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View Full Version : Honey for post workout sugar??



Theroc
05-29-2003, 09:08 AM
What do think about using real honey for your post workout carb instead of dextrose?(Mix it in your shake)


thanks,
Roc

Berserker
05-29-2003, 09:18 AM
I've been wondering the same thing. Tryska said its a natural hayfever remedy. But I don't like taking in all that sugar. Was thinking of doing the same thing.
Not sure how it would blend.

gopher
05-29-2003, 09:35 AM
Honey is a great post workout carb source for your protein shake. When I'm bulking I add 1 tbls to my post workout shake.

pinoy
05-29-2003, 09:36 AM
i'm not sure but i think honey is 1/2 fructose...

Stryc-9
05-29-2003, 10:48 AM
Googled it and found this:

"...carbohydrates present [in honey] are the monosaccharides fructose (38.2%) and glucose (31%); and disaccharides (~9%) sucrose, maltose, isomaltose, maltulose, turanose and kojibiose. There are also some oligosaccharides present (4.2%), including erlose, theanderose and panose, formed from incomplete breakdown of the higher saccharides present in nectar and honeydew..."

GhettoSmurf
05-29-2003, 11:08 AM
i know some people that use honey. but IMO i think dextrose or maltodextrine would be the best.

or have you thought about getting some gatorade powder or powerade powder? both contain dextrose i believe.

SoulOfKoRea
05-29-2003, 11:14 AM
*but gatorade power has partially hydrogenated oils, I'm coming to believe that EVERYTHING has them, oh well who cares anymore, they are only a minor ingredient

Theroc
05-29-2003, 12:07 PM
How much do I add (Honey, Dextrose or gatarade powder?)to my post work out shake.(In carbs)

thanks,
Roc

Stryc-9
05-29-2003, 12:41 PM
I add anywhere between 50 to 100 grams of dextrose - depending on how heavy I've lifted and how depleted I feel (e.g., I will generally take the most after a brutal leg session).

bradley
05-29-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Theroc
How much do I add (Honey, Dextrose or gatarade powder?)to my post work out shake.(In carbs)

thanks,
Roc

I have seen it recommended to take in approx. .6-1g of carbs per kg of bodyweight. You can add a tablespoon or two of honey as a little fructose is beneficial postworkout.

tarturon
05-29-2003, 02:58 PM
Is sugar important after a workout? (even if you dont take creatine)

As for sugar with creatine... where can you get Dextrose? any online store?
and is the ratio 5g creatine 35g Dextrose sounds good? for 175lbs

bradley
05-29-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by tarturon
Is sugar important after a workout? (even if you dont take creatine)

As for sugar with creatine... where can you get Dextrose? any online store?
and is the ratio 5g creatine 35g Dextrose sounds good? for 175lbs

Yes carbs are important after a workout. Carbs will replenish muscle glycogen after training and will also help in recovery. Here is an article that has some good info:
http://www.poweringmuscles.com/musclerecovery.asp?article_number=6


I would say take in at least 50g of dextrose postworkout which should be enough for an insulin spike, along with your creatine. A quick digesting protein such as whey would also be a good addition to your postworkout shake.

You can purchase dextrose at most online supplement companies, but I would recommend checking to see if you can get it in your home town. Places that sell home brewing supplies will have it more than likely. This will save you a few bucks rather than buying online.

MrWebb78
05-29-2003, 04:33 PM
i used to add honey to my postworkout shakes....but one day i reached into my gym bag to take out the honey and the lid must have popped open and everything in my bag was sticky with honey:(

raniali
05-29-2003, 04:47 PM
^ pervert!

gopher
05-29-2003, 05:14 PM
I think that you guys are over thinking this. Yes High GI carbs are a very good idea post workout if you are bulking. Even more important is getting enough calories. It won't make a huge difference if your carbs are from dextrose,maltodextrine, honey, grape juice, or oatmeal for that matter. Yes I said oatmeal. Even lower GI carbs eaten in large quantities will cause an isuline spike. Now before everyone jumps all over me for saying this, I didn't say oatmeal was the best choice. The higher GI carbs will give you a bigger spike I just don't think there is that big a difference in the higher GI carbs. The important thing is that you take in enough calories after you workout and throughout the day.

pinoy
05-29-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by gopher
I think that you guys are over thinking this. Yes High GI carbs are a very good idea post workout if you are bulking. Even more important is getting enough calories. It won't make a huge difference if your carbs are from dextrose,maltodextrine, honey, grape juice, or oatmeal for that matter. Yes I said oatmeal. Even lower GI carbs eaten in large quantities will cause an isuline spike. Now before everyone jumps all over me for saying this, I didn't say oatmeal was the best choice. The higher GI carbs will give you a bigger spike I just don't think there is that big a difference in the higher GI carbs. The important thing is that you take in enough calories after you workout and throughout the day.

