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View Full Version : New Slooow Bulking diet...Guru's pls read



Khar
06-10-2003, 08:57 PM
Bulking - Slow

Meal one

6 egg whites and 1 yolk (or 1 cup egg beaters) cooked with spam
1/2 cup oats w/ 1 Tbsp natty pb
20 oz water

Monday/Wednesday/Friday WBB Routine 1

(Postworkout Shake: Isopure Packets until I run out then 1 scoop ON

whey mixed with 50 grams of malto/dextrose)
20 oz water

Meal Two

High Protien Bar(One of many different brands I have at the moment all

around 300 cals and 30g protien, once I have a more steady budget It

will be NitroTech bars)
20oz water

Meal Three

2 slices wwbread
1 can tuna
1 Tbsp Just2Good Low Fat Mayo
1 cup salad w/low cal dressing of some sort
20oz water

Meal Four

Same as Meal Two

Meal Five

~8oz chicken breast
2 cups assorted veggies
20oz water

Meal Six

PM Protien Shake(right now I'm just using my ON Whey at 2 scoops for

44g protien, but will be getting some PM protien when budget allows)

I know I need to squeeze in some EFA's in here somewhere, any tips would be greatly appreciated. Also I don't have an exact number as far as cals goes, but if somebody has an estimate let her rip. I used the Ministry of Fitness BMR calculator and it says my BMR is 1764.5, but with moderate activity you multiply that by 1.7 for what you burn during activities...I went with 1.6 and got 2823.2 as my final BMR. I am 5'8 at 155 lbs, 19 y/o male around 8-10% bf. My goal to attain and then maintain is around 165lbs at ~6% bf

Up until now I have an affliction with bulking as I used to be around 33% bf, and have a fear of getting fat again. I have hammered out my nutrition knowledge over the past 2 years and am eating a healthy maintaining/cutting diet right now, but I want to get really shredded ~6% bf, and have realized that the most effective way to do this is to bulk first...

GhettoSmurf
06-10-2003, 09:09 PM
looks pretty good. but maybe either have the whey before bed mixed with milk, or just have some cottage cheese.

also maybe try to get some more EFA's in there.

Manveet
06-10-2003, 09:14 PM
How many cals is that? Seems low, even for a slow bulk.

You can always throw in a couple tablespoons of olive oil to get the fat content up.

Khar
06-10-2003, 09:32 PM
Would it be a good idea to use skim milk as the fat is milk is saturated?

SquareHead
06-10-2003, 10:00 PM
Did you say spam?

Khar
06-10-2003, 10:09 PM
no...

NO2
06-10-2003, 10:10 PM
lol

bradley
06-11-2003, 03:53 AM
I think the best way to determine the amount of daily calories you should be consuming is to start out around maintenance and then slowly work your way up until you are gaining about .5lbs. per week. You stated that you already had a good maintenance diet in place so just start from that calorie level. Just add ~300 cals each week to your daily calorie intake. For example, if you are taking in 2500 cals per day and maintaining, then next week bump it up to 2800 cals and see what kind of results you get. From my experience the formulas are not very accurate, and should be used as a rough estimate at best.

The calories look a little low but if that is more than what you were eating then it is a good place to start IMO. You might want to get some additional omega 3 fatty acids in your diet, and the addition of a fish oil supplement would be an easy way to do that. As far as the PM protein I would just save my money and go with some cottage cheese before bed and maybe a tablespoon of pb. As GS suggested mix the whey with milk before bed to help slow down the digestion of the whey, and you could also add in some pb to help slow the absorption even more.


Would it be a good idea to use skim milk as the fat is milk is saturated?

Yes

GhettoSmurf
06-11-2003, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by SquareHead
Did you say spam?

im assuming it was a typo and he ment pam*?

SquareHead
06-11-2003, 11:10 AM
LOL ok fresh! I was really thinking Spam. Then I got all these flashbacks to my parents trying to get us kids excited over Spam night.
*shudder

Khar
06-11-2003, 06:57 PM
Oh ya sorry didn't realize that...I sure hope I'm not using spam to cook my eggs :)

drew
06-12-2003, 07:54 AM
"I DON'T LIKE SPAM!!!"
:spam:

spl_373
06-12-2003, 02:39 PM
hard to judge, I know I personally would lose weight on that diet. But see how it goes for yah.

One thing, is I would probably move the peanut butter around a bit, (not eat it with oatmeal). if you want to do a clean bulk I would try and keep all my meals protein carbs or protein fats. When bulking I still like to move most my protein-fat meals towards the end of the day. Also, in general I dont think you are getting enough fat at all to bulk properly, I would say good fats are more important than carbs when bulking. Add some flax or some omega oil etc into your diet and you will be set.

