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Ferry Costen
06-12-2003, 04:36 PM
First off, I'm on a cut. So when I hear the word carb I go hide under the couch.

That said, why must I intake carbs post workout (I notice some of you do it during workout too). I normally drink a protein shake (20grams protein ..whey). Then eat a normal meal or a can of tuna an hour later. Is this sufficient?

This thread was inspired from ghetto smurf's post under Supplements.

YellowJacket
06-12-2003, 04:37 PM
To replace muscle glycogen.... thats the primary reason.

Ferry Costen
06-12-2003, 04:50 PM
which i presume has to do with muscle recovery :bang:
im never gonna get things right!

SoulOfKoRea
06-12-2003, 05:54 PM
it also lets the body absorb nutrients better, or something like that :confused:

Ferry Costen
06-12-2003, 06:05 PM
whats a good and EASY source of carbs post workout?

gopher
06-12-2003, 06:19 PM
When I'm cutting I stay away from the post workout carbs. The insulin spike caused by carbs brings fat buring to a grinding halt. Contrary to what many will tell you, a 60 - 90 minute workout will not completly deplete you of muscle glycogen and it is not neccessary to keep your glycogen stores full when you are trying to cut. Lots of glycogen = very little fat burning.

YellowJacket
06-12-2003, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Ferry Costen
whats a good and EASY source of carbs post workout?

Dextrose/Maltodextrin or oatmeal.

AJ_11
06-12-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by gopher
When I'm cutting I stay away from the post workout carbs. The insulin spike caused by carbs brings fat buring to a grinding halt. Contrary to what many will tell you, a 60 - 90 minute workout will not completly deplete you of muscle glycogen and it is not neccessary to keep your glycogen stores full when you are trying to cut. Lots of glycogen = very little fat burning.

True, but it really comes to cals in vs. cals out. You are right that insulin brings fat burning to a halt. But it also stops cortisal levels from rising. If you eat whey post workout there is a slight chance that it may be used as energy father than repair and building.

I went both routes and have not noticed any difference in fatloss. Protein has the ability to spike your insulin just like carbs(especially whey) I prefer some oatmeal or a sweet potatoe around workout time, the rest of the day I eat veggies and good sources of fat.

GhettoSmurf
06-12-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by gopher
When I'm cutting I stay away from the post workout carbs. The insulin spike caused by carbs brings fat buring to a grinding halt. Contrary to what many will tell you, a 60 - 90 minute workout will not completly deplete you of muscle glycogen and it is not neccessary to keep your glycogen stores full when you are trying to cut. Lots of glycogen = very little fat burning.

i wouldnt stay away from carbs after a workout just becuase your cutting. i think you should still have carbs, maybe just a smaller amount.

GhettoSmurf
06-12-2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by YellowJacket


Dextrose/Maltodextrin or oatmeal. i agree on the dextrose/maltodextrine. but i still wouldnt use the oatmeal (but i dont want to start another thread between which is better)

so w/e you feel would work best 4 u

Scott S
06-12-2003, 08:40 PM
While it's true that an insulin spike halts lipolysis, your muscles NEED at least some glucose. If you don't take in sugar post-workout, your body will turn the protein into glucose instead and perhaps even catabolize some muscle for glucose.. Not a good deal as I see it.

gopher
06-13-2003, 06:04 PM
While it's true that an insulin spike halts lipolysis, your muscles NEED at least some glucose.
This is a myth that is pushed by the supplement companies. Even after an intense workout you still have glycogen stored in your muscles. If you are cutting I feel it is better to take in some whey protein with a very small amount of fibrous carbs (4 or 5 strawberries work very well) and some fat high in EFAs such as flaxseed oil. This will allow you to send much needed amminos to your muscles while remaining in lipolysis.
I have tried cutting many different ways over the years and this is what works best for me. By using BCAAs before and during training and sticking to a low carb, moderate fat, high protein diet with 2 carb up meals per week I find that I can hold on to more lean mass while dropping BF. I was very skeptical when this approach was first recommended to me but after I finally gave in and tried it I ended up kicking myself for not trying it sooner.
Whatever, just a suggestion.

LAM
06-13-2003, 07:45 PM
soluble fiber slows the modulation of aminos acids into the portal bloodstream. you definetly don't want to ingest fiber or fats post workout.

the best reasons to use sugars like dextrose and maltodextrin are:

* shut down cortisol/catabolism
* jump start anabolic activity - insulin
increases protein synthesis greater with protien than if protein is ingested alone
* replenish muscle glycogen

YellowJacket
06-13-2003, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by GhettoSmurf
i agree on the dextrose/maltodextrine. but i still wouldnt use the oatmeal (but i dont want to start another thread between which is better)

so w/e you feel would work best 4 u

Many people, including myself for the longest time, failed to see the logic behind it, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt and tried it and wouldnt have it any other way.