agreed. i've been taking oats in my post workout shakes for awhile now

AJ_11
05-30-2003, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by pinoy


agreed. i've been taking oats in my post workout shakes for awhile now

Actually so do I. I like a bowl of oatmeal over a malto shake anyways.

bradley
05-30-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by gopher
I think that you guys are over thinking this. Yes High GI carbs are a very good idea post workout if you are bulking. Even more important is getting enough calories. It won't make a huge difference if your carbs are from dextrose,maltodextrine, honey, grape juice, or oatmeal for that matter. Yes I said oatmeal. Even lower GI carbs eaten in large quantities will cause an isuline spike. Now before everyone jumps all over me for saying this, I didn't say oatmeal was the best choice. The higher GI carbs will give you a bigger spike I just don't think there is that big a difference in the higher GI carbs. The important thing is that you take in enough calories after you workout and throughout the day.

I agree with what you are saying but high GI carbs would be the most effecient at refilling muscle glycogen, and unless you are trying to get rid of that last little bit of stubborn bf I wouldn't think the insulin spike would be that detrimental to your diet.

Also I do think it matters when referring to getting your carbs from honey or grape juice. A little fructose is beneficial but too much can cause spillover into fat stores. This is true when eating at or above maintenance cals but if you are eating below maintenance then it really does not matter.

bradley
05-30-2003, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by AJ_11


Actually so do I. I like a bowl of oatmeal over a malto shake anyways.

A bowl of oats would work but some people would have a hard time stomaching a big bowl of oats postworkout. Refilling muscle glycogen as quickly as possible is the main goal and high GI carbs will do that the best when referring to postworkout carbs.

BobbyRS
05-30-2003, 06:48 AM
I would say take in at least 50g of dextrose postworkout which should be enough for an insulin spike

How much would you say would be enough to cause an insulin spike for the preworkout?

SoulOfKoRea
05-30-2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by BobbyRS


How much would you say would be enough to cause an insulin spike for the preworkout?

you wouldn't want to spike insulin preworkout, because the glycogen stores aren't depleted

GhettoSmurf
05-30-2003, 07:54 AM
why would you want an insulin spike pre-workout?

BobbyRS
05-30-2003, 07:57 AM
you wouldn't want to spike insulin preworkout, because the glycogen stores aren't depleted

I should of said, how much preworkout to cause a insulin spike during workout?

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7331&perpage=25&highlight=GI&pagenumber=1

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31488

bradley
05-30-2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by BobbyRS


I should of said, how much preworkout to cause a insulin spike during workout?

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7331&perpage=25&highlight=GI&pagenumber=1

http://www.wannabebigforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31488

I am not sure about an exact number but I would say approximately 60g would be enough to cause an insulin spike, but it would also depend on the type of carb and if anything else was eaten along with the carbs.

BobbyRS
05-30-2003, 09:07 AM
I am not sure about an exact number but I would say approximately 60g would be enough to cause an insulin spike, but it would also depend on the type of carb and if anything else was eaten along with the carbs.

It would be dextrose or a combo of dex and malt if need be. It would be mixed within my preworkout shake.

1 cup ff milk
1 scoop whey (20g)
whatever amount of carbs needed????

60g is about how much I use for post workout. A 30/30 combo of dex and malt mixed in with a scoop of whey (20g) with fish oil and olive oil.

prof
05-30-2003, 09:19 AM
I use table sugar, whey, and honey, but I have no idea if it's actually working

pinoy
05-30-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by prof
I use table sugar, whey, and honey, but I have no idea if it's actually working

too much fructose

GhettoSmurf
05-30-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by prof
I use table sugar, whey, and honey, but I have no idea if it's actually working

IMO i wouldnt use the table sugar. table sugar is sucrose. and i dont think sucrose is even that high on the GI

pinoy
05-30-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by bradley


A bowl of oats would work but some people would have a hard time stomaching a big bowl of oats postworkout. Refilling muscle glycogen as quickly as possible is the main goal and high GI carbs will do that the best when referring to postworkout carbs.

i actually grind my oats till it's a powder and put it in my post workout shakes. and i don't see why you need to have high gi carbs when simply having whey protein and any carb will be enough. high gi carbs will replenish muscle glycogen faster than oats but there is no evidence that replenishing muscle glycogen faster has any more benefits

bradley
05-30-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by pinoy


i actually grind my oats till it's a powder and put it in my post workout shakes.

I actually was replying to the post that AJ11 made:

I like a bowl of oatmeal over a malto shake anyways.

Although whether you grind up the oats with your whey or eat them out of a bowl they would still sit heavier in your stomach compared to dextrose/maltodextrin. Some people have a hard enough time holding down anything postworkout, and I just wanted to point that out.


