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wordodd
05-27-2003, 09:56 PM
I am searching for diet recommendations to help me finish off a 4 month cutting cycle. I have probably not had the best diet for the first 3 months but it has been effective (55lbs in 3 months from 230 to 175) I have probably lost muscle throughout and want to minimize any future losses. I have taken Xendarine during the entire cycle and now have some Lipoderm(i know it may be crap but its worth a try). I work a 12 hour day and usually go to bed around 5am and sleep till 11 when I get up and go to the gym. I do work in a very upscale eatery where I have access to many many different foods so almost any food is available.
I think the worst eating habit I have is not eating enough calories(right now I only eat 2x to 3x a day all very clean though) and eating late at night when I get home from work. Please someone give me some ideas about what to eat and when to eat it so I can drop the last 10 lbs of fat I need to.

Odd

lazyman79
05-28-2003, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by wordodd
I am searching for diet recommendations to help me finish off a 4 month cutting cycle. I have probably not had the best diet for the first 3 months but it has been effective (55lbs in 3 months from 230 to 175) I have probably lost muscle throughout and want to minimize any future losses. I have taken Xendarine during the entire cycle and now have some Lipoderm(i know it may be crap but its worth a try). I work a 12 hour day and usually go to bed around 5am and sleep till 11 when I get up and go to the gym. I do work in a very upscale eatery where I have access to many many different foods so almost any food is available.
I think the worst eating habit I have is not eating enough calories(right now I only eat 2x to 3x a day all very clean though) and eating late at night when I get home from work. Please someone give me some ideas about what to eat and when to eat it so I can drop the last 10 lbs of fat I need to.

Odd

Do a CKD diet or TKD. I have never done a tkd, but ckd seems to work faily good while maintaining muscle. Here’s some info I copied for you so you can look at it. Hope it helps.


What is a Ketogenic Diet?
For starters, ketotenic dieting is based upon the removal of nearly all carbohydrates from one's diet for a certain period of time. In the absence of carbohydrates, the body will resort to stored fat as it's primary fuel source. Stored fat is broken down into ketones which the body then uses for energy. In order to enter this state of ketosis, one's liver glycogen must be emptied. Ingested carbohydrates are stored in the liver as glycogen, as well as in the muscles. When the liver is depleted of glycogen, a state of ketosis is achieved. Ketones are a by-product of fat burning, therefore while in a state of ketosis, the body is burning stored fat as it's main source of fuel. I'll bypass the explanation as to why this is such a positive occurrence.
The object of a ketogenic diet is to deplete the liver of it's glycogen stores as quickly as possible so that fat burning occurs. This is done by severely restricting carbohydrates and eating only sources of proteins and fats. On a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet (CKD) carbohydrate restriction lasts for a total of 5-6 days at which time a 1-2 day carbohydrate loading phase begins. The CKD is essentially the Ketogenic Diet for weightlifters, with the carbohydrate loading phase designed to replenish Muscle Glycogen stores so that adequate weight training may occur during the following week.
Many people have brought up the issue that a low carbohydrate diet will cause lethargy and weakness. These people were not mentally strong enough to make it through the first few days until they reached a state of ketosis so they experienced the basic lethargy typically associated with low carb diets. They also did not replace any of the missing calories with fat which caused them to feel miserable due to a lack of adequate calories. They didn't give themselves or the diet a chance to adapt. Just like with anything else, there is a period of adaptation.
This is not a low carbohydrate diet. It is essentially a NO Carbohydrate diet. While on a LOW carbohydrate diet, enough carbs are always eaten to avoid entering into a state of ketosis but not enough carbs or total calories to maintain adequate energy levels. Dropping the carbohydrate count further and raising the fat calories will allow the body to enter ketosis and use ketones, or stored fat as fuel. While in a state of ketosis, one feels energetic and does not experience the general lethargy found with basic LOW carbohydrate diets. Ketones also enable one to maintain regulated insulin levels throughout the day which again will cause one to feel energetic. Below we can see the difference between a basic low carb diet and the Ketogeinc Diet.
Basic LOW Carb Diet:
* weakness
* lethargy
* low insulin levels
* constant hunger
* moderate fat burning
* muscle loss
* low fat intake
* excessively low total calories

