-29-2003, 05:25 PM
Hey Scythian, thanks dude...I'ma have to try the broccoli/cauliflower thing 'cause I love that stuff with ranch and if ranch doesn't have too many carbs, maybe I'll suffice with that.

what's keto piss?

bradley
04-29-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
what's keto piss?

You can purchase Ketostix wich will measure the amount of ketones in your urine. Basically a way of telling if you are in ketosis.

PeaceBeWithYou
04-30-2003, 02:04 AM
I got curious today...if I'm taking in let's say 50g of carbs a day instead of 20-30, what's the difference? I mean, doesn't the body still have to use the fat and protein I eat to get fuel?

I need to something to surpress my sugar pangs.

as0l0
04-30-2003, 02:46 AM
still hungry after 2 steaks ?

try smothering them with ranch dressing or bernaise sauce or something that's high in fat.

bradley
04-30-2003, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
I got curious today...if I'm taking in let's say 50g of carbs a day instead of 20-30, what's the difference? I mean, doesn't the body still have to use the fat and protein I eat to get fuel?

I need to something to surpress my sugar pangs.

I am of the opinion that if you are in a caloric deficit you will lose weight regardless of the diet that you are using. With that being said you will still lose weight if you take in 50g of carbs a day but then you might not be in ketosis either so why even bother performing the CKD? The CKD diet is not some magic diet, you can lose weight just as easily when performing a more balanced diet. If a CKD is not something that you can stick with for the duration of the cut then I would just recommend trying a more balanced approach.

Although it is possible for some individuals to remain in ketosis with a higher carb intake although this would vary from person to person.

AlpineAudio
04-30-2003, 05:38 AM
My turn to for a question :)
If doing a CKD would I still consume the same amount of cals as on a regular cutting diet? I'm taking in about 1800-2000 a day right now with a 40/30/30 split right now, would I stay at that amount of cals (with the diet adjusted) or increase them? (by how much?)

PeaceBeWithYou
04-30-2003, 06:07 AM
well, CKD is supposed to burn body fat so I'm assuming that you can have the same caloric intake and do a CKD and burn body fat but...man, I don't know, it's almost 4 and it feels like my stomach is eating itself alive.

Let me tell you, I've had these meals and I've been starving AFTER each of them:

breakfast: PB (no more of this)

lunch: 2 steaks

pre-dinner: a bag of cauliflower and broccoli with ranch

dinner: Double-Double protein style from In N Out (for those who don't know, that's two beef patties, lettuce, onions, 1000 Island dressing with relish, and...that's it, I get no tomatoes)

So, I've been starving (I don't know if that's my body getting used to no carbs) and I've been wanting sugar like crazy and that's pretty much it. I think it'd be an amazing feat if I can keep my carbs under 30 grams for 2 months. Incredible how almost EVERYTHING you eat regularly has carbs in it.

GhettoSmurf
04-30-2003, 06:16 AM
how many calories does that add up to? it doesnt look like too much.

bradley
04-30-2003, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by AlpineAudio
My turn to for a question :)
If doing a CKD would I still consume the same amount of cals as on a regular cutting diet? I'm taking in about 1800-2000 a day right now with a 40/30/30 split right now, would I stay at that amount of cals (with the diet adjusted) or increase them? (by how much?)

Yes, I would stay at the same amount. Like I said a keto diet is not some magic diet that will immediately drop pounds off of you. I would recommend staying at the calorie level that you are at and then judge your progress each week, and adjust cals as needed. I would aim to lose approximately a pound a week.

bradley
04-30-2003, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
well, CKD is supposed to burn body fat so I'm assuming that you can have the same caloric intake and do a CKD and burn body fat but...man, I don't know, it's almost 4 and it feels like my stomach is eating itself alive.


You can burn bodyfat by creating a caloric deficit, whether following a CKD or a more balanced approach.

I really do not see why you are putting yourself through what sounds like torture just for the sake of a CKD. If the cravings do not sudside after the first week I would go with a more balanced approach to dieting.

Big & Tall
04-30-2003, 07:47 AM
I agree with what Bradley said. If you hate CKD'ing, go to a regular clean cut; you'll be more likely to stay with it and it'll be better in the long run.

That said, here are a few other ideas:

pepperoni--not the healthiest choice, but quick and easy. Eat it with some cheese chunks, appetizer plate style. Just watch out for trace carbs.

Chicken wings--DIRT cheap and quite tasty. Try 'em with hot sauce or ranch dressing

Sugar-free jello--ace for carb cravings

I would say just eating steaks is no enough fat. Most cuts are relatively lean, and you want more fat grams than protein. Cut it down to one but throw in some ranch/bacon/butter.

Diet sodas & Coffee--You need to watch out for these, as the kick SOME people out of ketosis. I have been drinking both in reasonable quantities, however, and have not had any problems so far. Give 'em a try.

I think if you've been starving, you have been having too many carbs. I usually have under 10g/day all week and by Tuesday afternoon or wednesday, my appetite is down dramatically as a result of hitting ketosis.

btw, I'm assuming you've read the following:

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=45

http://www.c-k-d.com/

Relentless
04-30-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by raniali
keto is much, much below 100g carbs and even below 50g. the 20-30g range is what MOST people can eat and still maintain ketosis.

