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lilpenis
05-26-2003, 01:33 PM
I read this , this past Sunday in the Parade Magazine. Said to do your cardio on an empty stomach so you burn calories, not the food sitting in your stomach.

The Dr. also went on to say that lower intensity/longer cardio burns fat WHILE you're doing it.

And high intensity cardio burns carbs while you're doing it, and fat long after you're done...

Anyway, today I did my military presses, curls, an hour and a half of cardio. All on an empty stomach. I'm cutting. Is this a good idea?
Thanks

captnjosh
05-26-2003, 01:45 PM
Doing cardio on an empty stomach is OK but if you do it after a nights sleep you're likely to lose muscle.
In the end cutting comes down to expending more cal's than you consume each day.

Ironman8
05-26-2003, 02:06 PM
Ya, cardio in the AM will reach for fat and muscle for energy, since your liver glycogen levels are depleted.

bradley
05-26-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by lilpenis
Anyway, today I did my military presses, curls, an hour and a half of cardio. All on an empty stomach. I'm cutting. Is this a good idea?



That is definitely a bad idea.

I agree with the above post in that I think it really comes down to your calorie balance at the end of the day.

Performing a weight training workout followed by cardio for a long duration, like the one described above, would be a great recipe for muscle catabolism.

Just stick to creating a small calorie deficit through diet, cardio, or a combination of the two and you will lose weight. You have to give it some time. Just eating nothing and doing insane amounts of cardio will do nothing but slow down your metabolism and eat up the muscle that you do have. You have to be patient.

bradley
05-26-2003, 02:23 PM
Here is a link regarding morning cardio on an empty stomach that might be of interest:

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20073&highlight=morning+cardio

I would also recommend that you read the HIIT sticky in the training forum.

lilpenis
05-26-2003, 04:52 PM
thanks guys and bradley for responding. Today was the first day I did it. So I doubt I did any damage? I hope not. I reached a new high on my military press today.

Now that I think of it, the article I read in Parade I think was geared more towards overweight people in general. Not weight lifters. I felt like crap doing cardio today btw. I almost fell down on the tennis court in the 3rd set

btw, I didnt do it in the AM. I did it about 2 hours after breakfeast. I was hungry in the 3rd set though

Ironman8
05-26-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by lilpenis
I felt like crap doing cardio today btw. I almost fell down on the tennis court in the 3rd set

You did cardio on a tennis court? Was it large? Becuase most of the tennis courts I go to don't have to much room to sprint :)

lilpenis
05-26-2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Ironman8


You did cardio on a tennis court? Was it large? Becuase most of the tennis courts I go to don't have to much room to sprint :)

funny. Sorry dude, I dont play sissy tennis. I was ranked number 10 in the state a few years ago. Playing almost 2 hours against the '01 conference champion is enough cardio :D

heathj
05-26-2003, 09:58 PM
Line drills are pretty f*cking hard also.

GhettoSmurf
05-27-2003, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by heathj
Line drills are pretty f*cking hard also.

i agree. have you ever done/heard of doing "W's" on a tennis court? those can get hard, especially when your coach is in a pissy mood

Ironman8
05-27-2003, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by lilpenis
Playing almost 2 hours against the '01 conference champion is enough cardio :D

Heh heh, yes it is :D

ftotti10
05-28-2003, 07:19 AM
To get back to the orginal question.........
Doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach will help you lose weight. However most of this will come as a result of losing muscle and not fat. If your aim is to lose fat and to maintain muscle then you definitley should not do cardio on an empty stomach.

Most people think that the body will use fat as its source of fuel for the cardio, however it will use your muscles as its primary source of fuel, thus sending your body into a severe catabolic state, and remeber your body is already in a catabolic state after sleep.

Your best bet is to cunsume a high GI carb, along with some protein before your workout.

With regards to the type of cardio to perform, high intensity is the only option. The calories you burn during cardio are not whats important. You need to riase your bodys metabolism so that it turns into a 24 hour fat burning machine. Low intensity cardio cannot do this as it does not challege the bodys central nevouse systems or respotary systems. Only high intensity cardio can do this. 20 mins of cardio is enough as this length does not allow you to pace yourself. You must give your all for the full 20 mins

GhettoSmurf
05-28-2003, 07:46 AM
:withstupi very good explination IMHO :)

Silverback
05-28-2003, 08:00 AM
superb explanation totti!!!

