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kazzy
06-08-2003, 11:10 AM
I was just curious about what you all think about adding soy products to a diet. I've recently seen alot of soy alternatives at the store... soy-dogs, soy-burgers, ect. Even though I don't eat hotdogs, burgers, or any sort of that crap anymore, I think that adding soy-based products would be a good idea. The nutritional information I see on these products seem very impressive:


Meat Hot Dog vs Soy Dog (taken from a pro-soy website)

Various Meat Hot Dogs

Store Brand Light Hot Dogs
1 link = 45 grams, 11 grams fat, 30 mg. cholesterol, 6 grams protein
Ball Game Treats
1 link = 45 grams, 11 grams fat, 45 mg. cholesterol, 5 grams protein
Healthy Choice Beef Hot Dogs
1 link = 50 grams, 2.5 grams fat, 15 mg. cholesterol, 6 grams protein
Fenway Franks
1 link = 57 grams, 16 grams fat, 30 mg. cholesterol, 6 grams protein
Ball Park Hot Dogs
1 link = 45 grams, 13 grams fat, 30 mg. cholesterol, 5 grams protein

Various Soy Hot Dogs

Lightlife Smart Dogs
1 link = 42 grams, 0 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 9 grams protein, 7 grams soy protein
Lightlife Tofu Pups
1 link = 42 grams, 2.5 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 8 grams protein, 8 grams soy protein
Lightlife Wonder Dogs
1 link = 42 grams, 2 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 9 grams protein, 7 grams soy protein
Lightlife Smart Deli Jumbos
1 link = 76 grams, 0 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 16 grams protein, 13 grams soy protein
Lightlife Italian Links (Sausages)
1 link = 40 grams, 2 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 5 grams protein, 5 grams soy protein
Yves the Good Dog
1 link = 52 grams, 1.5 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 13 grams protein, FDA minimum soy protein
Yves Spicy Jumbo Dog
1 link = 75 grams, 1.5 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 19 grams protein, FDA minimum soy protein
Yves Jumbo Veggie Dog
1 link = 75 grams, 0 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 11 grams protein, FDA minimum soy protein
Yves Tofu Dog
1 link = 38 grams, 5 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 9 grams protein, FDA minimum soy protein
Yves Veggie Chili Dog
1 link = 46 grams, 0 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 10 grams protein, FDA minimum soy protein
Yves Veggie Dog
1 link = 46 grams, 0 grams fat, 0 mg. cholesterol, 11 grams protein, FDA minimum soy protein



I've done calculations based on the numbers above. On average a normal hotdog has about 10.7g of fat, while a soy-dog only has 1.3g. Not only that, but the amount of protien in the soy-dogs are considerably higher.

I've heard some stuff about soy and estrogen, which is why I'm not digging into soy-based products right now. I still have a very-mild case of the puffy nipples and I don't want it to get any worse. Apparently, the plant sources of estrogen in soy are weak, approx. 1/1000th of the activity of synthetic estrogen? I'm still doing my research to see what the deal with soy is.

As for soy lowering test. levels in males... A study done on with soy and male rhesus monkeys showed that soy did no affect on the reproductive hormones. There was no hormonal difference between males given soy protien and egg protien.

Drop your 2 cents here...

- Kaz

Maki Riddington
06-08-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by kazzy

As for soy lowering test. levels in males... A study done on with soy and male rhesus monkeys showed that soy did no affect on the reproductive hormones. There was no hormonal difference between males given soy protien and egg protien.

Drop your 2 cents here...

- Kaz

*** Many if not all of the studies that have been performed on soy and the reproductive system have been conducted on animals. So the verdict is still out. However as far as Testosterone and soy you may want to take a look at this one.

Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men.

Nagata C, Inaba S, Kawakami N, Kakizoe T, Shimizu H.

Department of Public Health, Gifu University School of Medicine, Japan.

The cross-sectional relationships of soy product intake and serum testosterone, estrone, estradiol, sex hormone-binding globulin, and dihydrotestosterone were examined in 69 Japanese men. Soy product intake was estimated from a semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire. Serum estradiol concentration was significantly inversely correlated with soy product intake (r = -0.32, p = 0.009), and serum estrone concentration was nonsignificantly inversely correlated with soy product intake (r = -0.24, p = 0.05) after controlling for age, body mass index, smoking status, and ethanol intake. Total and free testosterone concentrations were inversely correlated with soy product intake after controlling for the covariates, but these correlations were of border line significance (r = -0.25, p = 0.05 and r = -0.25, p = 0.06, respectively). Similar correlations were observed for these hormones with isoflavone intake from soy products. The data suggest that soy product intake may be associated with the endogenous hormone levels in Japanese men.

Keep in mind that this is only one study. However, it should keep your mind open to the possibility that Soy may not be a satisfactory protein supplement for someone trying to gain
muscle.


EDIT: Try doing a search on these two isoflavins, "genistein" and "daidzein." These are supposedly the two bad guys.

GhettoSmurf
06-08-2003, 01:49 PM
hmmmm soy hot dogs.... sounds.... good....


..but i think ill stick to REAL chicken ;)

pruneman
06-08-2003, 02:14 PM
I'm not sure about the effects soy has on androgen levels, particularly estrogen, but soy is the only complete protein source from anything non-meat. It is also lowfat and high in fiber. I can't imagine that eating soy would cause you any major probs, especially if you don't over-do it. Variety is very important in any diet, and IMO, i would think that a little soy would do more good than harm.

