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unshift
05-31-2003, 11:46 PM
hey everyone

i just have a couple questions and am looking for you guys to critique my new plan to maximize fat loss and gain LBM

just some background, im 5'7 280lbs so im pretty overweight... i have a good amount of muscle (been lifting for a while) so i'd say i could go down to 200lbs or so

after every workout i'm doing about 10 mins regular moderaly intense cardio, followed by 10 mins of HIIT. i'm trying to up my metabolism as much as possible so i do lifts that will help that... (squats, "down the row" curls, etc). i think 20 mins of HIIT after every workout would be overdoing it since i'm on a 4 day split, but on wednesday (no lifting), 10 mins regular and 20 mins HIIT is not out of the question

as for meals:

7:30am, pre-workout
20g whey
1/2 cup cheerios

10am, post-workout
met-rx shake (40g protein, other vitamins/etc)
1 cup cheerios
1 piece of toast with natural PB

12pm
turkey sandwich

2pm
natural PB sandwich

4pm
met-rx bar (if i can't make anything in time for work) or salad

6pm
family dinner, usually some type of beef or chicken

8pm
45g whey protein
2 pieces of toast with natural PB

10pm
45g whey protein
2 scrambled eggs

i figure i need to get most of my calories from protein if i'm trying to maximize fat loss and muscle gain simultaneously and save carbs for mostly pre/post workout and bread for sandwiches

using the 12XBW calculator, my maintenance is supposedly 3360 cals but i'm trying to go for 2000-2500 cals per day with roughly 200-250g protein.

now my two questions...
how can i keep my metabolism going as fast as possible throughout the day? im eating 6 meals and doing HIIT but how will i know for sure that its as high as can be?

also, should i ignore mild hunger pangs in between meals? (usually between the 12pm, 2pm, 4pm meals) or will ignoring them just slow down my metabolism?

i'm looking to lose 3lbs/week with this plan, as i have a high bodyfat percentage i think that this goal can be met.

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

pinoy
05-31-2003, 11:58 PM
i think you need to cut down on the breads. also you're combining high fats with carbs which should be avoided. you need to include some EFA's like fish/flax/olive oil. i would also cut out the met-rx bar. eat some whole food, if you're in a rush make a meal before hand. and the 10pm meal - change the whey for some casein like cottage cheese, best to take slow digesting proteins before bed. and for the hunger pangs, you should ignore them because you're eating every 2 hours, drink lots of water it may help

bradley
06-01-2003, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by unshift
as for meals:

7:30am, pre-workout
20g whey
1/2 cup cheerios

10am, post-workout
met-rx shake (40g protein, other vitamins/etc)
1 cup cheerios
1 piece of toast with natural PB

12pm
turkey sandwich

2pm
natural PB sandwich

4pm
met-rx bar (if i can't make anything in time for work) or salad

6pm
family dinner, usually some type of beef or chicken

8pm
45g whey protein
2 pieces of toast with natural PB

10pm
45g whey protein
2 scrambled eggs

i figure i need to get most of my calories from protein if i'm trying to maximize fat loss and muscle gain simultaneously and save carbs for mostly pre/post workout and bread for sandwiches

I think getting 1g of protein per lb. of bodyweight will be plenty. You also need to increase your EFA's. Maybe add in some fish oil or flax oil. I would also drop the peanut butter post workout because it just slow the digestion of your postworkout meal which is not ideal.



using the 12XBW calculator, my maintenance is supposedly 3360 cals but i'm trying to go for 2000-2500 cals per day with roughly 200-250g protein.

The 12*bw formula might provide you a rough estimate but that is really it. You say that you have a higher bf so I am sure that you will need to eat less than 3360 cal. I would just adjust cals until you are losing the desired amount of weight each week. Although I think 3lbs. a week will be pushing it. I would probably aim for two pounds a week and if you start to notice significant strength losses I would bump cals up a bit.



now my two questions...
how can i keep my metabolism going as fast as possible throughout the day? im eating 6 meals and doing HIIT but how will i know for sure that its as high as can be?


I don't think anyone every knows exactly how high their metabolism is or how high it can go. You just have to keep playing around with different variables and see what yields the best result. I think you will be doing plenty with your current routine.



also, should i ignore mild hunger pangs in between meals? (usually between the 12pm, 2pm, 4pm meals) or will ignoring them just slow down my metabolism?


I think some hunger is to be expected but if you are having hunger pangs immediately after you are eating then you might want to think about eating more. If they are coming close to your next scheduled meal then that should be okay. You could add in some fibrous veggies which could help keep you feeling full longer. Not eating enough cals will slow down your metabolism.



i'm looking to lose 3lbs/week with this plan, as i have a high bodyfat percentage i think that this goal can be met.


