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Scott S
06-09-2003, 08:52 AM
Or should I just keep track of what's coming from meat and dairy products as it's complete?

I realize I'm at risk for offending the vegan(s), but I'd just as soon keep track of what's actually helping me build muscle, if that's the case.

Thanks.

bradley
06-09-2003, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Scott S
Or should I just keep track of what's coming from meat and dairy products as it's complete?

I realize I'm at risk for offending the vegan(s), but I'd just as soon keep track of what's actually helping me build muscle, if that's the case.

Thanks.

I usually just try and get approximately 1g of protein per lb. of bw from complete sources. This is more out of convenience to make sure that I am getting in adequate protein. The proteins from vegetables are incomplete but when combined with other foods they will become complete proteins. It is just easier IMO to count protien from complete sources and let the small amount of protein I get from incomplete sources just be an added bonus so to speak.

aka23
06-09-2003, 11:14 AM
Lyle Mcdonald wrote a good article about proteins at http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/mcdonald/protein-01.htm . Here are some quotes:

"In the past, dietary proteins were classified as complete, meaning that all indispensable AAs were present ; or incomplete, meaning that one or more of the indispensable AAs was absent. However, with few exceptions (e.g. gelatin) every dietary protein contains all of the AAs in varying amounts. This means that the concept of 'complete' and 'incomplete' proteins is incorrect."

"In general, limiting AAs should be a non-issue unless an individual is consuming all of their protein from a single source, and only if that source is a poor quality protein to begin with. "

If you have a fairly balanced diet with a variety of protein sources, then I do not think you need to be too concerned with limiting amino acids and protein completeness issues. Studies of natural, amateur bodybuilders suggest that after you reach a certain point, additional protein will not help you build muscle. 1g per lb is likely to be above that point, even if you are counting non-animal sources.

TheGimp
06-09-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by aka23
"In general, limiting AAs should be a non-issue unless an individual is consuming all of their protein from a single source, and only if that source is a poor quality protein to begin with. "


:withstupi

If you're struggling to consume enough protein and treating it like bradley's bonus helps then by all means do so, but I don't think its necessary.

Then again I'm vegetarian so what do you expect me to say ;)

AlexBBbegginer
06-09-2003, 12:09 PM
as far as i see, vegeatble protein normally only misses 2 or so amino acids (theres 20 in a complete chain right?) so it has too many of some and too few if any of another...
Your body always stores amino acids that cant be used, so u can eat say 4 slices ww bread 1 meal, and eat a bag of mixed nuts 4-5 hours away. The missing AA's would join up and form complete chains.
This is the basics as i recall...(right?)

the only thing i dont understand is how u work out the protein consumed in grams.

if i eat..
4 slices ww toast (20g)
and 1 tin of beans (20g)

they are both incomplete proteins sources

so do i add 20 and 20

----------> 40g - protein consumed

or

is it 10 and 10

----------> 20g - since they combine


anyone know??

Scott S
06-09-2003, 12:10 PM
Thanks, guys. I never fail to consume enough protein (usually 150-180g/day and I'm 150 lbs); I was just curious if those from bread or vegetables mattered. Considering that I could go with as little as 120 g/day, I think I'm set!

bradley
06-09-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by AlexBBbegginer
(theres 20 in a complete chain right?)

Well there are 8 are essential amino acids and the rest can be manufactured by the body.



Your body always stores amino acids that cant be used, so u can eat say 4 slices ww bread 1 meal, and eat a bag of mixed nuts 4-5 hours away. The missing AA's would join up and form complete chains.
This is the basics as i recall...(right?)


Your body does have a free pool of AA but this pool is highly regulated and even during periods of starvation and overfeeding you will not see much difference in the amount of AAs in the pool. During overfeeding the excess protein will be oxidized by the liver and during stravation the AAs will come from muscle tissue.




the only thing i dont understand is how u work out the protein consumed in grams.

if i eat..
4 slices ww toast (20g)
and 1 tin of beans (20g)

they are both incomplete proteins sources

so do i add 20 and 20

----------> 40g - protein consumed



As far as I know you would still count that as 40g of protein, although I doubt that 4 slices of ww toast will come anywhere near 20g of protein.

I agree with the above posts in that if you are consuming a variety of protein sources you should not really worry about it.