What I would do is take out the the shake for meal 8 and have 1 cup of cottage cheese, with 2 tablespoons of flax.

spl_373
06-12-2003, 02:42 PM
oops, looks like bradley already suggested pretty much the same thing as me.

bradley
06-12-2003, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by spl_373
One thing, is I would probably move the peanut butter around a bit, (not eat it with oatmeal). if you want to do a clean bulk I would try and keep all my meals protein carbs or protein fats.

There is no reason to separate carbs and fat. Fat can be stored without the presence of insulin.



When bulking I still like to move most my protein-fat meals towards the end of the day.

Why is that?

WestyHeadbanger
06-12-2003, 09:58 PM
Actually that diet looks good. But replace the spam with something else for gods sake. :shoot: :spam:

spl_373
06-14-2003, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by bradley


There is no reason to separate carbs and fat. Fat can be stored without the presence of insulin.



Why is that?

because from personal experience, experience of many of my peers. I stay much leaner keeping all my meals either protein/fat, or protein carbs, not combining fats and carbs. Yes, fat can be stored without the presence of insulin, but the presence of insulin will create an environment more likely for fat storage. When eating fats and protein solo, the fat will be used as the energy source not stored as fat. When you create an insulin spike while consuming fat, it is much more likely that not all the fat will be utilized by your body, and will therefor be stored as fat.

I have found that planning my meals this way I can eat relatively high fat, high carb diet (Therefor high cals (bulking)) and keep much leaner than if I combine the two.

PeterParker
06-14-2003, 01:37 AM
I JUST LOVE:spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :spam: :nod: :nod:

spl_373
06-14-2003, 01:54 AM
if necessary I can post a more scientific response as to why fat in the presence of carbs creates an environment more suited for fat storage. Considering my post was a grossly simplistic. I just didnt feel like going into it.

bradley
06-14-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by spl_373


because from personal experience, experience of many of my peers. I stay much leaner keeping all my meals either protein/fat, or protein carbs, not combining fats and carbs. Yes, fat can be stored without the presence of insulin, but the presence of insulin will create an environment more likely for fat storage. When eating fats and protein solo, the fat will be used as the energy source not stored as fat. When you create an insulin spike while consuming fat, it is much more likely that not all the fat will be utilized by your body, and will therefor be stored as fat.

I have found that planning my meals this way I can eat relatively high fat, high carb diet (Therefor high cals (bulking)) and keep much leaner than if I combine the two.

I am just saying that it only takes a small amount of insulin to inhibit fat burning a promote fat storate, and protein will cause enough insulin release for this to happen. Fat also can promote fat storage on its own through the actions of acylation stimulation protein. With this in mind, the conclusion that you can eat a high protein/high fat meal without gaining fat is just not going to happen.

I agree that you should keep fat low during periods of overfeeding, for example refeeds, but other than that it is going to come down to the amount of calories consumed.

bradley
06-14-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by spl_373
if necessary I can post a more scientific response as to why fat in the presence of carbs creates an environment more suited for fat storage. Considering my post was a grossly simplistic. I just didnt feel like going into it.

I am not disputing the lipogenic/anti-lipolytic effects of insulin.

spl_373
06-14-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by bradley


I agree that you should keep fat low during periods of overfeeding, for example refeeds, but other than that it is going to come down to the amount of calories consumed.


ok, I understand where you are coming from. But in this case we are talking about someone who is going to be "overfeeding". Even if it is a slow bulk. I guess really, its just going to come down to a matter of opinion. In my last 2 meals combined I have between 5 and 10grams of carbs, and I feel as though the insulin response to 5-10grams of carbs spread over 3 hours or so isnt going to be enough to promote fat storage.

And I didnt answer the other part of your question. The reason I have most my protein fat meals towards the end of the day is for two reasons.

1- it makes it easier to prevent overlap between fats and carbs (which I stated earlier I like to do)

2- it helps slow down the digestion of the protein before going to sleep. Cottage Cheese and some good fats is optimal bedtime meal IMO.

spl_373
06-14-2003, 02:51 PM
also, when trying to gain muscle mass, I dont think its a good idea to limit the amount of fat too much, as I'm sure your aware of all the benefits of fat consumption. For this reason alone I think you have to try and find any way you can to limit the amount of fat storage while keeping fat intake moderate.

bradley
06-14-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by spl_373
ok, I understand where you are coming from. But in this case we are talking about someone who is going to be "overfeeding". Even if it is a slow bulk. I guess really, its just going to come down to a matter of opinion.

I am still going to say that the food combining is just theory and has no real application to everyday dieting. During refeeding it will be more important becaues you would be taking in 300+ grams of carbs, but for the average meal it is not going to make that much difference.



