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bryancore
05-26-2003, 01:52 PM
For all of those who have or are cutting:

Do you go all out on refeeds or do you count the amounts of carbs and calories you take in on refeeds? I'm asking this because I'm an endomorph, and i'm afraid if i go all out and just eat whatever on a refeed day i will f*ck up my progress instead of gaining the benefits.

Behemoth
05-26-2003, 02:01 PM
Basically my refeeds are like this. I eat my normal amount of protein, I stray away from most all fat I can avoid. And I allow myself to most any carb I want. I don't go all crazy and eat myself until my stomache hurts. I just eat as if I weren't a bodybuilder, casually like a normal 16 year old kid.

bradley
05-26-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by bryancore
For all of those who have or are cutting:

Do you go all out on refeeds or do you count the amounts of carbs and calories you take in on refeeds? I'm asking this because I'm an endomorph, and i'm afraid if i go all out and just eat whatever on a refeed day i will f*ck up my progress instead of gaining the benefits.

I think you should plan your refeeds just as you would your diet. Hence the reason that they are called refeeds and not cheat days. I don't think you need to count every calorie or carb that you eat but just don't pick up a bag of cookies and a half a gallon of ice cream for the sake of a refeed.

When overfeeding on both carbs and fat which is usually the case when someone is going "all out" your body will be using the carbs as energy/glycogen and the fat will be stored as fat.

I do think it is okay to have cheat foods if you have the craving for them but just eating them all day is not the ideal way to go about refeeding IMO.

Just stick to high carb foods that have minimal fat, and you will be fine. This can still be fun. Just pick up some kid cereal that you usually wouldn't get to have, etc. Be a little creative:)

GhettoSmurf
05-26-2003, 02:25 PM
IMO i wouldnt "go all out" i mean, i know if i were cutting or doing a CKD and was going to have a planned carb up, i'd look through the kid cereal section :)

IMO i'd try to stick with high carb foods, and try to avoid high amounts of fat.

bryancore
05-26-2003, 03:12 PM
Pretty much the opposite of a CKD?

Regular Days: Low Carbs, High Fats
Refeeds: High Carbs, Low fats

right?

GhettoSmurf
05-26-2003, 03:36 PM
exactly. i've heard quite a few people on the www.c-k-d.com board basically say that on the carb refeed days, they keep protein the same, but switch the fat and carb ratios.


so like if you are eating 30/10/60 p/c/f (**just a ratio im using as an example**) on your normal days, then you would try to have 30/60(or more)/10(or less) on your refeed.

but yes you are exactly correct :)

bradley
05-26-2003, 04:35 PM
Here is an article that might be of help:

http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/carb-up-and-ketogenic-diet.htm

SoulOfKoRea
05-26-2003, 05:45 PM
hmmm, I just found out that many cereals contain partially hydrogenated oils.... that oreo case should be against cereals since most children and adults eat cereal for breakfast

GhettoSmurf
05-26-2003, 06:09 PM
what cereals contain partially hydrogenated oils? i thought MOST kids cereals were very low in fat, and therefor unlikely to have the oils? can you tell me some of those cereals that have the oils?

Minotaur
05-26-2003, 06:24 PM
I eat whatever I want on my refeed days. I don't eat a lot, I don't make a pig of myself, I just eat what I want. And it's working.

Ironman8
05-26-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by GhettoSmurf
what cereals contain partially hydrogenated oils?

Doesn't some granola have some added partially hrydrogented fats?

GhettoSmurf
05-26-2003, 07:47 PM
yes granola. but im talking about kids cereal (lucky charms, frosted flakes, cookie crisp, etc.)

Ironman8
05-26-2003, 07:51 PM
Oh.

Is Honey Nut Clusters considered a kids cereal? I think that has partially hydrogented fat in it.

GhettoSmurf
05-26-2003, 07:59 PM
well note the "nut" part of the title. there's your answer...

heathj
05-26-2003, 09:14 PM
I'd say most "kid" cereals are just high sugar concentrated cereals, like cinnamon toast crunch, lucky charms, etc.

Scythian_Blade
05-26-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by bryancore
For all of those who have or are cutting:

Do you go all out on refeeds or do you count the amounts of carbs and calories you take in on refeeds? I'm asking this because I'm an endomorph, and i'm afraid if i go all out and just eat whatever on a refeed day i will f*ck up my progress instead of gaining the benefits.

I have been using 6 hour, more or less uncontrolled refeeds done twice a week. I can usually eat between 700-800 grams carbs before I start feeling sick. I try to limit fat to some extent but that is about it. I just have fun with the rest of it. So far it has been working.

If you have a huge appetite like me and still don't want to count kcals, you might try the shorter refeeds first. Daylong refeeds can be a problem done like that sometimes.

GhettoSmurf
05-27-2003, 04:25 AM
yes, but is 6 hours long enough to refil muscle glycogen(sp?) that you lose while on keto?

bradley
05-27-2003, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by GhettoSmurf
yes, but is 6 hours long enough to refil muscle glycogen(sp?) that you lose while on keto?

I wouldn't think so assuming that the individual is fully depleted. The enzymes that are involved in storing the glycogen will be what limits the amount of glycogen replenishment. Just cramming in the required amount of carbs over a 6 hour time period is not going to cause glycogen levels to be topped off.

From what I have read you should be able to refill muscle glycogen completely with a 24 hour carb up assuming that you performed a depletion workout before beginning the carb up and a sufficient amount of carbs were consumed during the carb up.

Although the first 6 hours after the depletion workout will be the time when the greatest amount of carbs can be used to refill muscle glycogen.

Ironman8
05-27-2003, 06:53 AM
And wasn't there a theory that you should start your carb up before you go to sleep, and then continue the next day?

bradley
05-27-2003, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Ironman8
And wasn't there a theory that you should start your carb up before you go to sleep, and then continue the next day?

