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crab
05-09-2003, 11:37 PM
I have been really slacking on cardio. I was wondering how important it is for me? I'm not trying to lose weight, i'm trying to bulk up. I have a very fast metabolism and i'm kind of worried that i would burn too many calories. Before i started lifting i really didn't do much, i would just sit around with friends and eat and i wouldn't gain a pound. It is really hard for me to gain weight no matter what i eat. Should i do some cardio even with my high metabolism and bulking problem?

Xg74
05-09-2003, 11:58 PM
I believe that it was Eugene Sandow who said that if one does not have a strong heart muscle along with the rest of the body, then you truly are not strong at all. ;)

GhettoSmurf
05-10-2003, 05:09 AM
its all about calories in and calories out. if you do cardio, you'll need to eat more. if you dont, you wont need to eat as much.

Ironman8
05-10-2003, 08:09 AM
Crab, if you're bulking, I wouldn't worry about the cardio until you decide to cut.

Saint Patrick
05-11-2003, 01:48 AM
I'm with Ironman. I had a very successful bulk last year (gained 30 lbs in about 5-6 mos) and I did virtually NO cardio.

Some people will say that cardio during a bulk will minimize fat gain, but I don't know how valid that claim is.

GhettoSmurf
05-11-2003, 05:40 AM
i agree, same the cardio for cutting. cardio sucks anyway ;) (for me at least)

Ironman8
05-11-2003, 10:35 AM
Hey, cardio adds a year to your life :D

Wikked1
05-13-2003, 09:36 AM
CARDIO DOES SUCK!!! It sucks ....it sucks....it sucks......but let your mirror tell you when to cardio.....and be honest....lot of guys avoid cardio altogether and then have trouble sticking with it or doing it at all......don't be "THAT guy" (as the commercial says) that's my best advice to you.

restless
05-13-2003, 12:36 PM
Cardio is not important. It's convinient when the time comes in a cutting period were you're not willing to decrease calories anymore and increasing weightlifting volume would be counterproductive but not essential in any way. You can increase your cardiovascular condicioning by means of squats and other compounds, especially if done circuit style.

Blood&Iron
05-13-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by restless
You can increase your cardiovascular condicioning by means of squats and other compounds, especially if done circuit style.

You most definitely do NOT get the same benefits from circuit training (or anything anaerobic) as true cardiovascular exercise. Namely, you're not going to see the same sorts of increases in oxygen extraction and possibly (though, I'm not sure of this one) stroke volume.

Increasing your VO2 max might minimize fat gain during bulking or possibly help add 'extra' muscle. Plus, there's the issue of general health.

Whether these benefits are important enough to you to suffer through doing the cardio is another question entirely.

restless
05-13-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Blood&Iron


You most definitely do NOT get the same benefits from circuit training (or anything anaerobic) as true cardiovascular exercise. Namely, you're not going to see the same sorts of increases in oxygen extraction and possibly (though, I'm not sure of this one) stroke volume.

Increasing your VO2 max might minimize fat gain during bulking or possibly help add 'extra' muscle. Plus, there's the issue of general health.

Whether these benefits are important enough to you to suffer through doing the cardio is another question entirely.

Well, I have my doubts about that. In my opinion circuit weight training with very little rest between sets works both energy pathways, aerobic and anaerobic and I see no difference in having your hearth rate rising by means of weight lifting or running, or crawling frenetically around the room for that matter.

If you tell me that it's less efficient in improving VO2 max that would be a different thing though. But even so.....

"A comparison of ambulatory oxygen consumption during circuit training and aerobic exercise in patients with chronic heart failure.

Green DJ, Watts K, Maiorana AJ, O'Driscoll JG.

Department of Human Movement and Exercise Science, University of Western Australia, Nedlands 6907, Western Australia. brevis@cyllene.uwa.edu.au

PURPOSE: This study compared the exercise intensity of a combined aerobic and resistance exercise circuit training session with the exercise intensity of continuous aerobic exercise in patients with chronic heart failure (CHF). METHODS: Peak oxygen consumption (VO2peak) and muscular strength (1 repetition maximum) were assessed in six CHF patients (age 62 +/- 3 years). Heart rate, rate of perceived exertion (RPE), blood pressures, ambulatory oxygen consumption (VO2), and ventilatory data were measured during two types of exercise: continuous cycling on a bicycle ergometer (aerobic [AER] session) and combined AER and resistance exercise (circuit training [CIR] session). RESULTS: There were no significant differences in VO2, RPE, heart rate, or hemodynamic responses (rate pressure product, diastolic blood pressure, or mean arterial pressure) during exercise, between the two sessions. Systolic blood pressure was significantly lower during CIR (P < 0.05). Minute ventilation and tidal volume were significantly higher (P < 0.0001 and P < 0.01, respectively) and respiratory frequency significantly lower (P < 0.005) during CIR. During CIR, RPE significantly correlated with VO2 (P < 0.01), whereas heart rate did not. Conversely, during the AER session HR correlated with VO2 (P < 0.01), but RPE did not. CONCLUSIONS: Circuit training is a well-tolerated form of exercise training for CHF patients that is associated with similar oxygen and hemodynamic demand to aerobic exercise Results suggest that RPE may be a better method of prescribing and monitoring exercise intensity during CIR, with heart rate the preferred measure of intensity during aerobic exercise."