By ftotti are you refering to francesco???? whereabouts in ireland do you live mate?

B to the R

ftotti10
05-28-2003, 09:16 AM
Thanks for the praise lads. Its just there is so much confusion on that particular topic. Its easy for people to get mixed up.

Yeah the f is for Francesco. My nephew is half Italian and I perfer italian soccer to English hence the connection.

Im from Cork by the way, where you from Big Ron

lilpenis
05-28-2003, 10:29 AM
im half irish and half of my family still lives in dublin. I was there last year. mmmm love me some dark haired irish girls

ftotti10
05-28-2003, 12:13 PM
yeah irish girls are cool. Probably cause they are half pissed most of the time

Silverback
05-28-2003, 04:29 PM
i live in North West England near Lancaster/Morecambe :)

aka23
05-28-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by ftotti10
Most people think that the body will use fat as its source of fuel for the cardio, however it will use your muscles as its primary source of fuel, thus sending your body into a severe catabolic state, and remeber your body is already in a catabolic state after sleep.

I agree that doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach is catabolic and may result in lost muscle. However, I disagree that muscles will be the primary source of fuel. Even under the most extreme conditions, protein (including muscle protein) usually contributes less than 10% of total energy during cardio. The primary sources of fuel are usually fat, glucose, and glycogen; like when cardio is done at other times.


Originally posted by ftotti10
With regards to the type of cardio to perform, high intensity is the only option. The calories you burn during cardio are not whats important. You need to riase your bodys metabolism so that it turns into a 24 hour fat burning machine. Low intensity cardio cannot do this as it does not challege the bodys central nevouse systems or respotary systems. Only high intensity cardio can do this. 20 mins of cardio is enough as this length does not allow you to pace yourself. You must give your all for the full 20 mins

I feel that high intensity cardio is quite beneficial, but I disagree that it is the only option. I feel that lower intensity cardio (meaning the intensity and duration that is typically recommended by health orgainizations) is beneficial as well. It helps regulate your appetite, increases your metabolism, helps maintain muscle (as opposed to dieting without cardio or weights), increases fat burning enzymes so you will be a better fat burner in the future, and changes the body's chemistry in ways that favor reduing body fat (effects insulin, adrenaline, cortisol, and endorphins). Burning calories and fat during the activity should not be ignored. This can be an important contribution to body composition changes as well. In addition, traditional cardio has numerous health benefits.

High intensity cardio also does nearly all of these things. In most cases it does so to a greater degree than lower intensities. . This is especially true in regard to the increased metabolism. In some cases, high intensity cardio effects the body in different ways from low intensities, so a person who does both intensities benefits the most. Doing high intensity sessions increases need for recovery. Without sufficient recovery, it presents an overtraining risk, which can also result in lost muscle. It significantly increases injury risk, especially in beginners. I think that it is desireable to have a program that includes both lower and higher intensities. I think beginners should gradually work up towards higher intensities, and high intensity cardio should not be done on consecutive days.

aka23
05-28-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by lilpenis
Anyway, today I did my military presses, curls, an hour and a half of cardio. All on an empty stomach. I'm cutting. Is this a good idea?
Thanks

Doing cardio on an empty stomach is a common recommendation among recreational exercisers as well as some fitness professionals. It is true that doing cardio after fasting all night increases fat burning due to lower glycogen levels. However, it also increases muscle wasting due to the glycogen levels as well as high levels of the the catabolic stress hormone cortisol after an overnight fast. Furthermore doing cardio on an empty stomach greatly reduces endurance and performance, so you are likely to stop sooner and burn fewer calories. It also feels quite unpleasant for many, which makes you less likely to continue with the program. Personally, I feel awful if I am hungry while working out, and when my blood sugar gets low I start getting headaches and have other negative symptoms.

I would suggest doing cardio with something in your stomach, but not so soon after a meal that insulin levels would be high or there would be digestion problems. This is especially true if you are doing HIIT or other high intensity cardio for which you are not as concerned about buring fat during the activity. I think the best time of day to do it is when it is convenient for your schedule and when you are likely to continue.