In my last 2 meals combined I have between 5 and 10grams of carbs, and I feel as though the insulin response to 5-10grams of carbs spread over 3 hours or so isnt going to be enough to promote fat storage.

Like I said in my other post insulin is not necessary for fat to get stored and protein itself can cause enough of an insulin response to promote fat storage and halt fat burning. Calorie balance at the end of the day is what is important, not food combinations. Do you have any evidence that would support your theory? If you gave two individuals of the exact same bw and bf% the same amount of calories and the same types of food, but gave it to them in different combinations that the amount of weight gained would be any different?



2- it helps slow down the digestion of the protein before going to sleep. Cottage Cheese and some good fats is optimal bedtime meal IMO.

I agree with this statement. I though you were going in to the whole "carbs early in the day so they could be burned off" idea.:D

spl_373
06-14-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by bradley


Like I said in my other post insulin is not necessary for fat to get stored and protein itself can cause enough of an insulin response to promote fat storage and halt fat burning. Calorie balance at the end of the day is what is important, not food combinations. Do you have any evidence that would support your theory? If you gave two individuals of the exact same bw and bf% the same amount of calories and the same types of food, but gave it to them in different combinations that the amount of weight gained would be any different?



nope, no personal studies...just experience from logging diet/fat/muscle gain etc. Although I have read scientific journals supporting my theory, but that even doesnt say much. Since you could probably find some supporting the latter. Yes like you said, insulin greatly supresses fat oxidation, and to me it just make sense then to not combine the two. Yes fat can be stored without the presence of insulin, but some can at least be oxidized.



Originally posted by bradley

I agree with this statement. I though you were going in to the whole "carbs early in the day so they could be burned off" idea.:D

great we agree :) hehe. Actually although I'm still stubborn on the fat/carb thing. That statement of mine could use some refrasing as I dont think its bad to consume fat earlier in the day, just not with carbs. In fact, I have read studies where some strength athletes have performed better, consuming fat/protein meals instead of carb/protein meals preworkout.

bradley
06-14-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by spl_373


nope, no personal studies...just experience from logging diet/fat/muscle gain etc. Although I have read scientific journals supporting my theory, but that even doesnt say much. Since you could probably find some supporting the latter. Yes like you said, insulin greatly supresses fat oxidation, and to me it just make sense then to not combine the two. Yes fat can be stored without the presence of insulin, but some can at least be oxidized.

Though you might like this:)

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2129404993d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3C577CB7.3CE3749F%40onr.com

spl_373
06-14-2003, 03:44 PM
now were getting into the land of conflicting info :S

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/qa/gof/gof_mar2001.htm

this guy is highly reputable and does most of his own research.

bradley
06-14-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by spl_373
now were getting into the land of conflicting info :S

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/qa/gof/gof_mar2001.htm

this guy is highly reputable and does most of his own research.

I am well aware of his food combining theories, but I am also aware that his theory has no real studies backing it up. The thread I posted about ASP proves that you do not need insulin for fat storage which is what Berardi's whole argument is centered around (the control of insulin through diet). If it was as simple as he puts people would be able to build muscle and lose fat at the same time.

The main thing it boils down to is calories. Would you argue that someone who is following a keto diet (<20g carbs per day) would not gain as much fat as someone following a more balanced diet if they were both consuming the same amount of calories?

Here is more about ASP.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=3E56B341.D99D341E%40onr.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26q%3DLyle%2B%252B%2BASP%2B%252B%2BLPL%26meta%3Dgroup%253Dmisc.fitness.weights

spl_373
06-15-2003, 12:20 AM
I realise that fat can be stored without the presence of insulin, I am not denying that. However, when insulin/carbs are not present some of the fat will be oxidised and used as energy. There is no way that when no carbs are present (or very very few) that at least some fat will be used for energy when consumed. This is not the case when combined with carbs. Insulin increases lipogenesis causing any fat consumed to be stored as just that. Fat. Insulin will of course also inhibit carnitine palmitate transferase-I, which is the means by which fatty acids are moved into the mitochondria for oxidation. To top it off many fats can be insulin potentiators, creating more of an insulin repsonse then desired.


When consuming fat and protein. No carbs.....FAT because the primary energy source. Therefor, much less fat will be stored as energy as when eating with carbs. When eating fats along with carbs. Fat pretty much has no choice but to be stored as fat. How can we prevent this? lower fat intake. But I'm not about to eat minimal amounts of healthy fats.