AlexBBbegginer
06-09-2003, 04:05 PM
thick sliced wholewheat bread = 5.3 grams protein per slice

well mine is...

bradley
06-09-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by AlexBBbegginer
thick sliced wholewheat bread = 5.3 grams protein per slice

well mine is...

I was just going by this but you are right it could be if it was sliced thick, but that would be about double the protein listed in a 28g slice.

Bread, whole-wheat, commercially prepared (1slice 28g)
Water g 10.556
Energy kcal 68.880
Energy kj 288.120
Protein g 2.716
Total lipid (fat) g 1.176
Ash g 0.644
Carbohydrate, by difference g 12.908
Fiber, total dietary g 1.932

GhettoSmurf
06-09-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by AlexBBbegginer

they are both incomplete proteins sources

so do i add 20 and 20

----------> 40g - protein consumed

or

is it 10 and 10

----------> 20g - since they combine


anyone know??

i believe it would be 20 and 20. but you want to make sure they are complimentary proteins.

i believe breads and beans are though.

GirlyMan
06-10-2003, 11:53 AM
This might help figure out what to combine to make "complete" proteins:

rice & dried legumes
rice & sesame seeds
rice & soy beans
rice & peanuts
wheat & dried legumes
wheat & soy beans
wheat & peanuts
sesame seeds & dry beans
sesame seeds & soy beans
sesame seeds & peanuts
sunflower seeds & peanuts
maize & dried legumes

The biggies are peanuts (combine with anything but maize, which I can't even find in my grocery), rice, & wheat.

I get most of my protein from complete proteins. I also count my incomplete proteins towards my protein intake goal, however I try to plan my meals so I combined complete proteins at the same meal and not over the course of a day.

GhettoSmurf
06-10-2003, 12:21 PM
^^ yes, thats what i was talking about. thanks for posting that :)

aka23
06-10-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by AlexBBbegginer
as far as i see, vegeatble protein normally only misses 2 or so amino acids (theres 20 in a complete chain right?) so it has too many of some and too few if any of another...
Your body always stores amino acids that cant be used, so u can eat say 4 slices ww bread 1 meal, and eat a bag of mixed nuts 4-5 hours away. The missing AA's would join up and form complete chains.
This is the basics as i recall...(right?)

the only thing i dont understand is how u work out the protein consumed in grams.
...so do i add 20 and 20
----------> 40g - protein consumed
or
is it 10 and 10
----------> 20g - since they combine
anyone know??

Originally posted by GhettoSmurf
i believe it would be 20 and 20. but you want to make sure they are complimentary proteins.
i believe breads and beans are though.

There are ~20 amino acids in the protein of foods. 8-9 of these are essential, meaning that the body cannot manufacture them and they must be obtained from foods. Just about every food with protein contains all of these essential amino acids. However, the ratio of these amino acids is usually not exactly what the human body needs. Proteins in animal foods are usually closer to a human ideal than proteins in plant foods, so the body has fewer left over amino acids.

A person could still obtain all of their protein from a single "incomplete" plant product. This would just be an inefficient way of doing things. They would require extra protein, so that they received enough of the limiting amino acid. In grains, this limiting amino acid is usally lysine or isoleucine. In beans, this limiting amino acid is usually methionine. In vegetables, it is usually methionine or isoleucine. Animal products like beef and milk also have limiting amino acids, but these are usually ignored since they are closer to the ideal human profile.

Nutritionists sometimes encourage vegetarians who do not consume much protein to combine foods with different limiting amino acids, so that they can get by with less protein. A balanced diet should do this automatically since different food groups have different limiting amino acids. The body is quite good at storing limiting amino acids, so complimentary foods do not need to be eaten at the same meal, but they do need to be combined in the same day.

I think that none of the above should be a concern for people with a decent intake of protein (1g/lb) and a somewhat balanced diet. Essential amino acid requirements for humans are not very high, and most foods contain more than needed. I think complementary amino acids should only be a concern if you have a low protein or calorie intake and you have a poorly balanced diet (nearly all protein coming from a single "incomplete" source). This type of diet is common is some third world countries, but is uncommon for participants on this messageboard.

bradley
06-10-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by aka23
There are ~20 amino acids in the protein of foods. 8-9 of these are essential, meaning that the body cannot manufacture them and they must be obtained from foods.

I believe there are actually 10 essential 2 of which are only essential during growth (arginine and histidine).