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Neil
05-23-2003, 09:30 PM
What is everyones thoughts on this article?

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/262steak.jsp

silles
05-23-2003, 09:36 PM
Dr. Lonnie Lowery is a guy who walks the walk, and talks the talk. He's massive, shredded to the bone, and doesn't make unsubstantiated claims. His references are usually exhaustive, and as far as I'm aware, always check out. I believe Pavel Tsatsouline summed up in one sentence what it took Dr. Lowery an entire article to say....

"Is being a 250 lbs. monster healthy? Hell no! Simply carrying around that much extra weight, fat or muscle, places extreme demands upon the body. You can have either either long life, or big muscles, it is America, land of choices."

Ironman8
05-23-2003, 09:49 PM
If I think I'm carrying around too much fat, I'll cut. I think I'm healthier now than when I was just sitting around watching t.v.

RoidRage
05-23-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by silles
Dr. Lonnie Lowery is a guy who walks the walk, and talks the talk. He's massive, shredded to the bone, and doesn't make unsubstantiated claims. His references are usually exhaustive, and as far as I'm aware, always check out. I believe Pavel Tsatsouline summed up in one sentence what it took Dr. Lowery an entire article to say....

"Is being a 250 lbs. monster healthy? Hell no! Simply carrying around that much extra weight, fat or muscle, places extreme demands upon the body. You can have either either long life, or big muscles, it is America, land of choices."

I totally disagree with what pavel said. I am not a doctor nor claim to be but if you were solid muscle your body would apapt to the "stresses" that goes along with it I would believe. You don;t suddenly become a ripped 250lbs monster overnight, it happens gradually.

silles
05-23-2003, 10:27 PM
****"I totally disagree with what pavel said. I am not a doctor nor claim to be but if you were solid muscle your body would apapt to the "stresses" that goes along with it I would believe. You don;t suddenly become a ripped 250lbs monster overnight, it happens gradually."****



As for the "stresses" your body would adapt to since the changes are so gradual, here are the general effects of a "high kcal" diet. For reference, high caloric intake is deemed at a regular consumption of 3,000 to 5,000 calories per day.


There are a number of reasons for it: elevated metabolism, low-grade inflammation, organ stress, and just "stuff" clogging-up our systems. To paraphrase Dr. Jeff Volek, "All these data make eating itself look pretty unhealthy."(16) How unhealthy? So much so that the antithesis of massive eating, severe kcal restriction is the only environmental stimulus (or lack thereof) that's more or less proven to increase lifespan.

As for your statement, "if you were solid muscle your body would apapt [sic] to the "stresses" that goes along with it"


And it's not just higher resting metabolic rate (RMR) that's affected; everything a big person does requires more energy just to move around all that additional size. Anyone who's forgotten to reprogram a treadmill after a small woman has used it knows how disappointingly few kcal are expended at lower body weights. That LED console mocks your 60 minute effort with a feeble readout of perhaps 200 spent calories. (Note: putting your fist through it won't correct these numbers.)

Why is said energy increase etc. detrimental?


All that energy expended by larger hombres requires oxygen, and that in itself has its problems. As John Berardi and I mentioned in "Getting Rusty," there's an obligatory mis-processing of O2 approximated at 1-2% during aerobic metabolism. Resultant free radicals can damage cell membranes and our very DNA… certainly not conducive to longevity. Typically we think of fast metabolic rates and higher thyroid or adrenalin levels as good. They're conducive to fat loss, wakefulness, and a sense of energy. But it's also worthy to mention that those who run through life reach its end sooner than those who stroll.

As much as I think the dangers of protein intake are overblown, and even though I take in up to 3(g) per pound of bodyweight, it cannot be denied that:


High protein intakes alter cardiac markers for the worse (4), may reduce muscle insulin resistance (14), increase calcium losses (3), and ultimately require more renal filtration — leading to more "stress" on the kidneys.(12,15) This is NOT to say that protein is dangerous, just that it induces a bit of "wear and tear" like other substrates do.

Don't worry, protein isn't the only thing that'll kill you:


Similarly, total fat intake (all types combined) is also related to cancer and heart disease in general.(8) And sugar, fat and sodium consumption across the years have been associated with poor glucose tolerance and glycosylation of our bodies.(11) Nobody wants their tissues overly "gummed up" with sugar residues. You see, even the "good stuff" in the food we eat comes with a price — over time. Between oxidative stress and now glycosylation, we've already touched upon two major theories behind aging.