I dont think it just comes down to calories in vs calories out. I refuse to think its that simple. To some extent yes, but for optimal gains with minimal fat gain, no. I know from experience that with number of cals constant, training patterns constant, sleep patterns constant, that changing the timing of my meals (ike carbs and fat) and ratios can make a huge differance in a short amount of time. Too much to be sluft off as coincidence.

spl_373
06-15-2003, 01:04 AM
well, in both those articles he keeps bringing up "acylation stimulating protein", which can store fat without the presence of insulin, and that is basically the basis behind his arguments. I however, am not denying the fact that it can be stored as fat without insulin. I'm just saying that it is less OPTIMAL to eat fats with carbs since it CAN NOT be burned as energy. Fat will be used as an energy source well before protein, I dont think anyone will deny that. I dont see anywhere in his article where he says that all the fat consumed when no insulin is present is stored as fat. However, with insulin, it is pretty much all stored as fat. Therefor this must mean that you can consume at least some more carbs with less fat storage. So I ask the question...how then can it not matter?

bradley
06-15-2003, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by spl_373
However, when insulin/carbs are not present some of the fat will be oxidised and used as energy. There is no way that when no carbs are present (or very very few) that at least some fat will be used for energy when consumed. This is not the case when combined with carbs. Insulin increases lipogenesis causing any fat consumed to be stored as just that. Fat.

I just don't think it is that simple. Sure if you eat protein and fat meals some of the fat will be used for energy, but if you eat too many cals you will gain bf. What about the fact that protein alone can cause enough of an insulin response to halt lipolysis and promote fat storage?



When consuming fat and protein. No carbs.....FAT because the primary energy source. Therefor, much less fat will be stored as energy as when eating with carbs. When eating fats along with carbs. Fat pretty much has no choice but to be stored as fat. How can we prevent this? lower fat intake. But I'm not about to eat minimal amounts of healthy fats.

Sure the fat would be stored if you were eating massive amounts of carbs and fat, but then again if you eat massive amounts of protein and fat you will be storing fat as well.



I dont think it just comes down to calories in vs calories out. I refuse to think its that simple. To some extent yes, but for optimal gains with minimal fat gain, no. I know from experience that with number of cals constant, training patterns constant, sleep patterns constant, that changing the timing of my meals (ike carbs and fat) and ratios can make a huge differance in a short amount of time. Too much to be sluft off as coincidence.

If it was as simple as Berardi makes it out to be we could all just perform a TKD and not have to worry about fat gain. The body is a lot smarter than you give it credit for.

There is nothing that would indicate following a balanced diet with mixed meals will yield different results, then that of a diet consisting of the same amount of calories but with carbs and fat seperated.

http://groups.google.com.au/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3BB0D324.6A132EB9%40onr.com&rnum=62

bradley
06-15-2003, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by spl_373
I dont see anywhere in his article where he says that all the fat consumed when no insulin is present is stored as fat. However, with insulin, it is pretty much all stored as fat. Therefor this must mean that you can consume at least some more carbs with less fat storage. So I ask the question...how then can it not matter?

He does state that protein alone is enough to elicit an insulin repsonse which would halt lipolysis and promote fat storage:)

spl_373
06-15-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by bradley


Sure the fat would be stored if you were eating massive amounts of carbs and fat, but then again if you eat massive amounts of protein and fat you will be storing fat as well.



thats the thing....fat will be stored even if you are not consuming large amounts of protein fat and carbs. Not just when your consuming massive amounts. Any significant amount of carbs will cause all fat consumed to be stored as fat.

And yes you are right, if you eat massive amounts of protein and fat you will be storing fat, but any bodybuilder should no not to consume massive portions. My fat meals usually consist of a can of cottage cheese and a tablespoon of flax, or some cottage cheese and a tablespoon of peanut butter, something along those lines, I'm not talking massive meals.

bradley
06-16-2003, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by spl_373


thats the thing....fat will be stored even if you are not consuming large amounts of protein fat and carbs. Not just when your consuming massive amounts. Any significant amount of carbs will cause all fat consumed to be stored as fat.

And yes you are right, if you eat massive amounts of protein and fat you will be storing fat, but any bodybuilder should no not to consume massive portions. My fat meals usually consist of a can of cottage cheese and a tablespoon of flax, or some cottage cheese and a tablespoon of peanut butter, something along those lines, I'm not talking massive meals.

If you eat too many cals you gain bf. I have yet to see anything that would lead me to believe that combining a tablespoon of flax/pb with carbs is going to result in a significant difference in bf gains than combining flax/pb and protein.

Your body is going to be the main determining factor as far as LBM and fat gain is concerned, not the fact that you combine certain foods. Like I said if what Berardi was saying was true everyone would be bulking using a TKD diet. Training, of course, will help in improving the ratio of LBM to bf gained when bulking, but I still have not seen any proof that food combing makes any difference in the long run.