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Joe Black
08-16-2001, 06:02 AM
Some say eat 0 carbs b4 bed.. I.,e taper carbs out at the end of the day...

Some say carbs is fine.....

So whats best and why?

Cackerot69
08-16-2001, 06:06 AM
They say no carbs before bed because they don't know any better.

Have a banana before bed, or a similar amount of fructose from another source. The fructose will saturate the liver with glucose preventing it from breaking down alanine, arginine and other amino's from muscles to saturate itself, aka muscle breakdown.

The_Chicken_Daddy
08-16-2001, 06:18 AM
Rah rah...~sigh~

the doc
08-16-2001, 06:41 AM
I agree with you hulk, as long as one consumes sufficient carbs during the day, and tapering to the evening glycogen stores are adequate. Also, there is some debate as to whether consumption of carbs before sleep suppresses hGH release (powerful fat buring/lypolyotic hormone) via insuling response.

YatesNightBlade
08-16-2001, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Cackerot69
They say no carbs before bed because they don't know any better.

Have a banana before bed, or a similar amount of fructose from another source. The fructose will saturate the liver with glucose preventing it from breaking down alanine, arginine and other amino's from muscles to saturate itself, aka muscle breakdown.

Bollox

Tryska
08-16-2001, 07:01 AM
wait.....

was that cack saying to eat fruit?

:eek:

Cackerot69
08-16-2001, 07:20 AM
There are really no bad carbs, just bad timing. The trick is to know when to eat which.

Spiderman
08-16-2001, 09:16 AM
I agree with Yates. ;)

Joe Black
08-16-2001, 09:26 AM
Spidey : Why do you agree with Yates?

Yates : Why is i bollox?

:D

Tryska
08-16-2001, 09:31 AM
i can't speak for either of them, but from what i understand, fat gets metabolized while sleeping to replenish glycogen stores, so if you were cutting, why would you bypass that process by adding to the stores from outside?

i would say a little protein and a little fat for your last meal, and if it you are gonna have carbs, make it veggies...so you get that fiber too.

Cackerot69
08-16-2001, 09:35 AM
"i can't speak for either of them, but from what i understand, fat gets metabolized while sleeping to replenish glycogen stores, so if you were cutting, why would you bypass that process by adding to the stores from outside?"

You understand incorrectly, muscle is metabolized while sleeping to replenish liver glycogen.

Spiderman
08-16-2001, 09:49 AM
I agree with Yates because I disagree with Cack. He is disagreeing with cacks first post, as am I. I don't believe that fruit will saturate the liver with Glucose during sleep. Its known that eating carbs at nite will store bodyfat on people. (if ya dont' believe me look at all the fat as$es in the U.S.) If you eat protein at nite then you have those amino's for the body to work off of for energy. If you eat carbs (tuttut) more than likely you'll eat to many and the body will store it as fat.

Cackerot69
08-16-2001, 09:52 AM
lmao.

The_Chicken_Daddy
08-16-2001, 10:01 AM
Tra la lala...

Tryska
08-16-2001, 10:04 AM
actually spidey does kinda have a point.....high GI carbs (like a banana) will cause insulin to be released, and insulin doesn't allow lipolysis.....


but cack..you are gonna have to explain to me how muscle is catabolized during sleep...I mean that's when the most muscle damage is repaired..so why would the body rob it's muscle glycogen stores, to send to the liver, and then spend it's time building those stores back up? Your body runs on fat stores while it's sleeping and doing it's repair thing.....I can understand if liver and glycogen stores were empty and you had no fat stores, and you went to bed on an empty stomach...

but it doesn't make sense that you would catabolize during sleep, when that's when your body is repairing itself. if that were the case, why even encourage 8-10 hours of sleep for the sole purpose of recovery?

the doc
08-16-2001, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
...fat gets metabolized while sleeping to replenish glycogen stores, ...

this is impossible for higher order animals. Due to the irreversibility of the oxidation of pyruvate, acetylCoA (metabolite of fats) cannot be turned into glucose. Only protein can be used for gluconeogenesis.

I still disagree with those who say carbs should be consumed before bed for reasons i stated earlier.

the doc
08-16-2001, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
...
but it doesn't make sense that you would catabolize during sleep, when that's when your body is repairing itself. if that were the case, why even encourage 8-10 hours of sleep for the sole purpose of recovery?

Actually there is a rise in hGH during the first few hours of sleep which drops off during the night. concurrently, cortisol levels in the last few hours of sleep rise due to the fasting nature of sleep. This is why a good breakfast immediately upon wakening is vital to prevent muscle loss.