To conclude, I hear that life is the leading cause of death, but I'm not sure though....I'll need a double blind placebo study to confirm this startling information.

Lonnie Lowery's references-

References

1. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Chronic Disease and Health Promotion. Physical activity and health: a report of the Surgeon General. Washington, DC: US Government Printing Office, 1996.

2. Ceriello, A., et al. (1988). A preliminary note on inhibiting effect of alpha-tocopherol (vit. E) on protein glycation. Diabete Metab 14(1):40-42.

3. Cloutier, G. and Barr, S. (2003). Protein and bone health: literature review and counseling implications. Can J Diet Pract Res 64(1):5-11.

4. Fleming, R. (2000). The effect of high-protein diets on coronary blood flow. Angiology 51(10):817-26.

5. Head, K. (1999). Natural therapies for ocular disorders, part one: diseases of the retina. Altern Med Rev 4(5):342-359.

6. Illner, K., et al. (2000). Metabolically active components of fat free mass and resting energy expenditure in non-obese adults. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 278(2): E308-E315.

7. Jenkins, D., et al. (1989). Nibbling versus gorging: metabolic advantages of increased meal frequency. N Engl J Med 321(14): 929-934.

8. Kuller, L. Dietary fat and chronic diseases: epidemiologic review, J Am Diet Assoc 97: S9-S15, 1997.

9. Layman, D., et al. (2003). A reduced ratio of dietary carbohydrate to protein improves body composition and blood lipid profiles during weight loss in adult women. J Nutr 133(2): 411-417.

10. Lowery, L., et al. (2001). Antioxidants. In: Sports Supplements. Lippincott, Williams and Wilkins; Antonio and Stout Eds.: Philadelphia, PA.

11. Preuss, H. (1997). Effects of glucose/insulin perturbations on aging and chronic disorders of aging: the evidence. J Am Coll Nutr 16(5):397-403.

12. Pundziene, B. (2002). The value and adaptability of glomerular filtration rate and reserve test (review of the literature) Medicina (Kaunas) 38(1):6-15.

13. Qian, P., et al. (2000). Effects of vitamin E and vitamin C on nonenzymatic glycation and peroxidation in experimental diabetic rats. Wei Sheng Yan Jiu 29(4):226-228.

14. Tremblay, F. and Marette, A. (2001). Amino acids and insulin signaling via the mTOR/p70 S6 kinase pathway: A negative feedback mechanism leading to insulin resistance in skeletal muscle cells. J Biol Chem 2001 Oct 12;276(41):38052-38060.

15. Vogt, L., et al.(2002). Renoprotection: a matter of blood pressure reduction or agent-characteristics? J Am Soc Nephrol 13 Suppl 3:S202-S207.

16. Volek, J. (2003). Ketogenic diets, weight loss and exercise. SCAN Symposium, Chicago, IL

RoidRage
05-23-2003, 10:31 PM
Go back on t-mag and/or the net and give me a list of natural BBer's, that have died due to being too big.

RoidRage
05-23-2003, 10:40 PM
Anyways back on topic, did you find that list of dead natural BBer's that died of "being to big?"

silles
05-23-2003, 10:43 PM
Well, hmmm, I don't think anyone has ever died from "protein overdose" or anything silly of that sorts. The types of health issues that would arrise would be mostly quality of life issues, kidney failure, renal function, increased risk of prostate cancer, etc. I believe the data that suggests that those who intentionally limit kcal consumption live longer, whilst those who consume between 3,000-5,000 kcals/day would be along the lines of statistics you are looking for--needless to say, such numbers are already common knowledge.

Edited: For spelling and grammar.

RoidRage
05-23-2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by silles
Well, hmmm, I don't think anyone has ever died from "protein overdose" or anything silly of that sorts. The types of health issues that would arrise would be mostly quality of life issues, kidney failure, renal function, increased risk of prostrate cancer, etc. I believe the data that suggests that those who intentionally limit kcal consumption live longer, whilst those who consume between 3,000-5,000 kcals/day would be along the lines of statistics you are looking for--needless to say, such numbers are already common knowledge.