AJ_11
06-14-2003, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by gopher

This is a myth that is pushed by the supplement companies. Even after an intense workout you still have glycogen stored in your muscles. If you are cutting I feel it is better to take in some whey protein with a very small amount of fibrous carbs (4 or 5 strawberries work very well) and some fat high in EFAs such as flaxseed oil. This will allow you to send much needed amminos to your muscles while remaining in lipolysis.
I have tried cutting many different ways over the years and this is what works best for me. By using BCAAs before and during training and sticking to a low carb, moderate fat, high protein diet with 2 carb up meals per week I find that I can hold on to more lean mass while dropping BF. I was very skeptical when this approach was first recommended to me but after I finally gave in and tried it I ended up kicking myself for not trying it sooner.
Whatever, just a suggestion.

After an intense workout your body uses the CHO sources more efficiently. Why not take full advantage of this oppertunity by intaking some carbs.

While I tend to agree with you with some of your points. And following your diet seems very logical the rest of the day, but the amt. of fat burning that is going to take place post workout compared to the possibility of protein synthesis being impared slightly isn't worth it too me. I also don't want to spend the money on BCAA. Really if you are in a cal deficient it really won't make that much of a difference at the end of the day.

Although on that note, I have been thinking about scraping the post workout shake myself and using a pre workout shake consisting of oats or sweet potatoe. But I am still skeptical of this as well.

Restless I am not disagreeing with you, diet manipulation to obtain optimal results is difficult I am finding and it really does boils down to what works for you not a study done on some rats or even groups of people. But sometimes through trail and error results may not always be in ones favor. As you said that this is working in your favor. In my case I still have yet to find that magic plan myself.

Just my $0.02.

Silverback
06-14-2003, 02:16 AM
why be scared of carbs? carbs are good :) I can't understand why the majority has gone carb phobic, in the 80's early 90's everyone was fat phobic. Now its swung to carbs, imo its just a phase for guys like mr Atkins to make some money.

The best diet incorporates everything in moderation, alright there is no need to eat processed food, but slow digesting like oatmeal, boiled potatoes and veggies are superb. And like LAM said post workout is a vital time to take in sugars.

B-R

gopher
06-14-2003, 08:20 AM
I am not afraid of carbs. I eat quite a few of them when I am gaining and I have 2 fairly large carb up meals per week when I am cutting. I'm just sharing what has been the most effective method of cutting for me . The fewer calories in than calories out method works just fine for the average joe trying to lose a few lbs. However, if you are a BBer trying to shed BF while maintaining all of your hard earned muscle it gets a little more complicated than that if you want to see optimal results. There is not one diet that will meet everyones goals. Everyone needs to experiment and find what works best for them.

fuzz
10-23-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by LAM
the best reasons to use sugars like dextrose and maltodextrin are:

* shut down cortisol/catabolism
* jump start anabolic activity - insulin
increases protein synthesis greater with protien than if protein is ingested alone
* replenish muscle glycogen

Bump on an old thread. Any have any studies to support the second point? That protein + carbs = better protein synthesis then protein alone?

Holto
10-23-2003, 01:32 PM
it shouldn't take much research to find a study like that

highwire.stanford.edu

& as was mentioned taking protein alone will be converted to glucose

you can't have significant protein synthesis while your amino acid pool is depleted

bradley
10-23-2003, 01:36 PM
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55. Related Articles, Links


Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise.

Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.

Dairy Management, Inc, Rosemont, IL, USA.

PURPOSE: This study was designed to assess the independent and combined effects of a dose of amino acids (approximately 6 g) and/or carbohydrate (approximately 35 g) consumed at 1 and 2 h after resistance exercise on muscle protein metabolism. METHODS: Following initiation of a primed constant infusion of H -phenylalanine and N-urea, volunteers performed leg resistance exercise and then ingested one of three drinks (amino acids (AA), carbohydrate (CHO), or AA and CHO (MIX)) at 1- and 2-h postexercise.(5) RESULTS: Total net uptake of phenylalanine across the leg over 3 h was greatest in response to MIX and least in CHO. The individual values for CHO, MIX, and AA were 53 +/- 6, 114 +/- 38, and 71 +/- 13 mg x leg x 3h. Stimulation of net uptake in MIX was due to increased muscle protein synthesis. CONCLUSIONS: These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the independent effects of either given alone. The individual effects of carbohydrate and amino acids are likely dependent on the amount of each that is ingested. Further, prior intake of amino acids and carbohydrate does not diminish the metabolic response to a second comparable dose ingested 1h later.

hemants
10-24-2003, 08:05 AM
Toss a couple of tablespoons of aunt jemima syrup in your whey shake and be done with it. (it's primarily glucose)

Saint Patrick
10-26-2003, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by hemants
Toss a couple of tablespoons of aunt jemima syrup in your whey shake and be done with it. (it's primarily glucose)

Dude I hope you're kidding.

defcon
10-26-2003, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Big-Ron
why be scared of carbs? carbs are good :) I can't understand why the majority has gone carb phobic, in the 80's early 90's everyone was fat phobic. Now its swung to carbs, imo its just a phase for guys like mr Atkins to make some money.

The best diet incorporates everything in moderation, alright there is no need to eat processed food, but slow digesting like oatmeal, boiled potatoes and veggies are superb. And like LAM said post workout is a vital time to take in sugars.

B-R


BUMP.