Originally posted by pinoy
and i don't see why you need to have high gi carbs when simply having whey protein and any carb will be enough. high gi carbs will replenish muscle glycogen faster than oats but there is no evidence that replenishing muscle glycogen faster has any more benefits

The high GI index carbs will cause more of an insulin response than the low GI carbs which is important postworkout. I posted this article in a previous post but I will post it again.
http://www.poweringmuscles.com/musclerecovery.asp?article_number=6

bradley
05-30-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by prof
I use table sugar, whey, and honey, but I have no idea if it's actually working

I would switch out the table sugar for some dextrose or maltodextrin, because the sucrose is just a combination of glucose and fructose.

You can find dextrose at a store that sells home brewing supplies, or you could just eat some candy that contains dextrose like smarties.

bradley
05-30-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by GhettoSmurf


IMO i wouldnt use the table sugar. table sugar is sucrose. and i dont think sucrose is even that high on the GI

approx. 60 on the GI

bradley
05-30-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by BobbyRS


It would be dextrose or a combo of dex and malt if need be. It would be mixed within my preworkout shake.

1 cup ff milk
1 scoop whey (20g)
whatever amount of carbs needed????

60g is about how much I use for post workout. A 30/30 combo of dex and malt mixed in with a scoop of whey (20g) with fish oil and olive oil.

I personally do not really worry about creating an insulin spike pre-workout (as I think I mentioned to you in another thread). My above response was the amount of carbs I thought would probably be necessary to create an insulin spike.

If you want to take in a preworkout shake then I would recommend going with approximately 30g of malto and 15g of whey about 30 minutes before training.

pinoy
05-30-2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by bradley

The high GI index carbs will cause more of an insulin response than the low GI carbs which is important postworkout. I posted this article in a previous post but I will post it again.
http://www.poweringmuscles.com/musclerecovery.asp?article_number=6

i still don't find a need for high gi post workout. here's a small portion of a study, if you would like the whole study please ask.

"The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes."

since the body doesn't need the presence of insulin for 30-60 min. after exercise why take high-gi?

bradley
05-30-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by pinoy


i still don't find a need for high gi post workout. here's a small portion of a study, if you would like the whole study please ask.

"The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes."

since the body doesn't need the presence of insulin for 30-60 min. after exercise why take high-gi?

There is more to it than just glycogen replenishment. Ingesting high GI carbs will stimulate the release of insulin which also will decrease cortisol levels.

bradley
05-30-2003, 04:43 PM
Here is a study that was posted in another thread:

Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation.

Kraemer WJ, Volek JS, Bush JA, Putukian M, Sebastianelli WJ.

The Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306, USA. wkraemer@gw.bsu.edu

Nine resistance-trained men consumed either a protein-carbohydrate supplement or placebo for 1 wk in a crossover design separated by 7 days. The last 3 days of each treatment, subjects performed resistance exercise. The supplement was consumed 2 h before and immediately after the workout, and blood was obtained before and after exercise (0, 15, 30, 45, and 60 min postexercise). Lactate, growth hormone, and testosterone were significantly (P </= 0.05) elevated immediately postexercise. The lactate response was significantly lower during supplementation on days 2 and 3. Growth hormone and prolactin responses on day 1 were significantly higher during supplementation. After exercise, testosterone declined below resting values during supplementation. Cortisol decreased immediately postexercise on day 1; the response was diminished on days 2 and 3. Glucose and insulin were significantly elevated by 30 min during supplementation and remained stable during placebo. Insulin-like growth factor-I was higher during supplementation on days 2 and 3. These data indicate that protein-carbohydrate supplementation before and after training can alter the metabolic and hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise.

pinoy
05-30-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by bradley
Here is a study that was posted in another thread:

Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation.

Kraemer WJ, Volek JS, Bush JA, Putukian M, Sebastianelli WJ.

The Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306, USA. wkraemer@gw.bsu.edu

Nine resistance-trained men consumed either a protein-carbohydrate supplement or placebo for 1 wk in a crossover design separated by 7 days. The last 3 days of each treatment, subjects performed resistance exercise. The supplement was consumed 2 h before and immediately after the workout, and blood was obtained before and after exercise (0, 15, 30, 45, and 60 min postexercise). Lactate, growth hormone, and testosterone were significantly (P </= 0.05) elevated immediately postexercise. The lactate response was significantly lower during supplementation on days 2 and 3. Growth hormone and prolactin responses on day 1 were significantly higher during supplementation. After exercise, testosterone declined below resting values during supplementation. Cortisol decreased immediately postexercise on day 1; the response was diminished on days 2 and 3. Glucose and insulin were significantly elevated by 30 min during supplementation and remained stable during placebo. Insulin-like growth factor-I was higher during supplementation on days 2 and 3. These data indicate that protein-carbohydrate supplementation before and after training can alter the metabolic and hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise.

nice study but it doesn't say whether the carbs used were high or low gi.