"would arrise would be" I don't want silles guesses I want to know the names of actual natural BBer that have died from being too big. All the research looks impressive but until someone actually dies from it its just a hypothesis, not even a theory (something tested).

silles
05-23-2003, 10:54 PM
There is nothing short of providing a report that states, "Bodybuilder x died of being just too goddamned big," that would convince you that being large is taxing on the system. Regardless of the research that dictates caloric consumption over 3,000 kcals per day increased general wear and tear on the body, the numerous aofrementioned effects of a great protein intake, and long term studies pointing out that reduced kcal intake increases lifespan while the opposite is true....regardless of these facts, you refuse to acknowledge that being big just might come at a price. Maybe it's because of your own fear, or maybe you have difficulty admitting that maybe this isn't the "healthiest lifestyle," whatever it may be, your reasoning reminds me of an old joke I remember....and in your case, my faithful Tonto, it is ironically appropriate....

The Lone Ranger and Tonto are camping in the desert, set up their tent, and are asleep. Some hours later, The Lone Ranger wakes his faithful friend.
"Tonto, look up and tell me what you see."
Tonto replies, "Me see millions of stars."
"What does that tell you?" asks The Lone Ranger.
Tonto ponders for a minute.
"Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets.
Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo.
Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three.
Theologically, it's evident the Lord is all powerful and we are small and insignificant.
Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow.
What it tell you, Kemo Sabi?"
The Lone Ranger is silent for a moment, then speaks.
"Tonto, you Dumb Hoss, someone has stolen our tent."

RoidRage
05-23-2003, 11:04 PM
*Sigh* well obviously no natural BBer has yet to die from being too big so what does that tell you? That obviously an increase in the amount of protein you take doesn't affect you in the long run. And personally speaking I keep getting bigger and my cholestrol, triglycride, and blood pressure numbers keep improving how is that so if Dr. Lowery says i'm going to die if I eat too much protein? Back to t-mag for silles. As for Tonto? He's going to consume another delicious can of tuna.

P.S. weren;t you on a keto diet? You know the all fat and protein diet? Didn't you tell me Dr. Pasqualieafhebirbvr said it was perfectly healthy?

silles
05-23-2003, 11:12 PM
P.S. weren;t you on a keto diet? You know the all fat and protein diet? Didn't you tell me Dr. Pasqualieafhebirbvr said it was perfectly healthy?

You would have read that I still consume up to 3 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight sometimes. Now, that does NOT mean that my opinions on dietary FAT have remained similar. Based on new research, I have actually come to agreement with YOU, and so has Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale, John Berardi, and other diet "gurus." That revelation is, that saturated fat really ought to be minimized....while an increase in polys and monos ought to take place for optimal gains/health. I'm sure there's going to be much dissent on this topic as well.

GonePostal
05-23-2003, 11:15 PM
Sorry RR your on the short end of the stick. Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Who cares if your healthier then before. Your just one case. You may have had horrible levels and they are just improving. Anyways you have no proof to your claim and Silles has offered some evidence that supports (not proves) his claims.

Saint Patrick
05-24-2003, 12:01 AM
oooooh a newbie fight!!!

:lurk:

silles
05-24-2003, 12:11 AM
Sorry RR your on the short end of the stick. Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. Who cares if your healthier then before. Your just one case. You may have had horrible levels and they are just improving. Anyways you have no proof to your claim and Silles has offered some evidence that supports (not proves) his claims.

Postal, thank you for seeing what RR can not. I will never claim absolute truth, or originality in this field. Regardless of what some would like you to believe, there is no one method, one study, one proof. What we do have, however, is science, the ability to measure, empirically, and to create generalizations and assumptions baed UPON that science. To say we know everything, or anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, in regards to training, or nutrition, is to state your ignorance.

RoidRage
05-24-2003, 07:52 PM
Postal your wrong I have experiance, not hypothesis on my side. So i;m one case? I;d like to hear from people that have had an increase in blood pressure, triglycrides, and cholestrol from natural BBer's. Or find me some people. I think its ignorant to accept a scientific study as set in stone, remember this is a guys opinion, this hasn't been tested over and over again. Until I see empircal evidence that naturall BBer's are dropping like flies I am going to view the study as wrong.

MrWebb78
05-24-2003, 07:59 PM
lol bradley has his work cut out for him editing these posts

Ironman8
05-24-2003, 08:01 PM
I'm still laughing at "I thought your **** comments" :D

Maki Riddington
05-24-2003, 08:23 PM
I think that the point of the article is to point out the irony in that being muscular and massive just may not be as healthy it's "supposed" to be. Especially they way many mainstream lifters eat. Their diets are not that great.