I think that is an ambitious weight loss goal, and I think 2lbs. per week would be a better goal. I am not saying that 3lbs a week can't be done but you might end up sacrificing LBM in the process.

bradley
06-01-2003, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by pinoy
i think you need to cut down on the breads. also you're combining high fats with carbs which should be avoided.

If you are in a caloric deficit at the end of the day the above is insignificant.

pinoy
06-01-2003, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by bradley


If you are in a caloric deficit at the end of the day the above is insignificant.

yes that may be true but he has a meal which just have carbs and fats, little protein. for cutting it would be best to have protein/carb meals or protein/fat meals, just my opinion.

The_Chicken_Daddy
06-01-2003, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by pinoy


yes that may be true but he has a meal which just have carbs and fats, little protein. for cutting it would be best to have protein/carb meals or protein/fat meals, just my opinion.

That's just theory.

Doesn't really work in real life.

unshift
06-01-2003, 09:43 AM
thanks for the advice guys, i'm going food shopping today and starting tomorrow :)

Behemoth
06-01-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by bradley


If you are in a caloric deficit at the end of the day the above is insignificant.

I hear you say this time and time again, and while I don't disagree with you. Can you say that eating 25g of protein, 75g of satty fats and the rest of your cals filled in with high GI carbs would have the same effect on a weightloss as a well planned diet? I think not.

restless
06-01-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth


I hear you say this time and time again, and while I don't disagree with you. Can you say that eating 25g of protein, 75g of satty fats and the rest of your cals filled in with high GI carbs would have the same effect on a weightloss as a well planned diet? I think not.

No it wouldn't, but it isn't a fair comparison is it? Of course the amount of protein will make a huge difference, but something like GI will only hurt a weight loss program in the sense that it can screw blood sugar levels and thus ruin appetite control.

Behemoth
06-01-2003, 04:10 PM
What? That's all that GI matters about? Is hunger? So if you can control your hunger, eating high fructose corn syrup daily is the same as oats and sweet potatoes?

bradley
06-01-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth


I hear you say this time and time again, and while I don't disagree with you. Can you say that eating 25g of protein, 75g of satty fats and the rest of your cals filled in with high GI carbs would have the same effect on a weightloss as a well planned diet? I think not.

You are making an extreme example with the above statement. I repeatedly say that if you get in adequate amounts of protein and EFAs then it really doesn't matter where the rest of your calories come from as far as weight loss is concerned.


Here is something that you might enjoy reading:)http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=ea25b4f4d33b6ea5&rnum=1

bradley
06-01-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
What? That's all that GI matters about? Is hunger? So if you can control your hunger, eating high fructose corn syrup daily is the same as oats and sweet potatoes?

As far as weight loss, yes. I think eating oats and sweet potatoes would be a lot healthier for your body, but they are not going to magically make you drop pounds.

A calorie is a calorie although some are more beneficial than others. A tablespoon of flax will have more health benefits than a tablespoon of lard but they are both 9 calories per gram.

Behemoth
06-01-2003, 05:48 PM
Thanks for the article Bradley.

This is quite a new concept for me to grasp thus far.

To reiterate and make sure I don't screw something up. If tomorrow for lunch I feel like having a can of tuna and a bagel as opposed to a tuna sandwich on wheat bread. Just so long as I can control my hunger from the bouncing blood sugar, I will reach my dieting goal just as quickly as if I were eating whole wheat bread?


Another thought just came to mind. When bulking, why would carb sources matter then? You'd think that if different carb sources played the same role when it comes to weight manipulation, then eating poor carb choices would be better for muscle gain. Since it all comes down to cal in VS cals out. Plus the carbs will have the crazy effect on blood sugar and you'll be able to eat more of them.

bradley
06-01-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
To reiterate and make sure I don't screw something up. If tomorrow for lunch I feel like having a can of tuna and a bagel as opposed to a tuna sandwich on wheat bread. Just so long as I can control my hunger from the bouncing blood sugar, I will reach my dieting goal just as quickly as if I were eating whole wheat bread?

Yes, although once you got down to the low bf% you might run into some trouble.



Another thought just came to mind. When bulking, why would carb sources matter then? You'd think that if different carb sources played the same role when it comes to weight manipulation, then eating poor carb choices would be better for muscle gain. Since it all comes down to cal in VS cals out. Plus the carbs will have the crazy effect on blood sugar and you'll be able to eat more of them.

Well when you are above maintenance calories and insulin levels are high you will limit the amount of bodyfat that is burned (obviously) and any dietary fat will be stored as fat. You really don't have to worry about the carbs themselves being stored as bf.

Yes, I have seen it recommend for so called "hardgainers" to focus on eating high GI carbs to promote hunger, but most people do not have problems eating enough cals. You are correct in your idea though.

Eating high GI carbs all the time would be a good way to add muscle but I am sure that a lot of bf would come along with it.