I thought that this was rather convincing...

Bistrian BR et. al. Effect of a protein-sparing diet and brief fast on nitrogen metabolism in mildly obese subjects. J Lab Med (1977) 89:1030-1035

Summary: At least initially, any intake below 100g/day will induce keto.

Granted as your body adapts to keto, you need to go lower and lower in carbs...

anyway, this crap can be argued both ways and IMHO they're only there as a guideline. One needs to test, evaluate and observe one's own body to see what should be done for oneself.


Something that occurred to me, peacebewithyou, is that if you were eating lots of carbs before and then tried to go 'cold turkey' keto, that makes it MUCH harder on you.... scaling down gradually helped me greatly I think and I have had NO carb cravings at all. From what I have read it takes your body almost 3 weeks to fully adapt to a keto style diet, but the cravings usually disappear after a week or two... appetite suppressants wouldn't hurt either I guess... an E/C stack may help.

Scythian_Blade
04-30-2003, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
I got curious today...if I'm taking in let's say 50g of carbs a day instead of 20-30, what's the difference? I mean, doesn't the body still have to use the fat and protein I eat to get fuel?


My suggestion would be to stick to your CKD for at least two weeks and keep manipulating it and learning about what works best. The first part is tough for nearly everyone that does it. And judging a diet before you give it a chance to work isn't a good call. I made the same mistake as you for different reasons the first time or two I went into ketosis.



breakfast: PB (no more of this)

lunch: 2 steaks

pre-dinner: a bag of cauliflower and broccoli with ranch

dinner: Double-Double protein style from In N Out (for those who don't know, that's two beef patties, lettuce, onions, 1000 Island dressing with relish, and...that's it, I get no tomatoes)


Though better than what you started with, this isn't really an ideal CKD to keep someone full. try some more of the suggestions others have posted for meals. imo, you need at least 5-6 meals/day and way more green veggies than you have now. Protein at each meal. Use a fiber supplement like high-fiber all bran to keep more satiated. When you have lettuce, eat half a darn head or more of it. The more the better. Keep sourcream on hand as two tablespoons only have 60 kcals.

That said, if you are looking for a more balance approach that still leaves you in a fat burning mode, you might look into the Natural Hormonal Enhancement eating plan by Rob Faigin. You get 30-60 grams active carbs/day and two carb up sessions/week (though the initial break-in period is just like a CKD). Since he is adamantly against purposeful kcal restriction, I am pretty sure you would be quite full on the diet.

Also, to help you with your transition period now, why not just eat at a higher caloric range for the next week or so to stave off hunger until you get used to it. No need to have to handle hunger pains and carb cravings simultaneously if you don't want to. Of course add fat and not more protein. Keep it clean and you won't gain bodyfat.

raniali
04-30-2003, 01:20 PM
personally - i think you are starving because you are barely eating enough.

DowntoBusiness
04-30-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by bradley


You can burn bodyfat by creating a caloric deficit, whether following a CKD or a more balanced approach.

I really do not see why you are putting yourself through what sounds like torture just for the sake of a CKD. If the cravings do not sudside after the first week I would go with a more balanced approach to dieting.

I totally agree.

(short history of me)

In September 2001 I made it a goal to lose the flab and get thin. I lost around 80lbs in 6 monthes doing a less then healthy atkins style diet and then bulked and cut (first CKD try), bulked and am now cutting again.

My main view on them is that if you cant stand the cravings - DONT DO THEM. The way I deal with them is having 50-60% of your cals from fat alone. On the carb up days that usually last 24-40 hours for me, I see them as giving me that satisfaction that I stuck with it and maybe I add a little cheat to the carb up days, i.e. a donut(s). I'm redoing my diet right now, I'll post it and let everyone view and disect it :p ;) :D

PeaceBeWithYou
04-30-2003, 06:12 PM
So...I gotta decide either to do a regular cut my calories type diet or stay on CKD.

I'm thinking of going straight cardio for two months to lose body fat (e.g. swimming, punching bag, jump rope, rowing, HIIT). You think if I keep a regular diet I should be able to burn fat? Or should I do a deficit diet while on that?

Ironman8
04-30-2003, 07:55 PM
You should experiment. See if you lose weight on a regular diet, or if you lose weight on a calorie deficit diet.

bradley
05-01-2003, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
I'm thinking of going straight cardio for two months to lose body fat (e.g. swimming, punching bag, jump rope, rowing, HIIT). You think if I keep a regular diet I should be able to burn fat? Or should I do a deficit diet while on that?

Well to lose weight you are going to have to create a caloric deficit through diet, cardio, or a combination of both. I would only change one variable at a time. Think of diet as one variable and cardio as the other, and manipulate one at a time. See how your body responds each week and if you are not losing the desired amount of weight each week just drop calories by a small amount (200 or so) and then see how you respond to that calorie intake. Just adding in a bunch of cardio and also cutting cals would be a recipe for muscle loss IMO.

Dieting is a trial and error process. You have to keep playing around with different calorie intakes and amount of cardio in order to find what works best for you. The best advice is to make subtle changes in both diet and training so you can see how these small changes affect you.

I would also recommend to continue with you weight training program and maybe throw in cardio on off days. This along with a balanced diet will work fine for weight loss.