Dr Micheal Colgan has been a huge proponent of healthy eating. He encourages the use of a variety of minerals and vits and to take great care to choose foods that have not been damaged by the enviroment.

SquareHead
05-24-2003, 08:23 PM
Wow you guys seem quite upset about this. RoidRage is your blood pressure high?

RoidRage
05-24-2003, 08:56 PM
BP is normal. I;'m not upset at all. I just think its BS to say natural BBer's are unhealthy becuase they eat a lot of protein. I still want to see a list of dead natural BBer's

restless
05-25-2003, 06:31 AM
Being on a calorie surplus may decrease your life expectancy considerably according to all the new research on calorie restriction. Although exercise does have many health benefits, having your metabolism always at full speed due to weightlifting and hypercaloric diets may not the best of things. Still, it's surelly better than being a sedentary fat ass on a constant hypercaloric diet, at least we do have a few months per year on restricted calories, which will probably help.

PowerManDL
05-25-2003, 12:59 PM
I agree; there has to be a balance.

Calorie restriction is the "brute force" approach to slowing metabolic damage. Sure, less activity = less free radicals = longer life. That's the common trend among life extension in *every* species.

However, that said, for reasons above and beyond that, you're not going to help anything by being sedentary and keeping cals at a low level.

Yes, metabolic rate may increase and this will increase free radical production; however, does it occur to no one that the body's own anti-oxidant functions will increase in response?

In the long run, I think combined with supplemental anti-oxidants, a moderate course of exercise and a good, moderate to low calorie diet is the best means to ensure a long life.

RoidRage
05-25-2003, 02:25 PM
Good posts Poweman and restless

KingJustin
05-25-2003, 10:08 PM
Didn't Andre the Giant die early, mainly because he was so damn big?

bradley
05-26-2003, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by Bizatch
Didn't Andre the Giant die early, mainly because he was so damn big?

He suffered from a genetic disorder called acromegaly, in which his body produced too much growth hormone. It is also commonly referred to as gigantism.

body
05-26-2003, 05:51 AM
andre the giant also drank a lot and he has lived longer than some recent wrestler who are far younger than him.

The_Brick
05-26-2003, 05:54 AM
You people seem more likely to die by the stresses caused by having an argument about "being too big" (which you probably are not) than by actually being too big.

Made myself laugh. No need for LOLs.

Mikael
05-24-2005, 06:41 PM
Guys, check out this blog
www.arthurdevany.com
The guy is close to 70 years old and is still a shredded 205lbs of muscle (he's 6' I think). Appears to be in the best shape of his life. His diet is excellent though, that's probably the no1 factor in his health.

"Too big to be healthy" for a 6 footer would probably be somewhere beyond 220-230lbs...

WBBIRL
05-24-2005, 09:50 PM
How many old giants have you ever seen walking around?? The human body is only designed to work so hard, your organs will have to work harder because of all that extra mass... sure being a 300lbs of pure muscle hulk is better then being a 225lb fatass but your body still has to work way harder. Its like takeing a VW beatle and placeing a F350 frame on it ( if your immagination will alow ).

smalls
05-25-2005, 12:37 AM
Who gives a ****. Is inconclusive research done by dudes writing their dissertation really going to change your goals? Then who cares.

As a man smarter and larger than I often states, "Eat steak and squat". (and STFU)

spencerjrus
05-25-2005, 01:25 AM
Who gives a ****. Is inconclusive research done by dudes writing their dissertation really going to change your goals? Then who cares.

As a man smarter and larger than I often states, "Eat steak and squat". (and STFU)


Some people prefer not to be ignorant, to each his own though.

smalls
05-25-2005, 01:58 AM
Why the need to constantly be a smartass and contribute so little? The majority of the posts I read from you are just trolling. Are you suggesting that if I dont adapt every bit of research out there into my life someway I am ignorant?

Please post your understanding of this highly controversial topic, of which you are so enlightened. I'm serious. Also, as I stated in my original thread, does your understanding of this topic actually effect your diet, training and goals?

spencerjrus
05-25-2005, 02:34 AM
Why the need to constantly be a smartass and contribute so little?


Because you're my role model.

Drai's
05-25-2005, 10:27 AM
Also, as I stated in my original thread, does your understanding of this topic actually effect your diet, training and goals?

This is the other side to the story. Knowing that bodybuilding isn't exactly the healthiest pursuit is not going to change most of our minds about how we live our lives.