Tryska
08-16-2001, 10:25 AM
okay.....but wait a second.....acetylcoA enters the Krebs Cycle right? provided there are enough amino acids to fuel the cycle, doesn't it eventually come back around to gluconeogenesis? which would actually stand as an argument i guess for protein before bed....


btw...i do concur with you about cortisol level increase during the later hours of sleep. i can see catabolism there, but by that point, whatever you ate before bed becomes a moot point anyway, no?

the doc
08-16-2001, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Tryska
okay.....but wait a second.....acetylcoA enters the Krebs Cycle right? provided there are enough amino acids to fuel the cycle, doesn't it eventually come back around to gluconeogenesis? which would actually stand as an argument i guess for protein before bed....


btw...i do concur with you about cortisol level increase during the later hours of sleep. i can see catabolism there, but by that point, whatever you ate before bed becomes a moot point anyway, no?
i need to think about point one, but i promise you that acetylCoA CANNOT be synthesized into pyruvate. Aminos can, but not via krebs-tca-citrate cycle.

Although technically the oxidation of pyruvate to acetyl coA is a reversible reaction, it is not reversible under biological conditions.
This is the origin of the idea that excess carbs are essentially on an irreversible conveyor belt to be converted to fat.

Bottom line, Fat cannot be converted into glucose

Tryska
08-16-2001, 12:27 PM
k....i found a resource which explains what i'm getting at.....if your interested in geeking it out....go here (http://www.epidemic.org/theFacts/theLiver/fatMetabolismA.html)

it starts lower down the page, and moves to the next, covering liver gluconeogenesis from triglycerides and also krebs cycle use of acetylcoA

the doc
08-16-2001, 01:45 PM
Yes glycerol can be converted to glucose, fatty acids cannot be converted to glucose. Also, consider ketosis, if glycerol was liberated in quantities sufficient to provide glucose, then ketosis would be unobtainable, because the burning of fats would be providing glucose.

Also, look at the numbers, from palmitoyl triglyceride will be obtained 1 glycerol (of which two are needed for gluconeogenesis) and gives 24 acetylCoAs

Thus fat is the absolute worst source for gluconeogenesis

Tryska
08-16-2001, 01:50 PM
but it's what the body uses for energy when carbs are not available, or in a fasting state.

so worst source or not, it's still used.

glucose from carbohydrates first, fat second. Protein, a murky 3rd, but fat stores would have to be thoroughly used up before that happened, and well, in that case you're in a world of sh*t.

and actually.....from what i'm reading here....well i'll just paste it...

In the fasting state fat (triglyceride) storage is turned off and triglyceride stored in adipose tissue begins to be broken down. In this process, each triglyceride molecule is disassembled to form three molecules of free fatty acid and the three carbon glycerol molecule and these are released to the blood.

The liver has the richest blood supply of any organ, and as a consequence has excellent access to circulating fuels. During fasting, free fatty acids are the body’s major fuel while glycerol provides some of the carbon necessary for glucose synthesis. As described above, the liver carries out gluconeogenesis. In that process the liver actively converts two molecules of glycerol (two three carbon molecules) into one molecule of glucose (one six carbon molecule) and releases that glucose to the blood for use by other tissues.

so...where did you get the 1 glycerol molecule from? and if you could point me to that, i would love to compare and contrast...

the doc
08-16-2001, 03:27 PM
I read the website. They are accurate but everything must be put in perspective

lipolysis of 1 fatty acyl triglyceride yields 1 glycerol and 3 fatty acylCoAs.

two glycerols are needed to make one glucose. For the body to synthesize 1 glucose, you would need to metabolize two triglycerides. That is 48 acetylCoAs generated. Not an efficient process. The main purpose of fatty acid metabolism is for oxidative respiration! You could never produce enough glucose from triglycerides without literally dieing from ketoacidosis.

For protein, it is converted to pyruvate in the liver which is readi;y converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

Again this is why ketosis is possible, and also why consumption of to much protein can prevent ketosis. The excess protein is readily converted to glucose, thus preventing the ketogenic state.
Thus, the bottom line is that protein is a much, much better source for gluconeogenesis then glycerol from triglycerides

the doc
08-16-2001, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Tryska
but it's what the body uses for energy when carbs are not available, or in a fasting state.

so worst source or not, it's still used.

glucose from carbohydrates first, fat second. Protein, a murky 3rd, but fat stores would have to be thoroughly used up before that happened, and well, in that case you're in a world of sh*t.



again, its glucose from glycogen/starches/sugars first, protein second, fat is not a significant source.

Maki Riddington
08-16-2001, 03:39 PM
I think either approach is fine. That is saying this without having to explain my stand in a lengthy post.:)

the doc
08-16-2001, 05:08 PM
maki can you elaborate on that?

;)

Tryska
08-16-2001, 05:38 PM
well doc...i guess you and i are just reading different data then.....because the way i learned, and read it, protien goes to creating amino acids...and cellular repair....first....where are you getting this? i tried running searches on the web, and all i'm coming up with is carbs primarily, but fat preferentially in a fasting state? :confused:

Jane
11-18-2001, 08:11 AM
hey this is interesting. what does everyone think?