Behemoth
06-01-2003, 09:10 PM
Would the same BF increase come along with the muscle if they were low GI carbs as oppose to high GI?

bradley
06-02-2003, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Behemoth
Would the same BF increase come along with the muscle if they were low GI carbs as oppose to high GI?

I think in the overall scheme of things you will get the same bf increases. Total calories are the determing factor for weight gain/loss.

Behemoth
06-02-2003, 01:55 PM
Then why not bulk on sweedish fish as opposed to oats just so long as calories are the same? You'd get the same results as I understand it thus far.

Fenbay
06-02-2003, 02:32 PM
Behemoth, I agree that sometimes this stuff seems to be contradictory to either logical thinking or else personal observation.

I suspect some of this stuff is based on the laws of thermodynamics which in the world we know is an unbreakable law, but it still doesn't always make sense.

I think the REAL issue at hand is that the in/out can be radically changed by the body's hormonal/chemical processes. This is about the only way I make sense of this stuff in my own mind. I can justify that through the myriad of processes the body is capable of performing that it can somehow change my resting metabolism and thus change my daily output accordingly. IE: starvation mode versus say high leptin levels from a huge refeed.

I'm still an absolute neophyte with all of this, but I certainly feel like there is a glimmer of understanding thanks mostly to the knowledge dump from all the guys here at WBB. I do take heart that no one has the all the answers yet, but we're all in pursuit of the same goal at least and learn from one another.

bradley
06-02-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
Then why not bulk on sweedish fish as opposed to oats just so long as calories are the same? You'd get the same results as I understand it thus far.

Maybe this will help:)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=b7005ad0ab9a3f07&rnum=22

I also think that having chronically high insulin levels all the time could have other detrimental effects as well, in relation to overall health. Insulin resistance comes to mind.

Behemoth
06-02-2003, 03:00 PM
Thanks again, this stuff is mind boggling.

Now heres a thought. In that article Lyle says that having high blood sugar levels due to the consumption of high GI carbs isn't what makes you fat. But it's the hunger it produces making you eat over maintance calorie level, and since your insulins acting up because of the carbs and your now over BMR it's goona start putting on fat.

BUT, he said in that article that insulin is responsible for pushing calories into fat and muscle cels. He also said that 80% of the fat gain you'll suffer from during a bulk won't be able to be controlled by macronutrient breakdown. So that means your body pretty much has it predestined where the calories are going.

So since high GI carbs will make you hungrier, resulting in you eating over BMR, and you insulin is now very active shutteling calories into fat and muscle cells (which are predetermined) then wouldn't you get the same results as a bulk consisting of low GI carbs... only you'll get there quicker since insulin is more active pushing more calories into both muscle and fat cells?

I probably misunderstood something somewhere and my logic isn't making sense. My question is a little hard to follow too, hopefully you'll understand it.

bradley
06-02-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Behemoth
So since high GI carbs will make you hungrier, resulting in you eating over BMR, and you insulin is now very active shutteling calories into fat and muscle cells (which are predetermined) then wouldn't you get the same results as a bulk consisting of low GI carbs... only you'll get there quicker since insulin is more active pushing more calories into both muscle and fat cells?


I think total carbohydrates are what matters and not the whole high/low GI perspective. If you eat enough low GI carbs you will get an insulin response, and as you already know high GI carbs will cause more of an insulin response compared to low GI carbs.

Say you have two people who eat the same amount of carbs. One eats high GI carbs and one eats low GI carbs. The individual eating the high GI carbs will have higher amounts of insulin in his blood, as compared to the person eating the low GI. This will cause blood sugar levels to drop a lot more rapidly than the person eating the low GI index carbs. This will cause the person eating the high GI carbs to become hungry again because the insulin will still be present in the blood stream even though blood sugar levels have dropped, where as the person eating the low GI carbs will have a more constant blood sugar level thus avoiding the "hormonal hunger."

What I am trying to say is that yes the carbs will get there faster but the same amount of carbs are still being taken in. If you just continue to eat you will soon be eating to far over maintenance. I know he stated that 80% of your cals are predetermined as to where the body will store them but that doesn't mean you can just eat all you want to because the cals are destined for a certain spot. Weight training etc. will change how the cals will be used, hence the reason it is recommended to consume a large amount of calories around training. As Yates says, "you can't force feed muscle growth.":)

I hope I helped in answering your question. The above info comes from what little knowledge that I have regarding nutrition. I believe the information to be accurate but I would not bet the farm on it.

Ace
06-02-2003, 05:39 PM
bradley: Is that THE Lyle Mcdonald in that first link?

Ace
06-02-2003, 06:02 PM
btw...just read that entire discussion. Good stuff there bradley!

Behemoth
06-02-2003, 06:22 PM
It's lyle in both of them