I don't know what you're arguing though; you've said it before, bodybuilding isn't healthy and that's what this thread is about.

bigsethmeister
05-25-2005, 11:34 AM
In the long run, I think combined with supplemental anti-oxidants, a moderate course of exercise and a good, moderate to low calorie diet is the best means to ensure a long life.

Or you may die of a heart attack or cancer before you hit 50 due to genetic predisposition.

Though I agree with DL's statements the bottom line for me is: How do I wish to live my life? and What makes me happy? Even if natural bodybuilding were to be *proven* to take a year or two off my potential lifespan so what?

:cool:

WBBIRL
05-25-2005, 03:18 PM
Well, its harder on your body just in itself. The larger muscles and and increased amount of mass put strain on your body... look at magnus samuelsson, Ive watched him compete on worlds strongest man a few times it aired on ESPN. His body burns 8500 calories every single day.. which im thinking is basal and not with the lifting incorportated. Hes 6 and a half feet tall and weighs 330lbs, im betting this man wont make it past his late 70s. Of course thats only what I think and doesnt hold anything aginst what may be really happen.

MM
05-25-2005, 04:15 PM
Good article.

smalls
05-25-2005, 09:00 PM
This is the other side to the story. Knowing that bodybuilding isn't exactly the healthiest pursuit is not going to change most of our minds about how we live our lives.

I don't know what you're arguing though; you've said it before, bodybuilding isn't healthy and that's what this thread is about.

I'm really not arguing a point. I was just curious if people who are getting so mad about this would actually change their life based on the research that has been done on life expectancy. If not, then it doesnt matter.

Reinvented
05-26-2005, 03:50 PM
The scary thing, and the unknown thing about lifting and leading the bodybuilder lifestyle (natural here) is that it is still unproven whether or not any of this is going to come back and haunt us at a later time.

Bulking and then hardcore dieting, is probably not a great thing to be putting your body through on a continuous basis, but like others have said, you would think its healthier than being a sendentary fat SOB.

I would think a happy medium is what is in order. Get some size on you, get yourself lean, and then maintain. You may need to do this a few times to get your desired weight, but once there, you should be able to stick to a diet that requires very little bulking/cutting all the time.

I would also agree that no matter what type of size you put on , fat or otherwise, having an exceptionally large frame is going to put more strain on your heart and limbs/joints. Whether this is enough to lead to a decrease in life span is again open to debate.

Its the same thing about eating tuna, or ingesting so much protein. The studies just don't prove one way or another whether the long term effects ie 20-40 yrs of this are going to be detrimental to your overall health.

Vapour Trails
05-30-2005, 04:18 PM
Somethings are more important that living a long time.

largelegsbuthot
05-30-2005, 04:33 PM
BP is normal. I;'m not upset at all. I just think its BS to say natural BBer's are unhealthy becuase they eat a lot of protein. I still want to see a list of dead natural BBer's
Well I don't want to support any arguments here, but your never gonna get the proof your looking for, when 10 studies side with natural BB's being unhealthy, your always gonna have 1 study that disagrees. I see it all the time to the frustration of the doctors I work with.
A patient comes in with early symptoms of emphzema but refuse to quit smoking because "a friend or neighbour smoked all their life and died of being hit by a bus rather then lung cancer" sort of thing. Your always gonna have people who can maintain this lifestyle longer then others, it's all about common sense, there must be some small voice in your head that considers extreme eating and extreme lifting to be taxing on the body in some way.

shansen008
05-30-2005, 08:10 PM
The issue here is quality of life i think. I would rather take a couple years off my life if it meant living them to the fullest because im not limited by what my body is capable of doing.

The oldest people on record are pretty small people, this isnt a coincidence im sure.

Im naturally a large person, so im going to embrace that instead of fighting it.

shootermcgavin7
06-01-2005, 11:05 AM
I'm really not arguing a point. I was just curious if people who are getting so mad about this would actually change their life based on the research that has been done on life expectancy. If not, then it doesnt matter.



I've actually seen an article (it was actually in a business magazine) a few months ago that said if a doctor told you you'd die in 6 months if you didn't change a specific behavior, the odds are 9-1 AGAINST you changing that behavior. People are creatures of habit.

WBBIRL
06-01-2005, 11:56 AM
exactly, which is why my younger brother would wrather spend his money on cigarettes then on a monthly gym membership. The membership would be cheaper and better for his health, whereas with the cigs you get nothing but lung and heart problems.