Weightlifting on an empty stomach is also a bad idea for similar reasons. Your primary fuel during weightlifting is glucose/glycogen. Without sufficient fuel, performance is reduced. In addition, there are the same catabolic risks as with the cardio, and it may interfere with recovery and muscle building.

ftotti10
05-29-2003, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by aka23


The primary sources of fuel are usually fat, glucose, and glycogen; like when cardio is done at other times.


.

This is true. But becuase you have fasted during the night and are training on an empty stomach, then glucose and glycogen levels are very low. In order to obtain this it will start breaking down the muscles to get the require glucose and glycogen. It will get a little, very little from fat but the majority of it comes from your muscles.

aka23
05-29-2003, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by ftotti10
It will get a little, very little from fat but the majority of it comes from your muscles.

In the study "Effect of initial muscle glycogen levels on protein catabolism during exercise" (1980), Lemon and Mullin found

"The body uses protein (including muscle protein) as an energy source during exercise, but only under extreme conditions such as complete starvation or prolonged exercise, especially under conditions of carbohydrate depletion, does protein's contribution reach even 10% of the total energy production."

I believe that the maximum protein usage found in the study was 10.4% of calories. This occurred under conditions of carbohydrate depletion (low glucose & glycogen levels).

What is your source of information?

gopher
05-29-2003, 09:52 AM
I have found that a short intense cardio session first thing in the morning on an empty stomach is very effective for fat burning. I take 1 gr. of BCAA per pound of bodyweight divided up through out the workout. Low glycogen levels along with the sudden increase in amminos in the blood stream trick the body into thinking it is using more muscle tissue for energy than it actually is. In an effort to preserve muscle tissue the body burns more stored BF for energy.
I find that this is very effective for bodybuilders trying to preserve maximum muscle mass while shedding BF. The average Joe who is just trying to drop a few lbs. can get by with the old "move calories used than consumed" method of weight loss. However, BBers need to be a little more creative to achieve optimal results.

bradley
05-29-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by aka23


It is true that doing cardio after fasting all night increases fat burning due to lower glycogen levels.

Are you referring to liver glycogen levels when you say glycogen or muscle glycogen? I agree if you are referring to liver glycogen, but I wouldn't think that muscle glycogen would be any lower just because of an overnight fast. Seeing as how when we are asleep most of the bodies energy would come from triglycerides.

aka23
05-29-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by bradley
Are you referring to liver glycogen levels when you say glycogen or muscle glycogen? I agree if you are referring to liver glycogen, but I wouldn't think that muscle glycogen would be any lower just because of an overnight fast. Seeing as how when we are asleep most of the bodies energy would come from triglycerides.

Yes, liver glycogen. When you are resting overnight, about 1/3 of energy usually comes from glucose/liver glycogen. Much of this energy is used by the brain. The brain cannot effectively use muscle glycogen. After an overnight fast liver glycogen levels are often down by 80% or more in non-athletes. Skeletal muscle glycogen is also reduced to a certain extent, but no where near as much as liver glycogen.

NormalDude
05-29-2003, 10:13 PM
**** man I wish I understood half the stuff you guys were saying. What is the best way to go about burning fat and not losing muscle when doing cardio in the morning? And say it is english please.

Scott S
05-29-2003, 10:37 PM
Drink a protein shake (with at least 50 grams of carbs) first, let it digest a little, and then run.

Hope that helps, 'Dude.

AJ_11
05-29-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by NormalDude
**** man I wish I understood half the stuff you guys were saying. What is the best way to go about burning fat and not losing muscle when doing cardio in the morning? And say it is english please.

Really it comes out to cals in vs cals out at the end of the day. I have personally taken some glutamine on a empty stomach along with an EC stack doing light cardio and did not notice any drastic effects but I feel that muscle mass is more important that 2% extra fat burning.

What you can try is to take a small meal consisting of some carbs and protein and then go ahead with your cardio.

If your primary goal is to lose fat then eat less overall in the day.

AJ_11
05-29-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Scott S
Drink a protein shake (with at least 50 grams of carbs) first, let it digest a little, and then run.

Hope that helps, 'Dude.

IMO, that is too much carbs. I usually do about 25g carbs(maltodextrin) and 50g whey.

Another idea is to do cardio mid day, and eat a low gi meal about 3 hours before, but that if you plan to keep it light to moderate intensity.

If doing HIIT follow the same as you would doing a weight workout.