Theroc
05-30-2003, 04:52 PM
Pinoy are you filipino?

bradley
05-30-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by pinoy


nice study but it doesn't say whether the carbs used were high or low gi.

It does state that insulin and glucose levels were significantly elevated.

pinoy
05-30-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by bradley


It does state that insulin and glucose levels were significantly elevated.

yea it stated insulin and glucose were elevated by taking the protein and carb combo. still doesn't prove whether carbs were high or low gi.

i recommend trying oats for postworkout for a few weeks and report to us the results, it's only for a few weeks anyway, you will never go back to that dextrose mix ;)

pinoy
05-30-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Theroc
Pinoy are you filipino?

yep :cool:

bradley
05-30-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by pinoy


yea it stated insulin and glucose were elevated by taking the protein and carb combo. still doesn't prove whether carbs were high or low gi.

Agreed, but it still backs up my point about the positive effects that insulin has on cortisol levels which was the reason I posted the abstract.

pinoy
05-30-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by bradley


Agreed, but it still backs up my point about the positive effects that insulin has on cortisol levels which was the reason I posted the abstract.

oats still provide a sufficient insulin spike without putting a tire in your waist ;) . you also need to remember after a workout, you are very insulin sensitive.

Theroc
05-30-2003, 05:15 PM
figured you where on your login name. My mom is filipino!

bradley
05-30-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by pinoy


oats still provide a sufficient insulin spike without putting a tire in your waist ;) . you also need to remember after a workout, you are very insulin sensitive.

I am not saying that oats will not work, but it would also take a lot more oats to cause an insulin spike than it would if you were consuming a higher GI carb. It would also take a large amount of carbs postworkout to cause spillover into fat stores, which really isn't an issue unless you are downing an insane amount of dextrose.

AJ_11
05-31-2003, 05:08 PM
I think that in the end it is personal preference. Take for example whey. Some people choose whey isolates and some concentrate, both will do the trick just one takes a little longer. So as mention earlier, oat will do the trick but will take a little longer. But when you are cutting I find that every little bit helps.

I prefer oats, whether it be a bowl of oatmeal or in a shake(usually in a shake) I find that it is working for me. That is what is the most important factor what works for yourself through trail and error rather than studies.

pinoy
05-31-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by AJ_11
. So as mention earlier, oat will do the trick but will take a little longer.

yea i don't see anything wrong with oats digesting a little bit longer, since the body doesn't need the presence of insulin for 30-60 min after a workout, which by then oats will be digested

bradley
06-01-2003, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by pinoy


yea i don't see anything wrong with oats digesting a little bit longer, since the body doesn't need the presence of insulin for 30-60 min after a workout, which by then oats will be digested

The quicker you get an insulin spike the less time the body will be in a catabolic state post training.

pinoy
06-01-2003, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by bradley


The quicker you get an insulin spike the less time the body will be in a catabolic state post training.

yea but taking any form of carb will stop catabolism, just that high gi carbs will stop it faster, how much faster? not that much to make a big impact

bradley
06-01-2003, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by pinoy


yea but taking any form of carb will stop catabolism, just that high gi carbs will stop it faster, how much faster? not that much to make a big impact

Every little bit helps:D

BobbyRS
06-02-2003, 01:55 PM
I personally do not really worry about creating an insulin spike pre-workout.

Curious, as to why not?

bradley
06-02-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by BobbyRS


Curious, as to why not?

I train at 5 a.m. in the morning and usually wake up around 3:15, and I usually eat first thing when I wake up. My first meal contains 40g of whey protein in water and 33g of carbs from whole wheat toast. Eating this meal and then eating another meal before training in order to increase insulin levels would be too many calories IMO. If I were training at another time then I would more than likely take in a small preworkout shake, which would ideally consist of something like 35g of malto and 20g of whey.

BobbyRS
06-03-2003, 06:41 AM
I train at 5 a.m. in the morning and usually wake up around 3:15, and I usually eat first thing when I wake up. My first meal contains 40g of whey protein in water and 33g of carbs from whole wheat toast. Eating this meal and then eating another meal before training in order to increase insulin levels would be too many calories IMO. If I were training at another time then I would more than likely take in a small preworkout shake, which would ideally consist of something like 35g of malto and 20g of whey.

Oh, okay. I was just curious if you had something against it. Thanks for the reply.

AJ_11
06-03-2003, 07:28 AM
I don't take any carbs pre workout. I used to but actually really found that strength levels suffer. This is going from my experience for my body, so now I usually have some whey whith olive oil and EFA.

Seems to be good so far, and I usually take in oats post, sometimes I will have a malto shake during, Depends on feeling.