-Prune

Ti1301
06-10-2003, 02:34 AM
did you also note the research that soy had been shown to promote muscle growth in both men and women?
And look at the Ohio state study on whey vs soy?
Soy wins thumbs up.

rick
08-23-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by GhettoSmurf
hmmmm soy hot dogs.... sounds.... good....


..but i think ill stick to REAL chicken ;)

I just had a "Yves Good Dog" soy hot dog. I was surprised how much it tasted like a regular hot dog.

I've seen some soy protein shakes advertised. How do these compare with whey and casein protein? Do they digest more like whey, or casein? Any other advantages/disadvantages?

Any information is very much appreciated.

Spartacus
08-23-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Ti1301
did you also note the research that soy had been shown to promote muscle growth in both men and women?

do you have the link for that study?

bradley
08-24-2003, 04:55 AM
Effect of protein source on resistive-training-induced changes in body composition and muscle size in older men.

Haub MD, Wells AM, Tarnopolsky MA, Campbell WW.

Department of Human Nutrition, Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS 66506, USA. haub@humec.ksu.edu

BACKGROUND: Aging is associated with reductions in muscle mass and strength, but nutrition and exercise interventions can delay this progression and enhance the quality of life. OBJECTIVE: We examined whether the predominant source of protein consumed by older men influenced measures of muscle size and strength, body composition, resting energy expenditure, and skeletal muscle creatine concentrations in response to 12 wk of resistive training. DESIGN: After consuming a lactoovovegetarian (LOV) diet for 2 wk, 21 men aged 65 +/- 5 y were randomly assigned to either consume a beef-containing (BC) diet (n = 10) or to continue the LOV diet (n = 11) throughout resistive training. The BC diet included 0.6 g protein. kg(-1). d(-1) from beef and the LOV diet included 0.6 g protein. kg(-1). d(-1) from textured vegetable protein (soy) sources. The remaining protein in the diets came from self-selected LOV sources. RESULTS: The mean total protein intake for both groups ranged from 1.03 to 1.17 g. kg(-1). d(-1) during the intervention. Men in both groups had improvements (14-38%) in maximal dynamic strength of all the muscle groups trained with no significant difference between groups. With resistive training, cross-sectional muscle area of the vastus lateralis increased in both groups (4.2 +/- 3.0% and 6.0 +/- 2.6% for the LOV and BC groups, respectively) with no significant difference between groups. Body composition, resting energy expenditure, and concentrations of muscle creatine, phosphocreatine, and total creatine did not differ significantly between groups or change over time. CONCLUSIONS: These data suggest that increases in muscle strength and size were not influenced by the predominant source of protein consumed by older men with adequate total protein intake.
---------------

bradley
08-24-2003, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by rick

I've seen some soy protein shakes advertised. How do these compare with whey and casein protein? Do they digest more like whey, or casein? Any other advantages/disadvantages?

Any information is very much appreciated.

From what I have read whey would still digest faster than soy, but casein is would still be slower digesting than soy.

Here is an article that Will Brink wrote on soy protein which contains some good info.
http://www.brinkzone.com/soy.html

You can also run a search on soy protein and find a lot of information that you might find helpful.:)

hemants
08-25-2003, 11:42 AM
From the japan study:

"Total and free testosterone concentrations were inversely correlated with soy product intake after controlling for the covariates, but these correlations were of border line significance"

Combine that with the fact that 10lbs of excess body fat produces enough to fill all the estrogen receptors in most men I wouldn't worry about it.

I wouldn't make soy (or anything else for that matter) my ONLY source of protein. But it's definately part of it.

And without a doubt, I'd pick a soy dog over a "lips, hooves, and assholes" dog any day :)

Scott S
08-26-2003, 04:18 PM
Body fat produces estrogen? Is that right?

I've yet to be wowed by any soy meat substitute, but like to try them every so often, when a new one comes out. (I found Tofu Pups to have about 90% less taste. Uuckkk.)

bradley
08-26-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Scott S
Body fat produces estrogen? Is that right?

The conversion of testosterone to estrogen occurs mainly in the fat cells, so this could cause an increase in estrogen. The increase in estrogen coudl further promote the accumalation of bodyfat.

Scott S
08-26-2003, 04:45 PM
Fascinating. Yet another good reason for me to cut. :angel:

kazzy
08-26-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by bradley


The conversion of testosterone to estrogen occurs mainly in the fat cells, so this could cause an increase in estrogen. The increase in estrogen coudl further promote the accumalation of bodyfat.

kinda like an endless cycle?

rick
08-26-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by bradley


From what I have read whey would still digest faster than soy, but casein is would still be slower digesting than soy.

Here is an article that Will Brink wrote on soy protein which contains some good info.
http://www.brinkzone.com/soy.html

You can also run a search on soy protein and find a lot of information that you might find helpful.:)

It's people like you that make this site great. I've been lurking here for the past two weeks, and I've learned a lot from many of you.

Thanks

bradley
08-27-2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by rick


It's people like you that make this site great. I've been lurking here for the past two weeks, and I've learned a lot from many of you.

Thanks

Thanks for the compliment, and welcome to WBB.:)

There is a wealth of information on WBB, and I think it is safe to say that most members will be happy to share any information they have on various topics.

Scott S
08-27-2003, 12:29 PM
Another question about bodyfat: since fat cells for the most part just shrink when you lose fat (right?), do they still convert test to estrogen when you are lean? Or does it have to do with the amount of fat being stored in those cells?

Thanks.

hemants
08-27-2003, 01:26 PM
Definately related to the amount of fat in them.

Many female distance runners do not ovluate for this reason ie. they have the cells but they are not "functioning"