You are thinking about the NHE style carbs ups which is where the individual only carbs up over the last one or two meals of the day. Faigin recommends carbing up before going to sleep to avoid the swings in blood sugar that can cause hunger. What he refers to has "hormonal hunger."

This would not really be relevant in what is discussed above, seeing as how you would be carbing up for just one day total.

SoulOfKoRea
05-27-2003, 10:44 AM
well the three cereals that I have in my pantry(Cinnamon toast crunch, LOW FAT granola cereal thingy from Kelloggs, and the Oreo cereal<~~die die die!) contain either Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil and/or Cottonseed Oil

raniali
05-27-2003, 11:32 AM
from what i have read from lyle (and my own personal experience), an improper refeed may make or break your results. it is my opinion that refeeding the "right" way is just as important as keeping carbs low for a proper keto diet. too much/too long of a refeed means all the extra goes right back into fat storage.

however - for all those who continue to make progress doing what they want, then more power to you. i just don't think that a keto newbie should start off with such flexibility.

GhettoSmurf
05-27-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Ironman8
And wasn't there a theory that you should start your carb up before you go to sleep, and then continue the next day?

actually, with a CKD diet, people do carb up for 36 hours sometimes. right when they are done with there depleation session, and then continuing the next day.

so i dont think that only applies to a NHE diet.

bradley
05-27-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by GhettoSmurf


actually, with a CKD diet, people do carb up for 36 hours sometimes. right when they are done with there depleation session, and then continuing the next day.

so i dont think that only applies to a NHE diet.

Yes I am aware of that, but I was referring to a 24 hour carb up(see the post above Ironman8's). Obviously if you are carbing up for more 24 hours you will have to sleep sometime, unless you plan to stay awake for the duration of your carb load.

greekboy80
05-27-2003, 05:36 PM
on my carb up...i wake up on saturday morning and i eat whatever the hell i want all day through sunday night. 36 hours. i am at about 14 percent bodyfat and i am having great results. not anything unusual, the fat is coming off slowly but surely. i also have been doing this on and off for about 2 years. so i think my body is adjusted to it. i would not advise a newbie to do what i do. take time to do it right, then after you get comfortable adjust to what works for you!

Alke
05-28-2003, 07:53 PM
I will be cutting soon and was curious about re-feeds on a cut as well. Would I do this once a week or every two weeks?

Also which carbs would be best for a re-feed while cutting? So far cereal seems to be one choice :D Would I focus on getting more pasta/potatoes in me or more vegetables and fruit?

one more question.........How many cals should one bump up their re-feeds on a cut? I was bumping my cals up an extra 1000 during my bulk, but would I do that for my cut as well?

bryancore
05-28-2003, 08:32 PM
well i've decided that i'm just going to do my carb up one day, either friday or saturday during the week. Ill go 6 hours, probably lunch and dinner. Thanks for the replies guys.

Stryc-9
05-28-2003, 09:16 PM
You really ought to take it longer than six hours.

Assuming full depletion of muscle glycogen - it takes at least 12 hours (I think Lyle M. even recommends 24 hours minimum) for glycogen to be fully resynthesized (that is, to 100% normal levels). 6 hours is just too short a time span to do the job properly - thereby defeating the purpose behind the carb-up in the first place.

bryancore
05-28-2003, 09:56 PM
hmm... maybe the whole day then. Thanks bro.

bradley
05-29-2003, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by bryancore
well i've decided that i'm just going to do my carb up one day, either friday or saturday during the week. Ill go 6 hours, probably lunch and dinner. Thanks for the replies guys.

I agree with Stryc-9. Here is what I posted back on the first page of this thread:


I wouldn't think so assuming that the individual is fully depleted. The enzymes that are involved in storing the glycogen will be what limits the amount of glycogen replenishment. Just cramming in the required amount of carbs over a 6 hour time period is not going to cause glycogen levels to be topped off.

From what I have read you should be able to refill muscle glycogen completely with a 24 hour carb up assuming that you performed a depletion workout before beginning the carb up and a sufficient amount of carbs were consumed during the carb up.

Although the first 6 hours after the depletion workout will be the time when the greatest amount of carbs can be used to refill muscle glycogen

bradley
05-29-2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Kenn
I will be cutting soon and was curious about re-feeds on a cut as well. Would I do this once a week or every two weeks?

Would depend on bf levels, but if I remember correctly you stated in your journal that you are around 12% so I would say at least once a week. Although bf percentage is not the only factor in determining when to refeed.



Also which carbs would be best for a re-feed while cutting? So far cereal seems to be one choice :D Would I focus on getting more pasta/potatoes in me or more vegetables and fruit?

Focus more on simple carbs and then towards the end of your refeed switch to complex sources. Some fruit is also good on a refeed to help replinish liver glycogen.



one more question.........How many cals should one bump up their re-feeds on a cut?

Well you just need to make sure that you are getting over maintenance cals. I have seen it recommend to multiply your maintenance calore level by 1.1 or 1.2. You would need to get no more than 1g of protein per lb. of bw, about 15% fat (make sure to get in some EFA's), and fill in the rest of your daily cals with carbs.


I was bumping my cals up an extra 1000 during my bulk, but would I do that for my cut as well?

Refeeds serve no metabolic purpose when bulking.

GhettoSmurf
05-29-2003, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by bryancore
well i've decided that i'm just going to do my carb up one day, either friday or saturday during the week. Ill go 6 hours, probably lunch and dinner. Thanks for the replies guys.

I'd also agree with Stryc-9. IMO you should carb-up for anywhere between 24 to 48 hours. That's how long i usually see a refeed last.