Ketogenic Diet:
* energy
* workout intensity
* feelings of well-being
* full and satisfied
* high fat intake
* high level of fat burning
* minimal muscle loss
* total calories no more than 500 below maintenance
Clearly it is obvious which diet is more beneficial as far as fat burning, retaining muscle and general feelings of well being. Plus, with the ketogenic diet, you actually get to eat more food.

How it Works
Now don't get me wrong here. I am not trying to "sell" anyone on a ketogenic diet and there is no product we are pushing here. This article is simply to give people another option; one that my wife and I have had a tremendous amount of success with. Ketogenic dieting is not easy as eliminating carbohydrates from one's daily eating habits is quite difficult. It requires structure, planning and dedication. Many foods are carbohydrate laden that the average person is not even aware of such as fruits and condiments. Basically, on a ketogenic diet one eats meat and fish all day long. It does have it's advantages though as normally restricted foods such as steak, whole eggs, pork chops, pork skins, sausages, meatloaf, burgers (without the bun of course) and salmon are not only permitted, but they are encouraged.
It is quite simple to slip up without even knowing it on this diet. First, understand that even a minimal amount of carbohydrates will shift your body right out of the ketosis/fat burning mode. This is a diet that requires strict attention to detail and absolutely NO cheating during the week. The cheating will come soon enough and plenty enough on the weekends. There is no such thing as just a little bite of that bagel of just one cookie. This diet works absolute wonders as far as fat burning goes but it must be done properly or results will be minimal at best.

Carb Depletion
During the carbohydrate depletion phase (during the week) carbohydrate foods such as fruit, breads, grains, candies, cookies, deserts, catsup, dressings, cereals, etc., etc. are not permitted at all. One must check the label of everything to ensure that there are no carbs. The key is to keep the daily carb count of 20-40 per day. Some people even require less than 20 to achieve ketosis. This basically allows you a total of roughly 4-8 grams of carbohydrates per meal which would preferably come in the form of green vegetables. Watch the dressings as they all have carbohydrates with the exception of vinegar. The only condiments that you can be safe with are mustard and regular, whole mayonnaise. (not low fat or light)
Workouts
While on a CKD, one must tailor their workouts to center around the diet. The carb depletion would begin on Monday and between Monday-Wednesday, the entire body would be trained with weights. In other words, condense the workouts so that they are completed by Wednesday. This will exhaust both your liver glycogen as well as your muscle glycogen. Cardio may continue to be done all week. At the end of the week, one would perform a grueling full body weight training session after which time the carb loading would begin.

Carb Loading
The carbohydrate loading may last anywhere between 12-36 hours although I feel it is best to minimize it to 12-18 hours. It consists of basically a full day of cheating (but there are rules). You need to consume carbohydrates in each meal ranging from 40-120, depending upon the person. The protein stays high but fats must be limited or the total calories will be too high and new fat will be stored. The idea is refill muscle glycogen so that workouts may be performed with some amount of intensity the following week. Fruits are to be avoided as fructose will only refill liver glycogen which will prevent ketosis from being reestablished until later in the week. After the carb load is complete, the depletion phase begins again until the next weekend. During the carb load period, any carbs may be eaten so long as the fat is kept moderately low and there is no fructose (fruit sugar) consumed.

Results
While on a CKD, it is quite common for users to experience total fat loss of up to 2-3 pounds per week. Due to the carbohydrate cycling and manipulation, one will experience weight fluctuations ranging from 2-10 pounds during the carb loading phase. Personally, I went from 10% body fat to 5% in 8 weeks with minimal muscle loss while my wife went from 20% to 15% in an astonishing five weeks. The keys are not cheating at all during the week, knowing the nutritional content of the foods you eat, maintaining structure and not overdoing it on the weekends.