Blood&Iron
05-13-2003, 04:37 PM
A study should be relevant if you're using it to support your point.

I'd need to see the full-text of the study to say for sure, but obviously the intensiveness of exercise prescribed for patients with chronic heart failure (and, consequently, the physiological response) is going to be significantly different than it would be for healthy individuals.

Yeah, peddling leisurely on a bike (as I suspect this study involved) or lifting pansy-ass weights with minimal rest, are probably not going to differ signficantly in their effects on V02 or blood pressure.

It's quite another story, if you're working at 90% of VO2 max or using significant weights. Either, I suspect, would be likely to kill the folks involved in this study.

restless
05-13-2003, 04:54 PM
I presented the study to illustrate that circuit training might not be as worthless in increasing VO2 max as your post suggested, and that quite a few of the benefits resulting from cardiovascular exercise can be attained with anaerobic training because after all, you are also using your aerobic energy pathways when you do something like circuit traning, 20 rep squats, giant sets, etc.

I found some other relevant ones, and some others that stated inferior results from weightlifting when compared to running and such.


Try to do 1 set 15 reps of squat,pull up, bench press and SLDL with very little rest between sets and then come to tell me if didn't have a quite decent cardio workout.

It might not be as effective in some aspects, but anaerobic exercise is all round a much more complete exercise, in my opinion.

Blood&Iron
05-13-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by restless

Try to do 1 set 15 reps of squat,pull up, bench press and SLDL with very little rest between sets and then come to tell me if didn't have a quite decent cardio workout.

I've done that a thousand times (literally).

How something 'feels' and the actual effects it is having are often very, very different.

RPE is a flawed metric for measuring cardiovascular stress.



It might not be as effective in some aspects, but anaerobic exercise is all round a much more complete exercise, in my opinion.
And why does one have to choose one or the other?

It's always easy to justify NOT doing something you don't want to do.

restless
05-13-2003, 05:04 PM
And although you stated you weren't sure on your second point weight traning does have many of the positive effects in cardiovascular condicioning, even if it's not so efficient in increasing VO2 max.

Resistance trained athletes using or not using anabolic steroids compared to runners: effects on cardiorespiratory variables, body composition, and plasma lipids.

Yeater R, Reed C, Ullrich I, Morise A, Borsch M.

Department of Medicine, West Virginia University, Morgantown 26506-6116, USA.

OBJECTIVE--To determine whether there is a difference in cardiac size and function as well as in body composition, aerobic capacity, and blood lipids between resistance trained athletes who use anabolic steroids and those who do not, and to compare them to university cross country athletes. METHODS--Four groups of men were evaluated: recreational lifters, n = 11, lifting < 10 h.week-1; heavy lifters, n = 16, lifting > 10 h.week-1; steroid users, n = 8, same as heavy lifters and used steroids; runners, n = 8, university track members. Echocardiograms, body composition (hydrostatic weighing), maximum oxygen consumption (Vo2), and lipids were studied. RESULTS--As expected, Vo2 (ml.kg-1.min-1), was greatest in the runners, with no difference among the lifting groups. High density lipoprotein cholesterol in the steroid user group was lower than in heavy lifters or runners. Left ventricular internal diastolic dimension was similar among the groups. The left ventricular mass index of the steroid user group was significantly greater than recreational lifters, at 161 v 103. There was no difference among heavy lifters (127), runners (124), and steroid users. There was no compromise in diastolic function in any group. There were no differences among groups in resting or exercise blood pressure. CONCLUSIONS--Resistance training in the absence of steroid use results in the same positive effects on cardiac dimensions, diastolic function, and blood lipids as aerobic training.

restless
05-13-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Blood&amp;Iron


And why does one have to choose one or the other?

It's always easy to justify NOT doing something you don't want to do.


Well, you go me there. I'm extremely biased against cardio and generally speaking have a problem when people diminish weightlifting positive health effects or try to convince me it's somehow essencial to do aerobic exercise. I get a lot of that at the gym. There's this one trainer that keeps trying to sell me the ideia that cardio is anabolic and that I would have better workouts by doing 15 minutes of it before training.

Anyway, I AM doing cardio twice a week.....