Here tried to post the other part of it, but I dont think it came out right. At least you can see some of the foods permittedin the diet.

KETOGENIC DIET SAMPLE
Food Protein Carbs Fat Calories
4 whole extra large eggs 28 2 28 370
Total meal one 28 2 28 370

One can solid white tuna 37 0 2 170
1.5 tbspns Hellmans real mayo 1 0 16 150
Total meal two 38 0 18 320

4 ounces 85% ground beef 28 0 15 250
1 tbs Hellmans real mayo 0 0 11 100
Total meal three 28 0 2 112

4oz grilled chicken 28 0 2 112
1.5 tbs Hellmans real mayo 0 0 16 145
1 tbs natural peanut butter 3 3 12 132
Total meal 4 31 0 30 390

Optimum Protein Diet 30 3 5 200
1 tablespoon flaxseed oil 0 0 14 125
Sugar free fat free jello 1 1 0 10
Total meal five 31 4 30 335

DAILY TOTALS 156 13 132 1765

NOTES:
The above nutritional info may not be exact but it is close. This chart is designed not to be perfect but to provide a basic idea of a low carb day on a ketogenic diet.

Any meat or fish is acceptable provided it is not cooked with breading or sauces.
Green leafy vegetables are permitted in moderation.
The only toppings or dressings permitted are whole mayonaise and oil.
This sample is based upon a 170 pound male at a caloric intake at 10.5 times his weight. One should adjust the calories to remain at 10-12 times his/her body weight. Calories should be adjusted by adding fat, or a minimal amount of protein. No carbs.

GhettoSmurf
05-28-2003, 04:42 AM
IMO if you only eat 2-3x a day, you should really eat more. what does your diet look like right now?

bradley
05-28-2003, 10:19 AM
If you want to minimize muscle loss then I would suggest slowing down your weight loss by creating just a small calorie deficit through diet, cardio, or a combination of the two.

Adjust your daily calorie intake so that you are losing about a pound a week. You should be getting in an adequate supply of protein (1g per lb. of bw) and also plenty of EFA's in your diet. I would recommend getting somewhere between 25-30% of your daily cals from fat (mostly healthy sources like fish oil, flax oil, nuts, natty pb, oily fish, olive oil, etc).

You can lose weight by eating 3 larger meals but I would recommend splitting up your daily calories over 5-6 smaller meals throughout the day, spaced about 2-3 hours apart. If you want you can post an example of your average daily diet which would help so we can get an idea of what type of foods you are eating.

wordodd
05-28-2003, 09:38 PM
Alright let me post today's meals and activities so far to help make some recommendations

Wake up - 1pm(working till 3am)
Off day for weights so I did 1 hour of cardio

Took 2 xenadrine 30 mins prior

Bike (25 mins moderate intensity)
Rowing Cycle 2 machine (15 mins)
Elliptical trainer Interval training(not HITT) 20 mins

Home around 2:30

Meal 1
3:00 PM Protein w/ water 220 44 2 2
3:00 PM Natural PB 35 3.5 8 7

Took 2 more Xenadine around 5:00 and went to work

Meal 2
5:15 PM Turkey 5.oz 150 30 3.75 2.5

Meal 3
3 9:00 PM Turkey 5 oz. 150 30 3.75 2.5
3 9:00 PM Egg(white), Hardboiled 18 4 0 1

All the numbers are broken down in this order, Calories, Protien, Fat and carbohydrates.. I know i need to eat more and will try to repeat Meal 3 and meal 1 one more time today

SoulOfKoRea
05-28-2003, 09:53 PM
you should really get a meal in before your cardio

eat more often, 6 meals a day(3 small meals, 3 snacks in between) spaced out every 2.5-3 hours

I've never taken Xenadrine but are you supposed to take that many a day?

your Calories seem ridiculously low, unless you weigh 3 stones, does that even equal 1000 kCals?

wordodd
05-28-2003, 09:57 PM
I really really hate eating first thing in the morning and now that I am trying to do a CKD I am not sure what to eat. Also, the directions on the bottle say 4 spaced out throughout the day so I think I am dosing correctly. I am not sure what I can eat on a CKD diet that is high cal, high protien and low to no carb. I am trying to stay under 30 carbs a day and under 20 if possible.

Odd

lazyman79
05-29-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by wordodd
I am not sure what I can eat on a CKD diet that is high cal, high protien and low to no carb. I am trying to stay under 30 carbs a day and under 20 if possible.

Odd

Look at a lot of the meat products. Burgers and bacon for example have high cals, fat and an ok amount of protein.

wordodd
05-29-2003, 02:02 AM
one problem though for me personally is that I do not eat pork or red meat...its a health thing with bad genes giving me very high cholesteral(sp) Think thats possible to work around? One other question how bad is it to eat before you go to sleep(like 30 mins or less before you go to sleep)

Odd

bradley
05-29-2003, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by wordodd
one problem though for me personally is that I do not eat pork or red meat...its a health thing with bad genes giving me very high cholesteral(sp) Think thats possible to work around?
Odd

Seeing as how you do not eat pork or red meat it will make the CKD more challenging but not impossible. Do you eat whole eggs? That would be a good start and also it looks as though you will have to get most of your protein from fish and chicken and most of your fat will have to come from oils (olive oil, fish oil, etc.) Nuts are a good option but you have to watch the carb content. Also things like cheese and full fat salad dressings can help but you have to be careful about the carbs. Just start checking out labels in the supermarket and find foods that will fit into your diet.

With that being said I would just go with a more balanced diet. There is nothing magical about a CKD that will cause fat to just melt off of you.


One other question how bad is it to eat before you go to sleep(like 30 mins or less before you go to sleep)

It all comes down to your calorie balance at the end of the day. I recommend eating something right before bed. Preferably a meal that contains some slow digesting protein along with some fat. Maybe some cottage cheese and a few nuts or peanut butter.

bradley
05-29-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by wordodd
Alright let me post today's meals and activities so far to help make some recommendations

Wake up - 1pm(working till 3am)
Off day for weights so I did 1 hour of cardio

***I would eat a small meal and then perform cardio. Might have to wait a bit to let your food digest.

Took 2 xenadrine 30 mins prior

Bike (25 mins moderate intensity)
Rowing Cycle 2 machine (15 mins)
Elliptical trainer Interval training(not HITT) 20 mins

Home around 2:30

Meal 1
3:00 PM Protein w/ water 220 44 2 2
3:00 PM Natural PB 35 3.5 8 7

***Go with olive oil or some liquid fat rather than the pb, which will slow digestion.

Took 2 more Xenadine around 5:00 and went to work

Meal 2
5:15 PM Turkey 5.oz 150 30 3.75 2.5

***Need to add fat in here.

Meal 3
3 9:00 PM Turkey 5 oz. 150 30 3.75 2.5
3 9:00 PM Egg(white), Hardboiled 18 4 0 1
***Need more fat in this meal.

All the numbers are broken down in this order, Calories, Protien, Fat and carbohydrates.. I know i need to eat more and will try to repeat Meal 3 and meal 1 one more time today

You definitely need to eat more meals and also get a lot more fat in your diet since you are trying to stick with a CKD. Basically just get 1g of protein per lb. of bw and fill in the rest of your cals with fat and keep carbs <20g a day.

Like I said in my previous post you are going to have to rely heavily on oils to get in the amount of fat that you need when performing a CKD. There is nothing wrong with this but the food choices will get old quickly IMO.

Try to maintain a small caloric deficit and don't cut cals too quickly. Also make sure that you are getting proper EFA's in your diet.

Also I when training on a CKD you really only need to train the two days following the carb load and then a depletion workout at the end of the week before beginning your carb load. I would stick to moderate intensity cardio so as to make sure that you had plenty of glycogen for you workouts.